10 ms·
Ever young?
- jacquesm 10y agoThere are two short-cuts to growing up: losing both your parents or having children.
- blfr 10y agoThe second one in particular. Why bother with owning a house or a car if not with the end goal in mind of supporting kids? It's all for naught otherwise. If you don't have anyone you need to provide with stability, you're better off renting and ubering. You can always live within walking distance from your workplace for example. Also, while you don't have to wear a suit, many, many adults would benefit greatly from dressing like adults. Sure, the times change, fashions come and go, models of behaviour change a little, but putting effort in your appearance is timeless. When I see a guy in his 40s wearing cargo shorts, I'm thinking "arrested development."
- dasmoth 10y ago>>> Why bother with owning a house or a car if not with the end goal in mind of supporting kids? That's an incredibly... urban...? [1] point of view. For me, the #1 argument for owning a car is flexibility -- knowing you've got the option to drop things at a moment's notice and head off to... wherever. Owning a house is also an enabler for things which might be meaningful to those without children: building up and maintaining a garden, for one. Hobbies which need a decent-sized, stable, workshop tend to be easier in a house you own than in a rental, too. (We do have a child now, but my wife and I owned both house and car for years before deciding we wanted children. And now have rather less time for hobbies that make houses and cars essential...) [1] Not so much in the specifically "city" sense, but in the sense of preferring external infrastructure vs. building up and maintaining enough infrastructure of your own to feel somewhat self-sufficient.
- blfr 10y agoThat's an incredibly... urban...? Yes. I was going to add car racing or some offroader as an exception but most people live in cities and don't have that kind of hobbies. And it's probably still more convenient to join a hacker space.
- dasmoth 10y agoI don't think we're going to agree on this one. Hackerspace vs. "own workshop" are completely different things. If objective convenience is your only metric, Hackerspace might well win, but living near one places a lot of constraints on other areas of your lifestyle, and it's never going to give a feeling of self-sufficiency. (Edit: this shouldn't be taken as a criticism of Hackerspaces -- they're a great compromise for people who otherwise like the tradeoffs that urban lifestyles bring, and can be fun to visit even if you don't need to borrow the tools).
- e12e 10y agoYes and no. I'd have a hard time driving from Norway to the US, or Japan. I might drive to Germany, but it would be much more pleasant to fly, take a combination of train and boat, or just go by train. There are certainly perks to having a car - around here, being able to just drive a few kilometers (beyond walk/bike distance) opens up new hiking routes, for example. But isn't that what friends are for? ;-)
- rsync 10y ago"Yes and no. I'd have a hard time driving from Norway to the US, or Japan. I might drive to Germany, but it would be much more pleasant to fly, take a combination of train and boat, or just go by train." I encourage you, no, plead with you - drive your car to Germany. It's so much fun and so enjoyable and spontaneous to drive internationally. You can stop anywhere something interests you and hold to whatever timeline you like. One of the more stupefying cultural traits of young europeans that I know is the unwillingness (even among car owners) to take driving vacations. This is especially unbelievable when you consider that europeans could literally drive to China, let alone Italy/Greece/Russia/CZ/Spain/Turkey/etc.
- skybrian 10y agoI don't know, it seems to me that being grown-up (or maybe just old) means no longer caring what other people think, particularly about fashion.
- return0 10y agoFeeling of safety? I m richer than my siblings who have kids because i was more driven. If i dont have own kids, nieces will inherit, however that's not my main motivation.
- rayiner 10y ago> The second one in particular. Why bother with owning a house or a car if not with the end goal in mind of supporting kids? Sweet tax bennies, at least in the U.S.
- wyager 10y agoThe very approximate rule of thumb is that purchasing is economically preferable to renting if you're planning to live in that location for more than 4 or 5 years. I'm not sure how you figure that owning a car is related to raising children. If I had to guess, I would say you lived in a very dense urban environment. Your statement just seems kind of insane anywhere else. Given that I have interests outside of work, I don't actually want to live within three minutes of my workplace if there's more fun to be had living farther away. Based on the wording of your last paragraph, it sounds like you may not actually have a good argument for wearing nice clothes, and are just advocating it because that's what you see other people doing. The reason I try to dress nicely is that it's cheap psychological hack. For whatever reason, most people, including myself to some degree, have some sort of innate bias towards people who look well dressed. This could be because it correlates with social status, or wealth, or any other number of factors, but regardless of why it's the case, it's a very cheap way to buy social credit. It's up to you whether or not this increase in social credit is worth the financial and comfort cost of wearing nice clothes.
- k__ 10y agoDon't know. I had a few people at my last company who were much younger than me and had children. The only thing I noticed, was, that they started to "talk" older, but their actions didn't seem rather "grown up" to me... I have the feeling, getting children switches people in the "Now I'm adult and need to be responsible" mode without giving them the needed knowledge how to execute this behaviour, mostly cargo culting around.
- woliveirajr 10y agoWhen I was a kid, adults were boring people that kept saying no and used all those formal clothes all the time. Now that I'm in my 40s, I'm so cool, it's just a coincidence that I have to watch out my little girl and tell her to not do this out that every 15 minutes. [/sarcasm]
- kawera 10y ago"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." (generally attributed to Mark Twain)
- WalterSear 10y agoHe forgot to mention that after that, it's a long slow walk back to 14 again, as you realize how out of touch they had been all along.
- draw_down 10y agoYes! Nobody talks about this part of the curve. It really sucks.
- dominotw 10y agoI remember reading a tweet that went like this. Daughter : Dad when can I stop taking these afternoon naps. Dad: when you actually want to take them.
- amelius 10y agoPerspective from a woman [1]: > Men in their 30s are running around like children, sabotaging relationships and their lives without obligation or thought of consequence. Why? [1] https://escapingpan.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/hello-world/ https://escapingpan.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/hello-world/
- k__ 10y agoKnow a bunch of women with that problem. Don't know how they do it, but somehow they always get idiots (relationship wise). The guys ages ranges fron 20 to 40, the only thing that changes is that older guys pose with their money and younger with their stamina/fitness. On the other hand I have two girlfriends who are sometimes dating other men and the other guys often end up being idiots, too... Maybe most people are simply bad at relationships?
- ChoHag 10y agoThe perspective from this woman appears to be that men need to become responsible and that things merely happen to women; passive participants in life who don't need to take responsibility for their own actions (because that's what men are for). Much like the original article (I base my worldview on the opinions of those around me) the problem is internal (she thinks she's a princess) but the blame goes outward (nobody treats her like one). I guess neither has learned how to be a grown up. Considering the shape society has formed recently, I'm not surprised.
- woliveirajr 10y ago> Much like the original article (I base my worldview on the opinions of those around me) the problem is internal (she thinks she's a princess) but the blame goes outward (nobody treats her like one). This. IMO you become an adult when you stop thinking what others should/could do for you and you take responsibility on what you could and should do for someone else.
- wyager 10y agoI think the GP's point was that you're not obligated to "take responsibility" for someone else in the general case, to the chagrin of the author. The only people I would generally accept responsibility for is a spouse or child.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoI feel like a complete failure at "adulting" too. Then again, I don't want to succeed at it. I'm not done having fun. Same goes for nearly all of my friends. I've lost both parents, and had kids, and I get on with the kids in a way I doubt my parents could have conceived of. I want to feel they're friends until I drop. By my age my parents were fully paid up members of middle age and led dull lives, as all their generation seemed to. They were very different people to how they described their 20s. I still recognise the me of my 20s. I'm not even becoming more conservative, I've got more liberal except in clothes! What possible reason is there to grow up? I see no benefit to it, for anyone.
- rsync 10y ago"What possible reason is there to grow up? I see no benefit to it, for anyone." The reason would be a time horizon for your family that is greater than one (or zero) generations. If your family, as a cohesive and architected entity, is just something that you do in your own lifespan for your own happiness or fulfillment, then there may indeed be no reason for you to "grow up". Perhaps a friendly, peer relationship to your children is a good model. It probably doesn't make much difference. Speaking of your parents, they were probably caught in a weird no-mans-land between very traditional narratives of family planning and growth and our own very modern, dis-integrated narrative. It may interest you to know that the longer you push out the arc of the timeline of your family, the more it becomes necessary to "behave like an adult". It may also interest you to know that no project could be as complex, intricate, risky and fulfilling as transforming a union between one man and one woman into a heirarchical, muti-generational enterprise. Odds are very good that I will fail at this.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoHm. Interesting post, not a perspective I've seen in quite those terms before. Time horizon is that of the kids, and they've been priority, certainly until they get out of education. Only one is still to come of age, so friendly works, earlier it was more parental. Neither of us wanted to repeat our discipline first childhoods. You may be right, there was huge change in their lifetimes. The last part sounds more like building a dynasty. If the proceeds of a startup were in the bank perhaps, but I'd still hope to retain a sense of enjoyment for the kids and us! We'll get them through uni, leave a useful amount, but not anything worthy of family trust.
- hprotagonist 10y agoA loose but accurate criterion for failure is use of the term "adulting".
- blamestross 10y agoIn the US culture i grew up in, i feel like adulting meant: - finding a job to do until you retire/die - having kids, and having them be your primary purpose in life - rightfully abandoning any long term other than attempting to retire All the other things seem to derive from the above. Honestly adulting literally seems like the first stages of an acceptance of death and aging the change of priorities as a consequence. I think, that given the same inputs (impending infirmities and death) you can come to very different conclusions. I don't have time for kids or retirement because i have a hell of a lot to get done before i die and i'll be working on it right up to the deadline.
- hilop 10y agoI don't have time for working I need to raise my kids before I die.
- mcguire 10y agoI think Heinlein wrote that no woman was ever older than 18 in her own mind. My corollary is that no man is ever older than 12.
- digi_owl 10y agoThe big difference may well be that women are allowed to act out their inner age, while men are expected to behave their age (whatever the F that means).
- ljf 10y agoDo you think so? I think if anything it's been historically men that keep the toys (cars, golf, nights with the boys) . In the last generation or 2 women seem to have also been allowed a life outside of the home, and a role other than 'adult mother' Or do you mean something else?
- DamnYuppie 10y agoI am guessing he was referencing how they behave and express themselves to their friends, family, and significant others.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- happy-go-lucky 10y agoJust finished watching E.T. This is for the nth time. Came here, started reading all these comments with a heavy heart. As a child, I always hated growing up.
- smorrow 10y agoThat's interesting. In Escape From Childhood in particular, John Holt's point of view is something along the lines of: children, being stuck in ("the institution of) childhood ("), look at the world and are always thinking of growing up, and what they want to do when they grow up, and so on. Roslyn Ross, who actually has a son, observes the same thing. If it happens that some children want to remain in childhood, I suppose a possible explanation is that there could be an allegory-of-the-cave effect. I think most people like making their own decisions until adult interference gets to the point of making them worse at it.
- digi_owl 10y agoThen again i see supposed adults behave worse than kids given half an excuse.
- norswap 10y agoI became an adult the day I started expecting being treated as one. There are many more things that go about adulthood, and I guess the most defining would be to take responsibility for one's own action. I had taken responsibility already, it just had not occurred to me that I did not need to defer to other people because of age and experience. (Not that it is bad to defer to more experienced people, but it should be a conscious decision.)
- agumonkey 10y agoI think this is what used to be rites of passage. A symbolic timeline for young ones to forget immature behavior, and "believe" in adult behavior, a quick turnaround allowing both sides to adapt. Old respect you, and you respect the old. Instead most "modern" cultures just relies on some cultural market and institutions (like legally defined adult age) which allows drifting for years before finding the inner desire to be seen as an altruistic adult and behaving like one.
- draw_down 10y agoI don't really like living for the benefit of others. I've noticed in my life that the more I'm working to fulfill the expectations of others, or taking care of things that they either can't do or can't do well, the more miserable that makes me. I'd say that adulthood is in several respects the process of acclimating to living your life for others. This article spends a lot of time talking about the trappings, like cars and stuff. For me at least, having or not having that stuff has never been the issue with adulthood.
- nemo1618 10y ago>I don't really like living for the benefit of others. It's much easier (satisfying, even) when the other people are friends, family, spouse, neighbors... people you care about. It is no sacrifice to expend time and energy helping these people.
- draw_down 10y agoShort term, I readily agree. Longer term... I start to get resentful, I get tired of doing the same thing I've done a hundred times before. A kindness extended for long enough becomes an obligation. I think people should basically be able to handle things on their own. To be clear, I don't think it's good that I feel this way. I don't think more people should be like me. But this is how I am, and attempting to deny the fact has only led to resentment, depression, and a bad time for all involved.
- ionised 10y ago> It is no sacrifice to expend time and energy helping these people. That depends entirely on who they are.
- hilop 10y agoIt's a lot more fun living to enjoy the benfits others provide to me.
- jksmith 10y agoI will not be sharing my FB page on HN.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- stefs 10y agowell, in my opinion: what we call "adulting" is what we see when we are kids and watch our parents. but what we see is an act they perform for us - as role models - and we perceive it without all required background knowledge (because, well, we're kids). so when we grow up and the reality doesn't exactly match our expectations, the assumption is that we're not doing it right. usually, at least when we - or close friends - get kids, the acting is explained. and we might have aquired the background knowledge, but the settings have changed. i don't think we refuse to grow up. it's just that being an adult is not what we thought it to be when we attached meaning to the word.
- rhlala 10y agoI find a lot of times grew-up means dedicate less time to learn/play/being creative, and more time to consum and work/produce (if you not call it slavery) I will stay with that proverb: I am getting older, thats mean i have been younger longer than you!