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I find it very disconcerting that people are trying to fend off criticism of previously published studies by calling it "bullying" or sometimes worse. What do f
by alanfalcon 10y ago
I find it very disconcerting that people are trying to fend off criticism of previously published studies by calling it "bullying" or sometimes worse. What do feelings have to do with science?
- mratzloff 10y agoRight. If you can't handle critique (or embarrassment from invalidated conclusions), don't publish. Write in your diary instead.
- nkrisc 10y agoExactly. This isn't even subjective critique, it's math. Your math is right or it's wrong. Lastly from what I can tell there isn't even any value judgement attached, simply a notification of incorrect math.
- hoopism 10y agoThis was my thought exactly. The most disturbing aspect to this whole deal is the response of the administrators who I assume represent a good deal of the community. The researches who contributed this project ought to be thanked and rewarded for their participation... not called terrorists.
- merpnderp 10y agoObjectivity is listed as a problem with science curriculum. Welcome to the future. http://nsuworks.nova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2467&context=tqr http://nsuworks.nova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2467&co...
- Practicality 10y agoWhile I am not a big fan of contemporary feminism, I am pretty sure taking issue with masculinity or "gendered" text is not the same thing as taking issue with objectivity. Edit: Found this quote in your source "Poststructuralism “rejects objectivity and the notions of an absolute truth and single reality,”" Hmm, this seems an awful lot like a religion.
- hx87 10y agoIt's pretty trivial to take the Ibn Warraq approach, though: just reject poststructuralism itself.
- zeveb 10y ago> I am pretty sure taking issue with masculinity or "gendered" text is not the same thing as taking issue with objectivity. Well, since English is a gendered language, taking issue with 'gendered' text is taking issue with the objective reality that … English is a gendered language.
- alphonsegaston 10y agoAside from things like pronouns, English hasn't been gendered since the 14th century: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_English
- zeveb 10y ago'Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?' Pronouns are precisely what folks who complain about gender in English are complaining about (well, that and words like 'mankind').
- alphonsegaston 10y agoGlibness aside, the usage of gendered pronouns does not make a language gendered. That's only true if there has to be agreement between the gender of a noun and words relating to the noun. And it's also not what people are arguing. Instead, they argue that gendered terms are the product of cultural norms and prescriptive grammar that reinforce gender roles that are oppressive to both men and women. That some view these assignments as objective when that's untrue linguistically and historically, I think only lends credence to their point.
- jfoutz 10y agoI'm not in any sense an expert. A lot of it seems to boil down to what assumptions are implicit. When you consider something like math, you can pin down what axioms have what consequences. This set of rules produces a group, adding some more axioms produces a field, things like that. When you get to more ordinary stuff like living life, it's not clear what axioms you picked, vs what axioms i picked. Most people don't think about it at all. Imagine a coworker that just started showing up topless. That would be freakishly weird. But really, in a professional setting, why would it matter? There are some handwavy arguments about the nature of professionalism, but all of that relies on what axioms you pick for your culture. Anyway. We all have these ideas about how we're supposed to interact, but we're all playing by different rules. So you get into these Wittgenstein kinds of discussions.
- nkrisc 10y agoThis appears to be about STEM education, not STEM fields directly.
- merpnderp 10y agoSo STEM curriculum should teach there are no objective truths? 1 + 1 is not always 2? Failure to reproduce a study could just be the result of different cultural, gender, or racial differences in the researchers and does not necessarily invalidate anything?
- nkrisc 10y agoI won't go so far as to agree there are no objective truths but your second point certainly sounds plausible. Researcher bias is a well known issue.
- Jun8 10y agoRelevant part of the report: "As these examples show, the STEM syllabi explored in this study demonstrated a view of knowledge that was to be acquired by the student, which promotes a view of knowledge as unchanging. This is further reinforced by the use of adverbs to imply certainty such as “actually” and “in fact” which are used in syllabi to identify information as factual and beyond dispute (Biber, 2006a; 2006b). For example, “draw accurate conclusions from scientific data presented in different formats” (Lower level math). Instead of promoting the idea that knowledge is constructed by the student and dynamic, subject to change as it would in a more feminist view of knowledge, the syllabi reinforce the larger male-dominant view of knowledge as one that students acquire and use make the correct decision."
- Practicality 10y agoThe equating of objective facts with "male-dominant views" is just bizarre. I mean, seriously, they are saying that in the feminist view is that there is no objective reality? I suppose they are saying that feminists... don't live in... reality. You can't make this stuff up. At least they're up front about it, I suppose.
- danharaj 10y agoA fact is a human construct. It is a symbol. You just conflated facts with reality. A cursory examination of reality will reveal that observations of reality are observer dependent. So what is an objective fact? An objective fact must be one that is covariant in change of observer interpreting the fact. Physical laws like General Relativity are covariant in this way: the facts of relativity differ symbolically depending on the reference frame of the observer but different observers' facts are related in a coherent way. In GR an observer is a reference frame. In order to define objective fact you need to presuppose what an observer is. It is a masculine behavior to consider this question unimportant. A feminine science is much more interested in the study of the subjective because you can't be objective without understanding subjectivity. Ultimately an observer in science is a human. That means objective fact can only be understood by understanding the subjectivity of the scientist. An objective fact is in fact an intersubjective fact, and intersubjectivity is an essential contribution to science by feminism. It's a good keyword to google.
- mentat 10y agoBased on my experience with feminist though in academia, objectivity as a mask for bias is the issue. The preferred method to address is to surface as much of the implicit bias a possible so the whole can be considered. I don't find this problematic.
- int_19h 10y agoThe problem is when "as much as possible" becomes subjective personal experiences. Basically treating un-aggregated anecdotes as data, while also drawing a line at questioning the validity or applicability of it (aka "just shut up and listen").
- Practicality 10y agoBias is a big problem, but why not call out the problem directly instead of confusing the issue with a tangential, philosophical discussion about whether or not objectivity exists?
- WillAbides 10y ago> What do feelings have to do with science? When the science in question is psychology, feelings have everything to do with it.
- lucb1e 10y agoStudying feelings does not make feelings a part of studying.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dahart 10y agoWhen I read that sentence, I immediately thought it sounded like some people were being childish and defensive. OTOH, a bunch of people got unsolicited error reports for already published papers, and I can understand being initially irritated. This was, by the admission of the statcheck authors, a way to get attention quickly. My guess is it'll all settle down and people won't complain about bullying once everyone just uses statcheck like they do spell-check. To answer your question though, I think feelings have everything to do with science. There are many reasons different people do science, and they all stem from emotions. Some people do science out of curiosity, to solve mysteries. Some do science as a means to an end, to gain knowledge required to further some other goal. Some do science to gain social standing & intellectual superiority. Some do science to help others understand how the world works. In all cases, the reasons people are doing science is because of a want, some kind of desire to achieve a goal. Nature and physics will continue to exist whether we explore it or not, we do so because we care, and caring is a feeling.
- icantdrive55 10y agoAnd there's people/corporations/institutions who do science to further their agenda. This is a huge part of science. I wish it wasn't. I welcome any program that looks for errors. Now let's expose the bad studies, or bad science? I welcome any program that makes this job easier. I wish I wasen't so cynical towards science. I have just been duped too many times.
- Mithaldu 10y ago> unsolicited error reports for already published papers, and I can understand being initially irritated Please don't see this as me attacking you, i am genuinely baffled by what you said and would like to understand your thinking. How exactly could you possibly have any sort of understanding for that? How would you feel about a software author being irritated by unsolicited error reports? If that irritation is less acceptable than the one in your quote, where would lie the difference?
- dahart 10y ago> How exactly could you possibly have any sort of understanding for that? I'm also confused by your question, so I can relate to you. :) Despite your warning, the way you phrased that question does sound like an attack, it implies that you know my experience does not allow me to speak on this subject, which you do not know. Why is it hard to think that I can empathize? What do you think you know about me that makes it implausible for me to understand this situation? I can and do relate to it because I'm a published paper author. I imagine that it would be irritating to me as easily as I imagine it would be irritating to others. For me personally, I don't think it would make me angry, but it would give me anxiety to cast doubt on a paper I'd already published, even if the report about inaccuracies are true. It would mean that I didn't do as good a job as I thought, which of course I want to know, but a published paper is part of a record that cannot change. I'm sure many paper authors, for better or worse, have the same reaction, that something that casts doubt on their publications after the fact would cause some degree of mental anguish. That doesn't mean we shouldn't search for the truth, it means only what I said, that I can understand the reaction. Your analogy to software errors fails. (And I also have first-hand experience with this as the owner of a software business.) Software is an on-going work that can and should be improved to remove errors at all times, and errors that get fixed do not affect my personal reputation or career. Reports of software errors can also be irritating in their own way - I don't want to know my software is buggy - but they are always welcome. Published papers cannot be improved, they are fixed in the permanent record. There are some ways to recover from severe errors, but there are no ways to recover from minor errors, and public (academic) perception of the quality and level of the errors in a paper can change the way an author is viewed.
- hx87 10y agoEven if feelings have everything to do with science, isn't getting errors in your paper pointed out a good thing that you should be happy about?
- douche 10y agoI guess I can accuse my compiler of bullying me.
- virgulino 10y agoI've been saying that for years!!!
- mturmon 10y agoBully it back with: $ cc test.c || sudo rm -f $(which cc) "Listen, cc, we can do this the easy way, or the hard way..."
- marcosdumay 10y agoJust make sure you don't make a mistake on that command. You don't want to get into MAD with the shell.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- trjordan 10y agoThey weren't looking for errors in papers and trying to push for corrections or improve the science. They were using these errors as fodder for promoting their software. It might not be bullying, but it's not coming from a place of objectivity or honest debate.
- Consultant32452 10y agoYeah, this is an abusive marketing technique. If you don't want future embarrassment you'd better buy our service.
- oldmanjay 10y agoOr just be more vigilant and less defensive, both of which improve the practice of science
- Consultant32452 10y agoThat's just not how polite human interaction works. If you become aware that someone has made a mistake you inform them privately to give them an opportunity to rectify that mistake. In the case of a scientific journal entry you might instead publish a response article. You don't put everyone on blast and practically blackmail them into purchasing your for-profit service. It was never about the science at all, it was about the profits for this product/service.
- cafebeen 10y agoWell, scientists are people too, so they have feelings and are not perfect. I think there are polite ways provide criticism and corrections, hopefully without humiliating people with good intentions. If it's a simple mistake, they can email the author and suggest an erratum. If it's more serious, then it's common to write a response in the journal. I think more public forms of criticism are perceived as bullying because a general audience can't typically judge the magnitude of the error, since they're not scientists working in the field, so it can be unjustly damaging to someone's reputation.
- wyager 10y agoIf someone objectively screwed up a published study, there's no room for feelings or social consideration. People might be wasting their precious time and money pursuing impossible goals based on the incorrect study. Let's say someone finds a mistake in a math paper. Do they politely ask the author to fix it? What happens if the author ignores them? The scientific community doesn't have time to coddle and pursue every mistaken author. Everyone makes mistakes, and the scientific community knows that, but those mistakes need to be brought into then open, not (maybe) resolved behind closed doors.
- cortesoft 10y agoI think there is some nuance here; not all screw ups are equal, nor are all ways of correcting mistakes equal.
- cafebeen 10y agoIt's not coddling as much as professional courtesy. Mistakes are often brought up at conferences and in peer review, but most scientists within a specific research area try to be on good terms with one another and don't see value in publicly shaming colleagues for their mistakes.
- wyager 10y agoThere are two options here: Use a bot to find tons of mistakes automatically and risk coming across as rude. Or Let social trivialities dominate scientific discourse and let most of those mistakes go unchecked forever because there's no feasible way to "politely" address hundreds of authors who made mistakes and keep checking back to make sure they actually fixed the mistake. The former is clearly the preferable choice. Some individual scientists will suffer for it, but the scientific community as a whole will benefit greatly.