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> Now that we have built the infrastructure How successful is the drug war? The recent headlines related to heroin seem to imply that it's been a failure. Befo

by knz 10y ago

> Now that we have built the infrastructure How successful is the drug war? The recent headlines related to heroin seem to imply that it's been a failure. Before that there was a meth crisis and before that there was likely something else. Is enforcement actually reducing the negative social impacts of substance abuse? It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement.

llamataboot 10y ago
It is very successful in incarcerating a ton of people and providing lots of money for people involved in it. It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse.
- rhizome 10y ago
  It's a national make-work program that builds broken lives.
  - sfrailsdev 10y ago
    Hey don't forget super cheap labor in the form of prisoners
    - a3n 10y ago
      Coincidentally, there's a measure on the Colorado ballot this year (I voted for it), that removes a state constitutional exception to allow slavery for punishment of convicted criminals. Slavery, in the Colorado and many other state constitutions, is explicitly forbidden. Colorado, at least, allows an exception for convicted criminals. I can't believe it's 2016 and I find myself having to say "yup, slavery is bad, let's not do that."
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Convicts have most of their rights abrogated. Its essentially slavery however you label it? Just like killing folks for high crimes is not 'murder', imprisoning folks and making them work for their keep is not 'slavery'.
        rhizome 10y ago
        Killing people for high crimes is not murder, but it is listed as homicide on their death certificate. I'm not sure of the distinction you're making, but you may be confused about categories of slavery, of which chattel slavery (what the US had until 1865) is only one. You may be thinking of indentured servitude, but even that doesn't map precisely to prison labor.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, it is slavery, which is why in order to not prohibit it, the 13th Amendment include an express exception for criminal punishment when otherwise abolishing slavery.
        a3n 10y ago
        Here's 100 jobs in this building. It's 100 jobs that have to be done, that people will pay for the result. They aren't great jobs, say maybe $13/hour, but they're jobs. Except no, we're not going to let 100 people have those $13/hour jobs. Instead, we're going to have 100 prisoners do those jobs for free, or next to nothing. Sorry prisoner slaves. Sorry free citizens. EDIT: And oh, we also have to pay guards to watch them do those jobs. So not free labor, not really.
    - pizza 10y ago
      13th amendment - indentured servitude and slavery permitted
- dgudkov 10y ago
  It's hard to protect individuals from something that they're actively looking for. How can you fight drugs if there are so many people willing to buy them?
  - xtian 10y ago
    Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities. If what you find extends beyond mere curiosity, then address those things.
    - beambot 10y ago
      Lots of things alter your subjective reality: reading (books, news, Reddit), watching TV and movies, imagination, travel, drugs, art, music, meditation, diversity, etc. The reasons for why people seek them out are just as varied. Not sure why chemical substances used moderately and responsibly get a bad rap...
      - dpc59 10y ago
        Because people who don't use substances only see the people who don't use them responsibly as "substance users". They can't tell for all the other people, so to them drug abuse is inherent to drug use.
      - pizza 10y ago
        Probably related to the 'sacrifice' of the basically-exiled users who had nowhere to get external help for moderating use.
      - xtian 10y ago
        Right and so if the reasons are benign then there's nothing to be done. Sorry if that was unclear.
    - jamestnz 10y ago
      > Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities Some years ago I read an interesting book on this, called The Pursuit of Oblivion[1]. In addition to providing a fascinating look at historical drug use across different cultures, the book also makes the general argument that the human drive to alter one's consciousness is as natural and inherent as the drives for food, sex, etc. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narcotics/dp/0393325458 https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narco...
- ythl 10y ago
  > It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse. I wouldn't say that. For generally law-abiding citizens like me, the lack of availability has done wonders to protect me from drugs. At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. Making all drugs legal and accessible will definitely have a negative impact on one portion of the population (curious people like me). A certain percentage of curious but otherwise law-abiding people will destroy their lives once drugs are legalized.
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. There are a lot of assumptions in there - the biggest one is that, in a legal market, drugs which are currently illegal today would still be more dangerous than drugs which already are legal. That's a big assumption, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. For example, the success of diacetylmorphine maintenance strongly suggests that it is just as possible to be a regular user of heroin as it is to be a person who drinks regularly in the evenings but otherwise lives a 'normal' life. On that note, we dramatically overestimate the danger of drugs like cocaine and dramatically underestimate the danger of drugs like alcohol and caffeine. Alcohol, incidentally, is one of the only drugs for which the withdrawal can literally be fatal[0]. (By contrast, while heroin withdrawal can cause dehydration and other problems, as long as those are treated correctly, the direct effects of the withdrawal are non-fatal)[1]. [0] Benzodiazepines can also cause the same effect. [1] This does not mean that heroin detoxification is easy or should be taken lightly. Lots of things can still go wrong, and it's one of the reason why detox programs exist. But partly due to the legal status of heroin, we ascribe these to the 'danger' of heroin as a drug, all the while ignoring that alcohol detoxification shares all of these same challenges and many more.
hash-set 10y ago
In terms of growing the state and creating opportunities for large corporations to make billions of dollars while subjugating a population, I'd say it is overwhelmingly successful.
wangchow 10y ago
Like the prohibition era...
SixSigma 10y ago
Criminal activty is a great screen for US covert operations > This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html
a3n 10y ago
> How successful is the drug war? ... It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement. As a jobs program it's probably pretty good. Law enforcement jobs. Prison jobs. Court jobs. Political prizes to argue over and differentiate yourself from the other guy. As a control program it's fantastic. Look at all the traffic stops, civil asset forfeiture and surveillance they get away with.

by knz 10y ago

llamataboot 10y ago

It is very successful in incarcerating a ton of people and providing lots of money for people involved in it. It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse.

rhizome 10y ago
It's a national make-work program that builds broken lives.
- sfrailsdev 10y ago
  Hey don't forget super cheap labor in the form of prisoners
  - a3n 10y ago
    Coincidentally, there's a measure on the Colorado ballot this year (I voted for it), that removes a state constitutional exception to allow slavery for punishment of convicted criminals. Slavery, in the Colorado and many other state constitutions, is explicitly forbidden. Colorado, at least, allows an exception for convicted criminals. I can't believe it's 2016 and I find myself having to say "yup, slavery is bad, let's not do that."
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Convicts have most of their rights abrogated. Its essentially slavery however you label it? Just like killing folks for high crimes is not 'murder', imprisoning folks and making them work for their keep is not 'slavery'.
      - rhizome 10y ago
        Killing people for high crimes is not murder, but it is listed as homicide on their death certificate. I'm not sure of the distinction you're making, but you may be confused about categories of slavery, of which chattel slavery (what the US had until 1865) is only one. You may be thinking of indentured servitude, but even that doesn't map precisely to prison labor.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, it is slavery, which is why in order to not prohibit it, the 13th Amendment include an express exception for criminal punishment when otherwise abolishing slavery.
      - a3n 10y ago
        Here's 100 jobs in this building. It's 100 jobs that have to be done, that people will pay for the result. They aren't great jobs, say maybe $13/hour, but they're jobs. Except no, we're not going to let 100 people have those $13/hour jobs. Instead, we're going to have 100 prisoners do those jobs for free, or next to nothing. Sorry prisoner slaves. Sorry free citizens. EDIT: And oh, we also have to pay guards to watch them do those jobs. So not free labor, not really.
  - pizza 10y ago
    13th amendment - indentured servitude and slavery permitted
dgudkov 10y ago
It's hard to protect individuals from something that they're actively looking for. How can you fight drugs if there are so many people willing to buy them?
- xtian 10y ago
  Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities. If what you find extends beyond mere curiosity, then address those things.
  - beambot 10y ago
    Lots of things alter your subjective reality: reading (books, news, Reddit), watching TV and movies, imagination, travel, drugs, art, music, meditation, diversity, etc. The reasons for why people seek them out are just as varied. Not sure why chemical substances used moderately and responsibly get a bad rap...
    - dpc59 10y ago
      Because people who don't use substances only see the people who don't use them responsibly as "substance users". They can't tell for all the other people, so to them drug abuse is inherent to drug use.
    - pizza 10y ago
      Probably related to the 'sacrifice' of the basically-exiled users who had nowhere to get external help for moderating use.
    - xtian 10y ago
      Right and so if the reasons are benign then there's nothing to be done. Sorry if that was unclear.
  - jamestnz 10y ago
    > Start asking why so many people want to alter their subjective realities Some years ago I read an interesting book on this, called The Pursuit of Oblivion[1]. In addition to providing a fascinating look at historical drug use across different cultures, the book also makes the general argument that the human drive to alter one's consciousness is as natural and inherent as the drives for food, sex, etc. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narcotics/dp/0393325458 https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Oblivion-Global-History-Narco...
ythl 10y ago
> It's worse than useless (like negative net effect) in terms of protecting society and individuals from the harms of drug abuse. I wouldn't say that. For generally law-abiding citizens like me, the lack of availability has done wonders to protect me from drugs. At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. Making all drugs legal and accessible will definitely have a negative impact on one portion of the population (curious people like me). A certain percentage of curious but otherwise law-abiding people will destroy their lives once drugs are legalized.
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > At some point or another in my life, I've been tempted to experiment with the legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco, etc.). I've never been tempted to try LSD or cocaine (for example), because there is currently no legal way to obtain it and I definitely don't feel like engaging in risky activities just to try. There are a lot of assumptions in there - the biggest one is that, in a legal market, drugs which are currently illegal today would still be more dangerous than drugs which already are legal. That's a big assumption, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. For example, the success of diacetylmorphine maintenance strongly suggests that it is just as possible to be a regular user of heroin as it is to be a person who drinks regularly in the evenings but otherwise lives a 'normal' life. On that note, we dramatically overestimate the danger of drugs like cocaine and dramatically underestimate the danger of drugs like alcohol and caffeine. Alcohol, incidentally, is one of the only drugs for which the withdrawal can literally be fatal[0]. (By contrast, while heroin withdrawal can cause dehydration and other problems, as long as those are treated correctly, the direct effects of the withdrawal are non-fatal)[1]. [0] Benzodiazepines can also cause the same effect. [1] This does not mean that heroin detoxification is easy or should be taken lightly. Lots of things can still go wrong, and it's one of the reason why detox programs exist. But partly due to the legal status of heroin, we ascribe these to the 'danger' of heroin as a drug, all the while ignoring that alcohol detoxification shares all of these same challenges and many more.

hash-set 10y ago

In terms of growing the state and creating opportunities for large corporations to make billions of dollars while subjugating a population, I'd say it is overwhelmingly successful.

wangchow 10y ago

Like the prohibition era...

SixSigma 10y ago

Criminal activty is a great screen for US covert operations > This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html

a3n 10y ago

> How successful is the drug war? ... It would be interesting to see the ROI for enforcement. As a jobs program it's probably pretty good. Law enforcement jobs. Prison jobs. Court jobs. Political prizes to argue over and differentiate yourself from the other guy. As a control program it's fantastic. Look at all the traffic stops, civil asset forfeiture and surveillance they get away with.