8 ms·

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, s

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's something else behind this politically correct movement? Gee, I wonder why certain people are trying to pu$h this so hard? You can ea$ily gue$$ what thi$ expan$ion of the labor $upply i$ really about if you think long and hard about it.

ubernostrum 10y ago
When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a problem until you've fixed every other instance of it first, and I'll use this no matter which instance you go after first"), and C) doesn't require you to look like a 1990s $la$hdot u$er talking about Micro$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$oft, maybe we could have a constructive conversation. But the tone of your comment suggests you're not really interested in it, y'know?
- solipsism 10y ago
  Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.
  - labster 10y ago
    I doubt they will. The universe just isn't about you, solipsism.
  - throw_away_777 10y ago
    Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.
    - ap22213 10y ago
      But, if everyone uses throwaway accounts to say what they really want to say, then it just helps perpetuate the same political correctness that they dislike.
      - throw_away_777 10y ago
        I don't understand what you are trying to say - political correctness is all about preventing people from saying things that aren't "politically" correct. It is a tool for preventing discussion about topics which might offend people, and for silencing opposing views. If everyone is allowed to speak freely without the shame of not being "politically" correct than people can say what they believe. You weigh the cost of offending people against the freedom to speak out against the prevailing "politically" correct beliefs.
    - solipsism 10y ago
      Because without throwaway accounts people can't express views that aren't politically correct? Look through my history, I express such views all the time. I just don't think virtual points are so important that I need to make sure they're always going up.
      - throw_away_777 10y ago
        I looked through your history but couldn't find a comment where you were being not politically correct, but I didn't try all that hard. Regardless there are certain sentiments that you can't express even though they may be true, to me that is what "politically" correct means. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers. You can't even bring up the possibility that women are different than men as a reason there aren't more women in STEM fields without being persecuted, instead you get articles somehow twisting data to make it look like technical interviews are the main thing holding women back from tech jobs - this may be a small contributing factor, but it isn't a primary cause.
        10y ago
- protomyth 10y ago
  As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childhood loves and hates, nothing is really going to work with software developers. We will get mostly outsiders that found their love outside of the system. Also, why would you want your daughters to go into a career that exhibits all the ageism of being an actress?
  - BlackAura 10y ago
    It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate of just giving up, and changing career. There's only so much bullshit you can take before just deciding that, even though you love the work, it just isn't worth your sanity. Working in a technical role in a non-tech company is often orders of magnitude better. Just like it is in many other respects, because tech companies are just horrifically broken in so many ways.
    - aianus 10y ago
      > It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        > They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. That's a non sequitur; just because there are things to ease the process for them does not mean that it is easier. The job fairs would mean that it's easier, in a vacuum. It's not in a vacuum. There are other effects that the job fairs can only chip away at.
theoh 10y ago
If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.
- xorgar831 10y ago
  Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.
  - xorgar831 10y ago
    To add to my own comment even, that's why we have the Electoral College vs. a simple majority, it further allows smaller groups to have some say.
  - finid 10y ago
    The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. That leaves me scratching my head. I know that Iraq is a mess, but how is that because of diversity, or lack of it? And about Iran. There's bloodshed there?
    - diyorgasms 10y ago
      I'm suspecting parent is referring to the Iran-Iraq War, though I may be mistaken.
      - finid 10y ago
        But that war had nothing to do with diversity. It was, in a sense, one of our proxy wars, when Saddam was our bastard.
saintwind 10y ago
Hey look, someone with a pair of testicles in the comments section on HN!
douche 10y ago
There are efforts to try to get more men into teaching and nursing. Unfortunately, teaching pays shit and requires a four year degree and student teaching to get a teaching certificate, so it's not the most attractive option. Those other blue-collar traditionally masculine jobs have a hard dependency on brute strength that most women can't satisfy. Physiology is almost as cruel a mistress as physics.
- ryanx435 10y ago
  a large part of construction is now entirely machine based. how much strength does it take to drive a dump truck? or operate a crane? or drive a bulldozer? the answer is that it is the same amount as driving an every day car: almost none. I don't know enough about the other industries to comment.
  - douche 10y ago
    How about when things break down, and you're out there in the mud turning wrenches and pounding on things to tear the machine apart, fix it, and put it back together? It's not an infrequent occurrence.
    - weberc2 10y ago
      This isn't characteristic of U.S. factories; the costs associated with workplace injury are so high that employers are obsessed with near misses (i.e., non-injuries) and ergonomics (lever too high? We'll lower it. Reaching across your chest? We'll change your work station. Standing on concrete too long? We'll install ergonomic floor mats.). These companies employ men through their 60s. Women certainly can (and do!) work in these environments. They just don't do it in proportion to men.
      - douche 10y ago
        That's kind of moving the goal-posts; we were discussing construction, which, at least in my experience, has a lot less OSHA oversight. Probably it is different in more unionized sectors as well; my experience is decidedly not - smaller logging, construction and power generation companies, where you often don't have the equipment to really do things correctly, for whatever reason, but it has to get done, and so brute strength and ignorance are resorted to.
ucarion 10y ago
It's not just political correctness. The socially optimal future is one in which anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer. Someday, we're going to put in effort to move from our current world to this better future. Software engineering is a highly-desirable, well-paying, forward-looking job and it's still early days. Why not give it a shot? There are of course many PC-police types who can't give a clear reason why we should pay attention to diversity, but there are good reasons nonetheless.
- bmmayer1 10y ago
  Anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer right now.
  - mixedCase 10y ago
    And in before someone starts ranting about "institutional racism/sexism". No, it doesn't exist in our industry anymore than the rest of the western world, and that's very little; SPECIALLY in a widely left-leaning world such as academia. The overwhelming majority of the engineering world is welcoming to women and non-whites (I can personally attest to the latter) just like it is of the much reviled "white man", even more at times. As a society we're quick to shame any hint of racism and sexism; anyone who could deny that with a straight face is living in another world.
- markonthewall 10y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if software engineers are half as smart as they think they are. I can't think of any precedent or similar situation: a corps of highly skilled workers pro-actively sabotaging themselves in order to share the fate of their country's dying middle class: longer hours, shrinking salaries and cut-throat competition for employment. I am glad that I have some fuck-you money now. Because the prospects as software engineer seem, frankly, rather poor now. The first step is to stop thinking that this industry - somehow - matters more than any other or that herein lies the future of humanity. Half of that is marketing garbage and the other results from free kool-aid parties that were held after a few of us either built successful companies or made good exit deals with bigger ones. There is an alarming amount of people who are not only drunk, but blind too. I might be the bearer of bad news, but hear me out: this industry is just like any other. In other words, you are subject to the same dynamics that fuel workers - shareholders dualism everywhere. Basic game theory: you are going to get screwed and that's not funny.
Terr_ 10y ago
> mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries Given that we're talking about "tech", I think your argument would be stronger if you used examples where physical strength is seldom an important factor in job-performance.
- tw04 10y ago
  Physical strength tends to be an extremely important part of being a nurse. There's no shortage of women being represented there. As for the above: my garbage "man" is a woman, so it has nothing to do with physical strength. The truck picks up the can and has for at least 5 years in even the most Podunk town.
  - Fomite 10y ago
    One of the things currently being tangled with, in nursing (because contrary to the usual assertion, the profession does worry about this) is the tendency for male nurses to get assigned to difficult patients who need restraint, and what that means for their occupational health.
    - tw04 10y ago
      It shouldn't be though, that's kind of the point. Directing people to a profession to make the representation equal is both counter-productive and IMO HURTS us as a whole because you end up with people pursuing a career they potentially hate because someone gave them a scholarship or promised them more money for doing so. If more women than men want to be nurses, awesome, let them. If men are intentionally NOT being hired to be nurses that WANT to be nurses simply because they are men, THAT is a problem we need to fix. In the same token, if more men want to be programmers than women, awesome, let them. If companies are intentionally not hiring women for being women, FIX IT! But PLEASE stop creating problems where they don't exist. I have no desire to take care of other people and the though of being a nurse is about the worst possible day job I could imagine. I'm willing to bet most nurses would rather stab themselves in the face than sit at a computer all day writing code too. Are we as a society really going to sit there and tell them they're wrong? They're just confused and would really love to program if they just are forced into it?
kasey_junk 10y ago
Personally I'm happy to make an argument that given a lack of evidence that gender plays a negative roll, we have a moral imperative to eliminate unfair and discriminatory barriers to entry because its the right thing to do. But lets say that isn't a compelling argument for you. Our industry has a disastrous success rate. Something is wrong. Most software is not getting written correctly, on time, or on budget. On top of this, it is nearly impossible to fill positions with qualified applicants. Given that, there is a pretty strong argument that we should change the way we hire software developers and an obvious way to change it is to be more inclusive. If the current population isn't getting the job done, lets open the population up to others.
- tmnvix 10y ago
  > Something is wrong. Most software is not getting written correctly, on time, or on budget. On top of this, it is nearly impossible to fill positions with qualified applicants. True. > Given that, there is a pretty strong argument that we should change the way we hire software developers and an obvious way to change it is to be more inclusive. What is this 'strong argument'? Your conclusion "be more inclusive" is based on nothing more than an assumption that change will be good. There are any number of changes that could be made. You need to expand on your reasons for asserting that 'being more inclusive' will fix the problem. It could just as easily make it worse. You could possibly argue that increasing the pool of candidates by not excluding people based on irrelevant factors (such as gender, race, or age) will mean that we have a better chance of finding qualified candidates. The danger here is if we confuse increased diversity in the hiring process (opportunity) with increased diversity amongst employees (outcome). The first fits your assumption. The second doesn't and could lead to worse outcomes (from a business perspective).
  - kasey_junk 10y ago
    The argument is we could hardly be worse. I'm not convinced we know what qualified even looks like. We certainly can't tell in any objective way. Given that a purely random inclusion of more applicants is likely to improve the situation. Thats before arguing for the merits of a diverse work force or relying on moral imperatives.
Fomite 10y ago
Both nursing and teaching have been wrestling with how to get more men into those professions for well over a decade, and the number of men in nursing has been rising for the past three decades.
- generic_user 10y ago
  > Both nursing and teaching have been wrestling with how to get more men into those professions for well over a decade Where is this wrestling? Surely the disparity in gender is the result of Misandy at every level of the Nursing industry and these evil Woman should be held to account for there tyrannical Matriarchy. Where are the media stories about institutionalized Gender bias in Nursing. Where is the Diversity industry setting up organisations to promote 50/50 Male Female Nursing gender ratio? Where is the call to lower or scrap Nursing standards to accommodate under skilled Men because its the right thing to do? I'm not holding my breath.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I would have to see proof of this statement in teaching. Daycare is openly hostile towards men particularly where insurance is concerned and it doesn't look like the stats in elementary school are changing.
bootload 10y ago
I too await in anticipation for the politically naive to solve the problem of men being under represented in houses looking after their kids full-time, working at home and holding a job or find one. I'm all in for as many people to do the job as possible regardless of race, creed, sex or colour.
BlackAura 10y ago
> Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here Have you tried looking, before just assuming that such things don't already exist? I mean, a simple Google search will find plenty of industry groups, in multiple countries, dedicated to supporting women in all of those industries. They encourage women to pursue careers in those industries, do advocacy and education, and work with the industry to try to fix the problems that cause the lack of women in those industries. This is true for pretty much every industry that was traditionally male-dominated. Same goes for men in traditionally female-dominated industries. None of these efforts are as high profile as business or tech. Doesn't mean they don't exist.
- chongli 10y ago
  Sure, but if those efforts are directed towards a goal of 50/50 equality of outcome then they are doomed to fail barring a totalitarian takeover of our society. A cursory perusal of western countries reveals that the more egalitarian a society is -- with Scandinavia at the top -- the more lopsided the gender differences are across many industries. Look, I'm not saying that many industries don't feature heavy discrimination against minority populations. We definitely do need to address that in a variety of ways. I just don't think it can be accomplished by fiat. Forcing people to do things against their will does not make them more tolerant; if anything, it makes them bitterly resentful.
- HaloZero 10y ago
  Even if they are initiatives to have inclusiveness into other fields, I think the throwaway account has a point about how in computers it's a bit more about money but more importantly also about influence. The software we create can be used by millions of people. If all that is dominated by white men, then there are limitations to that. I would advocate that a diverse workforce allows for that more than anything else.
retrogradeorbit 10y ago
What about midwifery? With only 0.3% male [1]!! When are we going to see the PC brigade push for 50/50 hiring quotas there? You would think they would be outraged with the diversity being so poor. Far, far worse than in tech. Surely it's rampant discrimination! [1] Nurse and Midwife - Registration Data - June 2016, page 10 http://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/About/Statistics.aspx http://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/About/Statistics.asp...

ubernostrum 10y ago

When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a problem until you've fixed every other instance of it first, and I'll use this no matter which instance you go after first"), and C) doesn't require you to look like a 1990s $la$hdot u$er talking about Micro$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$oft, maybe we could have a constructive conversation. But the tone of your comment suggests you're not really interested in it, y'know?

solipsism 10y ago
Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.
- labster 10y ago
  I doubt they will. The universe just isn't about you, solipsism.
- throw_away_777 10y ago
  Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.
  - ap22213 10y ago
    But, if everyone uses throwaway accounts to say what they really want to say, then it just helps perpetuate the same political correctness that they dislike.
    - throw_away_777 10y ago
      I don't understand what you are trying to say - political correctness is all about preventing people from saying things that aren't "politically" correct. It is a tool for preventing discussion about topics which might offend people, and for silencing opposing views. If everyone is allowed to speak freely without the shame of not being "politically" correct than people can say what they believe. You weigh the cost of offending people against the freedom to speak out against the prevailing "politically" correct beliefs.
  - solipsism 10y ago
    Because without throwaway accounts people can't express views that aren't politically correct? Look through my history, I express such views all the time. I just don't think virtual points are so important that I need to make sure they're always going up.
    - throw_away_777 10y ago
      I looked through your history but couldn't find a comment where you were being not politically correct, but I didn't try all that hard. Regardless there are certain sentiments that you can't express even though they may be true, to me that is what "politically" correct means. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers. You can't even bring up the possibility that women are different than men as a reason there aren't more women in STEM fields without being persecuted, instead you get articles somehow twisting data to make it look like technical interviews are the main thing holding women back from tech jobs - this may be a small contributing factor, but it isn't a primary cause.
      - 10y ago
protomyth 10y ago
As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childhood loves and hates, nothing is really going to work with software developers. We will get mostly outsiders that found their love outside of the system. Also, why would you want your daughters to go into a career that exhibits all the ageism of being an actress?
- BlackAura 10y ago
  It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate of just giving up, and changing career. There's only so much bullshit you can take before just deciding that, even though you love the work, it just isn't worth your sanity. Working in a technical role in a non-tech company is often orders of magnitude better. Just like it is in many other respects, because tech companies are just horrifically broken in so many ways.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      > They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. That's a non sequitur; just because there are things to ease the process for them does not mean that it is easier. The job fairs would mean that it's easier, in a vacuum. It's not in a vacuum. There are other effects that the job fairs can only chip away at.

theoh 10y ago

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

xorgar831 10y ago
Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.
- xorgar831 10y ago
  To add to my own comment even, that's why we have the Electoral College vs. a simple majority, it further allows smaller groups to have some say.
- finid 10y ago
  The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. That leaves me scratching my head. I know that Iraq is a mess, but how is that because of diversity, or lack of it? And about Iran. There's bloodshed there?
  - diyorgasms 10y ago
    I'm suspecting parent is referring to the Iran-Iraq War, though I may be mistaken.
    - finid 10y ago
      But that war had nothing to do with diversity. It was, in a sense, one of our proxy wars, when Saddam was our bastard.

saintwind 10y ago

Hey look, someone with a pair of testicles in the comments section on HN!

douche 10y ago

There are efforts to try to get more men into teaching and nursing. Unfortunately, teaching pays shit and requires a four year degree and student teaching to get a teaching certificate, so it's not the most attractive option. Those other blue-collar traditionally masculine jobs have a hard dependency on brute strength that most women can't satisfy. Physiology is almost as cruel a mistress as physics.

ryanx435 10y ago
a large part of construction is now entirely machine based. how much strength does it take to drive a dump truck? or operate a crane? or drive a bulldozer? the answer is that it is the same amount as driving an every day car: almost none. I don't know enough about the other industries to comment.
- douche 10y ago
  How about when things break down, and you're out there in the mud turning wrenches and pounding on things to tear the machine apart, fix it, and put it back together? It's not an infrequent occurrence.
  - weberc2 10y ago
    This isn't characteristic of U.S. factories; the costs associated with workplace injury are so high that employers are obsessed with near misses (i.e., non-injuries) and ergonomics (lever too high? We'll lower it. Reaching across your chest? We'll change your work station. Standing on concrete too long? We'll install ergonomic floor mats.). These companies employ men through their 60s. Women certainly can (and do!) work in these environments. They just don't do it in proportion to men.
    - douche 10y ago
      That's kind of moving the goal-posts; we were discussing construction, which, at least in my experience, has a lot less OSHA oversight. Probably it is different in more unionized sectors as well; my experience is decidedly not - smaller logging, construction and power generation companies, where you often don't have the equipment to really do things correctly, for whatever reason, but it has to get done, and so brute strength and ignorance are resorted to.

ucarion 10y ago

It's not just political correctness. The socially optimal future is one in which anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer. Someday, we're going to put in effort to move from our current world to this better future. Software engineering is a highly-desirable, well-paying, forward-looking job and it's still early days. Why not give it a shot? There are of course many PC-police types who can't give a clear reason why we should pay attention to diversity, but there are good reasons nonetheless.

bmmayer1 10y ago
Anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer right now.
- mixedCase 10y ago
  And in before someone starts ranting about "institutional racism/sexism". No, it doesn't exist in our industry anymore than the rest of the western world, and that's very little; SPECIALLY in a widely left-leaning world such as academia. The overwhelming majority of the engineering world is welcoming to women and non-whites (I can personally attest to the latter) just like it is of the much reviled "white man", even more at times. As a society we're quick to shame any hint of racism and sexism; anyone who could deny that with a straight face is living in another world.
markonthewall 10y ago
Sometimes I wonder if software engineers are half as smart as they think they are. I can't think of any precedent or similar situation: a corps of highly skilled workers pro-actively sabotaging themselves in order to share the fate of their country's dying middle class: longer hours, shrinking salaries and cut-throat competition for employment. I am glad that I have some fuck-you money now. Because the prospects as software engineer seem, frankly, rather poor now. The first step is to stop thinking that this industry - somehow - matters more than any other or that herein lies the future of humanity. Half of that is marketing garbage and the other results from free kool-aid parties that were held after a few of us either built successful companies or made good exit deals with bigger ones. There is an alarming amount of people who are not only drunk, but blind too. I might be the bearer of bad news, but hear me out: this industry is just like any other. In other words, you are subject to the same dynamics that fuel workers - shareholders dualism everywhere. Basic game theory: you are going to get screwed and that's not funny.

Terr_ 10y ago

> mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries Given that we're talking about "tech", I think your argument would be stronger if you used examples where physical strength is seldom an important factor in job-performance.

tw04 10y ago
Physical strength tends to be an extremely important part of being a nurse. There's no shortage of women being represented there. As for the above: my garbage "man" is a woman, so it has nothing to do with physical strength. The truck picks up the can and has for at least 5 years in even the most Podunk town.
- Fomite 10y ago
  One of the things currently being tangled with, in nursing (because contrary to the usual assertion, the profession does worry about this) is the tendency for male nurses to get assigned to difficult patients who need restraint, and what that means for their occupational health.
  - tw04 10y ago
    It shouldn't be though, that's kind of the point. Directing people to a profession to make the representation equal is both counter-productive and IMO HURTS us as a whole because you end up with people pursuing a career they potentially hate because someone gave them a scholarship or promised them more money for doing so. If more women than men want to be nurses, awesome, let them. If men are intentionally NOT being hired to be nurses that WANT to be nurses simply because they are men, THAT is a problem we need to fix. In the same token, if more men want to be programmers than women, awesome, let them. If companies are intentionally not hiring women for being women, FIX IT! But PLEASE stop creating problems where they don't exist. I have no desire to take care of other people and the though of being a nurse is about the worst possible day job I could imagine. I'm willing to bet most nurses would rather stab themselves in the face than sit at a computer all day writing code too. Are we as a society really going to sit there and tell them they're wrong? They're just confused and would really love to program if they just are forced into it?

kasey_junk 10y ago

Personally I'm happy to make an argument that given a lack of evidence that gender plays a negative roll, we have a moral imperative to eliminate unfair and discriminatory barriers to entry because its the right thing to do. But lets say that isn't a compelling argument for you. Our industry has a disastrous success rate. Something is wrong. Most software is not getting written correctly, on time, or on budget. On top of this, it is nearly impossible to fill positions with qualified applicants. Given that, there is a pretty strong argument that we should change the way we hire software developers and an obvious way to change it is to be more inclusive. If the current population isn't getting the job done, lets open the population up to others.

tmnvix 10y ago
> Something is wrong. Most software is not getting written correctly, on time, or on budget. On top of this, it is nearly impossible to fill positions with qualified applicants. True. > Given that, there is a pretty strong argument that we should change the way we hire software developers and an obvious way to change it is to be more inclusive. What is this 'strong argument'? Your conclusion "be more inclusive" is based on nothing more than an assumption that change will be good. There are any number of changes that could be made. You need to expand on your reasons for asserting that 'being more inclusive' will fix the problem. It could just as easily make it worse. You could possibly argue that increasing the pool of candidates by not excluding people based on irrelevant factors (such as gender, race, or age) will mean that we have a better chance of finding qualified candidates. The danger here is if we confuse increased diversity in the hiring process (opportunity) with increased diversity amongst employees (outcome). The first fits your assumption. The second doesn't and could lead to worse outcomes (from a business perspective).
- kasey_junk 10y ago
  The argument is we could hardly be worse. I'm not convinced we know what qualified even looks like. We certainly can't tell in any objective way. Given that a purely random inclusion of more applicants is likely to improve the situation. Thats before arguing for the merits of a diverse work force or relying on moral imperatives.

Fomite 10y ago

Both nursing and teaching have been wrestling with how to get more men into those professions for well over a decade, and the number of men in nursing has been rising for the past three decades.

generic_user 10y ago
> Both nursing and teaching have been wrestling with how to get more men into those professions for well over a decade Where is this wrestling? Surely the disparity in gender is the result of Misandy at every level of the Nursing industry and these evil Woman should be held to account for there tyrannical Matriarchy. Where are the media stories about institutionalized Gender bias in Nursing. Where is the Diversity industry setting up organisations to promote 50/50 Male Female Nursing gender ratio? Where is the call to lower or scrap Nursing standards to accommodate under skilled Men because its the right thing to do? I'm not holding my breath.
protomyth 10y ago
I would have to see proof of this statement in teaching. Daycare is openly hostile towards men particularly where insurance is concerned and it doesn't look like the stats in elementary school are changing.

bootload 10y ago

I too await in anticipation for the politically naive to solve the problem of men being under represented in houses looking after their kids full-time, working at home and holding a job or find one. I'm all in for as many people to do the job as possible regardless of race, creed, sex or colour.

BlackAura 10y ago

> Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here Have you tried looking, before just assuming that such things don't already exist? I mean, a simple Google search will find plenty of industry groups, in multiple countries, dedicated to supporting women in all of those industries. They encourage women to pursue careers in those industries, do advocacy and education, and work with the industry to try to fix the problems that cause the lack of women in those industries. This is true for pretty much every industry that was traditionally male-dominated. Same goes for men in traditionally female-dominated industries. None of these efforts are as high profile as business or tech. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

chongli 10y ago
Sure, but if those efforts are directed towards a goal of 50/50 equality of outcome then they are doomed to fail barring a totalitarian takeover of our society. A cursory perusal of western countries reveals that the more egalitarian a society is -- with Scandinavia at the top -- the more lopsided the gender differences are across many industries. Look, I'm not saying that many industries don't feature heavy discrimination against minority populations. We definitely do need to address that in a variety of ways. I just don't think it can be accomplished by fiat. Forcing people to do things against their will does not make them more tolerant; if anything, it makes them bitterly resentful.
HaloZero 10y ago
Even if they are initiatives to have inclusiveness into other fields, I think the throwaway account has a point about how in computers it's a bit more about money but more importantly also about influence. The software we create can be used by millions of people. If all that is dominated by white men, then there are limitations to that. I would advocate that a diverse workforce allows for that more than anything else.

retrogradeorbit 10y ago

What about midwifery? With only 0.3% male [1]!! When are we going to see the PC brigade push for 50/50 hiring quotas there? You would think they would be outraged with the diversity being so poor. Far, far worse than in tech. Surely it's rampant discrimination! [1] Nurse and Midwife - Registration Data - June 2016, page 10 http://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/About/Statistics.aspx http://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/About/Statistics.asp...