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It's a very light analysis from me, so might not be fully true, but I live in the US, now in Europe, and in Canada before that. You could also say Canada is kin
by jypepin 10y ago
It's a very light analysis from me, so might not be fully true, but I live in the US, now in Europe, and in Canada before that.
You could also say Canada is kind of in the middle.
Well, maybe correlation doesn't imply causation in that case but here is what I can see:
- US > Canada > Europe in terms of opportunities, be it starting salary, end-of-career salaries, and everything in the middle such as promotions, personal growth, etc.
- Europe > Canada > US in terms of social support
- Europe > Canada > US in terms of work/life balance.
And it's interesting to see how things are different and it looks like there IS causation.
- People in the US work more
- The separation between work and personal life
In the US people all have their emails/chats on their personal cellphone, will work on weekends without much reason, will be talking about work with friends more, will show more passion about their company, will show more ambition.
In Europe, people seem to take their job more as a secondary things AFTER their life. Their have less coworkers-friends, they talk less about work, show less ambition about a promotion/new job coming.
- People seem to try harder at lower scale jobs in the US
There is often the excuse of the tips for waiters etc.. but it's the same for customer support and things like that.
When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way worst. People to try as hard to make the extra effort, etc.
Overall you really explicitly see and feel that most people just see their current job as an end state, versus in the US people constantly work hard to reach the next step and have more ambition.
I'm sure it's in part because there are indeed less opportunities (harder to get promotions, salaries varies less, etc.) and it's harder to move from a class to another compared to the US.
That's mostly my feeling, but it seems like it's so obvious... and Canada, really, is in the middle of those 2 extremes.
- RandomName2020 10y ago> it's harder to move from a class to another compared to the US. Not true: social mobility in US is lower than in Europe and Canada.
- pc86 10y ago[Citation needed]
- Futurebot 10y agohttp://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/03/the-mobility-myth http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/03/the-mobility-my... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/america-social-mobility-parents-income/399311/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/america-... http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/05/27/inequality-and-social-mobility-be-afraid/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/05... http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/ http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobil... http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21640316-children-rich-and-powerful-are-increasingly-well-suited-earning-wealth-and-power http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21640316-children-ric... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/03/theres-only-one-way-to-save-the-american-dream/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/03/there...
- e12e 10y agoA little Googling seem to suggest that this figure is somewhat representative: the US has slightly more mobility than the UK, which have less mobility than most of Europe: http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/ http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobil...
- refurb 10y agoWait a second. That data just measures correlation between father and son in terms of income. Thinking through it, if you had more sons do worse than their fathers economically, they would show up better in this data. It's not measuring upward mobility, but mobility in general. Seems suspect.
- e12e 10y agoYes, this is true - a short article with more data on Canada goes a little deeper: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2016059-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2016059-eng.ht... The rich stay rich, more than the poor stay poor (in Canada). But the number is about [relative change in income across] the population - if most people are poor (which they are) high mobility across the population likely means poor people are moving up (or indeed getting much poorer - halving your income when you're already in the lower quartile would probably be as big a shift as doubling it - if not more). You're right to ask for more detail, though.
- wmeredith 10y agoSource?
- zelos 10y agoFirst hit on Google: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility Graph down the bottom.
- e12e 10y agoA bit disappointing to see you're being down-voted, based on a glance at that wp article, it links to a lot of relevant research (and the gp's statement can hardly be seen as controversial to anyone that's paid even cursory attention to social (in)equality and social studies in the past decades?). It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of the UK on the various countries though.
- refurb 10y agoThat data is a proxy for income mobility. It's measuring the correlation between generations. As I mentioned in another reply, it's not measuring upward mobility, but mobility in general. If a country had a future generation do worse economically it would show up as having better mobility.
- callcall 10y agohttp://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/...
- Spooky23 10y agoThere's at least two Americas. If you are born middle class or with an intact family structure or immigrate, opportunity is unlimited. If you're born here poor/without a family structure, or were born in the wrong place, you're stuck in a feudal-like system.
- sethammons 10y agoAnecdata: It can be escaped. I grew up in a divorced household. Poor. In the middle of nowhere. I even had a kid early, at 15. I'm now firmly in the middle class. I feel that if I were less risk adverse, I could find myself moving even higher up.
- jandrewrogers 10y agoThis is only because "social mobility" is in terms of percentiles, which doesn't account for differences in income variance between countries. The US has anomalously high income variance, so large changes in absolute income can equate to relatively small changes in the percentile. To put it another way, if everyone made the same wage, an increase in salary of $1 would check the box for "social mobility" because it would move you into the top percentile.
- RandomName2020 10y agoNot sure about this kind of rationalization. Social mobility is a more sophisticated measure.
- fauigerzigerk 10y agoOn the other hand, the incentive to rise above your parents' percentile is much less if that next percentile doesn't feel much better. At the end of the day, the difficulty with these comparisons is that social mobility measured in percentiles may be the same in a country where it is next to impossible to rise above your parents' social class as in a country where it is completely pointless to even want that.
- fsloth 10y agoI'd claim in many european nations rising is motivated by percieved better chances to have a psychologically fullfilling career, rather than considerable improvement in finances - since the increases are not that thrillingly high. But does this make the urge to rise pointless? In my country (Finland), for instance we don't force anyone to live in the streets. IMO, this creates huge amount of value from second order network effects - better childhoods, better social stability, people are more employable (if we only had jobs). I hope we can still afford this amount of social wellfare after a few decades.
- fauigerzigerk 10y agoI agree completely. But doing something _only_ for the purpose of moving into a higher income bracket may indeed be pointless (or less desirable) in a more equal society. In such a society, any meaningful definition of social mobility has to include more than just income percentiles.
- refurb 10y agoThat might be true in the aggregate, but I imagine it's not for specific groups. Why else would so many people move to the US for job opportunities?
- RandomName2020 10y ago1. Because US is big. 2. Because it is more welcoming for immigrants. 3. Because of broken H1B system.
- digikata 10y agoBecause it had great (and I mean multi-generational enduring American Dream great) PR from after WWII thru at least the late 60's.
- coriny 10y agoThe post-WW2 soft power strategy by the US was awesome and extremely effective. Sadly, it seems that by the 70s the pentagon had become solely obsessed with the projection of hard power. I personally reckon this has a huge amount to do with the decline of the US's popularity around the globe in the subsequent decades.
- ionised 10y agoAs an outside observer and frequent critic of US foreign policy I would agree.
- stannol 10y agoThe number of immigrants per capita in the US is not especially high. It's lower than in Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Germany and similar to most Western European nations.
- endisukaj 10y ago> Not true: social mobility in US is lower than in Europe and Canada. I can't speak about Canada but I seriously doubt that social mobility is higher in Europe. Again, you can't generalize. It may be far easier to move from a class to another in Germany than for example Italy or France.
- coriny 10y agoIt's a difficult thing to compare, so I wouldn't totally believe the absolute comparisons, but generally most countries in Europe are considered to have higher social mobility than the US. The exceptions are Italy & the UK, with maybe France level pegging with the US. e.g. https://www.oecd.org/eco/growth/NERO-22-June-2015-income-inequality-social-mobility-and-economic-growth.pdf https://www.oecd.org/eco/growth/NERO-22-June-2015-income-ine...
- oriolid 10y agoCan you back your doubts with numbers from a credible source?
- papaf 10y agoAnother comparison of social mobility: http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/81/1/WRAP_Naylor_twerp_781.pdf http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/81/1/WRAP_Naylor_twerp_781.pdf Mobility is lower in the U.S. than in the U.K., where it is lower again compared to t he Nordic countries. Persis- tence is greatest in the tails of the distributions and tends to be particularly high in the upper tails: though in the U.S. this is reversed with a particularl y high likelihood that sons of the poorest fathers will remain in the lowest earnings quintile . This is a challenge to the popu- lar notion of ’American exceptionalism’.
- lagadu 10y agoProbably harder but social class in Europe is mostly unrelated to wealth, while in the US the two are closely knit, which is what is often measured.
- ionised 10y agoYeah, it baffles me when people bring this up. US social mobility and wealth inequality are among the worst in the developed world.
- deanCommie 10y agoCompletely agreed having lived and worked in all 3. Canada is the sweet spot.
- jacquesm 10y agoIf you're well educated. If you're not then you'll find yourself working much harder in Canada to stay afloat than in Europe.
- rhapsodic 10y agoI have a lot of relatives in Alberta. And it seems like the oil industry there is providing a lot of opportunity for people without college degrees to make a good living. But of course, that's just Alberta. I can't comment on the rest of the country.
- jacquesm 10y agoYes, but that's very hard work and quite a few of the people that moved to the territories to participate in the boom there already lost their shirt due to the prolonged drop in the price of oil. Alberta is a bit different because the extraction is easier. You can make money in lumber, oil, mining, fishing and lots of other industries but it will not be 'easy' money by any definition, and if you get out without injury then you should consider yourself lucky. Long days, very hard work.
- todd8 10y agoYes, logging and fishing are the most dangerous professions by far according to [1]. [1] http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/ http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- bengalister 10y agoIt does not match my own experience. I worked a few years in Canada (Québec) and liked it very much. I found that the work-life balance was much better than in France. It was more constant throughout the year. People have fewer vacations than in France 3-4 weeks/year with a few sick days vs 6-8 weeks/year but the daily working hours are lower (9-5) with quick lunch break where in France it is more 9-7 with a long lunch break (only in the private sector and in IT). The more constant working pace is much better for work. In France it is very complex to schedule a meeting when everybody can attend (there's always someone in vacation) and in summer it is nightmare for managers to find people to make a project going forward. The mood at work was much better in Canada, people were more friendly, less stressed due to a better organization (easier than in France) and also to be fair due to a lower unemployment rate. I did not have the impression to work more than in France to stay afloat, but maybe because because it was going smoother.
- parennoob 10y ago> People seem to try harder at lower scale jobs in the US There is often the excuse of the tips for waiters etc.. but it's the same for customer support and things like that. When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way worst. People to try as hard to make the extra effort, etc. As a person from a third country talking about the USA and Europe (lives in US, traveled in EU), this absolutely rings true. At grocery stores in the US people have been unfailingly polite and courteous to me (even though they don't get any tips or anything). So at my job, if I have to interact with customers I always try to maintain that attitude. Meanwhile in Europe they are usually grim faced and have a "get on with it" attitude, and have occasionally yelled or grimaced at me for minor errors like using a chip card wrong.
- patrickk 10y ago> When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way worst. This varies dramatically within Europe. From personal experience, customer service is decent, polite and timely in the UK and Ireland, and generally awful in Germany. It's difficult to generalise across a continent with 700mil+ people (500+ mil in the EU), with enormous cultural variations and expectations of good service (much greater variations than in the US).
- salmon30salmon 10y agoThere is a great variation in the United States. A country of 300 million people, where each state has a unique culture and identity. For some reason, "American" is often generalized to be a caricature that I, having lived in the Pacific Northwest my entire life, have never encountered.
- ObeyTheGuts 10y agowow, are u saying states in usa have same level culture difference like european countries? just in spain alone we have 4 different OFFICIAL languages
- sremani 10y agoNo but there is enough regional difference, between East Coast, South, West Coast and Pacific North West. Even though most of the suburbs look alike thanks to mono-cultures and business franchises. The general regional vibe if you observe has some stark contrasts. Again USA is 300 million people, from Rio Grande Valley to Seattle. Spain has 4 different official languages, but more languages are spoken in US than Spain. edit: I am not even counting the contrast of Native American Reservations to Metropolis like NY, LA.
- salmon30salmon 10y agoIf I walk into a government building in my state, I will pick up a pamphlet which has notices in English, Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese and Arabic. I can walk down a street and hear each of those languages being spoken. Are you really going to tell me that the Vietnamese experience in the United States is basically the same as the English experience? If so, please come visit on of the top 30 cities in the United States and spend a few days walking around different districts and interacting with different people. Don't believe what our exported media is telling you, we are far from a monoculture.
- novaleaf 10y agoMy own analogy is USA and Thailand. in terms of geopolitical differences, I think the "Protestant work ethic" tradition is a large driver of USA perceptions on work. Conversely in Thailand, the emphasis on hierarchy and workplace harmony (no critical conversations) disincentives sticking one's head out, including working longer to work on a perceived deadlines.
- yodsanklai 10y ago> When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way worst. I remember a sign at a Mac Donald's in New York that said something like "if the waiter doesn't smile, you get a free burger". In Europe you may not get the forced smile, but it doesn't mean the service is worse. Overall, I'd say the service is slightly better in the US, but you can see it's totally fake and I find it a little bit disturbing.
- ido 10y agoHaving to wait a much longer time till waiters acknowledge you in the German-speaking countries is certainly a bigger part of it than the smiling or lack there of.
- pbhjpbhj 10y agoIs that just "design" of the culture though? If you're working 20% less of the time you've more time to relax; perhaps then you don't need to stress if you've a little more time to chat before your strudel arrives. Personally I hate it when you've only just sat down and the waiter is asking what you want, especially if it's a big menu and you've arrived at a meal time.
- touristtam 10y agoAnd I hate when you have to wait 20 min for the "garcon de cafee" to even notice you have finished and want the bill.
- ido 10y agoRight, you can tell an early waiter you need a couple more minutes, but you can't (easily) tell a late waiter to come early. What's even more annoying than them not coming on their own is that they actively try to avoid eye contact.
- k__ 10y agoMost of the time I feel like US or UK people are fake, because of all the forced smalltalk. Yes, this is their culture and I respect it, but I just don't feel comfortable with it :/
- Aaargh20318 10y ago> When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way worst. People to try as hard to make the extra effort, etc. When you call customer support in the US, you get someone in India who barely speaks English. If you call customer support in the Netherlands you get a Dutch person because no one outside the Netherlands speaks Dutch. Also, due to better consumer protection laws the actual results are often way better too.
- netule 10y agoHonestly, most times, the Indian representative does just fine. In all my time here, I can count on one hand the times that a customer service rep was ineffective. Larger companies especially (Amazon, WalMart, etc.) will bend over backwards to please the customer. My experiences in NL dealing with customer service has been bad on average. Disclaimer: lived in the Netherlands for 20 years, living in the US for 12 years now.
- Accacin 10y agoI actually never thought of that. We have the same "problem" in the UK with support, although I've noticed more companies trying to get support back into the UK and these are the companies I try and do business with.
- foldr 10y ago>When you call customer support in the US, you get someone in India who barely speaks English. They usually speak excellent English in my experience. Holding a phone conversation in a second language is very difficult.
- anthony_barker 10y agoWhere in the US and where in Europe...? It is very hard to generalize San Fran vs Toronto vs Paris or Cleveland vs Vancouver vs London