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There's no easy way to say this
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- sulam 10y agoAt the risk of repeating a comment I made further down in a thread, the average QA Engineer salary in Mexico is literally 10X more than one of these devs was making. Anyone trying to justify this in terms of the Mexican minimum wage is trying to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.
- Zyst 10y agoAye, copy pasting a comment I posted below: I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a big success.
- lazaroclapp 10y agoI am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP (given how big of a success the game ended up being). As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. But yeah, I don't see many people enticed to work for that amount for a for-profit company they don't have significant ownership of. The point is not on whether or not it is advisable to resign in those conditions (of course it is), but on whether it is viable to sue (I doubt it is). And... many people in Mexico do make minimum wage (around 13% of the country does), but usually not anyone in a specialized profession in a city.
- eropple 10y ago> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. "This is so shitty that the nicest thing that can be said is it's not actually illegal" doesn't merit the exculpatory nature of this sentence. And the sentiment behind it isn't really worth much in the first place.
- MawNicker 10y ago"The sentiment behind it" is yours.
- lazaroclapp 10y agoI did never meant to say that made it a good/reasonable thing (although, if we are going down that path, why is it right to pay someone $200 a month to clean toilets and not to write code? If anything, it is a shittier thing - pun intended - to offer that deal to people who don't have the means and options to refuse or get other jobs... but I suspect we would both end up agreeing that the Mexican minimum wage should be higher). My point is that there is likely no legal recourse here, which is an important detail.
- drdeca 10y agoHow does that compare to the similar argument when people bring up free speech (and a person responds that if the best defense is that the government can't make it illegal, etc.)
- eropple 10y agoThat's pretty much exactly my argument in those cases, too. The government not finding a piece of speech so objectionable as to be criminal is a far cry from a positive moral defense of its existence.
- ido 10y agoIirc people ran with that figure...but it was actually given by just one of the employees, who was a 16 year old they got to do "community support". We dont know how much the coders were making.
- whack 10y agoI'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?
- CydeWeys 10y agoBecause things change over time? There's a big difference between accepting a job at a low salary, and then staying on after awhile at that low salary with no raises, when you realize just how hard the working conditions are, and that you aren't saving any money while your friends are making steps in their financial lives and careers. This is basic at-will employment; you're free to decide you on longer want to do it at any point. I don't understand why you think that just because they initially accepted it, they should be OK with it indefinitely.
- whack 10y agoI never said they should be OK with it indefinitely. If I was in their shoes, I would have just quit immediately. But I wouldn't accuse my employer of bad behavior either. Many of the other comments seem to be accusing the employer of acting in bad faith, or of immoral behavior. If the employees knew exactly what they were getting into, these accusations seem baseless.
- CydeWeys 10y agoIt sounds like Squad was taking advantage of employees by forcing them to work very long hours. That's definitely bad behavior. Maybe you or I would quit immediately, but a lot of people don't. They still have a right to complain about it when they finally do get around to quitting. I just don't understand why you are going after the employees. What point does it serve? We know that burnout, being overworked, and being taken advantage of is a huge problem in this industry, so why go after the victims?
- eric_cc 10y agoThe guy you're replying to isn't going after anybody. You seem like you're just looking for a fight to make some point.
- ralonso 10y ago>I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. Sorry, but have you really met actual working class people that work in "maquilas"? It is not uncommon to see people earning around 600 MXN pesos a week which is barely enough to count as minimum wage.
- coldtea 10y ago>I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. Hmm, there are dead poor people in Mexico and even the US, including people that make less than minimum wage (from part time gigs they can manage to find, etc).
- adventured 10y ago"One in seven Mexican workers earn the average minimum wage of 65.58 pesos ($5.10) a day or less, national statistics office INEGI says." Also worth noting that at least half of Mexico's population lives below their own poverty line. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-economy-analysis-idUSKBN0ED20H20140602 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-economy-analysis-id...
- quickly 10y agoI don't know the backstory. Where were these guys based out of? How could Mexican wages be 10x higher than theirs?
- dandelany 10y agoMexico City.
- realworldview 10y agoArizona sea-view condo? Sign me up!
- JoeDaDude 10y agoWill have any impact on the educational version of KSP[1]? [1] http://kerbaledu.com/ http://kerbaledu.com/
- Paul_S 10y agoAh, it's a pretty awesome game - the right amount of complexity and fun. If it was open source it could continue forever like OpenTTD. Then maybe career mode could be completed. Honestly, this is one of the very few games I've enjoyed in the last 10 years.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoPeople are continuing it. That's just some of the devs. Not all of them.
- lucb1e 10y agoOpenTTD is a re-implementation of TTD, though. OpenKSP would be the equivalent (which doesn't exist). Quake 3 Arena is a better example, which has open source code but proprietary graphics. OpenArena is the open variant. Or HoverRace, where the developer released the source code but extremely late. The game was abandoned around 2000, community dead by 2004ish, and code released a few years after that. Too late to really save it, but it was still nice to play now and then.
- welterde 10y agoWarzone2100 would be a proper example of an commercial game having a open source afterlife (including being ported to linux/mac and continued development to this very day).
- ghostDancer 10y agoFreespace 2 SCP/FSO, they have made mods, add better graphics and have a nice community going strong. http://scp.indiegames.us/ http://scp.indiegames.us/ http://www.hard-light.net/ http://www.hard-light.net/
- TeMPOraL 10y agoI'm pretty sure KSP will continue. The modding community is strong, and has already created several addons that are more advanced than anything the original devs ever wrote.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoFirst the lead, now half the team. What is it with people jumping ship on KSP?
- duiker101 10y agoI have 0 context and background info, i'm not even into the game, but maybe it's just people moving on. I can see they have created a truly amazing game and now they are looking for new venues, new challenges. Considering the success they had I wouldn't be surprised most of those people are also getting some sweet offers.
- rch 10y agoNope - read up. The (unverified) claim is exploitation by the game studio.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoGiven what I know about Squad, that seems unlikely. Well, unlikely beyond ordinary levels, anyways. This is video games.
- mxvzr 10y agoMore claims: https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/in_regards_to_pdtvs_post_damion_rayne_former_ksp/d2t7hdm https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/...
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoThat's not a good thing, but that's actually quite common in the games industry. It's bad, and the industry is apparently trying to kill it, but for now comes part and parcel with the job, in most places.
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoAh, no. I missed some stuff. Yeah, that's a but worse than usual.
- dtparr 10y agoCan someone give me a little background here? What exactly is 'Squad'? Is this just some of the devs leaving? A particular subgroup? They're true KSP devs and not mod devs?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- flamesnare 10y agoSquad is the company behind KSP. You can find more info on them on Wikipedia
- weaksauce 10y agoSquad is the company that made the game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_(company)
- speeder 10y agoSquad own KSP ip. The original author quit several months ago. Squad is a marketing company, and let him start KSP as a counteroffer when he wanted to quit.
- rocqua 10y agoI don't see why squad didn't sell KSP before it came out of beta. They are probably not going to give it the attention it needs, leading to bad publicity. Meanwhile, I'd venture game companies'd be willing to pay a pretty nice sum for it.
- TeMPOraL 10y agoGood they didn't, I'm pretty sure anyone willing to buy a franchise would just milk out every penny they could out of it and let it rot. KSP progressed pretty nicely out of beta and through several updates. That said, it's pretty sad to see development stops. At least they AFAIR sorted out the modding API issues, ensuring a stable platform for the community to work on. Honestly, that's what makes me believe KSP will be still improving in the coming years - the modding community is strong and have already pulled off incredible feats of programming and science (this game attracts a really specific crowd).
- empath75 10y agoBackground: http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-space-program-studio-for-high-crunch-and-low-pay/0220059 http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-s...
- jessaustin 10y agoWow it's kind of amazing that USA-based coders signed up for a $2400 annual salary!
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- asimuvPR 10y ago$2400 a year? What US dev works for that in this market? You are better off at burger king.
- nine_k 10y agoThis is $200 a month; unless you work part-time, it's likely illegal.
- duaneb 10y agoThis is only as an employee. You're free to contract your own rate at whatever you'd like (including for free); while "salary" implies a full employment that doesn't look like the case here. EDIT: none of what I said applies; this was in Mexico.
- nine_k 10y agoWhile I may agree with some criticisms of minimum wages, there are jurisdictions that mandate a minimum hourly rate. Most of the US states are such jurisdictions.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Waterluvian 10y agoBeing able to end development is really important. You don't want it to just putter out.
- jewbacca 10y agoInteresting. I didn't realize, before trying to figure out what this means for KSP just now, that Squad is not first and foremost a game developer: they're basically a marketing company, for which KSP was originally a 20%-style project. I hope this development is not so much a product of internal company bullshit, but now I'm very worried it is. KSP is one of the most genuinely important games out there right now. I would be surprised if many less than 100% of the next generation of spacetravel-involved scientists and engineers counted KSP as part of their journey.
- Animats 10y agoThe devs should apply to the PR side of NASA or Space-X.
- lucb1e 10y agoSpaceX The Game. I suppose that could get a hype going (given a better name).
- DennisP 10y agoEspecially given that Musk is a fan of the game.
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoSpaceX should hire these guys and make a modern successor to KSP, with a lot more money and technology behind it.
- catscratch 10y agoI'm really curious what's going to happen to the guy that got > 1k votes for saying they should shoot him a message, since he's just a webdev contractor that's been working at NASA for about a year. IMO, NASA should hire those guys anyway. It'd be a good move.
- erikb 10y agoI spent less than 5 hours playing this game. But I think it is very, very important for gaming, for space travel simulation, flight simulation, and space exploration. Would buy it again and feel sad that development stops.
- geuis 10y agoI think I'm at around 785 total hours at this point. One of the few games I play much.
- TeMPOraL 10y agoPlay few hours more, and before you know it, you'll clock a thousand hours. As a somewhat veteran player at this point, I confirm that this game is very important for space industry. It strikes the perfect balance between fun and science - making it easy to just eyeball your Mün missions and blow stuff up, while at the same time strongly encouraging learning real physics in order to figure out just what the fuck you're doing and how to hit your destination using less fuel.
- phil248 10y agoAs a casual fan of KSP, I'm not up to date on all the haps. Can someone tell me what to expect in the future? Will there be more development work done?
- reddytowns 10y agoApparently, yes. http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/ http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/
- hoodoof 10y agoI would have thought some wealthy game company would want to buy the company behind a game this popular.
- save4chan 10y agohttps://www.save4chan.org/ https://www.save4chan.org/
- JoeDaDude 10y agoSad and unfortunate, but I expect KSP has left an influential mark on space related games for years to come. For example, see the orbital mechanics segment of Children of a Dead Earth [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIh4Xw2bnQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIh4Xw2bnQ
- whybroke 10y agoSo the main team that made KSP is now all available on the job market? Who dose not immediately hire that team en masse has missed a huge opportunity.
- ceejayoz 10y agoMy understanding is that KSP is a bit like Minecraft - the value was never in the technical competence of the code. I don't know that you can just throw either team at a new product and be guaranteed a success.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- SilasX 10y agoCould you make the title more informative? And can someone give the background on Kerbal and why this is significant?
- ljk 10y agohttp://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-space-program-studio-for-high-crunch-and-low-pay/0220059 http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-s...
- orbitingpluto 10y agoFor those that have purchased it on Steam, I'd archive your current version. Have a feeling the quality is going to go downhill from here. Wow, just wow. The company must be run by absolute sociopaths.
- brokentone 10y agoCan we change the headline to something less clickbaity? "Kerbal Space Program: There's no easy way to say this" etc...
- jewbacca 10y agoGood news! A moderator edited the title to drop the "Kerbal Space Program:" Now it's _just_ "There's no easy way to say this" Request granted, eh?
- jcrites 10y agoDang and other HN staff have said before that they like making readers have to work a bit for the information, and not just be spoonfed in the headlines. I understand it to be about fostering curiosity and wonder. I assume it's also about discouraging people from dismissing an article based on headline alone. ("Kerbal Space Program? I don't know what that is and don't care about it"). Really great HN articles are often an unexpected discovery on a topic I didn't expect to be as interesting as it was. Dan could probably explain better than I. I don't have any information about whether this title was changed or why, but the current title strikes me as lining up with that approach. See also "I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm. I have no last words."
- boomlinde 10y ago> I understand it to be about fostering curiosity and wonder. I assume it's also about discouraging people from dismissing an article based on headline alone. Quite an euphemistic way to say "clickbait", isn't it?
- imron 10y agoThe problem in this case is the link went to reddit.com. I first thought this was some announcement reddit was making. I don't mind working for the information, but I don't like misleading information.
- dang 10y ago
- jcrites 10y agoKerbal Space Program is a really fantastic game that rekindled my love of flight (and space) simulation. For those who don't know about it, it's a spaceflight simulation game. You design a spacecraft from parts, assembling rocket engines, fuel tanks, thrusters, command modules, etc. into a design, and then test it and try to get it into orbit; or from there, to other planetary bodies. Multiple spacecraft if you want: you can dock and coordinate them, or build space stations or moon bases. It's got an incredible amount of detail, modeling a whole solar system with various planets and moons and asteroids. Remember how the staff working on "No Man's Sky" made claims about how "all other video games are fake, they have a skybox, the planets and sun in our sky are real real and you can fly to them" (claims which turned out to be largely false)? Well, Kerbal Space Program actually delivers on that experience. You can rocket into space, dock in orbit with something you've put up there previously, gravity-slingshot yourself to another planet, parachute a lander down to the surface and roam around, etc. The game has realistic space flight physics and orbital mechanics (though tuned to be very generous to players compared to real life). You can learn a lot about the basic mechanics of spaceflight just by playing it; you begin to intuitively understand delta-v, apoapsis and when to apply thrust, etc. If you want to dock with with something then you need to plan an appropriate launch window. Maneuvering in orbit is very interesting and initially counter-intuitive (if a spacecraft is "ahead" of you in orbit, in which direction should you boost to "catch up" to it? If you boost directly toward it, you'll increase your orbital speed and thus the shape of your orbit, taking you away from it in a different dimension!). Getting to other astral bodies is tricky and requires more planning. KSP manages to make all of this challenging but fun. If you'd like to learn more about it, or are even just curious what the fuss is about (the game itself, not the drama), I'd direct you to videos by Scott Manley [1]. Here's a video of a fairly sophisticated mission starting with liftoff from the launch pad, made by another YouTuber [2] (skip to 13:00 to see him planning orbital maneuvers like circularizing his orbit). Manley's "Interstellar Quest" mission has even more complex orbital planning (5:00) [3]. The depth of KSP is astonishing and there's not much else out there like it. It's in the same ballpark as Minecraft in terms of the amazing creative sandbox it provides, with a world that has a ton of depth to explore. There's a wonderful atmospheric feel with the music and artwork that happens when you successfully lift off into space, going from the thrill of launch to the serenity of orbit. It's a beautiful feeling and one that isn't easily captured by recordings. So it's sad to hear that the company and/or developers who made the game aren't carrying on. The game may not be a commercial success on the scale of Minecraft but the artistic and conceptual achievement are on par or greater. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg [2] https://youtu.be/RzbDyx4Tpdc?t=10m7s https://youtu.be/RzbDyx4Tpdc?t=10m7s [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSzj_uk1fRQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSzj_uk1fRQ
- technion 10y agoSome incredible open source projects came out of KSP. This one: https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ Is a great example. This is the one game I've spent hours on as an adult. I wish the team the best.
- fma 10y agoAt those wages, they can get work off elance, odesk, etc and make a heck lot more money. I guess that's the gaming industry for you. Treat people poorly because they are passionate about what they do and can't find that kind of work elsewhere.
- iplaw 10y agoWow, $2400 a YEAR? No wonder they just lost their entire dev team. That'd be a week's pay in the US for an experienced developer.
- Multiplayer 10y agoquick scan - not sure what is happening here. My 10 year old LOVES this game. He watches you tubers play this for HOURS AND HOURS. this confuses me. I think it's pretty cool. There. :)
- always_good 10y ago^ I hope I never become this HN Dad trope.
- t_fatus 10y agoSeem like everybody forgot to say this : THANK YOU GUYS ! you've made an incredible game with what you had, and inspired a lot of people to write amazing mods on top of it.
- EJTH 10y agoI am actually surprised, I always held high thoughts of Squad.
- meric 10y agoI would suggest they start a kickstarter for donations for the time they've already spent working on KSP at a 97% below market wage.
- abricot 10y agoThis is how spiritual successors are made.
- mrfusion 10y agoThis title really provides no information about what this is about.
- odbol_ 10y agoWelcome to Hacker News; you must be new here
- jacquesm 10y agoIs there a way to donate directly to these guys? They've done some pretty good work and it would be a nice gesture to say thanks by directly improving their conditions and to bypass their employer.
- mindcrash 10y agoSome more information here: https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/55zzmg/information_about_recent_events_at_squad/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/55zzmg/... Most interesting points: "Another point: Squad has been actively censoring the official forums. Any content related to the resignation of the 8 devs was immediately removed. This was done by Squad staff, not the regular forum mods. With this in mind, it's also pretty obvious that the latest Devnote is full of shit. They don't want anyone to think that something is wrong." And: "Currently, there are 2-3 developers left. Two of them were not held highly by their fellow devs, and the third one is RoverDude, who only work part-time." Fantastic. I love(d) KSP :(
- vintermann 10y agoThat's OK, but surely there's an easy way to write a more informative headline?