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Every nation has its own foundational myths. God knows the way Americans mythologize their founding fathers to so far beyond the bounds of credibility doesn't b

Every nation has its own foundational myths. God knows the way Americans mythologize their founding fathers to so far beyond the bounds of credibility doesn't bother them.

shuntress 10y ago
Let me first couch this by saying I agree it is dangerous and counter-productive to mythologize history beyond the bounds of credibility, and that it certainly does happen in this context. But what was accomplished by the American 'Founding Fathers' was extraordinary and some of them were truly exceptional people. Not in a Ra-Ra Blind Patriotism way. Just look at the choices they made and the scope and magnitude of the results of their actions.
- pmalynin 10y ago
  Meh. "what was accomplished by the American 'Founding Fathers' was extraordinary" actually what they achieved was a bit of a cop-out, in fact T. Jefferson helped draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which was a much more progressive document in scope and content. That is, so much more could have been accomplished in social, cultural, and political terms. I mean having things like "Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others" and "The society has the right of requesting account from any public agent of its administration" or "Any society in which the guarantee of rights is not assured, nor the separation of powers determined, has no Constitution" directly in the consituion instead of The Three-Fifth Compromise shows what each society finds important and necessary to be enshrined in the Constitution.
  - cfmcdonald 10y ago
    The Constitution actually succeeded as the basis for a stable, lasting government for 80 years. The Declaration of the Rights of Man was an idealistic credo that was never the basis for French government policy and was made a mockery of by the Terror.
  - shuntress 10y ago
    So... you are saying that one of the impressive accomplishments (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen) of one of the American Founding Fathers (T. Jefferson) was... 'Meh.' a cop-out?
  - marcosdumay 10y ago
    Do you know of any other country that got those right in a single step and not interleaved with a set of "let's kill our elite now" moments? The US founding was extraordinary.
geppeltard 10y ago
We at the the BBC must occasionally deviate from our normal 'murica bashing mandate and publish something critical about US rivals. We apologize if this has upset anyone and we thank you for your patience. We now return you to your normal diet of conformal anti-US hate mongering. Thank you.
- dvdcxn 10y ago
  I can't decide whether I loathe Clinton or Trump more - both are despicable. However as a Brit I'm sick of you guys trying to make my mind up for me. Your ability to report on Clinton's shortcomings has been dismal in comparison to Trump. It's clear there is an editorial bias. Please explain to me why Trump's changing-room-gate has been on the main page all week, but there hasn't been any coverage of Clinton's suggestion of assassinating Assange with drones? Both are deplorable, private comments said (at best) in jest.
  - whateveracct 10y ago
    That Clinton thing is still unproven. It's not like it's a fact at the moment.
  - tim333 10y ago
    Changing-room-gate has been notable for his own party freaking out over it and abandoning him. I don't think it would have got nearly so much coverage otherwise.
Jtsummers 10y ago
> God knows the way Americans mythologize their founding fathers to so far beyond the bounds of credibility doesn't bother them. It does bother some of us. In fact, it's one of the things that annoys me most in political discourse with some individuals, especially religious ones. While not religious myself, I at least respect a few key portions of the Christian Bible, namely the portions of the Gospels demonstrating and advocating for true compassion and mercy for others, and the detachment of self from worldly possessions. Which is almost exactly counter the Religious Right's views in the US. Those who have nearly deified, certainly sanctified or beatified, the Founding Fathers and authors of the Constitution, along with their apparent view of the Constitution as a sacred text, despite its obvious flaws and amendments over the centuries. And who view wealth as the measure of a man, while simultaneously claiming to be devout Christians. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and "No Man can serve two masters" are passages which, I'm very nearly convinced, few US Christians have read or consider important.
- davidivadavid 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and_wealth#Wealth_as_an_outcome_of_faith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and...
georgeecollins 10y ago
You could get a completely misleading idea of the US in WWII from countless movies, even one as recent as Pearl Harbor, when people ought to have enough perspective to know better. The idea is people who point out a movie like Pearl Harbor is inaccurate aren't attacked in the US.
- a2tech 10y ago
  The difference is you can't be jailed in the US (or fined) for pointing out factual errors in the movie.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    I very much doubt that this article is 100% accurate on the reason for the fine. The Russian government doesn't defend Communism and the USSR in any shape or form. What triggers them is any suggestion that the Nazis were good and suggesting the surrender of St Petersburg to the Nazis would have been great definitely falls into that category for the majority of Russians. On top of that St Petersburg really has a problem with violent Neo Nazis groups, or at least had - don't know how it's today. I'm actually pro freedom of speech to a degree that most people in Europe are not (I would allow them have their stupid demonstrations) but the truth is that in most countries some ideologies are forbidden. Nazism is forbidden in most parts of Europe or how about showing public support for ISIS. I'm 100% sure it is forbidden everywhere in Europe (maybe with UK being the only exception).
    - kafkaesq 10y ago
      The Russian government doesn't defend Communism and the USSR in any shape or form. Well, it's not like anyone's trying to get the USSR officially reconstituted. But there does seem to be a very deep undercurrent of respect about what the USSR stood for (as a form a "Greater Russia", in effect), independent of the CPSU's hegemony over it. As exemplified by, for example, Putin's famous statement about its collapse being "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century". And the widespread contempt for Gorbachev for having presided over it (or at least for having caved into under far too generous terms for Russia's geopolitical adversaries).
optimuspaul 10y ago
Let's not overgeneralize, many Americans are bothered by this and have gone to great lengths to correct the record with the truth. For example, Columbus day was yesterday, but where I live the day has been renamed Indigenous Peoples Day. We have taken Columbus off the pedestal and recognize the world for what it really is and not the myths we were taught in school.
- ap3 10y ago
  Did Columbus not exist?
  - tim333 10y ago
    He did some bad stuff. Slaves, killing people etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Columbus_celebrations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Col...
    - groovy2shoes 10y ago
      The indigenous peoples did that stuff, too… ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Among_indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Among_indig...
optforfon 10y ago
I think this is only true when you look at political speech (where the sacred phrase "founding fathers" can justify most things) But ultimately at this point the US is culturally on a completely different level compared to backward nationalist countries like Russia. Maybe you're not familiar with American education, but a good portion of what we learn at a young age is actually national self criticism. In my personal experience I'd estimate almost half of my history education up to high school was on - the terrible things we did to the Native Americas - the terrible things we did to Slaves - the terrible way we oppressed African Americans Even when we learn about the founding fathers, time is always take out to point out the hypocrisies that happened at the time. I think the fact that a bunch of intelligent men were able to found a national structure that has lasted this long and has managed to regulate itself away from tyranny is truly magical and a great historical achievement. The more I learn about it, the more improbably it all seems - there were so many chances for it to go wrong. What are they on in France, their fifth republic? Or is it their 6th?
triplesec 10y ago
Yet don't forget that the deliberate, Orwellian rewriting of history is much much worse, and that's what the USSR, sorry, Russia is still doing, by imprisoning people for speaking the truth. That doesn't happen (yet... until Trump) in the USA or western democracies.

Every nation has its own foundational myths. God knows the way Americans mythologize their founding fathers to so far beyond the bounds of credibility doesn't bother them.

shuntress 10y ago

Let me first couch this by saying I agree it is dangerous and counter-productive to mythologize history beyond the bounds of credibility, and that it certainly does happen in this context. But what was accomplished by the American 'Founding Fathers' was extraordinary and some of them were truly exceptional people. Not in a Ra-Ra Blind Patriotism way. Just look at the choices they made and the scope and magnitude of the results of their actions.

pmalynin 10y ago
Meh. "what was accomplished by the American 'Founding Fathers' was extraordinary" actually what they achieved was a bit of a cop-out, in fact T. Jefferson helped draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which was a much more progressive document in scope and content. That is, so much more could have been accomplished in social, cultural, and political terms. I mean having things like "Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others" and "The society has the right of requesting account from any public agent of its administration" or "Any society in which the guarantee of rights is not assured, nor the separation of powers determined, has no Constitution" directly in the consituion instead of The Three-Fifth Compromise shows what each society finds important and necessary to be enshrined in the Constitution.
- cfmcdonald 10y ago
  The Constitution actually succeeded as the basis for a stable, lasting government for 80 years. The Declaration of the Rights of Man was an idealistic credo that was never the basis for French government policy and was made a mockery of by the Terror.
- shuntress 10y ago
  So... you are saying that one of the impressive accomplishments (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen) of one of the American Founding Fathers (T. Jefferson) was... 'Meh.' a cop-out?
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  Do you know of any other country that got those right in a single step and not interleaved with a set of "let's kill our elite now" moments? The US founding was extraordinary.

geppeltard 10y ago

We at the the BBC must occasionally deviate from our normal 'murica bashing mandate and publish something critical about US rivals. We apologize if this has upset anyone and we thank you for your patience. We now return you to your normal diet of conformal anti-US hate mongering. Thank you.

dvdcxn 10y ago
I can't decide whether I loathe Clinton or Trump more - both are despicable. However as a Brit I'm sick of you guys trying to make my mind up for me. Your ability to report on Clinton's shortcomings has been dismal in comparison to Trump. It's clear there is an editorial bias. Please explain to me why Trump's changing-room-gate has been on the main page all week, but there hasn't been any coverage of Clinton's suggestion of assassinating Assange with drones? Both are deplorable, private comments said (at best) in jest.
- whateveracct 10y ago
  That Clinton thing is still unproven. It's not like it's a fact at the moment.
- tim333 10y ago
  Changing-room-gate has been notable for his own party freaking out over it and abandoning him. I don't think it would have got nearly so much coverage otherwise.

Jtsummers 10y ago

> God knows the way Americans mythologize their founding fathers to so far beyond the bounds of credibility doesn't bother them. It does bother some of us. In fact, it's one of the things that annoys me most in political discourse with some individuals, especially religious ones. While not religious myself, I at least respect a few key portions of the Christian Bible, namely the portions of the Gospels demonstrating and advocating for true compassion and mercy for others, and the detachment of self from worldly possessions. Which is almost exactly counter the Religious Right's views in the US. Those who have nearly deified, certainly sanctified or beatified, the Founding Fathers and authors of the Constitution, along with their apparent view of the Constitution as a sacred text, despite its obvious flaws and amendments over the centuries. And who view wealth as the measure of a man, while simultaneously claiming to be devout Christians. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and "No Man can serve two masters" are passages which, I'm very nearly convinced, few US Christians have read or consider important.

davidivadavid 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and_wealth#Wealth_as_an_outcome_of_faith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_poverty_and...

georgeecollins 10y ago

You could get a completely misleading idea of the US in WWII from countless movies, even one as recent as Pearl Harbor, when people ought to have enough perspective to know better. The idea is people who point out a movie like Pearl Harbor is inaccurate aren't attacked in the US.

a2tech 10y ago
The difference is you can't be jailed in the US (or fined) for pointing out factual errors in the movie.
- DominikR 10y ago
  I very much doubt that this article is 100% accurate on the reason for the fine. The Russian government doesn't defend Communism and the USSR in any shape or form. What triggers them is any suggestion that the Nazis were good and suggesting the surrender of St Petersburg to the Nazis would have been great definitely falls into that category for the majority of Russians. On top of that St Petersburg really has a problem with violent Neo Nazis groups, or at least had - don't know how it's today. I'm actually pro freedom of speech to a degree that most people in Europe are not (I would allow them have their stupid demonstrations) but the truth is that in most countries some ideologies are forbidden. Nazism is forbidden in most parts of Europe or how about showing public support for ISIS. I'm 100% sure it is forbidden everywhere in Europe (maybe with UK being the only exception).
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    The Russian government doesn't defend Communism and the USSR in any shape or form. Well, it's not like anyone's trying to get the USSR officially reconstituted. But there does seem to be a very deep undercurrent of respect about what the USSR stood for (as a form a "Greater Russia", in effect), independent of the CPSU's hegemony over it. As exemplified by, for example, Putin's famous statement about its collapse being "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century". And the widespread contempt for Gorbachev for having presided over it (or at least for having caved into under far too generous terms for Russia's geopolitical adversaries).

optimuspaul 10y ago

Let's not overgeneralize, many Americans are bothered by this and have gone to great lengths to correct the record with the truth. For example, Columbus day was yesterday, but where I live the day has been renamed Indigenous Peoples Day. We have taken Columbus off the pedestal and recognize the world for what it really is and not the myths we were taught in school.

ap3 10y ago
Did Columbus not exist?
- tim333 10y ago
  He did some bad stuff. Slaves, killing people etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Columbus_celebrations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Col...
  - groovy2shoes 10y ago
    The indigenous peoples did that stuff, too… ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Among_indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Among_indig...

optforfon 10y ago

I think this is only true when you look at political speech (where the sacred phrase "founding fathers" can justify most things) But ultimately at this point the US is culturally on a completely different level compared to backward nationalist countries like Russia. Maybe you're not familiar with American education, but a good portion of what we learn at a young age is actually national self criticism. In my personal experience I'd estimate almost half of my history education up to high school was on - the terrible things we did to the Native Americas - the terrible things we did to Slaves - the terrible way we oppressed African Americans Even when we learn about the founding fathers, time is always take out to point out the hypocrisies that happened at the time. I think the fact that a bunch of intelligent men were able to found a national structure that has lasted this long and has managed to regulate itself away from tyranny is truly magical and a great historical achievement. The more I learn about it, the more improbably it all seems - there were so many chances for it to go wrong. What are they on in France, their fifth republic? Or is it their 6th?

triplesec 10y ago

Yet don't forget that the deliberate, Orwellian rewriting of history is much much worse, and that's what the USSR, sorry, Russia is still doing, by imprisoning people for speaking the truth. That doesn't happen (yet... until Trump) in the USA or western democracies.