7 ms·

Reading the comments on articles like this on hacker news always make me deeply uncomfortable to be a woman in tech. I know it's hard to believe, but women don

by calex 10y ago

Reading the comments on articles like this on hacker news always make me deeply uncomfortable to be a woman in tech. I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google. If you're a woman in this industry, it's GENERALLY because it is something that you very much care about and want to do. It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted, it's just that the women who go into tech are usually already pretty gritty people. You're comparing a very driven and passionate subset of women to a very general subset of men. Here's a really great article I read once -- "I need terrible female engineers": https://medium.com/@amyngyn/i-need-terrible-female-engineers-1023a2e973dd#.l85nr149d https://medium.com/@amyngyn/i-need-terrible-female-engineers...

this2shallpaas 10y ago
"I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google." Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. And of people that do these things, historically more have probably been men than women (don't have the stats, but it sounds reasonable). But how many men do you think do those things, vs those that don't? Some anecdata: I didn't do any of those. Of all the engineers I can think of, male and female, very very few went to coding summer camps or took AP computer science. Few had best friends in CS in university, but sure, more did this than AP computer science or coding summer camp. And few had sweet internships at tech companies.
- calex 10y ago
  Oh great, more anecdotes in this thread. There are the cold hard facts, you know: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-gender-and-race-gap-starts-in-high-school/282966/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-g... >"It's already too late," Paul Graham, founder of the tech entrepreneur boot camp Y Combinator, said last month in a controversial interview. "What we should be doing is somehow changing the middle school computer science curriculum or something like that." >Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. So let's put aside anecdotes and reactionary attitudes and just look at the facts.
  - FT_intern 10y ago
    >Who makes high school students' schedules? The students. AP comp sci at my high school was an elective that people took. The people who didn't take it chose whatever elective they were interested in (water basket weaving, guitar, etc.). And what motivated the people to choose AP comp sci? This is just an anecdote but almost everyone in my AP comp sci class was into gaming/nerdy hobbies/internet forums/etc.
    - warfangle 10y ago
      Would you be surprised to find out that some parents decide on their high school students' electives for them?
      - FT_intern 10y ago
        If you mean "decide" as in force them to take it, then yes I would be surprised. In my experience, even the high achieving parents didn't force them to take specific classes. They put pressure on their kids (both genders equally, tiger mom does not care about gender roles) to take STEM AP classes in general instead of specific ones. Those students decide which STEM AP classes to take (except for Calc which parents stressed more). This was before knowledge of comp sci salaries have gone mainstream (before 2012), although it's still a relevant, anecdotal reflection on the backgrounds of current software engineers. My AP comp sci class was actually composed of non-high achieving people. AP comp sci was the only AP class many of the students took. The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. I think AP comp sci was actually considered lower status/prestige compared to the sciences Physics/Chem/Bio among the high achieving students.
        warfangle 10y ago
        > The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't like to take classes filled with spiteful boys with chips on their shoulders? The 'whatever reason' is the important part.
- pyre 10y ago
  > Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. I think this is more of a "of the people that get these things, most are men" than a "all men get these things."
  - calex 10y ago
    YES, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you for not misunderstanding me.
BigJeffeRonaldo 10y ago
Not all men in tech are frilly little fancy boys/AP turbogeeks. I'm a high school dropout who rose from the bottom by saving up manual labor wages to attend a community college for two years, then managed to attend my state school for two years thanks to a transfer scholarship and pell grants. I finished the school's cs and math bachelors programs in their entirety in two years by overloading every semester and ruthless scheduling, while also working part-time. That said I support women in tech greatly. My wife is rapidly outpacing men of similar or greater experience levels in her current position because she simply works longer hours, does tons of off-hours self-healing, and focuses on what really matters to the team rather than working on pet projects of little importance. I.e. she is working both harder and smarter. The men in these comments sections need to deadlift
- calex 10y ago
  I never said anything about "all" or "most" men. I have no idea why everyone is replying as if I did. Everything I said is super general and is backed up with data. Good for you for pulling it together. Seriously. I went the service industry to community college route myself.
  - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
    ... generalizations tend to imply all or most as a matter of course. It's why they're generalizations.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      She literally didn't even offer commentary on what any/many/all men do whatsoever.
      - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
        "I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google." I never mentioned men, but since you decided to make it a point, her generalization is that women are being denied these things. Given that there are two genders, I'll leave it as an exercise as to which one she's referring to when she lists these activities.
kevrone 10y ago
What you say rings true. However, the only thing we really know for sure, and for which there is a mountain of evidence, is that women as a group face significantly greater challenges in this industry than men do. That may filter for various traits in women such as greater levels of grit, but I'm going to wait until this particular survey is corroborated by further study before I buy into the idea that women and men in our industry are significantly differentiated by something like personal drive. I can believe it, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on this evidence alone. Great Medium article by the way.
FT_intern 10y ago
>I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, Males aren't either. The difference in participation is caused by men engaging in nerdy hobbies more than women (trawling BB boards, playing online video games, etc.). Why this happens, no one really knows.
pikachu_is_cool 10y ago
If we're making generalizations here, then women generally don't like hunching over a computer monitor in isolation for 6+ hours every day. Much like how men generally don't like to put on makeup and act in plays.
return0 10y ago
The fact that there are way too many IT people from poor immigrant backgrounds (no opportunities for anything you mention) discredits your first point. > it's GENERALLY because it is something that you very much care about and want to do. Given that there is a higher demand for IT jobs than supply makes this impossible. You just have to be good at it.
- mcv 10y ago
  Since when are there "way too many" IT people from poor immigrant backgrounds? As far as I can tell, programmers are more likely to be from the educated middle class.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Based on the undertone of the entire comment, I figure there were "way too many" as soon as n >= 1.
  - MollyR 10y ago
    Probably referring to asians(including indians). Outside of silicon valley, you see a lot of asian developers whose families came from poor immigrant families.
    - mcv 10y ago
      My experience with Indian programmers is that they tend to come from the Indian middle class. Middle class in India may be poorer than in the US, but they're still well educated.
  - dominotw 10y ago
    indian middle class == american poor. More true in 80-90's when the current crop grew up. Also, its kind of funny to be called 'middle class' in the third poorest country in the world.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
bluecalm 10y ago
I remember I made the same argument about women in chess (those already playing competitively should be better on average than men because it's harder to get into chess when you are a woman so only the most talented/driven ones make it). I was called sexist in that discussion though as chess is way more meritocratic than corporate career so the implications are that it's likely biological afterall. >>It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny.
- Mz 10y ago
  You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny. My ex husband was career army. While in the military, he double majored in CS and history. He was a socially awkward nerd. He rose though the ranks quickly. He once admitted that while excelled at the technical stuff, the fact that he was married to me was a big part of why he was a decent manager once he got promoted to the military equivalent of mid level manager. There have been studies that indicate women think of "morality" different from men -- that their idea of morality is more about caring about people. Perhaps the same traits -- caring about others -- that help make women good mothers also help make them good managers. The paternal role is typically different from the maternal one.
  - bluecalm 10y ago
    My point was that: "we strive for diversity" = discimination against men. Your story is interesting but I don't see how it relates to my point. If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions - I am all for that (as I think genders are different and men are naturally better at some things and women are better at other things and fighting this is not a good idea) but if that's the case we should get rid of all diversity planning and "striving to have more women" as that's tipping the odds even more.
jazzyk 10y ago
There are enough camps/programs targeted at young girls, that's not the problem. There is no institutional conspiracy to suppress women, the problem is strictly cultural: NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. They were all interested in environment, film/acting, fashion, literature... This self-selection came predominantly from mass-media/pop-culture, and also, to some extent, from their mothers, none of whom works in tech (we are talking a wealthy suburb in the northeast US here). They never encouraged their daughters to go into tech. The fathers did, but not too convincingly, either.
- parennoob 10y ago
  > NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. They were all interested in environment, film/acting, fashion, literature (my daughter got interested into life sciences) Popular culture in the US massively lionizes professional sports, and shames younger people who are into programming and other non-social hobbies like nobody's business. In my opinion, if "women in tech" programs put half of their resources into solving these problems, they'd be hugely more successful. Unfortunately, that involves taking on fields other than professional programming (like television, media, and such), which they are either not ready or equipped to do.
- clifanatic 10y ago
  > NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. Neither did any of the men. Not when I was in school, and not now. Being nerdy is not cool, whether you're a boy or a girl. In fact, you're more likely to get beaten up for it as a boy than as a girl.
  - loco5niner 10y ago
    Ummm.... I did (male). I didn't care if it was nerdy.
clifanatic 10y ago
> It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted, it's just that the women who go into tech are usually already pretty gritty people. Interesting that when men statistically seem to have an advantage in any area, it's a "problem" that "needs to be corrected", but if women start to statistically dominate, it's clearly because "women are just better".
- jordigh 10y ago
  It's not that they're better. It's that a woman in tech has to work twice as hard to get the same recognition as men. After working twice as hard, you tend to overshoot and end up becoming way better than the men. Mediocre women in tech just aren't allowed, whereas mediocre men are accepted. Try to read the article she linked.
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    Citations needed for pretty much every part of your post.
    - jordigh 10y ago
      Again? Read the article that both I and calex suggested you should read.
      - MollyR 10y ago
        As a women in tech. I'd like citations too. Because I'm not clear what article you are referring too,and the ones I've read in this thread and the medium article are exceptionally weak. Poor or even worse bullshit articles and poor citations just make the backlash worse, and even harder to get accepted without having to prove I'm at the least a mythical 2x-5x developer.
        jordigh 10y ago
        Due to the backfire effect[1], no amount of citation convinces the disbelievers. Those who want to believe find the articles by themselves. Those who don't experience backfire effect. But, here you go, let's try showing you a survey and a study amongst the top Google hits for "women have to work harder for the same recognition" and see what you think: https://news.virginia.edu/content/surveys-british-and-american-employees-conclude-women-must-work-harder https://news.virginia.edu/content/surveys-british-and-americ... http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerman/2013/02/24/superiority-of-female-workers-confirmed-study-finds-women-really-do-work-longer-and-harder-than-men/#6eba623e324c http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerman/2013/02/24/superio... --- [1] http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts-dont-win-arguments http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts...
BDGC 10y ago
I appreciate your comment, and I second your point about the education and social structure being different for girls/women. In my experience, it can be difficult for folks to understand just how different it can be - whether by gender, race, or lower socioeconomic status - which is completely fair. There are always exceptions to generalizations, which makes making progress in these arguments difficult. For those who still believe it's a feminist conspiracy, I encourage you to read this brief report (with links to an excellent full report) with hard numbers on the experience of women in STEM: https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-st... And if you think you're above bias, or that it doesn't exist against women, please challenge yourself with the unconscious bias test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html Stats are available after the test. I am a woman with a PhD in a STEM field, and guess what - I have biases against my own sex.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  Not to detract from your general point, but there are serious doubts over the validity of the Implicit Association Test: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sjop.12288/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sjop.12288/abstra... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288582440_Toward_a_Meaningful_Metric_of_Implicit_Prejudice_vol_100_pg_1468_2015 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288582440_Toward_a_...
  - dsg42 10y ago
    Seriously, why do you need to post this? This is the sort of thing that makes it hard to be a woman in tech. Everyone is constantly nitpicking everything you say.
    - return0 10y ago
      Especially in tech, nitpicking should not be allowed. Approximate is good enough for everyone, it's not like a battery is suddenly gonna catch fire.
    - 10y ago
throwaway921 10y ago
All this focus on women and minorities obscures the issue. White males can have problems fitting in, too. Being born into a low social class is probably more damning to your future than any external quality you might have. We need to accept that being inclusive isn't about focusing on a single group - that's singling people out again - but realize that people are being left out of whatever good thing we have as a society for any number of reasons. Understand this, and just be more accepting of people in general.
- abandonliberty 10y ago
  Often issues are made into gender/race issues because it drives readership and clicks. It's depressing as we miss the root cause and create more alienation and conflict between people. e.g. "Women don't ask" - a book with concepts on salary negotiation vital to many men I know. That said, historically there was clear gender/race discrimination. There is today in pockets, just as there is reverse discrimination. We just have to stop the discrimination.
abandonliberty 10y ago
We all have different life experiences. There is a low supply of female engineers, but rather than addressing the problem organizations implement various forms of affirmative action. Trying to fix discrimination with more discrimination. My partner is in tech. My organization has a network to support women in their careers which my female coworkers view as outright anti-male discrimination. Unfortunately, the bell curve doesn't support these policies. We have both worked with women who would have not held their position as men. It's quite frustrating, as we now have capable women forging ahead while less competent women are riding the wave of feminism and tarnishing their reputations. I'm curious. Have you not suffered this, or at least heard of it? We can't make progress on this if we all continue to willfully ignore the flaws in our arguments.
return0 10y ago
Excellent observation, and lets not forget it's not valid only in tech. Let's not forget that every boy is encouraged (some would say indoctrinated) from early age to learn the art of cooking, and to spend the evenings preparing dinner (let alone the long-standing sexist attitude - sadly still espoused by many - that men belong in the kitchen). With such an early start it's no wonder that men dominate the field and that only 6 women have managed to earn the prized 3 michelin stars.

by calex 10y ago

this2shallpaas 10y ago

"I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google." Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. And of people that do these things, historically more have probably been men than women (don't have the stats, but it sounds reasonable). But how many men do you think do those things, vs those that don't? Some anecdata: I didn't do any of those. Of all the engineers I can think of, male and female, very very few went to coding summer camps or took AP computer science. Few had best friends in CS in university, but sure, more did this than AP computer science or coding summer camp. And few had sweet internships at tech companies.

calex 10y ago
Oh great, more anecdotes in this thread. There are the cold hard facts, you know: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-gender-and-race-gap-starts-in-high-school/282966/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-g... >"It's already too late," Paul Graham, founder of the tech entrepreneur boot camp Y Combinator, said last month in a controversial interview. "What we should be doing is somehow changing the middle school computer science curriculum or something like that." >Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. So let's put aside anecdotes and reactionary attitudes and just look at the facts.
- FT_intern 10y ago
  >Who makes high school students' schedules? The students. AP comp sci at my high school was an elective that people took. The people who didn't take it chose whatever elective they were interested in (water basket weaving, guitar, etc.). And what motivated the people to choose AP comp sci? This is just an anecdote but almost everyone in my AP comp sci class was into gaming/nerdy hobbies/internet forums/etc.
  - warfangle 10y ago
    Would you be surprised to find out that some parents decide on their high school students' electives for them?
    - FT_intern 10y ago
      If you mean "decide" as in force them to take it, then yes I would be surprised. In my experience, even the high achieving parents didn't force them to take specific classes. They put pressure on their kids (both genders equally, tiger mom does not care about gender roles) to take STEM AP classes in general instead of specific ones. Those students decide which STEM AP classes to take (except for Calc which parents stressed more). This was before knowledge of comp sci salaries have gone mainstream (before 2012), although it's still a relevant, anecdotal reflection on the backgrounds of current software engineers. My AP comp sci class was actually composed of non-high achieving people. AP comp sci was the only AP class many of the students took. The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. I think AP comp sci was actually considered lower status/prestige compared to the sciences Physics/Chem/Bio among the high achieving students.
      - warfangle 10y ago
        > The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't like to take classes filled with spiteful boys with chips on their shoulders? The 'whatever reason' is the important part.
pyre 10y ago
> Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. I think this is more of a "of the people that get these things, most are men" than a "all men get these things."
- calex 10y ago
  YES, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you for not misunderstanding me.

BigJeffeRonaldo 10y ago

Not all men in tech are frilly little fancy boys/AP turbogeeks. I'm a high school dropout who rose from the bottom by saving up manual labor wages to attend a community college for two years, then managed to attend my state school for two years thanks to a transfer scholarship and pell grants. I finished the school's cs and math bachelors programs in their entirety in two years by overloading every semester and ruthless scheduling, while also working part-time. That said I support women in tech greatly. My wife is rapidly outpacing men of similar or greater experience levels in her current position because she simply works longer hours, does tons of off-hours self-healing, and focuses on what really matters to the team rather than working on pet projects of little importance. I.e. she is working both harder and smarter. The men in these comments sections need to deadlift

calex 10y ago
I never said anything about "all" or "most" men. I have no idea why everyone is replying as if I did. Everything I said is super general and is backed up with data. Good for you for pulling it together. Seriously. I went the service industry to community college route myself.
- MisterBastahrd 10y ago
  ... generalizations tend to imply all or most as a matter of course. It's why they're generalizations.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    She literally didn't even offer commentary on what any/many/all men do whatsoever.
    - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
      "I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google." I never mentioned men, but since you decided to make it a point, her generalization is that women are being denied these things. Given that there are two genders, I'll leave it as an exercise as to which one she's referring to when she lists these activities.

kevrone 10y ago

What you say rings true. However, the only thing we really know for sure, and for which there is a mountain of evidence, is that women as a group face significantly greater challenges in this industry than men do. That may filter for various traits in women such as greater levels of grit, but I'm going to wait until this particular survey is corroborated by further study before I buy into the idea that women and men in our industry are significantly differentiated by something like personal drive. I can believe it, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on this evidence alone. Great Medium article by the way.

FT_intern 10y ago

>I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, Males aren't either. The difference in participation is caused by men engaging in nerdy hobbies more than women (trawling BB boards, playing online video games, etc.). Why this happens, no one really knows.

pikachu_is_cool 10y ago

If we're making generalizations here, then women generally don't like hunching over a computer monitor in isolation for 6+ hours every day. Much like how men generally don't like to put on makeup and act in plays.

return0 10y ago

The fact that there are way too many IT people from poor immigrant backgrounds (no opportunities for anything you mention) discredits your first point. > it's GENERALLY because it is something that you very much care about and want to do. Given that there is a higher demand for IT jobs than supply makes this impossible. You just have to be good at it.

mcv 10y ago
Since when are there "way too many" IT people from poor immigrant backgrounds? As far as I can tell, programmers are more likely to be from the educated middle class.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Based on the undertone of the entire comment, I figure there were "way too many" as soon as n >= 1.
- MollyR 10y ago
  Probably referring to asians(including indians). Outside of silicon valley, you see a lot of asian developers whose families came from poor immigrant families.
  - mcv 10y ago
    My experience with Indian programmers is that they tend to come from the Indian middle class. Middle class in India may be poorer than in the US, but they're still well educated.
- dominotw 10y ago
  indian middle class == american poor. More true in 80-90's when the current crop grew up. Also, its kind of funny to be called 'middle class' in the third poorest country in the world.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

bluecalm 10y ago

I remember I made the same argument about women in chess (those already playing competitively should be better on average than men because it's harder to get into chess when you are a woman so only the most talented/driven ones make it). I was called sexist in that discussion though as chess is way more meritocratic than corporate career so the implications are that it's likely biological afterall. >>It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny.

Mz 10y ago
You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny. My ex husband was career army. While in the military, he double majored in CS and history. He was a socially awkward nerd. He rose though the ranks quickly. He once admitted that while excelled at the technical stuff, the fact that he was married to me was a big part of why he was a decent manager once he got promoted to the military equivalent of mid level manager. There have been studies that indicate women think of "morality" different from men -- that their idea of morality is more about caring about people. Perhaps the same traits -- caring about others -- that help make women good mothers also help make them good managers. The paternal role is typically different from the maternal one.
- bluecalm 10y ago
  My point was that: "we strive for diversity" = discimination against men. Your story is interesting but I don't see how it relates to my point. If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions - I am all for that (as I think genders are different and men are naturally better at some things and women are better at other things and fighting this is not a good idea) but if that's the case we should get rid of all diversity planning and "striving to have more women" as that's tipping the odds even more.

jazzyk 10y ago

There are enough camps/programs targeted at young girls, that's not the problem. There is no institutional conspiracy to suppress women, the problem is strictly cultural: NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. They were all interested in environment, film/acting, fashion, literature... This self-selection came predominantly from mass-media/pop-culture, and also, to some extent, from their mothers, none of whom works in tech (we are talking a wealthy suburb in the northeast US here). They never encouraged their daughters to go into tech. The fathers did, but not too convincingly, either.

parennoob 10y ago
> NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. They were all interested in environment, film/acting, fashion, literature (my daughter got interested into life sciences) Popular culture in the US massively lionizes professional sports, and shames younger people who are into programming and other non-social hobbies like nobody's business. In my opinion, if "women in tech" programs put half of their resources into solving these problems, they'd be hugely more successful. Unfortunately, that involves taking on fields other than professional programming (like television, media, and such), which they are either not ready or equipped to do.
clifanatic 10y ago
> NONE of my daughter's female friends in high school thought it was cool to take on any of the math/physics/programming classes. Neither did any of the men. Not when I was in school, and not now. Being nerdy is not cool, whether you're a boy or a girl. In fact, you're more likely to get beaten up for it as a boy than as a girl.
- loco5niner 10y ago
  Ummm.... I did (male). I didn't care if it was nerdy.

clifanatic 10y ago

> It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted, it's just that the women who go into tech are usually already pretty gritty people. Interesting that when men statistically seem to have an advantage in any area, it's a "problem" that "needs to be corrected", but if women start to statistically dominate, it's clearly because "women are just better".

jordigh 10y ago
It's not that they're better. It's that a woman in tech has to work twice as hard to get the same recognition as men. After working twice as hard, you tend to overshoot and end up becoming way better than the men. Mediocre women in tech just aren't allowed, whereas mediocre men are accepted. Try to read the article she linked.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  Citations needed for pretty much every part of your post.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    Again? Read the article that both I and calex suggested you should read.
    - MollyR 10y ago
      As a women in tech. I'd like citations too. Because I'm not clear what article you are referring too,and the ones I've read in this thread and the medium article are exceptionally weak. Poor or even worse bullshit articles and poor citations just make the backlash worse, and even harder to get accepted without having to prove I'm at the least a mythical 2x-5x developer.
      - jordigh 10y ago
        Due to the backfire effect[1], no amount of citation convinces the disbelievers. Those who want to believe find the articles by themselves. Those who don't experience backfire effect. But, here you go, let's try showing you a survey and a study amongst the top Google hits for "women have to work harder for the same recognition" and see what you think: https://news.virginia.edu/content/surveys-british-and-american-employees-conclude-women-must-work-harder https://news.virginia.edu/content/surveys-british-and-americ... http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerman/2013/02/24/superiority-of-female-workers-confirmed-study-finds-women-really-do-work-longer-and-harder-than-men/#6eba623e324c http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerman/2013/02/24/superio... --- [1] http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts-dont-win-arguments http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts...

BDGC 10y ago

I appreciate your comment, and I second your point about the education and social structure being different for girls/women. In my experience, it can be difficult for folks to understand just how different it can be - whether by gender, race, or lower socioeconomic status - which is completely fair. There are always exceptions to generalizations, which makes making progress in these arguments difficult. For those who still believe it's a feminist conspiracy, I encourage you to read this brief report (with links to an excellent full report) with hard numbers on the experience of women in STEM: https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-st... And if you think you're above bias, or that it doesn't exist against women, please challenge yourself with the unconscious bias test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html Stats are available after the test. I am a woman with a PhD in a STEM field, and guess what - I have biases against my own sex.

jdietrich 10y ago
Not to detract from your general point, but there are serious doubts over the validity of the Implicit Association Test: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sjop.12288/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sjop.12288/abstra... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288582440_Toward_a_Meaningful_Metric_of_Implicit_Prejudice_vol_100_pg_1468_2015 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288582440_Toward_a_...
- dsg42 10y ago
  Seriously, why do you need to post this? This is the sort of thing that makes it hard to be a woman in tech. Everyone is constantly nitpicking everything you say.
  - return0 10y ago
    Especially in tech, nitpicking should not be allowed. Approximate is good enough for everyone, it's not like a battery is suddenly gonna catch fire.
  - 10y ago

throwaway921 10y ago

All this focus on women and minorities obscures the issue. White males can have problems fitting in, too. Being born into a low social class is probably more damning to your future than any external quality you might have. We need to accept that being inclusive isn't about focusing on a single group - that's singling people out again - but realize that people are being left out of whatever good thing we have as a society for any number of reasons. Understand this, and just be more accepting of people in general.

abandonliberty 10y ago
Often issues are made into gender/race issues because it drives readership and clicks. It's depressing as we miss the root cause and create more alienation and conflict between people. e.g. "Women don't ask" - a book with concepts on salary negotiation vital to many men I know. That said, historically there was clear gender/race discrimination. There is today in pockets, just as there is reverse discrimination. We just have to stop the discrimination.

abandonliberty 10y ago

We all have different life experiences. There is a low supply of female engineers, but rather than addressing the problem organizations implement various forms of affirmative action. Trying to fix discrimination with more discrimination. My partner is in tech. My organization has a network to support women in their careers which my female coworkers view as outright anti-male discrimination. Unfortunately, the bell curve doesn't support these policies. We have both worked with women who would have not held their position as men. It's quite frustrating, as we now have capable women forging ahead while less competent women are riding the wave of feminism and tarnishing their reputations. I'm curious. Have you not suffered this, or at least heard of it? We can't make progress on this if we all continue to willfully ignore the flaws in our arguments.

return0 10y ago

Excellent observation, and lets not forget it's not valid only in tech. Let's not forget that every boy is encouraged (some would say indoctrinated) from early age to learn the art of cooking, and to spend the evenings preparing dinner (let alone the long-standing sexist attitude - sadly still espoused by many - that men belong in the kitchen). With such an early start it's no wonder that men dominate the field and that only 6 women have managed to earn the prized 3 michelin stars.