10 ms·
Bringing Chinese Science Fiction to the West
- Hates_ 10y agoI can't recommend The Third-Body problem enough. Definitely worth reading.
- Paul_S 10y agoI want to offer a differing opinion. I found the writing terrible which is excused on account of being a translation. The alien parts are quite imaginative but the rest of the action was just too surreal to stomach. The characters are cartoonishly flat or maybe China is more alien to me than I can handle.
- analyst74 10y agoAlthough three-body trilogy is one of my most favourite sci-fi books, I think your criticism is valid. Even the Chinese version is kind of so-so in terms of character building. That's not why this book is great though, it's a hard sci-fi, and its charm is in blending imagination with science in a way that seems very plausible. It blew my mind when I realize some parts of the story which I initially assumed to be imagination turned out to have been scientifically or at least theoretically proven.
- ajmurmann 10y agoDo you mind to elaborate which pays you though were imagination but were proverb? Are you referring to the sun amplification and the way sophons are made? Those are the parts I assume(d) to be BS. The sophon thing seemed so bullshitty that it required some effort on my part to not be pulled out of the story too much by it.
- NotSammyHagar 10y agoLoved the first book. I couldn't finish the second book. It had a different translator but maybe that was why it was hard to be interested in. Also, it felt like a Russian novel in that we had to learn about what happened to your grandparents, their treatment during the counter revolution to understand what was happening to people in today's world. I found that not very persuasive in terms of character. Is that really the way people in China see the world? As an american, I do think I'm optimistic and don't want to think about how history affects people. But it does a good bit. But my forefathers were not tortured and brutalized in the same way the people in the story faced. My grandfather was in WW2, but since he came back and went to college, that made it easier for my father and me and hopefully for my son. Maybe if I was African American, I might see things differently. They certainly suffered from brutal treatment making it harder for later generations to succeed. But the novel itself, I wanted more character. Once I got the 3 body problem idea, I wanted to find out what happened in the second novel, but it was hard to be interested.
- ajmurmann 10y agoBeing European with a grandfather who was one of the few German survivors in Stalingrad, having grown up with a view of my grandparents home that had a wall that looked different than the others because it had been hit by a bomb I have a hard time relating to your argument. I do agree though that the characters and writing in general could have been stronger. That's unfortunately the trade off with hard sci-fi though. Have you read much other hard sci-fi? You typically have to read hard sci-fi for the ideas because the writhing trends to be mediocre at best. Try reading the average story in Analog and you will see what I'm talking about
- T-A 10y agoI keep seeing Three Body being called "hard sci-fi", and I can't understand why. In my vocabulary, that term means scientifically plausible or at the very least not manifestly impossible. But core elements of Three Body are just that: impossible. Even without going into the bizarre dimensional unfolding of protons (which are not even fundamental particles) to nice 2D membranes on which circuits are etched using meson beams (...), the resulting sophons are then used to communicate instantaneously over interstellar distances, courtesy of quantum entanglement. And no, that's not how quantum entanglement works; you can't use it to transfer information at superluminal speeds. The "science" in Three Body is at the level of Star Trek technobabble. It might sound sciency to laymen, but it is really just magic with a modern coat of paint.
- klipt 10y agoIt's difficult to write galaxy spanning fiction without some form of FTL communication. Even Isaac Asimov uses "ultrawave relays" in Foundation. If Foundation isn't hard sci-fi anymore, what's left? Only books like The Martian that don't leave our solar system?
- sbierwagen 10y agoThe Foundation also had psychic powers, pocket-sized nuclear reactors, and people accurately predicting political events occurring hundreds of years in the future. Just because Clarke wrote it doesn't mean it's hard SF.
- neaden 10y agoDoes hard sci-fi change over time though? I'm not sure but I would imagine that pocket-sized nuclear reactors for instance were at one time plausible, if the story was written when that was a case is it hard sci-fi? Or does it cease to be hard sci-fi as our understanding of the universe changes?
- mcguire 10y agoAsimov wrote Foundation. To tell the truth, I don't personally consider any SF Asimov wrote to be particularly "hard".
- btrautsc 10y agoI agree with the assessment of the Three-Body Problem. I was excited about the premise and I enjoyed some of the SF concepts, but really the "back-story" was IMO the interesting piece, whereas the present time "action" was quite bland. I wouldn't go so far as to not recommend, but I agree the criticism is fair.
- mnarayan01 10y agoI've been assuming that a large portion of the people giving it such high marks read it in the original Chinese. The motivations of some of the characters also seems stilted, but that's the kind of thing I would breeze over if I was sufficiently "in to it".
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jcomis 10y agoGlad I'm not the only one...
- finnh 10y agothank you, i couldn't agree more. The entire first book was boring. People playing a contrived video game! which sounds boring! but they are strangely fascinated! The very first chapter, introducing the characters during the cultural revolution, was good but the rest ... not so good. (retreats to Iain M Banks & Gene Wolfe)
- girzel 10y agoFlat characters, unfortunately, are a regular feature of Chinese fiction, and not just sci-fi (though worse in sci-fi). In fact, most of the complaints about Three Body on this page (weird story structuring, awkward language, huge plot twists in the space of one or two sentences) are broadly applicable to contemporary Chinese fiction in general. If anyone's interested in more Chinese sci-fi, Clarkesworld has been mentioned. I also produce a literary journal of Chinese fiction in translation, called Pathlight, and we did one issue based on sci-fi, with I think some really excellent stories in it. I wonder if posting a link to what is essentially my own product is frowned upon here... Well, hell with it. Here's the ebook if anyone's interested: https://www.amazon.com/Pathlight-Spring-2013-Alice-Xin-ebook/dp/B00D1X7F38/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2 https://www.amazon.com/Pathlight-Spring-2013-Alice-Xin-ebook...
- WaxProlix 10y agoI think people are usually cool with it if there's full disclosure up front. Nobody wants to feel manipulated, but most folks on HN appreciate a timely plug when they see one.
- erikb 10y agoIf that is true, then why are people reading Chinese fiction? What do they do better than the western alternatives?
- Barrin92 10y agoTalking about the Three Body Series specifically, the sheer scope and the lucidity of the writing was pretty breathtaking. Cixin Liu is like a Chinese Arthur C. Clarke, his novels are just overflowing with ideas. Haven't read anything like it since Clarke or Asimov in Western Science Fiction, with the exception of Ted Chiang.
- blacksmith_tb 10y agoHmm, comparing Liu to Clarke is fair, but I don't think it's so hard to find more recent western SF bristling with ideas, Iain Banks, for example. Liu does have a very different feel (the 'different perspective') other commenters have mentioned, which certainly makes it worth a read, in spite of the flatness of characters etc. Some of it may be down to the translator, I found Dark Forest to be much more fun, though some of that is developments in the plot, not just Ken Liu's translation, I'm sure.
- wangii 10y agoI think best Sci-Fi books are like unicorn startups: exceptionally good at one aspect while chaotic in the others parts.
- lmm 10y agoI found it awful. It took too long to get anywhere, and nothing happened when it did - most of the pages are spent on characters, but the characters aren't interesting. I don't get what people see in it.
- jordache 10y agoi agree. It was a pretty bad book
- arbitrage 10y agoWarning, autoplaying video
- Pica_soO 10y agoLet me guess, the hero, by becoming individual has to be punished for his falling astray and breaking the rules of society and die lonely and hopeless. Cant have all those youngsters running wild and destabilize society with new things, no matter how destabilizing society standing for itself is already. Is there chinese SciFi that brakes out of the cliche that most west exported chinese movies locked themselves into? (Hero as prime Exampel)
- captainmuon 10y agoI'd be surprized if most (popular) sci fi from China would be like that. Likewise, not all American sci fi is like Heinlein or Ayn Rand.
- Jedd 10y agoThat's a bit cynical I think. I've read the first two of the Three Body problem series, and part of the delight is the way it highlights (by contrast) the various cultural assumptions made by the sci-fi authors I normally read (a weirdly large proportion of whom are Scottish). But comparison aside, it's a really good read. Empires of the Deep[1] may break out of the cliche you speak of, but I haven't seen it (and it's unlikely any of us ever will). There was a superb story about the not-quite-making of this film on HN a few months ago[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empires_of_the_Deep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empires_of_the_Deep [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766319
- pault 10y agoI assume you are referring to Banks? What other Scottish SF writers would you recommend?
- notahacker 10y agoThere's always HN's very own Charles Stross I also immediately thought of Ian MacDonald and Paul McAuley, but neither of them are actually Scottish
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- searine 10y agoI really enjoyed The Three-Body Problem/The Dark Forest/Death's End and highly recommend them because of their unusual ideas. It was also refreshing to read a book coming from totally different cultural mindset that goes after familiar sci-fi goals. We all have biases and failures in our perspective, and it was interesting read a novel where the authors biases were so different from my own. Liu seemed bipolar in his treatment of women for example. Half the women presented felt vibrant (Ye Wenjie for example) while others, such as Luo Ji's perfect wife were fanfiction quality. Overall, the ideas presented in The Three Body Problem and The Dark Forest are thought-provoking enough to recommend these books. Death's End on the other hand, was mediocre but worth a read just to finish the series.
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- russnewcomer 10y agoThe City Trilogy ( https://www.amazon.com/Trilogy-Modern-Chinese-Literature-Taiwan/dp/0231128525 https://www.amazon.com/Trilogy-Modern-Chinese-Literature-Tai... ) is my personal favorite Chinese/Taiwanese SF story. Some people I've recommended it to pass on it because of some of the translation issues[0], but if you read Romance of the Three Kingdoms and you've read a decent amount of translated work already[1], The City Trilogy is a work on that can be enjoyed on levels like Star Wars or Dune. (and I make that broad comparison intentionally) [0]A couple of key word choices, most prominently galaxies instead of what should really be systems or planets. the translator made can really pop literal minded people out of the story, and I think that you have to have the mindset that the composition of language is better and more evocative in the original than the translation. [1] I've found, totally anecdotally, that a few of my Christian friends who have spent a good chunk of their reading time reading translations are able to enjoy translated works better than those who have not. I've also found, again anecdotally, that few people like the first few translated works they read, and enjoy the later ones better.
- chadgeidel 10y agoYour point 0 is one of the reasons I struggle with reading foreign (currently - Russian) SF [0]. I feel like the original author's intent isn't coming through. I still enjoy "non-western" SF for the perspective it brings. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Red-Star-Tales-Century-Russian/dp/188010038X https://www.amazon.com/Red-Star-Tales-Century-Russian/dp/188...
- jobigoud 10y agoImagine the epiphany striking us non-native English speakers when we realize at some point during teenagehood that almost all the Sci-Fi we've been reading thus far wasn't the author's actual words.
- JadeNB 10y ago> [1] I've found, totally anecdotally, that a few of my Christian friends who have spent a good chunk of their reading time reading translations are able to enjoy translated works better than those who have not. I don't mean to be overly PC or anything, but the word 'Christian' seems to have nothing to do with the rest of the sentence. Is it just a true characterisation that has no effect on their enjoyment, or do Christians somehow have more (or less) difficulty with translated works than non-Christians? (Or was it maybe a typo?)
- d0100 10y agoAbsolute travesty that the immense amateur translation scene wasn't mentioned in the article. Chinese web novels that are 1000+ chapters long, with around 2000 characters per chapter, are being actively translated by a growing translation community. If you like flat characters and lot's of humor and adventure, you should check out /r/noveltranslations
- hijonathan 10y agoThe characters may seem flat, but that's just one perspective. I recently finished all three books and can attest that more nuanced, multi-dimensional characters do appear later in the series, though there are also even flatter ones as well, so perhaps it's a wash. Highly recommend the audio book versions on Audible. Great narration.
- akozak 10y agoI think it's cultural, not a matter of translation. Readers in the west will have less access to stereotypes and tropes that all authors rely on, to some extent.
- crimsonalucard 10y agoChinese wuxia (kung fu mythology) is already a hugely interesting genre that many westerners miss out on.
- whack 10y agoGreat timing. I literally just 2 hours ago finished reading Three Body Problem, a sci-fi book mentioned in the article. The description of sci-fi books, not as predictions about the future, but as allegories for the present, is dead on. As someone who virtually always reads western books by western authors, Three Body Problem was one of the best books I've read this year. It was gripping, suspenseful, intelligent, and most interestingly, offered a perspective of the world that differs dramatically from that found in western books. I think a truly global literary scene, featuring writers, ideas and perspectives from all over the world, has the potential to usher in the next golden age of literature.
- twhid 10y agoCurrently reading Three Body Problem and agree on all points.
- Mieaou 10y agoIs there a TL;DR version?
- paavokoya 10y agoThat's called a summary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem
- curiousgal 10y agoStrange times we live in.
- pizza 10y agoThis seems very interesting! Thanks for linking the summary. I was intrigued by GP comment but this was the catalyst I needed to peruse. Thanks.
- option 10y agoread it a year ago. now reading "dark forest" - sequel to 3-body. I agree, both are excellent books, but now "dramatically" different from western scifi
- boznz 10y agoThe poor Chinese seem to be the protagonists in a lot of recent American Authored SciFi, maybe there will be some pay back :-) I Personally find big corporation baddies more believable and readable.
- guyzero 10y agoI think you mean antagonists? And yes, but the few ones I've read are pretty heavy-handed and it's pretty terribly done.
- jordache 10y agoAm I the only one who was wholeheartedly underwhelmed by the Three Body Problem? I did get through it but I consider it a waste of my time. The only good part of the story was the mysterious count down timer.
- andrewfong 10y agoDid anyone else not enjoy the actual writing in Three Body Problem? I enjoyed the book from a speculative science and "well this is different" perspective, but the writing style and plotting were very difficult to parse through. "Show-not-tell" isn't much followed. Character development is light, to say the least. Most of the story takes place from the perspective of one of two characters, but then there's one incredibly jarring chapter where the author goes, "Oh by the way, I'm sharing a bunch of classified documents with the reader that neither character has ever seen." And apart from scenes with a single non-viewpoint character (the cop), most of the dialogue sounds more like a post-modern philosophy lecture than actual conversation between real people. Some of this could just be cultural differences between Western and Chinese writing styles, or maybe things got lost in translation. I haven't read enough Chinese literature to say though. For those who have read more, would you say Three Body Problem is typical of modern Chinese writing, or Chinese science fiction?
- trhway 10y ago>"Show-not-tell" isn't much followed. man, while that approach has it merits, i sometimes bored to death and drowning in American ("Show-not-tell" is taught here a lot starting from beginning of K12 and it is taught like it it the _only_ way) novels'/stories' showing and showing and showing all these details with telling almost nothing. Even Stephenson's works - i can't get more than a few tens of the pages in one sitting even though i do like his work. Again, it isn't about _all_ American writing, mostly about modern :) I mean just look at Asimov's Foundation - 100% tell, no show. Well, may be it is a bit dry for that reason, 5% of show wouldn't hurt :) Yet it is an example that "Show-not-tell" is just a tool which has its limited domain and which should not be enforced like orthodoxy (as far as i see, be it arts, science, etc. - wherever/whenever orthodoxy appears the art or science disappears there) Btw, i'm a Russian (and do love a lot of American writing, especially SF and for the reasons mentioned above mostly buy American modern short SF where tell/show ratio is usually higher because of the short form limitation i guess :)
- pmoriarty 10y agoWas Asimov successful because he was telling and not showing, or despite it? Would his works have been even better had he shown more and told less?
- pmontra 10y agoThe collection includes Folding Beijing. It won the Hugo award this year and it's available freely online at http://uncannymagazine.com/article/folding-beijing-2/ http://uncannymagazine.com/article/folding-beijing-2/
- Dowwie 10y agoIf you are going to read one sci-fi book this year, read "Ready Player One" or "The Martian". Don't waste your hours on Cixin Liu. :)