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Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes

• cgio 10y ago
  Let's get facts straight. The state property tax in Greece is calculated on a nominal value far removed from market value. This means that a 300K nominal value property cannot sell today for 150K (I know, I have tried.) In practice, as the article mentions property value approaches zero as the market is incredibly shallow. Recalculate on the basis of that and then make the comparison.
  • flexie 10y ago
    I didn't pretend to describe all the rules in detail. In Denmark, property taxes are also calculated based on values that are not the current market value. Currently, 95% of Danes pay the state property tax based on a 2001/2002 value assessed by the tax authorities.
    • mfukar 10y ago
      No, you just pretended that the state property tax is very close to 0%, without mentioning WHAT is taxed at "very little" 0%.
      • flexie 10y ago
        I didn't pretend anything. Even if your property is taxed at €500k although it's worth €250k, you are still paying very little compared to Denmark. And actually, it is close to zero. Many of my friends, all middle class, pay €5-10k per year in property taxes for what is really modest 100-150m2 apartments or houses in or around Copenhagen. Are you anywhere close to that in Athens?
        • mfukar 10y ago
          Yes, easily more than €5k/year for a 120m2 house. (not me actually, my parents, but I doubt they lie to me about how much they spend) Like others have already mentioned in other threads, land & property valuations are defined by the state, and are way inflated and unrealistic. On top of that, there's all these ridiculous things that contribute to the property tax, like how many streets neighbor the building, etc.
    • cgio 10y ago
      2001/2 value assessment I would expect to be lower than current market price in Denmark?
      • flexie 10y ago
        It's really hard to say these days. Often it's lower, of course, sometimes it's higher.
      • mvindahl 10y ago
        In the larger cities, prices have surged over the past 15 years, in more remote areas, they have fallen slightly. There are plans on the table ATM to bring taxation in better line with valuation. As one may predict, this is not popular with city folks who imagined the tax rebate to be a perpetual thing.
  • charlesdm 10y ago
    Sounds like a bargain. Why shouldn't I pick up a property in Athens, right now? Are you talking about prime property locations in Athens?
    • kkapelon 10y ago
      Yes if you have the money now it is a good time to buy houses in Greece if you think that at some point the country will recover
    • mikeash 10y ago
      For one thing, it sounds like you'll be paying taxes on an assessed value far in excess of what you actually paid to buy the property.
      • kkapelon 10y ago
        Exactly! I should better rephrase it "If you have money to burn now" and can wait until the country recovers.
      • charlesdm 10y ago
        I would assume one can challenge that valuation with the tax authority or through the courts. A building isn't actually worth €300k if it can't be sold for €300k. If I buy something from a third party for €100k today, it's worth exactly that.
        • mikeash 10y ago
          If it were that easy, everyone would do it and the problem would go away. Tax authorities are often unreasonable when it comes to property valuations.
          • charlesdm 10y ago
            Tax lawyers are expensive. If people can't even pay the tax, how would they afford a tax lawyer? I have achieved beneficial settlements with unreasonable tax collectors with a good lawyer, so often it is that easy.
  • guitarbill 10y ago
    Who determines this "nominal value"? Sounds like a great business opportunity if it's far removed from market value...
    • sliverstorm 10y ago
      If the market is perverted or highly irrational, it does make some sense. For example, just because there are no buyers on the market, doesn't mean your home has no value. (Think of black markets. It's hard to find a buyer, but the item definitely has value) And many governments depend in part on property taxes, it would be a double crisis if a perverse stagnant housing market also bankrupted your government. The scheme for a fair nominal value assessment does seem challenging to come up with, though. Perhaps you anchor your valuations in a past year, e.g. "what this house would have sold for in 2002".
      • notahacker 10y ago
        If it's a pure property tax (as opposed to a LVT) the simplest way to do it is to either (i) let the government set the taxable valuation but oblige them to buy the house at that price (plus a premium) if the owner disputes it or (ii) let the owner value the house but grant the government the right to buy the house at that valuation (plus a premium) if they dispute the valuation. Both options have the side effect of potentially adding a bit of liquidity to the housing market in a downturn.
• the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
  Most of Europe at this point has no or almost no property tax.
  • dozzie 10y ago
    Wikipedia disagrees on "has no property tax", and it's hard to tell anything about "has almost no property tax". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom
    • dan1234 10y ago
      The UK also has a Stamp Duty tax when property is purchased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingdom#Stamp_Duty_Land_Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingd...
      • dozzie 10y ago
        Which is a tax on selling the property, not on merely owning it, and I believe it's the latter we're talking about here.
        • tome 10y ago
          > Which is a tax on selling the property, not on merely owning it FWIW it's a tax on buying, not selling, though I imagine it's much the same thing.
      • tome 10y ago
        Stamp duty is a one-off tax in the single digits (or exceptionally, in the very low double digits). This is a 2% tax per year!
    • YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
      What's even worse- in the UK everyone but full-time students has to pay council tax, which is a tax on the property you live in even if you don't own it. Try telling that to the Greeks. They think you're joking.
• simosx 10y ago
  There has been an emergency additional property tax (called ΕΝΦΙΑ) and at some point will be merged with other property taxes. For an appartment or a house, the tax amounts to about one or two months of rent, if the property was rented.
  • ferongr 10y ago
    It's not an "emergency" tax.
• return0 10y ago
  You're not wrong. Greece experienced a property bubble that is bursting painfully slowly. Homeownership is high in greece; it's part of the culture and successive governments protected it despite its heavy cost as a populist measure (e.g. by instituting laws that disallowed foreclosures). The bubble has not yet burst completely, that's why rent prices are very cheap.
  • charlesdm 10y ago
    Is it worth moving to Greece at this point if you have sufficient (ways of generating) capital to sustain your lifestyle? Or would that be a fools errand given the state of the economy?
    • nopakos 10y ago
      A lot of people are thinking to move out because of the steps backwards in all fronts such as law enforcement, health and social care quality, education quality etc. Everyday life gets worse for everybody more or less. Economy does not collapse without collateral damage.
    • return0 10y ago
      Sure it is. Greece is still a very safe country with excellent climate. Avoid athens, the overcrowded center and heavily-hit by the crisis. You will find the cost of living is very cheap for a european country (provided that you have your own source of income as you said- don't rely on finding a job here)
      • charlesdm 10y ago
        Sounds interesting. I can, but it's not much fun living in a country where very little is happening. Is there still stuff happening in Greece, or has the economy been thoroughly fucked up by the austerity measures? At first glance, for example, taxes still look low compared to other EU countries. I have a wealthy friend in the UK, and I want to a party there once thrown by some wealthy greek shipping magnates. They had sold their shipping empire for billions in 2007 and bought it back in 2012 for hundreds of millions. They left the country shortly afterwards. Have all the wealthy greeks left the country? Or is there still an opportunity to do business?
• imarg 10y ago
  In Greece, when most people refer to property taxes they mean a tax called ΕΝΦΙΑ in greek (another user already mentioned it) which is a different tax than the one you mention. ΕΝΦΙΑ is not restricted by property value (but is defined by it), meaning that even low valued properties have to pay (for houses it ranges from 2,50-16,25 €/sqm) and is a tax that was introduced at first as a "temporary" measure around 2011 or 2012 I think. The tax you mention above is a different tax that is indeed 0% for property up to €200K. Keep in mind the €200K limit is not per property but for all your properties combined.
• kkapelon 10y ago
  Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. They have a pension of 600 euros a month. My parents die. I inherit their house. The house was built in the 60's and is on an expensive island. Government says that the house values 500.000 and I get taxed even though I have no money at all on my own. Basically the Greek government is unable to tax you directly (i.e. on the money you really make) and instead tries to guess your income by looking at the house. There are several cases however where your current house says nothing about how much money you actually make.
  • nugget 10y ago
    Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?
    • kkapelon 10y ago
      Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents house for no particular reason. Also if it was that easy to move somewhere else and find a job, you would have done it already (you would not wait for the government to create this tax and then think about it) Here is a third scenario for you reading pleasure 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do?
• muse900 10y ago
  I won't agree with you just because you are presenting "some" numbers. I know for a fact that my parents that live in Greece, and do not rent and own 3 flats and 1 house all of them divided equally to a different person within the family including me have to pay an "emergency" taxation on the electrical bill which is a lot of money. (A LOT OF MONEY!) Atm my parents are pensioniers and they don't rent neither have any money in the bank. They are called out to pay 4000 euros / 2 months tax on the property they own. Eventually they will have to sell their property in order to be able to afford to live. Issue is that the market has crushed and the money they gonna make if they sell their property that has been with them from grandgrand parents and more which means sentimental value as well, is gonna be sold for pennies. The problem is that people around the world don't understand that middle class Greeks are suffering for what "RICH" Greeks and politics have caused. Sure its middle class people that voted those politicians in and didnt hang them up including rich people but meh... Seriously Rich people in Greece pay no tax and they don't care as well. Dictatorship has been governing Greece for a very long time including now. Btw sorry for coming strong on you, its just that your facts are literally off.
  • 1337biz 10y ago
    Just curious - why do they hold on to those flats if they don't rent them out?
    • muse900 10y ago
      because the flats value is 30% of what it was in 2008, while we know that 2008 and before is not coming back, they are located in Central Athens and no matter what happens in lets say 50 years from now their value might be up to what it was before. Also don't forget the sentimental value as well, my dad bought 1 of the flats himself with his hard earning while he survived the invasion of Cyprus and lost everything there. He is old as well so good luck getting him to sell the only thing he acquired in his life. Same goes for my mom, she inherited the 2 flats and the house and they belonged to her family since before WW2 for the flats and since the 1900 for the house. Very hard to sell on that. But again think even if someone more greedy that doesn't understand the sentimental value of the property gets his/her hands on it, still imagine you have to sell for 250k-300k while in 2008 it was costing 1m. Again this is just an example but it shows the price drop and again since they are in central Athens which is a city for a very long time in history at some point their prices will climb up again, not the the maximum but still.
• wutangson1 10y ago
  There are not the facts! 0% for property up to €200K, is not the case. You do pay property taxes- ENFIA.