8 ms·

Fantastic. As a NZ expat currently resident in London it's depressing the way global market conditions have sent house prices skyrocketing in the places I'd li

Fantastic. As a NZ expat currently resident in London it's depressing the way global market conditions have sent house prices skyrocketing in the places I'd like to live. My partner and I are doing well here, and we plan to go back to NZ one day, but in just 6 years since my partner's brother was here what we'd go back to has changed immeasurably. He and his partner managed to come over here when the pound was worth $3 NZD, rent was cheaper, save well and move back to Auckland when houses were depressed (2009-2010). Since then they rode the wave and now have a beautiful home with a view straight down the Waitemata harbour. My partner and I? We came here when the pound was at $2.10ish, not so bad I thought, not as good, but y'know, we make good money, we can deal with it. Then BREXIT. BOOM. Now the pound is $1.70, our salaries are, of course, still the same. Also a shithole house in Auckland in a bad suburb now costs at least $700k NZD - the first house that my partner's brother bought cost $650k NZD, in a nice suburb on transport links. The world is mad.

pyre 10y ago
The fact that you're talking about $650k - $700k being in your price range means that you're doing better than a lot of people.
- Ductapemaster 10y ago
  While it may be true that the OP is "doing well" salary wise, your comment detracts from the point he is making. just because someone makes a lot of money doesn't mean that their problems are any less valid.
  - yequalsx 10y ago
    I think it is more OP calling the world mad when $6000,000NZ is the price range for a "decent" house. Heck, even the ability to move to another country is luxury enough. The 1% calling crazy what the 0.1% do is laughable to most I presume. I'm in the 1% so I'm not sure how the 80% really view such comments but I imagine it's farcical to them.
    - AvenueIngres 10y ago
      OP is upper middle class, at best. Let's not use rethoric that would only apply to people that are actually considerably wealthy regardless of the comparative entity you choose to rank them against i.e billionaires and millionaires. A couple trying to buy a nice house with their combined salaries isn't insane. In particular when that is the norm they were used to and who is slowly disintegrating.
      - yequalsx 10y ago
        In terms of purchasing power for the world they are not upper middle class. They are in the higher eschalons in terms of wealth and economic means. I don't decry their plight but rather seek to put context to it. People in their income bracket have driven up land and housing prices in Belize, Costa Rica, Panama, Thailand, and elsewhere. That didn't make the world crazy in their eyes but having prices driven up in Auckland did. That perspective is crazy.
      - hexane360 10y ago
        http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/16/are-you-in-the-global-middle-class-find-out-with-our-income-calculator/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/16/are-you-in-t... $80,000 USD for 4 people is "High Income" globally.
    - te_chris 10y ago
      600k NZD is mad, in my life experience. It's a crazy amount of money compared to average incomes in NZ - especially for a house that likely needs work.
  - akvadrako 10y ago
    Of course it does. People with money have options - they have no excuses for not being comfortable with their life. The poor guy can only choose among a few places on earth to live, needs to work a lot and will have a hard time surviving otherwise. This complaining guy can live basically anywhere or could have been living at the level of the poor guy and retire after a few years of earning his 99th percentile income. I just can't fathom the mindset of people who think they deserve to live a high society lifestyle. Their position is FAPP strictly better than 99% of people currently alive on Earth.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Standard of living is relative but largely local/regional. Saying that everyone in NZ has it made because they should just be happy they weren't born in Bangladesh or something is incredibly short-sighted.
      - Nydhal 10y ago
        Thinking on a global scale is the literal opposite of short-sightedness.
- pinot 10y ago
  Those are median prices in the area.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  It seems explicit that $650k is not in the poster's price range, but they offer those valuations as examples of the lower end or nicer housing options available.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- AvenueIngres 10y ago
  Is that the metric you want to choose to decide how happy you should be about a given situation? Comparative performance with people in the same demographic and income range seems a lot better. Otherwise you can pretty argue ad absurdum that yeah, you aren't starving, you aren't dead so everything is good! R-r...right?
  - tudorw 10y ago
    well, the reality is that level of optimism is required for the 800 million people living on a dollar a day, and if they can do it then perhaps those more fortunate could learn something there, as the Somalian I met said, 'nobody promised me tomorrow', or the popular 'yesterday was better than today, and today will be better than tomorrow'...
    - AvenueIngres 10y ago
      Oh please, I am barely holding back my tears. Is that unreasonable for people to improve their living conditions and be disappointed when those don't even match the ones of their parents? Or should they just accept the extreme poverty threshold as the sole upper bound required to be content about their lives.
      - hueving 10y ago
        Ok, if you go that route, don't complain about rich people wanting more and more. They are just "improving their living conditions".
        AvenueIngres 10y ago
        >don't complain about rich people wanting more and more. I don't. That's the basic human thing to do and harnessing that greed has lifted billions of people out of poverty.
        hueving 10y ago
- gthtjtkt 10y ago
  He didn't say that's his price range, he said those are the prices. Big difference.
- jly 10y ago
  The median home price in Auckland is > NZ$1M. He is saying a house he would refuse to buy costs $700k. Unfortunately for those in many industries, Auckland is one of the few viable options for those that want to live in New Zealand and have access to a good job market. It has effectively priced out many from owning a home, even those earning a good income.
flog 10y ago
To give more context for non-Kiwi's: New Zealanders have traditionally valued houses above all else, treating them as their retirement plans. We don't have capital gains tax or stamp duty, so house flipping has been a valuable side-business for many.
- te_chris 10y ago
  This, kind of. Though it's not just NZ, a majority in the U.K. aspires to home ownership as well, from what I can observe.
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  It's great to offer context, but you should realize that this isn't some neutral interesting fact. It's a direct contributor to the problem. When large numbers of politically powerful middle and upper class voters make plans dependent on their home prices growing faster than the rate of general inflation politicians figure out a way to make that happen. Homes can't be both affordable and a great investment for very long, the two goals are in direct opposition.
knz 10y ago
I'm also an expat kiwi (in the US) and definitely agree re the shift about 5-6 years ago. It's not just the house prices it's also the potential salary. Higher housing costs (and you get a lot less for that money in NZ) and lower wages isn't ideal when contemplating the move back.
- jly 10y ago
  You're not the only one... I'm an American married to a kiwi and we have been considering moving to NZ from the US for the last couple of years. We are seeing exactly the same thing and it's unfortunately continuing to delay our move, maybe permanently. Sad what's happened the last 5 or so years. Our friends in Auckland who did not get into the housing market 3-5 years ago or earlier are completely priced out and looking to move to more affordable areas.
  - gnat 10y ago
    If you can work remotely, A+ for "more affordable areas" ... NZ is beautiful all over, and if there's a particular type of outdoors you love (mountain biking, hiking, skiing, diving, whatever) then The Provinces are great for you. (Hello from Leigh)
rodgerd 10y ago
> Fantastic. And, of course, we can no doubt expect them to be pouring money into disassembling New Zealand's health, education, etc systems.
pj_mukh 10y ago
Time for a Foreign investment tax[1]? I am a big proponent of global trade and having money flow easily but I can't find a good argument against what Vancouver did here. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/foreign-buying-plummets-in-vancouver-after-new-property-tax http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/foreign-bu...
esja 10y ago
Same situation, but Australian. Australia is quite a few steps ahead of New Zealand on this delightful journey toward outright social and generational conflict. At least in NZ you now seem to have a real public debate and perhaps some hope for change. In the last election the Prime Minister (ex-Goldman, owns many properties including a literal mansion on the harbour), and the Treasurer (ex-honcho at the Property Council), openly campaigned to maintain the huge tax advantages investors hold over owner-occupiers. They won the election. There are many, many weaknesses in enforcement around money-laundering and foreign "investment" in property. These have been called out for over a decade by international and local anti-corruption organisations. The Reserve Bank and other financial regulatory bodies periodically wring their hands and do nothing. The major banks are hugely profitable and "not risky at all" based on revaluing their collateral upward as the bubble grows and they lend more into it. At this point it's quite obvious the people who can fix the problem do not want to. Why? Because the Australian government successfully turned housing into a one-way investment for the demographic majority (mainly baby boomers). They cannot taper the ponzi scheme without making those people poorer, and those people are their electoral support. Those people have come to believe they are clever rather than lucky, and this psychology prevents them from understanding they are hurting their children. Most if not all government MPs own investment property, i.e. they have taken a leveraged bet on this arrangement continuing. The way property has permeated every aspect of the culture and it's political and economic strategy really needs to be seen to be believed. I've been returning every couple of years over the past decade or so and it's like visiting an alien planet. More here for anyone interested: http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/ http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/
- danieltillett 10y ago
  It certainly is insane how expensive property is in Australia. I live in Sydney and the price here make SF and NYC look cheap.
robotresearcher 10y ago
So you're pissed with people who made money elsewhere then went to NZ to buy property. And you're pissed because it messes with your plan of earning money in London and then using it to buy property in NZ. The same international market that employs you in London priced that house in Aukland. Also, do you imagine your presence in London increases or decreases property prices there?
- te_chris 10y ago
  No, not pissed, incredulous. Their luck is theirs, mine is mine. That didn't stop me observing the situation though, observing that the policy settings pursued by western govts have lead to a crazy asset price bubble while wages - even for people as privileged as my partner and I - have stayed relatively stagnant. I'm not an idiot, I know that I'm doing well, but that almost makes me point for me: if a household like mine can't afford to buy a basic asset like housing, what happens to everyone beneath our household in the income scale? (Rhetorical question btw, we all know what happens. Also before anyone says it, yes we could reallocate spending, that is 100% not my point)
  - robotresearcher 10y ago
    OK, I withdraw 'pissed'. Now you're finding 'western govts' to blame for 'crazy' house prices in NZ. But your own plan is/was to buy NZ property with London wages. How can you be incredulous that other people have done the same?
gscott 10y ago
House prices are high everywhere. Pick a place, for my choice I put in Kazakhstan and found this house for $550,000.00 USD and numerous others for similar prices. http://kazakhstan.realigro.com/for-sale/house/almaty-1/25386.html http://kazakhstan.realigro.com/for-sale/house/almaty-1/25386... The best house prices are in the United States. You can find good house prices in most places other then California.
- dvtv75 10y ago
  You seem to be choosing a house and comparing it with the median. Find the median in the largest city in Kazakhstan and compare it with the median in Auckland. Then do the same for wages, and you'll have something worth looking at, otherwise you're simply citing one example and calling it a trend.

pyre 10y ago

The fact that you're talking about $650k - $700k being in your price range means that you're doing better than a lot of people.

Ductapemaster 10y ago
While it may be true that the OP is "doing well" salary wise, your comment detracts from the point he is making. just because someone makes a lot of money doesn't mean that their problems are any less valid.
- yequalsx 10y ago
  I think it is more OP calling the world mad when $6000,000NZ is the price range for a "decent" house. Heck, even the ability to move to another country is luxury enough. The 1% calling crazy what the 0.1% do is laughable to most I presume. I'm in the 1% so I'm not sure how the 80% really view such comments but I imagine it's farcical to them.
  - AvenueIngres 10y ago
    OP is upper middle class, at best. Let's not use rethoric that would only apply to people that are actually considerably wealthy regardless of the comparative entity you choose to rank them against i.e billionaires and millionaires. A couple trying to buy a nice house with their combined salaries isn't insane. In particular when that is the norm they were used to and who is slowly disintegrating.
    - yequalsx 10y ago
      In terms of purchasing power for the world they are not upper middle class. They are in the higher eschalons in terms of wealth and economic means. I don't decry their plight but rather seek to put context to it. People in their income bracket have driven up land and housing prices in Belize, Costa Rica, Panama, Thailand, and elsewhere. That didn't make the world crazy in their eyes but having prices driven up in Auckland did. That perspective is crazy.
    - hexane360 10y ago
      http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/16/are-you-in-the-global-middle-class-find-out-with-our-income-calculator/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/16/are-you-in-t... $80,000 USD for 4 people is "High Income" globally.
  - te_chris 10y ago
    600k NZD is mad, in my life experience. It's a crazy amount of money compared to average incomes in NZ - especially for a house that likely needs work.
- akvadrako 10y ago
  Of course it does. People with money have options - they have no excuses for not being comfortable with their life. The poor guy can only choose among a few places on earth to live, needs to work a lot and will have a hard time surviving otherwise. This complaining guy can live basically anywhere or could have been living at the level of the poor guy and retire after a few years of earning his 99th percentile income. I just can't fathom the mindset of people who think they deserve to live a high society lifestyle. Their position is FAPP strictly better than 99% of people currently alive on Earth.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Standard of living is relative but largely local/regional. Saying that everyone in NZ has it made because they should just be happy they weren't born in Bangladesh or something is incredibly short-sighted.
    - Nydhal 10y ago
      Thinking on a global scale is the literal opposite of short-sightedness.
pinot 10y ago
Those are median prices in the area.
wavefunction 10y ago
It seems explicit that $650k is not in the poster's price range, but they offer those valuations as examples of the lower end or nicer housing options available.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
AvenueIngres 10y ago
Is that the metric you want to choose to decide how happy you should be about a given situation? Comparative performance with people in the same demographic and income range seems a lot better. Otherwise you can pretty argue ad absurdum that yeah, you aren't starving, you aren't dead so everything is good! R-r...right?
- tudorw 10y ago
  well, the reality is that level of optimism is required for the 800 million people living on a dollar a day, and if they can do it then perhaps those more fortunate could learn something there, as the Somalian I met said, 'nobody promised me tomorrow', or the popular 'yesterday was better than today, and today will be better than tomorrow'...
  - AvenueIngres 10y ago
    Oh please, I am barely holding back my tears. Is that unreasonable for people to improve their living conditions and be disappointed when those don't even match the ones of their parents? Or should they just accept the extreme poverty threshold as the sole upper bound required to be content about their lives.
    - hueving 10y ago
      Ok, if you go that route, don't complain about rich people wanting more and more. They are just "improving their living conditions".
      - AvenueIngres 10y ago
        >don't complain about rich people wanting more and more. I don't. That's the basic human thing to do and harnessing that greed has lifted billions of people out of poverty.
        hueving 10y ago
gthtjtkt 10y ago
He didn't say that's his price range, he said those are the prices. Big difference.
jly 10y ago
The median home price in Auckland is > NZ$1M. He is saying a house he would refuse to buy costs $700k. Unfortunately for those in many industries, Auckland is one of the few viable options for those that want to live in New Zealand and have access to a good job market. It has effectively priced out many from owning a home, even those earning a good income.

flog 10y ago

To give more context for non-Kiwi's: New Zealanders have traditionally valued houses above all else, treating them as their retirement plans. We don't have capital gains tax or stamp duty, so house flipping has been a valuable side-business for many.

te_chris 10y ago
This, kind of. Though it's not just NZ, a majority in the U.K. aspires to home ownership as well, from what I can observe.
bradleyjg 10y ago
It's great to offer context, but you should realize that this isn't some neutral interesting fact. It's a direct contributor to the problem. When large numbers of politically powerful middle and upper class voters make plans dependent on their home prices growing faster than the rate of general inflation politicians figure out a way to make that happen. Homes can't be both affordable and a great investment for very long, the two goals are in direct opposition.

knz 10y ago

I'm also an expat kiwi (in the US) and definitely agree re the shift about 5-6 years ago. It's not just the house prices it's also the potential salary. Higher housing costs (and you get a lot less for that money in NZ) and lower wages isn't ideal when contemplating the move back.

jly 10y ago
You're not the only one... I'm an American married to a kiwi and we have been considering moving to NZ from the US for the last couple of years. We are seeing exactly the same thing and it's unfortunately continuing to delay our move, maybe permanently. Sad what's happened the last 5 or so years. Our friends in Auckland who did not get into the housing market 3-5 years ago or earlier are completely priced out and looking to move to more affordable areas.
- gnat 10y ago
  If you can work remotely, A+ for "more affordable areas" ... NZ is beautiful all over, and if there's a particular type of outdoors you love (mountain biking, hiking, skiing, diving, whatever) then The Provinces are great for you. (Hello from Leigh)

rodgerd 10y ago

> Fantastic. And, of course, we can no doubt expect them to be pouring money into disassembling New Zealand's health, education, etc systems.

pj_mukh 10y ago

Time for a Foreign investment tax[1]? I am a big proponent of global trade and having money flow easily but I can't find a good argument against what Vancouver did here. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/foreign-buying-plummets-in-vancouver-after-new-property-tax http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-22/foreign-bu...

esja 10y ago

Same situation, but Australian. Australia is quite a few steps ahead of New Zealand on this delightful journey toward outright social and generational conflict. At least in NZ you now seem to have a real public debate and perhaps some hope for change. In the last election the Prime Minister (ex-Goldman, owns many properties including a literal mansion on the harbour), and the Treasurer (ex-honcho at the Property Council), openly campaigned to maintain the huge tax advantages investors hold over owner-occupiers. They won the election. There are many, many weaknesses in enforcement around money-laundering and foreign "investment" in property. These have been called out for over a decade by international and local anti-corruption organisations. The Reserve Bank and other financial regulatory bodies periodically wring their hands and do nothing. The major banks are hugely profitable and "not risky at all" based on revaluing their collateral upward as the bubble grows and they lend more into it. At this point it's quite obvious the people who can fix the problem do not want to. Why? Because the Australian government successfully turned housing into a one-way investment for the demographic majority (mainly baby boomers). They cannot taper the ponzi scheme without making those people poorer, and those people are their electoral support. Those people have come to believe they are clever rather than lucky, and this psychology prevents them from understanding they are hurting their children. Most if not all government MPs own investment property, i.e. they have taken a leveraged bet on this arrangement continuing. The way property has permeated every aspect of the culture and it's political and economic strategy really needs to be seen to be believed. I've been returning every couple of years over the past decade or so and it's like visiting an alien planet. More here for anyone interested: http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/ http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/

danieltillett 10y ago
It certainly is insane how expensive property is in Australia. I live in Sydney and the price here make SF and NYC look cheap.

robotresearcher 10y ago

So you're pissed with people who made money elsewhere then went to NZ to buy property. And you're pissed because it messes with your plan of earning money in London and then using it to buy property in NZ. The same international market that employs you in London priced that house in Aukland. Also, do you imagine your presence in London increases or decreases property prices there?

te_chris 10y ago
No, not pissed, incredulous. Their luck is theirs, mine is mine. That didn't stop me observing the situation though, observing that the policy settings pursued by western govts have lead to a crazy asset price bubble while wages - even for people as privileged as my partner and I - have stayed relatively stagnant. I'm not an idiot, I know that I'm doing well, but that almost makes me point for me: if a household like mine can't afford to buy a basic asset like housing, what happens to everyone beneath our household in the income scale? (Rhetorical question btw, we all know what happens. Also before anyone says it, yes we could reallocate spending, that is 100% not my point)
- robotresearcher 10y ago
  OK, I withdraw 'pissed'. Now you're finding 'western govts' to blame for 'crazy' house prices in NZ. But your own plan is/was to buy NZ property with London wages. How can you be incredulous that other people have done the same?

gscott 10y ago

House prices are high everywhere. Pick a place, for my choice I put in Kazakhstan and found this house for $550,000.00 USD and numerous others for similar prices. http://kazakhstan.realigro.com/for-sale/house/almaty-1/25386.html http://kazakhstan.realigro.com/for-sale/house/almaty-1/25386... The best house prices are in the United States. You can find good house prices in most places other then California.

dvtv75 10y ago
You seem to be choosing a house and comparing it with the median. Find the median in the largest city in Kazakhstan and compare it with the median in Auckland. Then do the same for wages, and you'll have something worth looking at, otherwise you're simply citing one example and calling it a trend.