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People keep talking about Chinese everything. At the risk of being downvoted into oblivion let me ask you... would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Fac

People keep talking about Chinese everything. At the risk of being downvoted into oblivion let me ask you... would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Facebook clone? Chinese Twitter clone? I don't know about you, but I'd think twice before feeding my child Chinese formula or taking a flight in a Chinese made airplane. Physical products are one thing but informational products are clearly another. China's reach is China. They may have a billion person market but last I checked that was only 1/7th the world. I'd venture to say that most folks would rather use some other option than something made in China.

tachion 10y ago
And what does it mean to be 'Chinese'? I am asking, because in way or another, that formula you've mentioned, it parts, the wheat its made of (or whatever else), this plane, its parts, its materials... Some of them, probably a lot are in one way or another 'Chinese'.
- Akkuma 10y ago
  My personal definition would be a product assembled, regulated, and QA'd in China. If parts are made in China and sent to the US, the US company has to QA the part, assemble the final product with the part, and is regulated by US law with the final product.
dilap 10y ago
In the past at least you could have pointed to Twitter as having a strong commitment to free speech, but that has completely evaporated.
handedness 10y ago
> I'd venture to say that most folks would rather use some other option than something made in China. The device on which you typed that, where was it made?
- asdfologist 10y ago
  > Physical products are one thing but informational products are clearly another.
  - handedness 10y ago
    The two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    The GP says they wouldn't use physical products made in China, then says "informational products are another thing", so is his point that he would use those? The comment is self-contradictory.
- Spivak 10y ago
  This is the physical object and service distinction. I don't want to use services based in China because they're ultimately subject to the will of the Chinese government. I don't really doubt the technical ability of Chinese CS professionals to create a quality product, but this is orthogonal to why I would avoid them. And honestly the same is becoming true of US based services when it comes to data security and privacy. Google makes a nice product, but I wouldn't store any data on their servers that I believe has any chance whatsoever of being used against me -- either by my government or private entities.
  - rahrahrah 10y ago
    > I don't want to use services based in China because they're ultimately subject to the will of the Chinese government. Exactly. Compare this to the case of the United States, where the government never forces its tech companies to share their data.
    - rtpg 10y ago
      There's a major difference in degree. This is like saying that riding a bike on the sidewalk or in the middle of the road is the same because you have a risk of being hit by a car in both cases. I would still highly recommend one over the other
hdra 10y ago
Lots of people like Chinese products, WeChat and Tencent's QQ are very popular in Asean countries like Singapore and Malaysia. Weibo is also very much used by people outside of China to get updates from celebrities on the platform. The usage don't come close to FB, of course(but who does?), and these people also do use Facebook and Twitter, but they also use these Chinese products because they serve a different need for them, not because they want a "Facebook/Twitter, but made in China". I myself tried these app to keep in touch with friends who use them, but never really got into them, but I can tell you that the internet look very different once you get out of the western-world-centric internet. So, yeah, I would say they would use it.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Wechat and QQ have very little reach outside of mainland Chinese communities, and even in Singapore, Facebook and Twitter, Whatsapp are much more popular than their Chinese competition. Wechat's inability to compete at all in China's backyard (surrounding countries, newly on the internet, like Myanmar and cambodia) is especially surprising, since it isn't that bad of a product.
  - yeukhon 10y ago
    Believe it or not, I have quite a handful non-Asian friends here in the US using Wechat. But it may be due to influences of their Asian friends. QQ definitely has no reach outside of the Chinese communities originated from mainland China. That I 100% agree as a Chinese.
  - hdra 10y ago
    Oh, FB/Twitter still dominates, of course. Pretty much everywhere. The FB/Twitter/Instagram handles are what you'll see in print ads, etc. But WeChat and QQ are in no way "have very little reach". Outside the tech-savvy demographics, people are more likely to know what WeChat and QQ are than they are to know about say, Snapchat, or Pinterest, for example.
    - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
samfisher83 10y ago
A billion people is 3 times the size of America. Even if you can get 30% of that is bigger than the entire twitter user base.
StavrosK 10y ago
> would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Facebook clone? Chinese Twitter clone? I'd use it more readily than I'd use the american counterpart. I have to travel to the US sometimes, but not so much in China, so China knowing things about me affects me much less. > I don't know about you, but I'd think twice before feeding my child Chinese formula or taking a flight in a Chinese made airplane. As others said, yeah, you're already doing those things. Everything is made in China. > China's reach is China. That's why you never see "made in China" stickers on anything. > They may have a billion person market but last I checked that was only 1/7th the world. That's also the largest country in the world, and it's the only market you can say that for. The US is 1/20th of the world.
- endisukaj 10y ago
  > I'd use it more readily than I'd use the american counterpart. I have to travel to the US sometimes, but not so much in China, so China knowing things about me affects me much less. Why does traveling in the US and the US knowing things about you affect you? > As others said, yeah, you're already doing those things. Everything is made in China. Not by Chinese companies though. Individual parts are made there, but they are designed by non-Chinese companies and the manufacturing process is overseen by these companies. > That's why you never see "made in China" stickers on anything. See my last point. > That's also the largest country in the world, and it's the only market you can say that for. The US is 1/20th of the world. Last time I checked, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram (not to mention Apple products and Google) were used outside the US as well. I don't think anyone in Europe uses a Chinese Facebook clone or Twitter clone.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    > Why does traveling in the US and the US knowing things about you affect you? Because I can be detained by a country (or denied entry) much more easily when I am in the country than when I am not. > Not by Chinese companies though. Individual parts are made there, but they are designed by non-Chinese companies and the manufacturing process is overseen by these companies. I don't believe that "Chinese company" automatically equals "crap". Xiaomi makes some of the best products I've ever used (and they definitely have the best quality to price ratio of anyone), my Huawei phone is amazing, everything I bought from Ali has been good, etc. > Last time I checked, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram (not to mention Apple products and Google) were used outside the US as well. I don't think anyone in Europe uses a Chinese Facebook clone or Twitter clone. The western world uses those products. I would be surprised if nobody outside China uses them. Maybe they don't, I don't know the WeChat penetration numbers for countries outside China...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
inimino 10y ago
What's your point? You seem to be bothered that people are talking about the world's biggest market. Why?
quirkafleeg 10y ago
> would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Facebook clone? Chinese Twitter clone? Probably not, but only because I speak English, and (the originals of) those services exist in English. If I spoke or was Chinese, why not?
- nerdwaller 10y ago
  I may be wrong, but I believe they are trying to imply the government's oversight on such services, which in my opinion is a valid concern. However, they're (China) at least not pretending like they aren't involved heavily like, say, the US government that tries to hide they have their fingers in mass amounts of data and servers. The reality is most major economic power governments seem to be.
cm3 10y ago
Despite conflicts and power games one might follow on the news, the world economy is totally global. This also includes supplies coming from armed conflict or politically volatile regions. If you completely disassemble your Detroit-branded car, you will be surprised how many countries supplied parts for it, from all across the world, including Europe, Japan, China, etc. This isn't advertised as much, but for some components, Japan is the world leader due to quality, despite the situation of their overall economy. Just like Germany supplies many components or instruments you won't read about on news sites. Fifty percent of the world's surgical equipment is manufactured in Tuttlingen (Germany). Over 400 medical supply companies are situated there. It's like the Shenzhen of medical tools in terms of concentration and market penetration. It's even more interesting in the context of what you wrote, if you look at where the rest of the surgical supplies come from. Therefore, given that you trust a car which consists of many components built outside the US, and your surgeon probably operates on you with tools made in Germany, everyone is already trusting the global economy and "evil countries" with their lives. Now, to answer your question about email providers, I'm with StavrosK here that using a Russian or Chinese service is safer if you're a European or US resident because of data access laws. The US govt is still fighting Microsoft to provide access under US laws to data stored in European data centers, now in revision after initial defeat. You should still encrypt or skip email for sensitive communication, but the ease with which the government that can imprison you can access your emails is proportionally more difficult the farther away from your region and its close allies you get. EDIT: My impression is that the global economy began in earnest with the great European resource grab (or robbery if you like) via sea shipping across the globe, and it only got more global with time and stayed mostly on sea.
nullnilvoid 10y ago
Why do you care about people talking about China? If China's reach is only China, if most folks don't use Chinese products, why do you even bother replying?
wodenokoto 10y ago
I use WeChat, so I guess I would. When making video calls, me and my friends joke about whether we want Beijing or Washington to listen in (WeChat or Facebook) As for using other Chinese made things, I do use an Apple computer and smart phone. They are also made in China (though Apple prefers to use the word "assemble")

tachion 10y ago

And what does it mean to be 'Chinese'? I am asking, because in way or another, that formula you've mentioned, it parts, the wheat its made of (or whatever else), this plane, its parts, its materials... Some of them, probably a lot are in one way or another 'Chinese'.

Akkuma 10y ago
My personal definition would be a product assembled, regulated, and QA'd in China. If parts are made in China and sent to the US, the US company has to QA the part, assemble the final product with the part, and is regulated by US law with the final product.

dilap 10y ago

In the past at least you could have pointed to Twitter as having a strong commitment to free speech, but that has completely evaporated.

handedness 10y ago

> I'd venture to say that most folks would rather use some other option than something made in China. The device on which you typed that, where was it made?

asdfologist 10y ago
> Physical products are one thing but informational products are clearly another.
- handedness 10y ago
  The two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  The GP says they wouldn't use physical products made in China, then says "informational products are another thing", so is his point that he would use those? The comment is self-contradictory.
Spivak 10y ago
This is the physical object and service distinction. I don't want to use services based in China because they're ultimately subject to the will of the Chinese government. I don't really doubt the technical ability of Chinese CS professionals to create a quality product, but this is orthogonal to why I would avoid them. And honestly the same is becoming true of US based services when it comes to data security and privacy. Google makes a nice product, but I wouldn't store any data on their servers that I believe has any chance whatsoever of being used against me -- either by my government or private entities.
- rahrahrah 10y ago
  > I don't want to use services based in China because they're ultimately subject to the will of the Chinese government. Exactly. Compare this to the case of the United States, where the government never forces its tech companies to share their data.
  - rtpg 10y ago
    There's a major difference in degree. This is like saying that riding a bike on the sidewalk or in the middle of the road is the same because you have a risk of being hit by a car in both cases. I would still highly recommend one over the other

hdra 10y ago

Lots of people like Chinese products, WeChat and Tencent's QQ are very popular in Asean countries like Singapore and Malaysia. Weibo is also very much used by people outside of China to get updates from celebrities on the platform. The usage don't come close to FB, of course(but who does?), and these people also do use Facebook and Twitter, but they also use these Chinese products because they serve a different need for them, not because they want a "Facebook/Twitter, but made in China". I myself tried these app to keep in touch with friends who use them, but never really got into them, but I can tell you that the internet look very different once you get out of the western-world-centric internet. So, yeah, I would say they would use it.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Wechat and QQ have very little reach outside of mainland Chinese communities, and even in Singapore, Facebook and Twitter, Whatsapp are much more popular than their Chinese competition. Wechat's inability to compete at all in China's backyard (surrounding countries, newly on the internet, like Myanmar and cambodia) is especially surprising, since it isn't that bad of a product.
- yeukhon 10y ago
  Believe it or not, I have quite a handful non-Asian friends here in the US using Wechat. But it may be due to influences of their Asian friends. QQ definitely has no reach outside of the Chinese communities originated from mainland China. That I 100% agree as a Chinese.
- hdra 10y ago
  Oh, FB/Twitter still dominates, of course. Pretty much everywhere. The FB/Twitter/Instagram handles are what you'll see in print ads, etc. But WeChat and QQ are in no way "have very little reach". Outside the tech-savvy demographics, people are more likely to know what WeChat and QQ are than they are to know about say, Snapchat, or Pinterest, for example.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago

samfisher83 10y ago

A billion people is 3 times the size of America. Even if you can get 30% of that is bigger than the entire twitter user base.

StavrosK 10y ago

> would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Facebook clone? Chinese Twitter clone? I'd use it more readily than I'd use the american counterpart. I have to travel to the US sometimes, but not so much in China, so China knowing things about me affects me much less. > I don't know about you, but I'd think twice before feeding my child Chinese formula or taking a flight in a Chinese made airplane. As others said, yeah, you're already doing those things. Everything is made in China. > China's reach is China. That's why you never see "made in China" stickers on anything. > They may have a billion person market but last I checked that was only 1/7th the world. That's also the largest country in the world, and it's the only market you can say that for. The US is 1/20th of the world.

endisukaj 10y ago
> I'd use it more readily than I'd use the american counterpart. I have to travel to the US sometimes, but not so much in China, so China knowing things about me affects me much less. Why does traveling in the US and the US knowing things about you affect you? > As others said, yeah, you're already doing those things. Everything is made in China. Not by Chinese companies though. Individual parts are made there, but they are designed by non-Chinese companies and the manufacturing process is overseen by these companies. > That's why you never see "made in China" stickers on anything. See my last point. > That's also the largest country in the world, and it's the only market you can say that for. The US is 1/20th of the world. Last time I checked, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram (not to mention Apple products and Google) were used outside the US as well. I don't think anyone in Europe uses a Chinese Facebook clone or Twitter clone.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  > Why does traveling in the US and the US knowing things about you affect you? Because I can be detained by a country (or denied entry) much more easily when I am in the country than when I am not. > Not by Chinese companies though. Individual parts are made there, but they are designed by non-Chinese companies and the manufacturing process is overseen by these companies. I don't believe that "Chinese company" automatically equals "crap". Xiaomi makes some of the best products I've ever used (and they definitely have the best quality to price ratio of anyone), my Huawei phone is amazing, everything I bought from Ali has been good, etc. > Last time I checked, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram (not to mention Apple products and Google) were used outside the US as well. I don't think anyone in Europe uses a Chinese Facebook clone or Twitter clone. The western world uses those products. I would be surprised if nobody outside China uses them. Maybe they don't, I don't know the WeChat penetration numbers for countries outside China...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

inimino 10y ago

What's your point? You seem to be bothered that people are talking about the world's biggest market. Why?

quirkafleeg 10y ago

> would you use a Chinese email provider? Chinese Facebook clone? Chinese Twitter clone? Probably not, but only because I speak English, and (the originals of) those services exist in English. If I spoke or was Chinese, why not?

nerdwaller 10y ago
I may be wrong, but I believe they are trying to imply the government's oversight on such services, which in my opinion is a valid concern. However, they're (China) at least not pretending like they aren't involved heavily like, say, the US government that tries to hide they have their fingers in mass amounts of data and servers. The reality is most major economic power governments seem to be.

cm3 10y ago

Despite conflicts and power games one might follow on the news, the world economy is totally global. This also includes supplies coming from armed conflict or politically volatile regions. If you completely disassemble your Detroit-branded car, you will be surprised how many countries supplied parts for it, from all across the world, including Europe, Japan, China, etc. This isn't advertised as much, but for some components, Japan is the world leader due to quality, despite the situation of their overall economy. Just like Germany supplies many components or instruments you won't read about on news sites. Fifty percent of the world's surgical equipment is manufactured in Tuttlingen (Germany). Over 400 medical supply companies are situated there. It's like the Shenzhen of medical tools in terms of concentration and market penetration. It's even more interesting in the context of what you wrote, if you look at where the rest of the surgical supplies come from. Therefore, given that you trust a car which consists of many components built outside the US, and your surgeon probably operates on you with tools made in Germany, everyone is already trusting the global economy and "evil countries" with their lives. Now, to answer your question about email providers, I'm with StavrosK here that using a Russian or Chinese service is safer if you're a European or US resident because of data access laws. The US govt is still fighting Microsoft to provide access under US laws to data stored in European data centers, now in revision after initial defeat. You should still encrypt or skip email for sensitive communication, but the ease with which the government that can imprison you can access your emails is proportionally more difficult the farther away from your region and its close allies you get. EDIT: My impression is that the global economy began in earnest with the great European resource grab (or robbery if you like) via sea shipping across the globe, and it only got more global with time and stayed mostly on sea.

nullnilvoid 10y ago

Why do you care about people talking about China? If China's reach is only China, if most folks don't use Chinese products, why do you even bother replying?

wodenokoto 10y ago

I use WeChat, so I guess I would. When making video calls, me and my friends joke about whether we want Beijing or Washington to listen in (WeChat or Facebook) As for using other Chinese made things, I do use an Apple computer and smart phone. They are also made in China (though Apple prefers to use the word "assemble")