7 ms·

>The core issue with USB-C is confusion: Not every USB-C cable, port, device, and power supply will be compatible Not every USB-A port, device, cable, and powe

by tw04 10y ago

>The core issue with USB-C is confusion: Not every USB-C cable, port, device, and power supply will be compatible Not every USB-A port, device, cable, and power supply are compatible. I'm not sure I understand what his point is. That people who refuse to do research are going to occasionally run into incompatibility problems? Like they have since the dawn of the computing age? And?

gaius 10y ago
The consequence of this incompatibility is damage to the host device; that's what's new. Never an issue with RS232!
- rictic 10y ago
  As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage. If everything is in spec then the worst case is just reduced performance or the connection not working. I'd add that – IMO – if an out of spec cable causes damage, then the cable manufacturer should be held responsible. I'm sure that an out of spec USB 2 cable can cause damage as well.
  - lh7777 10y ago
    Right -- it's cables that do not comply with the USB-C spec that can cause damage. It's not as if plugging a Thunderbolt 3 device into a laptop that doesn't support Thunderbolt will damage the laptop. It just won't work.
    - notatoad 10y ago
      and trying to argue that out-of-spec cables causing damage to your computer is a deficiency in the spec makes about as much sense as saying the etherkiller demonstrates a problem with the RJ45 spec. (http://etherkiller.org/ http://etherkiller.org/)
  - gaius 10y ago
    As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage But see http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-regulation/apple-sues-amazon-supplier-over-fake-iphone-chargers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-...
  - Bluestrike2 10y ago
    The out of spec cable problem is slowly beginning to resolve itself. Major online retailers, starting with Amazon, seem to be taking action. Between that and possible product liability issues for bad cables (though that's more hope than anything likely for various reasons), we can expect cable manufacturers to get with the program by the time USB-C is further mainstream. Right now, aside from some brand-new Android devices, USB-C is still trickling in on laptops and other devices. The really crazy thing is that there's very little reason to build crappy cables. Per unit, your savings from cutting major corners are as close to zero as you can get. Judging by Benson Leung's Surjtech[0] testing woes, even cutting out any QA testing to save money wouldn't be sufficient to explain all of the cable problems. QA testing certainly can't explain how you can completely forget to wire in the SuperSpeed wires despite labeling it as such. That's not the sort of thing to happen as a one-off. Losing your sales channels, facing potential class action lawsuits, and seeing your brand dragged through the mud all add up to far more significant costs. The biggest problem, IMO, will be when USB-C becomes prevalent enough that we see the $1 cables in checkout lines and gas stations. If there's anywhere we're going to see bad cables being hocked, it's there. Hopefully by that point, manufacturers will have gotten burned enough that good QA will become the norm. 0. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/google-engineer-finds-usb-type-c-cable-thats-so-bad-it-fried-his-chromebook-pixel/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/google-engineer-finds...
- weinzierl 10y ago
  Hmm, don't get me started on standards conformant +12V/-12V RS232 and common 0/5V TTL RS232.
- deelowe 10y ago
  RS232 is a protocol, not a port. Rj45 is a port that rs232 uses and if you confuse that with ethernet, you will definitely damage something.
  - gaius 10y ago
    But not by using the "wrong" cable. The cables for RS232 and ethernet alike are passive.
    - e12e 10y ago
      PowerOverEthernet might be a surprise for a rs232 device.
      - gaius 10y ago
        Like what happened to R2D2 on Cloud City.
      - deelowe 10y ago
        Correct. I was referring to POE scenarios.
- mycall 10y ago
  Unless the pins were wired wrong.
chx 10y ago
> Not every USB-A port, device, cable, and power supply are compatible. While strictly true and you could drag up some pretty bad abuses of USB A especially as used for mobile charging, the peripherals / protocols usually just work. But here, if you have a cable in your hand with a USB-C and a DisplayPort connector it's pretty much anyone's guess whether a) it'll work with the given machine at all b) if it does, which version of DP will be supported with the given machine.
- pixelcloud 10y ago
  Now imagine the future abuses to USB-C :)
- tw04 10y ago
  So you'd rather have 8 different standards? I know I love having to have a DVI, displayport, VGA, and HDMI adapter in my bag in order to have my bases covered for presentations. I'm confused the scenario you're imagining in which someone both doesn't have their own, known good cable, and also is in a place that doesn't provide a cable, where displayport would even come into play. I can think of exactly 0. If the projector needs a displayport capable usb-c, it's going to already be attached to the projector. If I need one for home, I'm going to buy one that supports it.
  - lmm 10y ago
    > So you'd rather have 8 different standards? I know I love having to have a DVI, displayport, VGA, and HDMI adapter in my bag in order to have my bases covered for presentations. If there are 8 different cable types I'd rather have 8 different connectors, yes. Remember going around the office asking to borrow a cable to charge your 'phone and having to figure out micro vs mini vs sony's weird thing vs apple's weird thing? It was a bit silly but at least having physically different connectors meant that you could tell whether a given cable would charge your phone or not. Now it sounds like that's no longer true.
sfoskett 10y ago
The point is that due to the much better backward compatibility and do-it-all nature of USB Type-C, consumers are much more likely to run into incompatible devices and cables than ever before. Walk into any store and you'll see dozens of cables and peripherals that look the same but perform differently (or not at all) based on a confusing array of protocols and standards. It's true that USB has always been a bit confusing, but now we have many, many more incompatibilities to worry about.

by tw04 10y ago

gaius 10y ago

The consequence of this incompatibility is damage to the host device; that's what's new. Never an issue with RS232!

rictic 10y ago
As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage. If everything is in spec then the worst case is just reduced performance or the connection not working. I'd add that – IMO – if an out of spec cable causes damage, then the cable manufacturer should be held responsible. I'm sure that an out of spec USB 2 cable can cause damage as well.
- lh7777 10y ago
  Right -- it's cables that do not comply with the USB-C spec that can cause damage. It's not as if plugging a Thunderbolt 3 device into a laptop that doesn't support Thunderbolt will damage the laptop. It just won't work.
  - notatoad 10y ago
    and trying to argue that out-of-spec cables causing damage to your computer is a deficiency in the spec makes about as much sense as saying the etherkiller demonstrates a problem with the RJ45 spec. (http://etherkiller.org/ http://etherkiller.org/)
- gaius 10y ago
  As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage But see http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-regulation/apple-sues-amazon-supplier-over-fake-iphone-chargers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-...
- Bluestrike2 10y ago
  The out of spec cable problem is slowly beginning to resolve itself. Major online retailers, starting with Amazon, seem to be taking action. Between that and possible product liability issues for bad cables (though that's more hope than anything likely for various reasons), we can expect cable manufacturers to get with the program by the time USB-C is further mainstream. Right now, aside from some brand-new Android devices, USB-C is still trickling in on laptops and other devices. The really crazy thing is that there's very little reason to build crappy cables. Per unit, your savings from cutting major corners are as close to zero as you can get. Judging by Benson Leung's Surjtech[0] testing woes, even cutting out any QA testing to save money wouldn't be sufficient to explain all of the cable problems. QA testing certainly can't explain how you can completely forget to wire in the SuperSpeed wires despite labeling it as such. That's not the sort of thing to happen as a one-off. Losing your sales channels, facing potential class action lawsuits, and seeing your brand dragged through the mud all add up to far more significant costs. The biggest problem, IMO, will be when USB-C becomes prevalent enough that we see the $1 cables in checkout lines and gas stations. If there's anywhere we're going to see bad cables being hocked, it's there. Hopefully by that point, manufacturers will have gotten burned enough that good QA will become the norm. 0. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/google-engineer-finds-usb-type-c-cable-thats-so-bad-it-fried-his-chromebook-pixel/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/google-engineer-finds...
weinzierl 10y ago
Hmm, don't get me started on standards conformant +12V/-12V RS232 and common 0/5V TTL RS232.
deelowe 10y ago
RS232 is a protocol, not a port. Rj45 is a port that rs232 uses and if you confuse that with ethernet, you will definitely damage something.
- gaius 10y ago
  But not by using the "wrong" cable. The cables for RS232 and ethernet alike are passive.
  - e12e 10y ago
    PowerOverEthernet might be a surprise for a rs232 device.
    - gaius 10y ago
      Like what happened to R2D2 on Cloud City.
    - deelowe 10y ago
      Correct. I was referring to POE scenarios.
mycall 10y ago
Unless the pins were wired wrong.

chx 10y ago

> Not every USB-A port, device, cable, and power supply are compatible. While strictly true and you could drag up some pretty bad abuses of USB A especially as used for mobile charging, the peripherals / protocols usually just work. But here, if you have a cable in your hand with a USB-C and a DisplayPort connector it's pretty much anyone's guess whether a) it'll work with the given machine at all b) if it does, which version of DP will be supported with the given machine.

pixelcloud 10y ago
Now imagine the future abuses to USB-C :)
tw04 10y ago
So you'd rather have 8 different standards? I know I love having to have a DVI, displayport, VGA, and HDMI adapter in my bag in order to have my bases covered for presentations. I'm confused the scenario you're imagining in which someone both doesn't have their own, known good cable, and also is in a place that doesn't provide a cable, where displayport would even come into play. I can think of exactly 0. If the projector needs a displayport capable usb-c, it's going to already be attached to the projector. If I need one for home, I'm going to buy one that supports it.
- lmm 10y ago
  > So you'd rather have 8 different standards? I know I love having to have a DVI, displayport, VGA, and HDMI adapter in my bag in order to have my bases covered for presentations. If there are 8 different cable types I'd rather have 8 different connectors, yes. Remember going around the office asking to borrow a cable to charge your 'phone and having to figure out micro vs mini vs sony's weird thing vs apple's weird thing? It was a bit silly but at least having physically different connectors meant that you could tell whether a given cable would charge your phone or not. Now it sounds like that's no longer true.

sfoskett 10y ago

The point is that due to the much better backward compatibility and do-it-all nature of USB Type-C, consumers are much more likely to run into incompatible devices and cables than ever before. Walk into any store and you'll see dozens of cables and peripherals that look the same but perform differently (or not at all) based on a confusing array of protocols and standards. It's true that USB has always been a bit confusing, but now we have many, many more incompatibilities to worry about.