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As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-
by bisby 10y ago
As a vim user, esc is pretty important.
I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs:
"The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope."
Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that theyve been going with lower and lower power to allow for better battery life, this is a terrible way to make the comparison. Id much rather see a processor comparison graph here).
Personally I think this is a terrible decision, but then again, I think using a laptop keyboard for programming is a terrible decision too. I need multiple monitors and an external keyboard to get anything done, so I typically use a desktop, and then use a lightweight laptop (basically a chromebook) to remote into the desktop if I absolutely need to be mobile.
Also, "What other people are saying" and then listing 4 anecdotal quotes seems pretty uncompelling.
I imagine this is not a great developer's laptop. But apple fanboys will keep buying it and either stop using vim just so they can keep using apple or buy an external keyboard. And Im really not sure what else you could really want out of a laptop then.
- trevor-e 10y agoI think rather than stop using vim people will remap the ESC key to something else, like caps lock, which many already do.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- boardwaalk 10y agohttp://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key
- blowski 10y agoMy laptop should work the way I want it to, not the other way around.
- lucisferre 10y agoThen just map Esc to Caps Lock if you like. Unless you feel Caps Lock is still critical for commenting on YouTube videos, in that case I guess the new MBP is just a useless paperweight.
- blowski 10y agoNope - at the moment, my CAPS lock does nothing. But I'm not going to adjust my habit of where to find the ESC key just so I can have some pointless colourful lights.
- comex 10y agoInstead you could adjust your habit of where to find the ESC key for the sake of ergonomics (Caps Lock is much bigger and closer), like I did years ago, and take the colorful lights as a bonus.
- blowski 10y agoWhat about the fact that I frequently jump between machines, many of which aren't mine? It's the same as people telling me to learn the Dvorak layout. Any possible productivity gains are lost in forever remembering what keyboard I'm on.
- EugeneOZ 10y agoIt will not remap his muscle memory.
- palunon 10y agoIf it's a key you use frequently, and no longer have the other option, muscle memory isn't that hard to retrain.
- EugeneOZ 10y agoYou're wrong. Muscle memory is very hard to retrain. To buy laptop with esc button is much more easy. It will be just not MacBook Pro, but it's their problems.
- varunmved 10y ago+1 I don't touch the escape key and I've used vim for quite some time.
- nogbit 10y agoBy default, when in command-line mode CTRL[[ is the same as escape and when in insert mode CTRL[ is the same as escape.
- denzil_correa 10y ago> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. Would it not be possible to map the dynamic touchbar keys to Esc when one is using vim?
- jljljl 10y agoDuring the demo, they showed an Esc key in the touch bar when using Terminal and a few other apps
- denzil_correa 10y agoPretty much. I am struggling to understand the issue here.
- falcolas 10y agoThree points: The escape key is not where it is normally. The escape key is not present in all contextual operations (that is, you can open up a menu on the touchbar which causes the escape key to disappear in favor of a "close" button). There is no physical feedback that you've hit escape.
- jljljl 10y agoI will admit, the lack of taptic feedback on the touch bar is surprising to me, given it's presence in the touchpad
- denzil_correa 10y agoThe only thing I can accept is the lack of feedback. As long as the Escape keys exist when required, why worry about when they don't?
- falcolas 10y agoFor me? Because I can't tell without looking at the keyboard whether it exists or not (and potentially whether it's been moved by some program's integration with the touchbar). I've been touch typing for years now, and the idea that I have to look down at the keyboard to see if a key exists (a key that that has existed for the entirety of my computing history) is ludicrous.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y agoI really like laptops for research and prototype stages of programming: my Macbook works great at finding, curating, reading, and composing documents; handling email, IM, VOIP, VPNs, etc to actually communicate with services; dealing with internet search and websites for services (github, aws, etc); and I find that I even do better at writing "naive" implementations of things with just some paper and a laptop at a coffee shop, because it forces me to skip over most of the technical details (eg, efficient file IO) and just write the essence of the program (ie, the main algorithm or idea I'm trying to implement). For actually writing a finished production-ready product, a desktop with several monitors and a real keyboard is preferred. But being able to switch between the two modes -- research and creative, focused and technical -- gets the best results.
- melling 10y agoDo you mean Ctrl-[? The ESC key in vim can lead to RSI: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11443012/how-to-remap-keyboard-keys-to-avoid-rsi-in-vim http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11443012/how-to-remap-key...
- falcolas 10y agoSo can repeated use of keyboard chords. Not to mention the absolute position and shape of the control key can change based on the type of keyboard you're using (such as wired apple keyboard vs. wireless vs. built-in).
- readitmeow 10y agoWhat does an external keyboard give you that you can't get from a laptop keyboard? I like the macbook pro keyboard. I plug in two monitors and I'm good to go. Vim users should remap somewhere closer. I use cap locks. Will that not be possible anymore?
- ageektrapped 10y agoExtra space and ergonomics to keep coding into my seventies is why I use an external keyboard. I'm in my thirties currently. Maybe by the time I'm 70 I'll be talking to my computers, but still: why wreck my wrists?
- Vexs 10y agoThe big obvious difference is the numpad, or lack thereof. Plus, mechanical keyboards are a lot more comfortable I find. I know they're a bit of a meme right now, but I definitely prefer them over tiny short press chiclet keys.
- reboog711 10y agoFor me; I use a mechanical keyboard; and have not found a laptop w/ a keyboard that offers that same feel. However, that is a preference; when traveling I have no issues doing work while using a laptop keyboard.
- justinmayer 10y agoNot only is it possible, but Apple supports mapping Caps Lock to Escape by default as of macOS Sierra 10.12.1: https://i.imgur.com/2oMcDRg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2oMcDRg.jpg
- elcritch 10y agoIt'd be awesome if the caps lock key was led screen as well and showed it's current mapping. That'd be pretty sweet.
- jablan 10y agoFor me personally, Home, End, PgUp and PgDown keys. Also, MX switches. I can work without them, but I really think my tools should adapt to me, rather than vice versa.
- Spartan-S63 10y agoAs a fellow Vim user, I don't use the escape key anymore. It's awkward to hit and I rebind it to "jj" (or more recently "jk"). It's unergonomic to reach for the escape key where it customarily is. If it were where Caps Lock is, it would make much more sense. That said, I don't like rotating my hand or remove my fingers from the home row. It's really a non-issue because you can rebind keys so easily, it's not even funny. Everyone seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.
- 43812912 10y agoVim user here. I use the ESC key; I can hit it in a fluent motion while lifting the hand completely off the home row (much like a pianist). It gives an opportunity to relax the hand. For the same reason I'm not a fan of hjkl and often use the arrow keys.
- grardb 10y agoThis. I never "learned" how to type, and while I've tried, I simple can't get rid of almost 20 years of muscle memory typing like a buffoon. It's much easier for me to use ESC and the arrow keys than people who keep their hands on the home row.
- the_watcher 10y ago> If it were where Caps Lock is, it would make much more sense. You can remap your key bindings to exactly this layout using Karabiner-Elements.
- wrs 10y agoIn fact, Karabiner can map caps lock to both control (if you use it with another key) and escape (if you just press it). Which is fantastic.
- teilo 10y agoNo, not in Sierra, because Karabiner classic does not work in Sierra. Karabiner-Elements, which is Sierra-only, can only do basic key remapping. None of the fancy stuff.
- Evansbee 10y agoinoreamp jj <ESC> This has made my life so much better.
- kmicklas 10y ago> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. Only if you're too lazy to rebind it to any of the many more finger friendly options.
- asimpletune 10y ago> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. So then wouldn't the esc be present on Touch Bar? It's not like it's the "useless stuff" bar.
- johnsonsc2 10y agoYes, though having it be a physical key is also ... ummm ... key.
- asimpletune 10y agoGood joke. Ok but you haven't used it yet, just ease up, it might be great!
- the_watcher 10y agoRemap caps lock to escape. Karabiner-Elements can do this (Karabiner for pre-macOS).
- woah 10y agoI use a 12 inch MacBook on my lap in an office where I could have any number of external monitors. I'm quite productive.
- lostlogin 10y agoMy neck hurts and wrists cramp at this thought, at least put it on a desk!
- lostlogin 10y agoMy neck hurts and wrists cramp at this thought, at least put it on a desk!
- troyvit 10y agoSimilar here. When my coworkers have to detach from their 23" monitors they say they're no longer able to do anything but email and chat. I have a guy who won't WFH because work won't buy him a monitor for it.
- lucisferre 10y agoI nearly exclusively use VIm and any other editor I use has a VIm mode plugin installed. I pretty much can't work productively in anything else. I can tell you that I haven't used Esc in ages. I have Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl (as it is a vastly more useful a key than Esc and Caps Lock is a much better position for it and is just as an extraneous as Esc is). I use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-[ to exit insert mode and it works just fine. In fact I understand that most experienced VIm users do this. Esc is, by and large a useless key. Even if it wasn't you can remap keys as you like so feel free to map Esc to Caps Lock if you want. Taken alone the lack of Esc and Fn keys is not an argument against the design of the new MBP for developers.
- mozumder 10y agoSame. Been using vi as my primary command-line editor for 25+ years, and have never used the ESC key, and just use the default setup. I don't even know what commands would use the ESC key?
- zzzcpan 10y agoESC key is the default in vim, most vim users do use it.
- mgkimsal 10y agoThanks for some sanity. The other anecdote is I've been using vim for about 15 years, and use esc daily. I am constantly in multiple vim environments - different servers, different clients, different OS, etc. I don't have the luxury of saying "I'm going to install all my default vim keybindings and plugins on every vim installation I ever use". Walking someone else over the phone who has to do vim - I need to count on some standard defaults being there, and 'esc' is one. So yeah - some of you "power users" - fine - you've never touched ESC in 20 years - good for you. You're in the minority.
- mdemare 10y agoThere are several built-in ways to get from insert mode to normal mode in vim, only one of which has now been removed. Vim users that use escape to leave insert mode are not exactly a majority of Mac users. Also, many people have been complaining about the location of Escape for such an important command. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4416512/why-use-esc-in-vim/4416543#4416543 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4416512/why-use-esc-in-vi... Having said that, I use Escape myself in Vim - you know what? I'll adapt. This has nothing to do with the new MBP being unsuitable for developers. This is about power users being forced to abandon ingrained habits.
- rbanffy 10y ago> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I am pretty sure that when you open a terminal, esc and function keys will be up there. It'll not be a mechanical key, but I'm sure it'll still work.
- falcolas 10y agoIn their presentation, Terminal had some contextual functionality mapped to it, including a tray which slid out and hid the escape key. So no, by default, you will not get the F keys when you open Terminal.
- Veen 10y agoI wonder if any of the people watched the demo. They showcased Terminal, and there was an escape key on the touch bar. They also specifically said pressing the "fn"'key would show function keys on the touch bar, which is exactly what you have to do on current Apple keyboards to use the function keys. It seems like a non-issue to me unless people simply don't like the touch bar not being physical keys, which is fine, because they can just get the other Pro without it.
- rbanffy 10y agoI haven't. I based my prediction on the assumption Apple engineers are not stupid. For what I observe, it's quite the opposite. The bar's function varies according to the application being used. It should be trivial to make, say, iTerm, which is immensely popular (I use it myself) have Esc and function keys available by default. I imagine Cathode (http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/ http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/), another favorite of mine, will have beautiful function keys. > because they can just get the other Pro without it. Plus, it's cheaper.
- kentt 10y ago>As a vim user, esc is pretty important. If you're a Vim user and have escape as one of the keys farthest away from you, they did you a favour. I don't mean that as a defence of the MacBook Pro. At the very least, switch caps lock and escape if you're not using caps lock for something else.
- paavokoya 10y agoBut apple fanboys will keep buying it It's extremely patronizing and dismissive to insinuate that only "apple fanboys" buy macbook pros. There are plenty of reasons to buy an apple laptop without being a "fanboy". Searching for the best laptop leads many to apple simply because of logistics/price/ease-of-use. That said, most of the other stuff you say is true.
- marrs 10y agoTo be honest, there aren't that many and they're becoming fewer and further apart.
- bisby 10y agoMy point was more that there are people who buy Apple regardless of quality or features. If you buy Apple because it's the best for you, go for it. I agree that they are quality built laptops. You don't find people who are dedicated to buy only Dell laptops even if something negative happens. There are no Dell fanboys (that I've ever encountered). If Dell does something stupid, people will buy ASUS, HP, Samsung, Toshiba, Lenovo, etc and get basically the same experience. The point was less that ONLY fanboys buy macbook pros, but moreso that Apple has a large enough loyal fanbase that they can basically do whatever, and people will defend the decision. You will hear people say that 16gb of RAM is a non-issue and if you need more than that you are doing it wrong. That is a fanboy response. A logical response is "I don't need 16gb of RAM, but I'm not everyone, so I'm not going to start a debate over this"
- heyts 10y agoThe interesting thing is that Apple just released the ability to remap Caps-Lock to Esc. natively in macOS 10.12.1, which doesn't seem to be incidental. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818839
- GrinningFool 10y agoI find it interesting and perhaps a bit telling that the most common response to the Esc key portion of this post is remap/use a different key binding. How is that a reasonable response? To me, the reasonable response would be, "I remap/whatever, but maybe it's best if you look at a different platform where this isn't a concern." Or, "I can see how that's a problem, here's what I do." We do have some responses in the 'reasonable' category, by we also have replies like "Esc is, by and large a useless key." and "It's really a non-issue because you can rebind keys so easily, it's not even funny" and "the ESC key in vim can lead to RSI" and "Only if you're too lazy to rebind it to any of the many more finger friendly options". All of them saying, "You're doing it wrong" - even if not in so many words. Telling someone they're wrong to dislike a specific change because a workaround happens to exist says to me that you're making a whole lot of assumptions about other people based on what works for you at best, and being patronizing at worst.
- lambda 10y agoThe processor speed is less important to me. But the lack of more than 16 GB of RAM is a serious problem. As a developer, I frequently run a large number of VMs at once. My current laptop has 16 GB of RAM, and I frequently need more to run all of the VMs that I need, so I wind up having to use my workstation with has 32 GB of RAM, and just connect to that remotely when I'm on my laptop. That's cumbersome and doesn't work well when I'm on the road in places with flaky connectivity (I travel a lot, as I work remotely and come into the office, so being able to do all of my work on my laptop would be a big win). The escape key issue doesn't bother me as much, but I'm not a Vim user and I already have Caps Lock mapped to escape or control depending on whether it's a modifier or not. I do use the function keys occasionally in cross-platform development tools like gitk, but I'm sure that other keybindings can be substituted and I'd be able to deal with that. But the lack of RAM beyond 16 GB pretty much means there's no reason for me to upgrade from my 3 year old laptop. I would have considered upgrading this cycle if they offered more RAM, but as it is I'll probably hold off. Maybe if they release another in a year or so with more RAM I'll upgrade; if not, I may just switch to a Lenovo or other laptop that has more expansion room. 3 years without a bump in RAM capacity seems like an awful lot. I realize that Moore's Law is flattening out, but stagnating for 3 years like this seems like a long time.