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Dutch here. We need at least 5 parties to make a government in the next election. Nothing ever changes here because everything has to go through many iterations

Dutch here. We need at least 5 parties to make a government in the next election. Nothing ever changes here because everything has to go through many iterations of compromises if it even wants to leave the negotiation table. I wish we had a system like the USA.

izacus 10y ago
A system where you'd only have two prepackaged choices for ALL the possible complicated state issues? O.o Those proportional system compromises aren't half as bad.
jacquesm 10y ago
> Nothing ever changes here because everything has to go through many iterations of compromises if it even wants to leave the negotiation table. That's a feature, not a bug. > I wish we had a system like the USA. You are missing the wood for the trees. The last thing you want in a country is an effective government that can push through it's majority agenda at the expense of the minority. That's why EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion, euthanasia, LGBT rights and so on. It's also a way to keep religion out of government as much as possible, you won't see the separation between state and church in a country where the dominant political parties all have to nominally support the dominant religion. So please, no system 'like the USA' in Dutch politics, though, you may get your wish soon enough. Personally I'd much rather have us adopt the very opposite, the Swiss system which requires a much more active electorate and a much more educated one too.
- macspoofing 10y ago
  >That's why EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion, euthanasia, LGBT rights and so on. Except those are controversial with Americans. I'm not seeing how the system is to blame. Making the electoral process 'more democratic' isn't going to change that. It might make things worse ...
  - tremon 10y ago
    But controversy in the US is similarly limited to a two-party dialog: everything in your political system (its discourse, its reporting, its policies) is geared towards this artifical (and often false) dichotomy. In my view, it is the discourse that needs to be fixed first. As long as your media keeps painting everything in black and white (and it is in their interest to do so, being part of the establishment), I don't think any electoral reform is useful.
    - selllikesybok 10y ago
      "All or nothing", it turns out, is really appealing to people. It may be toxic to a functioning democracy with a diverse population, but doesn't seem to lessen the appeal. We are very good at pretending that when we get "nothing", it is a temporary inconvenience.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        It's more like that we are good at accepting this system as long as we're not the ones getting 'nothing'.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Is Europe ahead of the US on LGBT rights? Marriage equality is the law of the land in all 50 states here. The first amendment of our Constitution separates church and state, for whatever that's worth. You might want to suggest that to Ireland. ;)
  - dagw 10y ago
    Is Europe ahead of the US on LGBT rights? On the whole, not really. 11 European countries constitutionally ban same-sex marriage for example, and less than half the countries offer any sort of legal recognition for same-sex couples. Of course the problem when talking about 'Europe' is that you have a very wide spectrum of opinions. For every country that is ahead of the US on LGBT rights you have another that is very far behind.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Yes, the EU is ahead, but just like every other part of the future it is unevenly distributed. Some country in Europe will pioneer a concept, others will follow, some faster some slower. The US usually catches on long after the concept has already become normal in a fair chunk of the EU. As for your constitution, America gets it right on paper, but in practice God (the Christian one) is all over American politics, whereas even in Ireland it seems to be less of a day-to-day influence.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      So really you mean the Netherlands are ahead of the US in LGBT rights. I'm curious about what else the US should be doing. How is the Netherlands better?
      - dagw 10y ago
        How is the Netherlands better? From a purely legal perspective not in any significant ways. However from a public opinion perspective the difference is more significant. Same sex marriage has ~90% approval rating in the Netherlands compare ~55% in US. I cannot imagine that those sorts of differences don't greatly affect the day-to-day reality living as a same sex couple.
- RandomName2020 10y ago
  > EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion EU (esp. Scandinavia) has much, much more tight regulations of abortion, compared to English world, esp. Canada, which has none. As a socially conservative I consider this good.
Pica_soO 10y ago
Has a democratic version been tried that fluctuates between duopole and multipole party systems?

izacus 10y ago

A system where you'd only have two prepackaged choices for ALL the possible complicated state issues? O.o Those proportional system compromises aren't half as bad.

jacquesm 10y ago

> Nothing ever changes here because everything has to go through many iterations of compromises if it even wants to leave the negotiation table. That's a feature, not a bug. > I wish we had a system like the USA. You are missing the wood for the trees. The last thing you want in a country is an effective government that can push through it's majority agenda at the expense of the minority. That's why EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion, euthanasia, LGBT rights and so on. It's also a way to keep religion out of government as much as possible, you won't see the separation between state and church in a country where the dominant political parties all have to nominally support the dominant religion. So please, no system 'like the USA' in Dutch politics, though, you may get your wish soon enough. Personally I'd much rather have us adopt the very opposite, the Swiss system which requires a much more active electorate and a much more educated one too.

macspoofing 10y ago
>That's why EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion, euthanasia, LGBT rights and so on. Except those are controversial with Americans. I'm not seeing how the system is to blame. Making the electoral process 'more democratic' isn't going to change that. It might make things worse ...
- tremon 10y ago
  But controversy in the US is similarly limited to a two-party dialog: everything in your political system (its discourse, its reporting, its policies) is geared towards this artifical (and often false) dichotomy. In my view, it is the discourse that needs to be fixed first. As long as your media keeps painting everything in black and white (and it is in their interest to do so, being part of the establishment), I don't think any electoral reform is useful.
  - selllikesybok 10y ago
    "All or nothing", it turns out, is really appealing to people. It may be toxic to a functioning democracy with a diverse population, but doesn't seem to lessen the appeal. We are very good at pretending that when we get "nothing", it is a temporary inconvenience.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      It's more like that we are good at accepting this system as long as we're not the ones getting 'nothing'.
tptacek 10y ago
Is Europe ahead of the US on LGBT rights? Marriage equality is the law of the land in all 50 states here. The first amendment of our Constitution separates church and state, for whatever that's worth. You might want to suggest that to Ireland. ;)
- dagw 10y ago
  Is Europe ahead of the US on LGBT rights? On the whole, not really. 11 European countries constitutionally ban same-sex marriage for example, and less than half the countries offer any sort of legal recognition for same-sex couples. Of course the problem when talking about 'Europe' is that you have a very wide spectrum of opinions. For every country that is ahead of the US on LGBT rights you have another that is very far behind.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Yes, the EU is ahead, but just like every other part of the future it is unevenly distributed. Some country in Europe will pioneer a concept, others will follow, some faster some slower. The US usually catches on long after the concept has already become normal in a fair chunk of the EU. As for your constitution, America gets it right on paper, but in practice God (the Christian one) is all over American politics, whereas even in Ireland it seems to be less of a day-to-day influence.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    So really you mean the Netherlands are ahead of the US in LGBT rights. I'm curious about what else the US should be doing. How is the Netherlands better?
    - dagw 10y ago
      How is the Netherlands better? From a purely legal perspective not in any significant ways. However from a public opinion perspective the difference is more significant. Same sex marriage has ~90% approval rating in the Netherlands compare ~55% in US. I cannot imagine that those sorts of differences don't greatly affect the day-to-day reality living as a same sex couple.
RandomName2020 10y ago
> EU countries are as a rule quite far ahead on the curve of progress, see: abortion EU (esp. Scandinavia) has much, much more tight regulations of abortion, compared to English world, esp. Canada, which has none. As a socially conservative I consider this good.

Pica_soO 10y ago

Has a democratic version been tried that fluctuates between duopole and multipole party systems?