9 ms·

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I witnessed an example of thi

by NTDF9 10y ago

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band. In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc. While this feedback raises self-esteem with positive feedback, there is no criticism of where they failed...at all!! Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"? When these same kids go for a "real" performance/audition, they suck at it, fail miserably and thus causing anti-social behaviors, anger, and in extreme cases, suicides. I personally believe in a system of constructive criticism where positive feedback is necessary for the kids, yet someone actually tells them that they can do better in this, this and this area. Irrationally high/low self-esteem is a bane for competition.

jug5 10y ago
As a whole they have become one of the most cowardly cultures.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked" That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism.
- NTDF9 10y ago
  >> That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism. A constructive criticism isn't a one-liner on HN. If you're skilled enough to show how that transition works, show it to them and make them learn it.
  - cwbrandsma 10y ago
    I think I understand what you are saying...but at the same time, given the example 6stringmerc used, there is nothing to "teach", the student has to practice more. That isn't teachable, the skill is only achieved via practice and work. (I give guitar lesions) Which we, as a society, also seem reluctant to do. "oh you must not be good at that, try something else", instead of "if you want it you are going to have to work harder"
    - maroonblazer 10y ago
      >guitar lesions I'm changing the name of my band to this. ;-)
  - civilian 10y ago
    So, guitar is tough. Because it's not that you can teach someone how to do a G-C chord transition. There's no theory or understanding that goes into it. It's muscle memory, plain and simple. You just have to do it a lot, over and over. I've had music teachers essentially say "that part sucked, you need to spend more time practicing it". There's no trick to be told, there's no intellectualization that will help. Practice.
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  It might not sound like it but it actually is quite helpful - translated it means "you are not doing well at a very basic thing and need more practice" because if a guitarist, on stage, can't hit a G-C chord switch competently, then there's really not a lot of wiggle room. They...suck...and need to be shown ways to improve. A lot of times the self-esteem-based response will dismiss the criticism as 'being mean' or some crap when it's actually totally valid.
  - sliverstorm 10y ago
    Do they not know they blew the chord switch? It seems like they'd know that.
    - abstractbeliefs 10y ago
      Probably not - you're supposed to hone your craft through practice before you perform in the way that was described. If the overall performance was poor, and something so basic was clearly an issue, then maybe they don't realise? This is like a development candidate being poor at simple interview problems - it simply is the case that often you don't know what you're doing wrong until you've developed skill, but people around you saying you're doing great can suppress your desire to work on that skill in favor of rushing ahead to interview where you fall flat on your face.
    - bsder 10y ago
      The Open Mic D-Chord disagrees with you ... (An Open Mic D-Chord is a D-Chord (D A D F#) where they don't mute the lowest string and thus put a really nasty sounding E note on the bottom of the chord)
- pessimizer 10y ago
  It sounds like extremely constructive criticism to me. More specific than anyone has a right to expect; it's exactly what sounded bad, and exactly what needs to be practiced to sound better.
skywhopper 10y ago
There's a time and a place for critique, and immediately after a performance is neither. Only a jerk with truly low self-esteem would think that it was appropriate to offer unsolicited criticicism of the performance skills of a teenager in a rock band to their face at the performance. If it's their music instructor, maybe. But again, that's not really the place. Next lesson would be the right time and place to get that feedback.
- kodt 10y ago
  And if this is just a garage band with no formal lessons?
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Are you an American? I'm European, and maybe this is just personal experience / a personal anecdote, but whenever I've had conversations with an American I found that they tend to always be really excited and then casually ignore any further communication. It's much harder to figure out for me what an American _actually_ means vs say a Belgian or a British person. No point in being an open person if you're only touting positive things. I agree with your statement in principle, but at the same time, people need to be willing to give some meaningful comments. If I'm trying to break through in a rock band, I want criticism so I can figure out how to improve. Being told "Good performance brah", if you know you sucked, sucks.
  - maroonblazer 10y ago
    I'm an American and my 10 yr old son is in an organized band that includes a weekly private lesson and a public performance. I agree with skywhopper that there's a time and place for criticism and right after the show, especially at that age, is not it. Also, part of the objective of having the public performance is to simply get kids comfortable performing publicly. My kid was practically shitting himself before the show, he was so nervous about playing in front of a crowd. So, a healthy part of the applause is recognition that they simply performed publicly. It's likely that greeting them with criticism of their playing as they walk off the stage won't do much to encourage them to try it again.
criddell 10y ago
I might agree with you, but I would need more context. For example, my daughter did a rock-camp last summer. It was some neighborhood kids that got together with a teacher for 5 afternoons to learn six songs and after the camp was over, they put on a show to play the songs they had been practicing. The kids' talent levels ranged from truly amazing to early beginner. Nobody played flawlessly but everybody had a lot of fun. The feedback the kids received was overwhelmingly positive and I think it had the effect of making the kids want to do it again next summer. People were congratulating them on their hard work and learning to play so many songs in very little time. The kids that played at a high level would probably appreciate some criticism. The kids that were struggling may have been embarrassed and less likely to continue. I could be wrong about that, but it's my gut feeling.
- mjevans 10y ago
  Lauding the effort publicly seems like good re-enforcement. The constructive criticism might be better off in a more private and 'safe' (biased towards the receiver) setting; this way shaming someone for a good attempt isn't the result.
Tenhundfeld 10y ago
You touch on something I think about often as a father. Many years ago, I had a psychology professor who basically went off on a rant for an entire class meeting about this, and it struck a chord in me. It was basically this: 1) Parents don't understand a child's emotional needs. Children need a foundation of love, which at an early age basically means attention from and interaction with caregivers. 2) Modern parents, especially pronounced starting with baby boomers, often feel they didn't get enough love and support from their parents. So they lavish their children with praise – frequently instead of focused attention – and think they're doing a good job. 3) This creates children who commingle love with achievement. That is, their parents love them because of their supposed achievements, and thus, if they're not achieving things, they aren't worthy of love. So children simultaneously have inflated egos but also very insecure egos. (This also ties into the whole idea that you should praise a child's effort, not their intelligence.) That's all very abstract though. He gave a bunch of examples, but only one has stuck with me. Let's say your three year old comes to you with a drawing. Unless she's a prodigy, that drawing is going to be objectively bad, mostly squiggles with maybe a shape or two. How most modern parents respond: Parent: Good job! This is such a pretty drawing. I like how you used different colors. That's a great circle. You're a good drawer. Can you go draw me a square now? Parent then goes back to watching TV, which would be a smartphone in an updated example. How a parent should respond: Parent: Thank you for showing me your drawing. I like how you used different colors and only drew on the paper. (legitimate praise is fine). What's this? (points to circle blob) Kid: A horse. Parent: Oh, a horse. Cool. Does she have a name? (or Is the horse happy today? Can he run fast? whatever. The point is to engage in open ended questions that show you care and let the kid drive the conversation, somewhat.) Kid: His name is cow. Parent: A horse named cow, how silly. And so on. Anyway, I'm sure people would have problems with my sample good response too, and I'm probably misremembering the details. I'm also not sure the baby boomer stuff is totally accurate. But the overall idea is to give attention and focused interaction, not undue praise, and that makes a ton of sense to me. Edited for typos and formatting.
- fizzbatter 10y ago
  It's weird, i don't think i had a ton of praise growing up (in the 90s), but regardless i ended up a basket case when it comes to praise. I loathe it. At some early point in my life i saw how meaningless praise was. Parents (mine and others) praised without warrant.. and it was obvious to me. Worse yet, i couldn't figure out where the line was - what was legitimate praise? I became distrusting of all praise, and rarely felt pride from anyone but myself. Which, honestly sucks. Whether it's parents praising their children, or gifts at Christmas that people often don't want but smile and act like they do.. everyone is just lying to each other so constantly that everything of value feels so fake. It's honestly quite upsetting to me. I wonder if it's like this everywhere? Is it mostly an American situation?
onewaystreet 10y ago
Most people don't give honest feedback to others. I don't think that is a recent occurrence.
jacobolus 10y ago
> What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I’ve found this to more common among other cultural groups (for instance, some of my Indian and Iranian friends). I find Americans are generally on the blunt/direct/plain spoken side, sometimes extremely so. Can you elaborate on who you’re comparing Americans to, and what contexts you find some other national/cultural group to have a different response?
ekianjo 10y ago
> In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc. Also known as the "Everything is Awesome" syndrome. And this is not just for kids. In American companies (at least as far as I could observe), management principles teach you that you should not say anything negative to the employee directly, instead talk about "opportunities for improvement", etc... It's everywhere. And I wager that the political correctness is also very much linked to that.
analog31 10y ago
My kids are in music lessons, the youth orchestra, etc., as I was at the same age. I also played in a rock band as a kid. I don't think that things have changed at all. Maybe the whole "self esteem" thing is an urban legend. Everybody's enthusiastic at the performance, like you say. At the next lesson, they review the recording. But then, they've been receiving that kind of critique at every lesson. You should hear the conductor let 'em have it at orchestra rehearsal. Because of this kind of dialog and close analysis, they also know exactly how well they're playing, immediately and intimately. Part of the goal is to teach kids how to engage in the critical dialog, and to be self-critiquing. With the typical teen rock band, there is no adult involvement at all, other than fiscal.
mempko 10y ago
Saying "Great, good job" and giving praise is the same as giving a prize or a candy. It is a verbal doggy biscuit. Reward and punishment externalizes motivation. American's tend to reward and other countries to punishment. However I bet you in those other countries they hate math just as much as everyone in USA. If you want people to be intrinsically motivated, rewards like "Great Job, awesome" have the exact opposite effect.
kazinator 10y ago
> Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked" Why, 90 comments under their shitty YT video, 7 of them heavily upvoted.
gerbilly 10y ago
Do you actually think the kids don't know where they screwed up their parts? And even if they didn't know, right after the show isn't the time to mention mistakes. It's hard enough to get up in front of people to speak, much less perform, so I think the situation you describe, if followed later by a discussion on what to improve and work on, is entirely appropriate. Did you know that Steve Jones, the guitarist from the sex pistols, had to have another guitarist play behind a curtain for him for the first few shows? It didn't stop the band from changing popular music, and it didn't stop him from developing a very tight technique.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg

by NTDF9 10y ago

jug5 10y ago

As a whole they have become one of the most cowardly cultures.

pavel_lishin 10y ago

> "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked" That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism.

NTDF9 10y ago
>> That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism. A constructive criticism isn't a one-liner on HN. If you're skilled enough to show how that transition works, show it to them and make them learn it.
- cwbrandsma 10y ago
  I think I understand what you are saying...but at the same time, given the example 6stringmerc used, there is nothing to "teach", the student has to practice more. That isn't teachable, the skill is only achieved via practice and work. (I give guitar lesions) Which we, as a society, also seem reluctant to do. "oh you must not be good at that, try something else", instead of "if you want it you are going to have to work harder"
  - maroonblazer 10y ago
    >guitar lesions I'm changing the name of my band to this. ;-)
- civilian 10y ago
  So, guitar is tough. Because it's not that you can teach someone how to do a G-C chord transition. There's no theory or understanding that goes into it. It's muscle memory, plain and simple. You just have to do it a lot, over and over. I've had music teachers essentially say "that part sucked, you need to spend more time practicing it". There's no trick to be told, there's no intellectualization that will help. Practice.
6stringmerc 10y ago
It might not sound like it but it actually is quite helpful - translated it means "you are not doing well at a very basic thing and need more practice" because if a guitarist, on stage, can't hit a G-C chord switch competently, then there's really not a lot of wiggle room. They...suck...and need to be shown ways to improve. A lot of times the self-esteem-based response will dismiss the criticism as 'being mean' or some crap when it's actually totally valid.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  Do they not know they blew the chord switch? It seems like they'd know that.
  - abstractbeliefs 10y ago
    Probably not - you're supposed to hone your craft through practice before you perform in the way that was described. If the overall performance was poor, and something so basic was clearly an issue, then maybe they don't realise? This is like a development candidate being poor at simple interview problems - it simply is the case that often you don't know what you're doing wrong until you've developed skill, but people around you saying you're doing great can suppress your desire to work on that skill in favor of rushing ahead to interview where you fall flat on your face.
  - bsder 10y ago
    The Open Mic D-Chord disagrees with you ... (An Open Mic D-Chord is a D-Chord (D A D F#) where they don't mute the lowest string and thus put a really nasty sounding E note on the bottom of the chord)
pessimizer 10y ago
It sounds like extremely constructive criticism to me. More specific than anyone has a right to expect; it's exactly what sounded bad, and exactly what needs to be practiced to sound better.

skywhopper 10y ago

There's a time and a place for critique, and immediately after a performance is neither. Only a jerk with truly low self-esteem would think that it was appropriate to offer unsolicited criticicism of the performance skills of a teenager in a rock band to their face at the performance. If it's their music instructor, maybe. But again, that's not really the place. Next lesson would be the right time and place to get that feedback.

kodt 10y ago
And if this is just a garage band with no formal lessons?
charlesdm 10y ago
Are you an American? I'm European, and maybe this is just personal experience / a personal anecdote, but whenever I've had conversations with an American I found that they tend to always be really excited and then casually ignore any further communication. It's much harder to figure out for me what an American _actually_ means vs say a Belgian or a British person. No point in being an open person if you're only touting positive things. I agree with your statement in principle, but at the same time, people need to be willing to give some meaningful comments. If I'm trying to break through in a rock band, I want criticism so I can figure out how to improve. Being told "Good performance brah", if you know you sucked, sucks.
- maroonblazer 10y ago
  I'm an American and my 10 yr old son is in an organized band that includes a weekly private lesson and a public performance. I agree with skywhopper that there's a time and place for criticism and right after the show, especially at that age, is not it. Also, part of the objective of having the public performance is to simply get kids comfortable performing publicly. My kid was practically shitting himself before the show, he was so nervous about playing in front of a crowd. So, a healthy part of the applause is recognition that they simply performed publicly. It's likely that greeting them with criticism of their playing as they walk off the stage won't do much to encourage them to try it again.

criddell 10y ago

I might agree with you, but I would need more context. For example, my daughter did a rock-camp last summer. It was some neighborhood kids that got together with a teacher for 5 afternoons to learn six songs and after the camp was over, they put on a show to play the songs they had been practicing. The kids' talent levels ranged from truly amazing to early beginner. Nobody played flawlessly but everybody had a lot of fun. The feedback the kids received was overwhelmingly positive and I think it had the effect of making the kids want to do it again next summer. People were congratulating them on their hard work and learning to play so many songs in very little time. The kids that played at a high level would probably appreciate some criticism. The kids that were struggling may have been embarrassed and less likely to continue. I could be wrong about that, but it's my gut feeling.

mjevans 10y ago
Lauding the effort publicly seems like good re-enforcement. The constructive criticism might be better off in a more private and 'safe' (biased towards the receiver) setting; this way shaming someone for a good attempt isn't the result.

Tenhundfeld 10y ago

You touch on something I think about often as a father. Many years ago, I had a psychology professor who basically went off on a rant for an entire class meeting about this, and it struck a chord in me. It was basically this: 1) Parents don't understand a child's emotional needs. Children need a foundation of love, which at an early age basically means attention from and interaction with caregivers. 2) Modern parents, especially pronounced starting with baby boomers, often feel they didn't get enough love and support from their parents. So they lavish their children with praise – frequently instead of focused attention – and think they're doing a good job. 3) This creates children who commingle love with achievement. That is, their parents love them because of their supposed achievements, and thus, if they're not achieving things, they aren't worthy of love. So children simultaneously have inflated egos but also very insecure egos. (This also ties into the whole idea that you should praise a child's effort, not their intelligence.) That's all very abstract though. He gave a bunch of examples, but only one has stuck with me. Let's say your three year old comes to you with a drawing. Unless she's a prodigy, that drawing is going to be objectively bad, mostly squiggles with maybe a shape or two. How most modern parents respond: Parent: Good job! This is such a pretty drawing. I like how you used different colors. That's a great circle. You're a good drawer. Can you go draw me a square now? Parent then goes back to watching TV, which would be a smartphone in an updated example. How a parent should respond: Parent: Thank you for showing me your drawing. I like how you used different colors and only drew on the paper. (legitimate praise is fine). What's this? (points to circle blob) Kid: A horse. Parent: Oh, a horse. Cool. Does she have a name? (or Is the horse happy today? Can he run fast? whatever. The point is to engage in open ended questions that show you care and let the kid drive the conversation, somewhat.) Kid: His name is cow. Parent: A horse named cow, how silly. And so on. Anyway, I'm sure people would have problems with my sample good response too, and I'm probably misremembering the details. I'm also not sure the baby boomer stuff is totally accurate. But the overall idea is to give attention and focused interaction, not undue praise, and that makes a ton of sense to me. Edited for typos and formatting.

fizzbatter 10y ago
It's weird, i don't think i had a ton of praise growing up (in the 90s), but regardless i ended up a basket case when it comes to praise. I loathe it. At some early point in my life i saw how meaningless praise was. Parents (mine and others) praised without warrant.. and it was obvious to me. Worse yet, i couldn't figure out where the line was - what was legitimate praise? I became distrusting of all praise, and rarely felt pride from anyone but myself. Which, honestly sucks. Whether it's parents praising their children, or gifts at Christmas that people often don't want but smile and act like they do.. everyone is just lying to each other so constantly that everything of value feels so fake. It's honestly quite upsetting to me. I wonder if it's like this everywhere? Is it mostly an American situation?

onewaystreet 10y ago

Most people don't give honest feedback to others. I don't think that is a recent occurrence.

jacobolus 10y ago

> What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I’ve found this to more common among other cultural groups (for instance, some of my Indian and Iranian friends). I find Americans are generally on the blunt/direct/plain spoken side, sometimes extremely so. Can you elaborate on who you’re comparing Americans to, and what contexts you find some other national/cultural group to have a different response?

ekianjo 10y ago

> In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc. Also known as the "Everything is Awesome" syndrome. And this is not just for kids. In American companies (at least as far as I could observe), management principles teach you that you should not say anything negative to the employee directly, instead talk about "opportunities for improvement", etc... It's everywhere. And I wager that the political correctness is also very much linked to that.

analog31 10y ago

My kids are in music lessons, the youth orchestra, etc., as I was at the same age. I also played in a rock band as a kid. I don't think that things have changed at all. Maybe the whole "self esteem" thing is an urban legend. Everybody's enthusiastic at the performance, like you say. At the next lesson, they review the recording. But then, they've been receiving that kind of critique at every lesson. You should hear the conductor let 'em have it at orchestra rehearsal. Because of this kind of dialog and close analysis, they also know exactly how well they're playing, immediately and intimately. Part of the goal is to teach kids how to engage in the critical dialog, and to be self-critiquing. With the typical teen rock band, there is no adult involvement at all, other than fiscal.

mempko 10y ago

Saying "Great, good job" and giving praise is the same as giving a prize or a candy. It is a verbal doggy biscuit. Reward and punishment externalizes motivation. American's tend to reward and other countries to punishment. However I bet you in those other countries they hate math just as much as everyone in USA. If you want people to be intrinsically motivated, rewards like "Great Job, awesome" have the exact opposite effect.

kazinator 10y ago

> Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked" Why, 90 comments under their shitty YT video, 7 of them heavily upvoted.

gerbilly 10y ago

Do you actually think the kids don't know where they screwed up their parts? And even if they didn't know, right after the show isn't the time to mention mistakes. It's hard enough to get up in front of people to speak, much less perform, so I think the situation you describe, if followed later by a discussion on what to improve and work on, is entirely appropriate. Did you know that Steve Jones, the guitarist from the sex pistols, had to have another guitarist play behind a curtain for him for the first few shows? It didn't stop the band from changing popular music, and it didn't stop him from developing a very tight technique.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg