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IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies. Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own priorit

by cesare 16y ago

IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies. Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own priorities. But the culture around its products was all about fostering creativity. I used to say to friends: get a Mac if you want an hassle-free computer to make things (music, graphics design and even programming. Does anyone remember HyperCard, which at one point was bundled with every mac?). The argument that the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch is not a computer is really myopic. It's the culture that has changed.

lallysingh 16y ago
Yeah, that's linux now, and only for software dev creativity.
- api 16y ago
  Unfortunately, it is only for software dev creativity. Nobody else can really use Linux. (I say that as a long time Linux user... I would never give Linux to a non-techie.)
  - hoggle 16y ago
    With all due respect but I would encourage you to try exactly this with a recent version of a major distribution like ubuntu. It is so much easier for non technical people to install applications with all those comfortable package management frontends alone. I recently have successfully "deployed" such an environment on an absolute beginner's PC. I would clearly say that everybody who was able to use WinXP is easily able to use a modern major Linux distribution. I have been an enthusiastic osx user for many years now but then again I originally came from BSD world and I am somewhat married to my workflow now. IMHO Linux is a great option - certainly for casual users and programmers.
aristoxenus 16y ago
I agree that it should cause more concern -- but how about more "reflection and rethinking" than "outrage". The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.
- bad_user 16y ago
  > The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway. That's why they have parents.
raganwald 16y ago
Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.
- angumagu 16y ago
  "Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?" I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except to say that I am well within my rights to be outraged at my own employer for many reasons, whether or not I have the opportunity to start my own business. "Love it or leave it" is generally a cheap argument for dismissing folks who are pushing for progressive change in a system.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    > Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Is this statement true or false? > Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business. Does this statement say you are not entitled to be outraged at Apple or at your employer? Or does it merely say that being outraged at Apple when you have alternative target platforms is like being outraged at your employer when you can start your own business? Making money from the web appears to be more difficult that making money from iPhone software. Starting your own business appears to be more difficult than working for yourself. Don't these statements support the simile? I support your choice to push Apple for "progressive change." But just as you may choose to push them to change, I choose to push developers to change. I hope you accept the direct comparison I am drawing.
    - angumagu 16y ago
      Excellent rejoinders. They do support the simile. I think I did jump to reading it as a "love it or leave it" argument, though recognizing you are more on the "come and join us on the outside". But maybe you can see it was easy to ready it as "it's a waste to get riled up about this". Anyway, I'm quite sympathetic to the build-alternative-institutions as opposed to work-within-the-system approach. I rewrote this response a dozen times and then realized I hadn't figured out what really rankles me about this whole conversation (the larger one). I think it's that Apple makes really good stuff, when so often it's the people making marginal or crappy stuff that are making regressive moves like these. So I get torn, because there are real efforts being made on their part to make technology human, to meet people where they are, efforts that have gone further than a lot of others. And I can't see any basic link between the closed approach and that success.
joe_the_user 16y ago
I certainly hope that this will cause more outrage than there's been so far but this action is a completely consistent application of Apple's draconian tools policy and that is a natural result of the walled-garden model. see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html Sorry if it's been seen before...

by cesare 16y ago

lallysingh 16y ago

Yeah, that's linux now, and only for software dev creativity.

api 16y ago
Unfortunately, it is only for software dev creativity. Nobody else can really use Linux. (I say that as a long time Linux user... I would never give Linux to a non-techie.)
- hoggle 16y ago
  With all due respect but I would encourage you to try exactly this with a recent version of a major distribution like ubuntu. It is so much easier for non technical people to install applications with all those comfortable package management frontends alone. I recently have successfully "deployed" such an environment on an absolute beginner's PC. I would clearly say that everybody who was able to use WinXP is easily able to use a modern major Linux distribution. I have been an enthusiastic osx user for many years now but then again I originally came from BSD world and I am somewhat married to my workflow now. IMHO Linux is a great option - certainly for casual users and programmers.

aristoxenus 16y ago

I agree that it should cause more concern -- but how about more "reflection and rethinking" than "outrage". The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.

bad_user 16y ago
> The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway. That's why they have parents.

raganwald 16y ago

Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

angumagu 16y ago
"Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?" I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except to say that I am well within my rights to be outraged at my own employer for many reasons, whether or not I have the opportunity to start my own business. "Love it or leave it" is generally a cheap argument for dismissing folks who are pushing for progressive change in a system.
- raganwald 16y ago
  > Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Is this statement true or false? > Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business. Does this statement say you are not entitled to be outraged at Apple or at your employer? Or does it merely say that being outraged at Apple when you have alternative target platforms is like being outraged at your employer when you can start your own business? Making money from the web appears to be more difficult that making money from iPhone software. Starting your own business appears to be more difficult than working for yourself. Don't these statements support the simile? I support your choice to push Apple for "progressive change." But just as you may choose to push them to change, I choose to push developers to change. I hope you accept the direct comparison I am drawing.
  - angumagu 16y ago
    Excellent rejoinders. They do support the simile. I think I did jump to reading it as a "love it or leave it" argument, though recognizing you are more on the "come and join us on the outside". But maybe you can see it was easy to ready it as "it's a waste to get riled up about this". Anyway, I'm quite sympathetic to the build-alternative-institutions as opposed to work-within-the-system approach. I rewrote this response a dozen times and then realized I hadn't figured out what really rankles me about this whole conversation (the larger one). I think it's that Apple makes really good stuff, when so often it's the people making marginal or crappy stuff that are making regressive moves like these. So I get torn, because there are real efforts being made on their part to make technology human, to meet people where they are, efforts that have gone further than a lot of others. And I can't see any basic link between the closed approach and that success.

joe_the_user 16y ago

I certainly hope that this will cause more outrage than there's been so far but this action is a completely consistent application of Apple's draconian tools policy and that is a natural result of the walled-garden model. see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html Sorry if it's been seen before...