6 ms·

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barel

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. They have a pension of 600 euros a month. My parents die. I inherit their house. The house was built in the 60's and is on an expensive island. Government says that the house values 500.000 and I get taxed even though I have no money at all on my own. Basically the Greek government is unable to tax you directly (i.e. on the money you really make) and instead tries to guess your income by looking at the house. There are several cases however where your current house says nothing about how much money you actually make.

nugget 10y ago
Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?
- kkapelon 10y ago
  Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents house for no particular reason. Also if it was that easy to move somewhere else and find a job, you would have done it already (you would not wait for the government to create this tax and then think about it) Here is a third scenario for you reading pleasure 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do?
  - nugget 10y ago
    > Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germany, France? Certainly there must be places in the EU where the economy is better and there are more opportunities. People have been migrating around the world chasing economic opportunities for thousands of years. A million Syrians just traveled through Greece on their way north in search of this. > Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do? It seems that what has effectively happened is that the Greek Government has decided to confiscate a large part of the country's wealth through extremely high property tax rates. As other posters on this thread have mentioned, if the tax rate is 1% but the appraised value is 3x the actual market value, then the real tax rate is 3% and your Government is just playing games to try and hide the confiscation. Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece.
    - Ntrails 10y ago
      > Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership They tried that. Turns out politicians aren't actually very trustworthy...
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - erispoe 10y ago
        Turns out when people have to actually govern the thing they're pragmatists. That's what happened to Syriza. They're not "untrustworthy", they're just doing the best with the hand they inherited considering what EU politics are right now.
- tech2 10y ago
  Given the current issues in the Greek economy, it's unlikely you'll find a buyer since: * people can't afford it for themselves * won't buy-to-let (because people can't afford the rental) * won't buy-to-invest since there's a worry about market or government collapse and loss of investment
- CyberDildonics 10y ago
  Or buy a different 90,000 house that is valued at 90,000.
- return0 10y ago
  Or simply rent out the house?
branchless 10y ago
Ah won't anyone think of the unskilled person who inherited money and wants to continue to live well? Let this guy stay on this land and make the people who worked hard pay!
- kkapelon 10y ago
  If you think that you live well with 400 euros a month, then I rest my case.
  - branchless 10y ago
    Why should he occupy land he didn't work for whilst others with better jobs miss out?
sliverstorm 10y ago
Corrupt tax valuations are a problem, but it's practically one of the tenants of property tax that it is supposed to elbow you out if you can't afford the tax. It's not "nice" to say, but one of the purposes of property tax is to serve as a market force to encourage better usage of valuable land.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  One possible fix is a law that states the government must purchase properties at the assessed price (or at something like 85% of the assessed price). Then if the tax office assesses your house at triple its actual value, well, they just handed you a giant pile of cash.
  - mjevans 10y ago
    I actually like this idea. Lets take it a tiny bit further. To prevent the government from harassing you in to forced sales they don't intend to complete, make it a guaranteed minimum of the larger of 90% of the assessed value or 85% of the final sale price. Also the government, while the property is for sale, allows your continued use as previous and pays you 0.005% of the assessed value of the property //per month// for the privilege of listing it and allowing buyers to view it during normal business hours. At any time the government can cancel the deal and re-assess the value of the property, which shall be official retroactively for tax purposes (as far back as re-filing is allowed). At any time the current owners can cancel the deal, but then agree that the valued price is fair and valid as well as are required to hold the property for a full year after the cancellation.
  - repsilat 10y ago
    Another fix is to let you set the value yourself, and treat it as a standing offer to sell (at some premium, maybe.)
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      That runs into the problem of incentivizing various poison-pill type strategies to make it expensive in other ways to accept the standing offer to sell. Like, a high-level mobster could easily list their properties well below market rate while letting it be known to potential buyers that actually trying to purchase the property means saying goodbye to your kneecaps. There's a similar corruption issue on the government-sets-buy-price side, where unscrupulous officials can transfer wealth to individuals, but at least the corruption there is much more able to be audited.
return0 10y ago
Not everyone is lucky to inherit a house. Houses are overpriced and out-of-reach for middle class incomes in Greece. We also pay exorbitant income taxes. Is that fair?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jfoutz 10y ago
You have no way to challenge the assessor? Here (U.S.) you could put together a book of 50-100 similar houses and their sale prices. Take that to court and have the house reassessed. The US isn't corruption free, but in my limited experience, it's hard to have an assessment wildly out of line with reality, 3x would be hard to justify.
- atmosx 10y ago
  > You have no way to challenge the assessor? No you have not. The tax is based on a tag price the gov puts on your property which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding). Greece is a more like a dormitory these days. It's a miracle people still survive here, but economic activity is virtually dead and indirect taxation is still on the raise.
  - return0 10y ago
    > which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Is this data in Greece public the same as it is in the US? Can we obtain and aggregate this data? For science!
      - return0 10y ago
        It is, but bit hard to parse: http://www.et.gr/index.php/82-2013-01-30-08-00-00/204-4500 http://www.et.gr/index.php/82-2013-01-30-08-00-00/204-4500
    - atmosx 10y ago
      > Given that the values have been recently reassessed [...] MY experience is from a bid in 2012-13. But out of curiosity, how would you asses this[1] situation? It's a random article I just googled... http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-gia-spiti-se-xorio-fantasma http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-...

nugget 10y ago

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

kkapelon 10y ago
Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents house for no particular reason. Also if it was that easy to move somewhere else and find a job, you would have done it already (you would not wait for the government to create this tax and then think about it) Here is a third scenario for you reading pleasure 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do?
- nugget 10y ago
  > Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germany, France? Certainly there must be places in the EU where the economy is better and there are more opportunities. People have been migrating around the world chasing economic opportunities for thousands of years. A million Syrians just traveled through Greece on their way north in search of this. > Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do? It seems that what has effectively happened is that the Greek Government has decided to confiscate a large part of the country's wealth through extremely high property tax rates. As other posters on this thread have mentioned, if the tax rate is 1% but the appraised value is 3x the actual market value, then the real tax rate is 3% and your Government is just playing games to try and hide the confiscation. Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece.
  - Ntrails 10y ago
    > Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership They tried that. Turns out politicians aren't actually very trustworthy...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - erispoe 10y ago
      Turns out when people have to actually govern the thing they're pragmatists. That's what happened to Syriza. They're not "untrustworthy", they're just doing the best with the hand they inherited considering what EU politics are right now.
tech2 10y ago
Given the current issues in the Greek economy, it's unlikely you'll find a buyer since: * people can't afford it for themselves * won't buy-to-let (because people can't afford the rental) * won't buy-to-invest since there's a worry about market or government collapse and loss of investment
CyberDildonics 10y ago
Or buy a different 90,000 house that is valued at 90,000.
return0 10y ago
Or simply rent out the house?

branchless 10y ago

Ah won't anyone think of the unskilled person who inherited money and wants to continue to live well? Let this guy stay on this land and make the people who worked hard pay!

kkapelon 10y ago
If you think that you live well with 400 euros a month, then I rest my case.
- branchless 10y ago
  Why should he occupy land he didn't work for whilst others with better jobs miss out?

sliverstorm 10y ago

Corrupt tax valuations are a problem, but it's practically one of the tenants of property tax that it is supposed to elbow you out if you can't afford the tax. It's not "nice" to say, but one of the purposes of property tax is to serve as a market force to encourage better usage of valuable land.

ThrustVectoring 10y ago
One possible fix is a law that states the government must purchase properties at the assessed price (or at something like 85% of the assessed price). Then if the tax office assesses your house at triple its actual value, well, they just handed you a giant pile of cash.
- mjevans 10y ago
  I actually like this idea. Lets take it a tiny bit further. To prevent the government from harassing you in to forced sales they don't intend to complete, make it a guaranteed minimum of the larger of 90% of the assessed value or 85% of the final sale price. Also the government, while the property is for sale, allows your continued use as previous and pays you 0.005% of the assessed value of the property //per month// for the privilege of listing it and allowing buyers to view it during normal business hours. At any time the government can cancel the deal and re-assess the value of the property, which shall be official retroactively for tax purposes (as far back as re-filing is allowed). At any time the current owners can cancel the deal, but then agree that the valued price is fair and valid as well as are required to hold the property for a full year after the cancellation.
- repsilat 10y ago
  Another fix is to let you set the value yourself, and treat it as a standing offer to sell (at some premium, maybe.)
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    That runs into the problem of incentivizing various poison-pill type strategies to make it expensive in other ways to accept the standing offer to sell. Like, a high-level mobster could easily list their properties well below market rate while letting it be known to potential buyers that actually trying to purchase the property means saying goodbye to your kneecaps. There's a similar corruption issue on the government-sets-buy-price side, where unscrupulous officials can transfer wealth to individuals, but at least the corruption there is much more able to be audited.

return0 10y ago

Not everyone is lucky to inherit a house. Houses are overpriced and out-of-reach for middle class incomes in Greece. We also pay exorbitant income taxes. Is that fair?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jfoutz 10y ago

You have no way to challenge the assessor? Here (U.S.) you could put together a book of 50-100 similar houses and their sale prices. Take that to court and have the house reassessed. The US isn't corruption free, but in my limited experience, it's hard to have an assessment wildly out of line with reality, 3x would be hard to justify.

atmosx 10y ago
> You have no way to challenge the assessor? No you have not. The tax is based on a tag price the gov puts on your property which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding). Greece is a more like a dormitory these days. It's a miracle people still survive here, but economic activity is virtually dead and indirect taxation is still on the raise.
- return0 10y ago
  > which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Is this data in Greece public the same as it is in the US? Can we obtain and aggregate this data? For science!
    - return0 10y ago
      It is, but bit hard to parse: http://www.et.gr/index.php/82-2013-01-30-08-00-00/204-4500 http://www.et.gr/index.php/82-2013-01-30-08-00-00/204-4500
  - atmosx 10y ago
    > Given that the values have been recently reassessed [...] MY experience is from a bid in 2012-13. But out of curiosity, how would you asses this[1] situation? It's a random article I just googled... http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-gia-spiti-se-xorio-fantasma http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-...