18 ms·

Never accept a counter-offer

417 points by vtorosyan 10y ago

mtmail 10y ago
"I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months." Can you add a link to those studies?
- deleted 10y ago
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- vtorosyan 10y ago
  Thanks for pointing it out. I've added a link and removed the number as actually there are different studies with different numbers. Here are few other resources of such examples http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-could-be-at-your-peril-survey/articleshow/53275324.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-could... http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not-accepting-a-counter-offer/ http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not... http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-counteroffers http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-countero...
  - fecak 10y ago
    Look at how poorly these articles describe the surveys. One mentions a Pittsburgh recruiting firm - they couldn't even give the firm's name? These surveys are mysterious - nothing even on sample size.
craigvn 10y ago
I generally agree. Unless the reason for leaving is just money those reasons have not gone away by accepting a counter offer, and your current employer's expectations of you will probably change markedly after a large (from their perspective) pay increase potentially making the situation worse.
user5994461 10y ago
> employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months. 15 months MORE. Damn. I wish I could stay that long in a single company. Either the project is long finished, or the startup went bankrupt, or the entire department is redone, or there is somewhere else offering a significant raise, or... Sometimes, I wonder what's the average tenancy for competent employees in a hot tech hub.
- nostrademons 10y ago
  I've heard it's about a year in Silicon Valley.
  - pkaye 10y ago
    In my own experience, I see an average of 3 years. Then there are those who do short stints and more on while others will stick around as long as things are interesting. Also the length of projects vary from industry to industry. When I was doing hardware/firmware, an average project was 2-3 years long so people would atleast stick through that.
- imagist 10y ago
  As of a few years back, the tenure of software developers when leaving a job averaged at 18 months. I'd guess that silicon valley drags that average down, and the rest of the industry drags it up.
hodgesrm 10y ago
"Never" seems awfully absolute. For me at least the decision would depend on the terms of the counter-offer.
- protomyth 10y ago
  The article has this near the end: There are always exceptions, even more, there are cases when accepting a counter-offer is a right decision (your cat dies and you need bunch of money to save her).
throwaway4job 10y ago
Counterpoint, I accepted a counter offer two years ago. Since then, I have been promoted twice. I am now one of the highest-paid, and highest ranked individuals in my organization. Additionally, I have been given many opportunities specifically designed to help me grow my career in the direction that I preferred. This has included everything from project assignment, to introductions to board members and VCs, to educational opportunities. One must always be careful when considering a counter offer, however any blanket advice stating to never accept is going to be wrong, and harmful.
- rajivtiru 10y ago
  There are always exceptions, even more, there are cases when accepting a counter-offer is a right decision The author admits as much and is not actually giving out blanket advice.
  - throw_away_777 10y ago
    The author titles his post "Never accept a counter-offer", and says: "By saying you have to be prepared for it, I meant that you should never accept a counter offer." Just because he later contradicts himself, doesn't make it good writing. You can't have it both ways.
    - Teichopsia 10y ago
      The way I see it with the author stating "(your cat dies and you need bunch of money to save her)." is that only the person that is in the situation can assess the situation. The article talks broadly, but one should still take that particular situation (edge case) into consideration. Tough, it's rarely possible to judge an outcome correctly.
- x0x0 10y ago
  counter counterpoint (or just point?) I accepted a counteroffer and my boss really just said empty words to keep me around. I left 8 months later and should have just left the first time I resigned.
jlgaddis 10y ago
On the other side of this, I accepted a counter-offer and enjoyed another four or so years at the company, finally leaving after being there almost eight years. Never say never.
archildress 10y ago
This couldn't have come at a better time, as I just navigated this last week. I kind of disagree with most of what the author is saying. Here's why. The author posits that you've begun looking for a new job for a reason. There are things that you dislike about your job. That's logical, and it's the number one reason that I went on a search of my own. The problem is that there's always some level of information asymmetry. You know everything you dislike about your current job; you can't know what you'll dislike about your new job until you begin that role. However, once I was given another "great offer", it made me realize that part of every job is disliking certain aspects of it. No matter where you are, it's impossible to find a role that you like 100% of the time. When I received another job offer, it made me realize that there were a lot of things that I was taking for granted about my current job. And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. In fairness, they could've done a better job with this throughout my employment. At the end of the day, the compensation and future commitments (all of which are in writing) made it compelling to me to stay and not risk disliking my next role. Have you ever heard the saying that you should flip a coin to make important decisions, because as soon as the coin is in the air you'll know what you want anyway? Well, I went through the coin flip process and realized I had taken a lot of things for granted at my current employer. And that's why I stayed.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  > And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you, it sounds like an employer who got away with a great bargain while it lasted.
  - cgio 10y ago
    Every employer does that given the opportunity. Their side of the deal is paying you the least amount you will agree to in an arms length transaction. i hate it too, as an employee, but viewing your employer as a socialist daddy won't get you far. There may be some of this kind in the market, but very few.
plan6 10y ago
I get not accepting a counter-offer, although I know one employee that took a counter-offer that was insanely good and has been in golden handcuffs ever since, but couldn't be doing better financially. However, I think that retention agreements and other "bonuses for staying on" can be helpful, even though I think that really what employees want typically are positive changes that would keep them from leaving (like firing a terrible manager or changing a policy) that cost less than retention agreements or counter-offers in many cases. The best case is never to get in this situation by paying really well, hiring really well, and firing bad employees when necessary.
throwaway2016a 10y ago
We had a couple people accept our counter offer then use it as leverage to get a better third opportunity a couple months down the road.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Which is ok. Every paycheck is a renewed offer to stay. Every employee should periodically reevaluate their employment deal, and survey whether a better deal is available. Folks like to throw in 'loyalty' and 'responsibility' here. But I've never seen a company mention those things at layoff time. It has to be a two-way street. And even if a company does try to be 'loyal' to employees by renegotiating terms during economic hard times (job-sharing, reducing hours etc) the cynic in me says "they're trying to reduce costs so they don't have to retrain later". You've got to look out for #1 first. Nobody else is looking out for you after all.
  - throwaway2016a 10y ago
    I guess my point was for those people they ended up with a much better third option by accepting our counter offer. If they had said no to our counter offer they would have been worse off.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Agreed! You get what you negotiate, not what you deserve!
fecak 10y ago
Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accept a counter you'll get calls and emails from the recruiter saying it's "career suicide" (it isn't) and that you're making a huge mistake. Then they quote these stats. I've heard things like "90% of people who accept counters leave the company in 6 months", and they might add "whether fired or through resignation" just to throw some fear into the candidate. These stats are pretty hard to find, and they should be, because companies don't report counteroffers to some agency. They happen in the dark. It's only surveys, and usually conducted by recruiting firms who have a vested interest in the results. Some counteroffers are a mistake, but the people who scream not to accept coineroffers the loudest are the ones with the most to lose. I've written about counteroffers as well, but didn't take the typical recruiter path (https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/ https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/).
- Clubber 10y ago
  I took a counter once. When you're miserable at a place, for whatever reason, a big pay raise will make you forget it for about 4 months, then you'll be miserable again. Life is too short to be miserable 8+ hours a day.
  - elcct 10y ago
    This is how I picture it http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif :D
  - kevan 10y ago
    I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.
    - ryandrake 10y ago
niccaluim 10y ago
Counter offers are a little silly. People in our industry are already making far above the median, which makes it extremely unlikely that money is the motivation behind resignation. More often it's a bad manager—there's a saying that people don't quit jobs; they quit bosses—uninteresting work, change in direction, or some other environmental factor. If you're going to make someone a counter-offer you should also be sure to address the real issue that caused them to want to leave in the first place, or they're just going to leave after a short time anyway.
- mars4rp 10y ago
  It is all about point of reference, depends on you are comparing yourself with someone that makes you more in industry or someone that makes less in other industry.
- nbb 10y ago
  > People in our industry are already making far above the median Well, half of them are.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - tomsthumb 10y ago
    He means the median income for the US. An easy, easy majority of developers and sysadmins are making more than the US median income.
  - wtracy 10y ago
    The median income in the US (in 2014) was $29k. The median salary for a software engineer is supposedly $95k. That's more than triple the overall median. Sources: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-...
    - vonmoltke 10y ago
shaneos 10y ago
I completely agree. I went through this at my first job 13 years ago. I was hugely underpaid. I'd gotten the highest rating and highest raise each year for two years, but still made barely more than new grads coming in as the job market had improved. I did a job search, found 10 jobs I was overqualified for that were offering 60% more money, and took the list to my manager as part of my argument for a raise. For six months he delayed, said he was looking in to it etc, but in the end said there was nothing he could do, he had no flexibility. I found a different company that I liked, accepted their offer at about 60% higher salary and told my manager I was leaving in two weeks. Within 24 hours they had matched the other salary, and thrown in some stock too. They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I was pressing my manager on it every single week. Of course I left. If you are worth the money, you should be paid the money, and not have to beg for it. I was at the next company for a very enjoyable four years, and even got promotions and raises without having to lobby for them and explain my impact.
- verbify 10y ago
  > They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I was pressing my manager on it every single week. They had no incentive to. I was recently in the same situation - doubled my salary after years at another place. Until you bring proof positive that you could bring in more elsewhere there's no reason for them, there's no reason for them to take your word for it that the market would pay you more. Companies often rely on the sunk cost of employees laziness/sunk cost. Depending on the company, if companies gave out raises whenever anyone asked, they'd be broke pretty soon (this applies more to a company like Walmart that relies on a lot of low-paid workers compared to Bell Labs). > I was at the next company for a very enjoyable four years, and even got promotions and raises without having to lobby for them and explain my impact. It's likely that you started working a lot harder at the second place. I know I did.
  - ec109685 10y ago
    > They had no incentive to. The incentive was that they didn't want to lose the employee. Clearly it was not enough of an incentive in this situation, but there was an incentive.
setr 10y ago
"Let’s take an example and say that some Problem A has triggered a need of change. As you are a good employee you have tried already to solve the problem (e.g. you asked for more money or you tried to change the process), you failed. Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes. Why wasn’t it solved before? How long will it take until this kind of a Problem B will appear? When Problem B comes, it’s going to hit harder. Things won’t change." This paragraph bugs me. It's as if the author assumes the workplace to be swarmed with malicious agents, and you, some ambitious, innocent and pure-hearted employee. Why wasn't it solved before? Because it was cheaper to leave it unsolved. Suddenly, you introduce a significant cost to leaving the problem (your leaving the company), and so it gets resolved. And whaddyaknow, it'll happen at any other company too because its pretty damn effective way to operate a business.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only in it for the money, it can be a shock. I agree its wrong to moralize about it. This is business. You sell your skills for cash. You should be prepared to get the best deal you can. Just asking meekly is a losing gambit. It will take more than that to put wheels in motion (get considered for a raise). Like showing an offer you received. Now, that said, my son works as an ME at a contract house. The company owner threatens that anyone even looking for a job will be fired summarily. Childish. It just means resentment simmers, and nobody gives notice which has to screw up schedules and hurt their bottom line.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    > Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only in it for the money, it can be a shock. You know what really would be a shocker to me? A company that isn't in it for the money or a company that isn't trying hard to have employees that are highly productive.
    - 10y ago
ChicagoDave 10y ago
I would say that before you consider all offers, you should be aware of your circumstances. Are you integral to your current company? Do you have an open relationship about your career with your current employer? Do you like your current job? Are the benefits something you think about regularly (4 weeks leave time, work from home, fully covered health insurance)?, having researched pay for your level of experience, where are you? (knowing this is critical). If you're on the low end, ask your employer why. If you do get offered a new position, is "total compensation" better (salary - taxes, medical, dental, leave time, additional benefits)? If offered a bonus, remember you have to pay taxes on it. I tend to agree with the rule "don't entertain counter offers", but if you think you may get one, discuss it directly. A lot of employers will be very honest about your total comp and why they level you there. It's often about their own costs, their own "grid" of salaries, and because they have a "system", they can't really pay you more unless you're promoted to management. It could be about you and if that's the case, they probably view you as expendable and you should almost certainly move on. Whatever you do, try to minimize the emotions and focus on all of the tangible aspects.
jimmywanger 10y ago
Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company. The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer is now offering before the counteroffer. The employer knows that the employee is spending a non-trivial amount of time to interview and talk to other employers. I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be. Exceptions aside (and you don't know if you're in one of those exceptions), a counter offer allows you to exist in a poisoned relationship for a few more months.
- robalfonso 10y ago
  Some times office policies prohibit giving employees good raises and precipitate an environment where a counter offer is necessary to get a good pay bump. The act of the employee looking elsewhere usually removes those internal handcuffs. Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire business. This can also be wholly subjective to the company, culture, boss, and employee.
  - imagist 10y ago
    > Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire business. I read this as: It's not always about shafting an individual so much as shafting all the employees who will let you shaft them.
    - robalfonso 10y ago
      I don't think of my employees this way,in fact I just had one raised to the new "average" because it turned out they didn't negotiate well and were below average ( not my hire, just now my report) - it was a 12% raise. Play devils advocate and see how a "mega corp" runs things. If you could pay everyone discretionally (ie decided by mid level manager) you'd be out of business tomorrow. Those companies keep cost controls just because they are so large. Larger businesses offer more employee security, but there is also less chance for financial growth. The counter offer is essentially a hack on the system.
erik_landerholm 10y ago
Yeah, except most of the time, in my experience, employees rarely try to solve problem A. They may say something or be passive aggressive, but quickly give up and become disgruntled. As someone who has been an engineer at all levels and now an exec at a public company, I rarely give counter offers in this situation. I think there are some cases where it can work, but in most cases; if someone wants to leave, you wish them the best and move on.
george_ciobanu 10y ago
I agree with you in spirit but I have a friend who got A LOT more money for just two years. He thinks it was worth it and I agree. Your rule holds unless there's a lot of money (or some other compensation) that makes it worth it.
antirez 10y ago
I guess that if you want to go because salary is low but otherwise the work is fine, accepting a counter-offer is the best thing you can do :-) However if one does not like the company, to stay for the money may not be a good choice. However this is also true when you have to manage people, it's hardly a good thing to force people to stay at your company if they are unhappy, unless they just want to make more and they deserve it.
ryandrake 10y ago
Do you want to keep working in a place where the only way to get a substantial raise is to threaten to quit? Accepting a counter-offer basically encourages this bad behavior on the part of companies, and I would not accept one on principle. When you get a counter-offer, whatever they say, you should be hearing "Ahh, we got away with paying you this little for so long--now I suppose we have to pay you market rate."
- setr 10y ago
  What it's more of is that your rate of pay-raise doesn't actually match the market-rate. You were hired presumably at market rate, and your pay has presumably gone up/down based on a percentage of that initial rate. Especially if the market is volatile, there'll eventually be a significant discrepancy. And now you have some new company who is paying the market rate, in other words, evaluating your position against the total market. Your company, which was at best evaluating your position within their own corporation, is now forced to do a market-scale re-evaluation. With the poaching offer as the baseline, since you've been tagged by someone as being worth that much (and willing to pay it). And now you've got a big boost in pay. Not because your C_Os were gathering together in the dark halls of the Bedlam basements, black robed, circled around the Sefer Raziel Ha-Malakh Liber Razielis Archangeli, poring over your employee review, whispering amongst themselves "yes, yes, he's a quiet man; he won't complain and he won't tire; give him a penny more and he won't trouble another year; the fucking fool". All it is is that there was never a reason to do more work than necessary. And no reason to pay more than necessary. Y'know, don't programmers have a similar saying?
jondubois 10y ago
It depends on the situation. If the codebase is a mess and you're the only person who understands it and the boss is aware of this; and your absence would cause the business to lose a ton of money and the boss offers you an amazing deal then you should definitely accept the counter-offer.
DominikR 10y ago
Okay, so if I were to believe what this person wrote, in specific that no one is going to profit from accepting counter offers and that on top of that the relationship between employer and employee will alway get worse and that there will be lots of apathy then I have to ask why would any employer ever make a counter offer? What do they have to gain from an employee that hates working from them? > Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes. Why wasn’t it solved before? Because this employee is very likely a weak person in this regard. If it can be solved within ten minutes then it is very likely that you would have been able to get what you wanted without threatening to quit your job. The one thing that I agree on is that one should follow through on his decisions, but this shouldn't be done in an irrational way. You usually decide to do something because you want some kind of improvement. If it is possible to reach an agreement with your current employer that gives you exactly that then why shouldn't you accept?
tomp 10y ago
> I have seen surveys showing that majority of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months. So? That stat is quite meaningless without a control group. I.e. how long does a typical emplyoee stay with a company? Probably not much more than 15 months on average...
tptacek 10y ago
I'm not a recruiter (anymore?) and I will say that I think the advice in this post is pretty important. I've had two bad experiences with being tainted after accepting a counter, and the logic behind why that happens is extremely straightforward. Clearly, there's a lot of dramatic license built into the word "never" in the title (a less baity title would be "Be wary of counter-offers"). Clearly, there are employers that will make counters in good faith hoping to retain you for the long haul. But business is business, and many employers, even very good ones, aren't going to make irrational decisions just to be nice.
- fecak 10y ago
  I think it's important to differentiate what type of counter it is and whether or not it solves the problem reasonably. A counter can be a pay raise, new role/promotion, or even something like letting someone telecommute. Those are all very different scenarios, and the stereotypical "walks into managers office with shiny offer from competitor demanding more" may have less positive long-term results than the more common less aggressive approach.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I once accepted a counter that included a pay raise, a substantial equity grant, and had my requirements for role adjustments mostly met --- all offered entirely to prevent me from moving to a new job. I shouldn't have! Things were O.K. for about six months, and only then did it clear that I'd been sidelined --- after the company had put in motion its plans for post-me continuity. Basically: they bought themselves time, and used it to deal with the presumption that I would inevitably leave. The specific terms of a counter don't mean much. The problem is that declaring your intent to leave can (maybe: usually does?) mark you as a flight risk. Flight risks get managed differently. If what you value about your job is compensation, that might not matter! But if what you want is escalating levels of responsibility, being perceived as a flight risk is a real problem.
    - fecak 10y ago
      This anecdote is exactly the type of cautionary tale that recruiters use to scare candidates and dissuade counteroffer acceptance. You're a natural!
VertexRed 10y ago
I don't know about you people, but if I received a counter-offer which involved an unlimited amount of free snacks I'd take it.
ptero 10y ago
If a counter-offer (or the reason you interviewed with other companies) is about money, accepting it is IMO a bad idea -- the company wants to minimize the pain of your leaving now, not the pain of your leaving in general. If you want to change what you do (coding to management, UI to AI, etc.) and the management offers you good options to consider, this is likely to be a genuine desire to keep you working for a company in whatever capacity. In this case accepting it should not put you on a path to the door.
hota_mazi 10y ago
Anyone who gives you absolute advice like this one has a hidden agenda. Except me, right now.
jredwards 10y ago
Did anyone else find this article borderline incoherent?
LyalinDotCom 10y ago
I'm a bit surprised this thread is getting this much attention. Honestly there is no magic answer to stuff like this, it always "depends".
- deleted 10y ago
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thraway_perfin 10y ago
The "never" bit seems like bad advice. Terrible advice, honestly. I've worked happily at one of the "big" tech companies. Without going too much into details, I ended up getting a really big offer from another one of the big guys (i.e., in the seven figure range over 4 years, obviously with the bulk of it being equity). I was really torn. I was happy at my job, but that's a large enough of money to make a material difference in the lives of my loved ones. And like a lot of people here, I value the happiness of my family over my own. I didn't expect my existing employer to do much. So I gave my boss an early heads up this was happening, partly because I thought there was a small chance there would, but mostly so I would leave on good terms. Again, long story short, they not only matched the offer but came over the top of it. I went home to think about, talked about it with my wife & decided the next day to accept the counteroffer. That was a few years ago. I've honestly been happy since then. I don't feel this was ever held over my head or held against me. (To the contrary, I was recently promoted.) When it comes to counteroffers, a lot of it comes down to two things: 1) why you were looking in the first place, and 2) how you handle things with your existing employer. Regarding (1) - if you were unhappy, money isn't going to fix that. Staying just because of money is dubious at best. Regarding (2) - the main thing is don't be an asshole. Nobody is going to hold you advocating for your own best interests. Senior execs know the game. They would do the same thing in your place (if they haven't already). If you're an asshole, well, nobody wants to keep an asshole in the first place. But if you're pragmatic & even–keeled, you don't damage the relationships (even if you stay or go).
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  That's amazing! Well done on pulling out off man :)
smileysteve 10y ago
> "I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months." In an industry where the average tenure is about 23 months; this seems neither surprising nor alarming.
beefsack 10y ago
I accepted a counter-offer which contained a significant amount of equity, and has now paid itself off multiple times over. I feel you can't give black-and-white advice on this.
fbreduc 10y ago
Not very good advice, these things are always highly situational and any clear cut answer would prove ignorance
pugworthy 10y ago
Some counter offers are easy to reject. A while back I applied to another part of the company for a position that was a promotion, and got offered the position. My manager, who was notified (inner company), comes to me and says, "Hey, if I could get you the promotion, would you stay? Even though I don't think you deserve it?" "Mmm... no thanks."
atsaloli 10y ago
I accepted a counter offer as a senior sysadmin at my last job and then ended up getting promoted to Dir Ops. I never regretted accepting the counter offer, even though the recruiter tried to talk me out of it.
kardashian007 10y ago
To clarify: it may come off as expecting mind-reading if hypothetical employee doesn't raise deal-breaker Problem A through channels first. If all channels are exhausted, then sure, move along away from a shop that can't/won't remedy underlying issue/s to a more civilized place that tries harder to make the work community as enjoyable and productive as reasonably possible. Finally, two points: both avoid perpetual grass-is-always-greener-itis and there is an always-moving trajectory for both the organization and each contributor, best to leave at the right time to maximize effectiveness and rewards.
daniel_iversen 10y ago
I'd like to suggest a rule of thumb from the employer's/manager's side that I was given by a mentor once (and I've seen the consequences anecdotally both when I followed it and when I didn't); Just like the article suggests not to accept a counter offer I'd say don't ever GIVE a counter offer (or try to keep the employee resigning). Of course always treat your people well and try your best to resolve issues and keep on top of their aspirations and desires but when they've already made up their mind to resign and they actually resign rarely (in my limited experience) can anything good come from you persuading them to stay because: A) they'll likely leave anyway within 1-1.5 years B) they might never actually have left and they're using very poor/immoral negotiation tactics C) it sends a horrible sign to the other employees saying they (only) get ahead if they threaten to resign And you have to be pretty fil with whatever your convictions are here I believe. So in my view the article is right - never accept a counter offer (I did once and while it was a bit promotion it was a huge mistake) but also never give one!
- thembones 10y ago
  Giving counter-offers is just as bad as accepting, you're right. This has been written on as well, http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers
rickmak 10y ago
If a boss give counter offer without providing road map on solving your concern. I agree the counter offer should reject. But there is chance, counter offer can be change of department. Which can be different story. If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. But just don't want to hire a new one. Everyone know hiring is difficult. Hiring is boss problem.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  > If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. What if your problem is that you wanted more money?
csvarona 10y ago
It really depends on the reason you're leaving. For example: if you were leaving because of mismanagement, then a counter-offer without any promise for change in management will not be enough.
zxcvvcxz 10y ago
I will have to disagree with this on the following grounds: 1) As others have pointed out, look who's doing the suggesting. Recruiters profit from your movement between jobs, hence they will always encourage/justify it. This prioritizes their interests, not necessarily yours. 2) You were thinking of leaving, then the employer gave you a reason to stay. Sometimes life isn't worth overthinking: you got what you wanted through negotiation (your willingness to leave), so enjoy it! Now that's not to say things always go well with this scenario. A counter-offer is not something I would want to normally do as an employer. It sets a bad precident: if I value you as an employee and my cost of replacing you is very high, you can just threaten to leave an get an automatic salary bump. Furthermore, when word gets around (and it probably will...) my other employees might not be so happy that someone got an ad-hoc performance review. Now everyone wants their contract re-evaluated. It's tough, and not black-and-white.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
My father once received a pre-emptive counteroffer. Basically, he did his job well and took on steadily increasing responsibilities as the company expanded rapidly, and in five years he went from a minor role in a small business to a critical role in a large business. One day his bosses suddenly realized that their senior system administrator was working for peanuts and any of their competitors would love to have him. They gave him a 50% raise on the spot. He hadn't even been thinking about other work.
mgalka 10y ago
Interesting post, though am I the only one who finds it strange to see it upvoted so many times on hacker news.
dredmorbius 10y ago
Five letters: BATNA What is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement? In any negotiation, with any party, your strength lies in your ability to walk away. If a vendor isn't offering you the product, or features, or price, you want, then having the alternative to walk elsewhere gives you strength. It's what lies at the foundation of the concept of a competitive market (though there are other elements as well, many involving information access). Businesses, and recruiters, such as the one offering this exceptionally poor advice, have far more data, and far more experience than any given single worker in engaging in labour negotiations. Hell: It is their core competency. Accepting the terms of an employer or recruiter in engaging in the battle directly is the worst possible thing you can do. Which includes this still-born advice to never accept a counteroffer. Are there counteroffers you shouldn't accept? Yes. Are there counteroffers you should accept? Yes. You'll find discussion in this thread on both sets of circumstances. (A general guideline: if it's the money that's been what's making you unhappy at a given job, go for it. If it's been other matters, that is what you should be negotiating on, though sweetening the pot doesn't hurt either.) The degree of ignorance exhibited by far too many technologists on the concepts of negotiating, power, leverage, and advantage is vast. I include myself. I can only suggest: go out and start studying the literature, including Machiavelli, Hobbes, J.K. Galbraith's The Anatomy of Power, and books on sales and negotiation. I'm finding older works from the late 19th and early 20th centuries particularly informative -- there's much more openness about direct tactics, and a distinct lack of embarassment in discussing them. More recent material can be useful and will show additional tricks, and advances in psychology, but I find that the traditional insights themselves are quite telling. Michael O. Church has much to say on the inequalities, including overt blacklists, which exist within Silicon Valley and elsewhere, which may be illuminating: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fought-for/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fough... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti...
- fecak 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure the author of this story isn't a recruiter, no?
deleted 10y ago
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jrobichaud 10y ago
I once worked in a company where the only way to get a raise was to get a counter offer. Each year even the best people were getting raises lower than the cost of life increase. The employees were so unmotivated, all they wanted was to find another job. Don't take a counter offer, flee those kind of places.
enneff 10y ago
A better way of looking at this is to be honest with your employer about your happiness in your role. Feel like you're not paid enough? Not challenged? Difficulty with teammates or manager? Raise these issues. If you are not taken seriously, then you know you are in the wrong place, and can look for something else without even needing to consider entertaining a counter-offer.
losteverything 10y ago
Got called into SVP' office. "Oh Crap," I thought. Marched into secure Exec area. SVP:Is Joe Blow good? Me: yes. Critical SVP: why? Me: runs acqusition system. Only one that knows it. Smart too SVP: thanks. -- I left with my escort and called my boss. "What was that about?" said Joe quit and his salary request to stay needed Executive approval. So SVP asked to talk to someone who directs his work (me).
- kdamken 10y ago
  That's a cool story. It's nice that you were able to help a coworker like that.
robbiemitchell 10y ago
A note of agreement: The money is a symptom. Even if your current employer counteroffers, the fact that you got them to cough up the extra dough doesn't change the fact that they didn't value you enough to retain you with it in the first place. If money/title/growth/etc. are important, and you've made it clear to your manager sufficiently, and they still don't act: go. The counteroffer won't change the underlying dynamic, and its other symptoms will continue to manifest.
- merpnderp 10y ago
  It's not that they didn't value you, it's that you made an agreement to sell your services at a given price. If you no longer like the agreement let them know. Anyone worth working for won't have hard feelings that you've decided you're worth more. Labor is part of a market where people get to decide how much their labor is worth. Take full advantage of that, as employers certainly will.
alex-yo 10y ago
Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now. The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average that we pay". And I wanted just about the same money I was earning in my previous job. From my perspective the job hunt is a one shot thing. I give some figure, they stop being interested. No negotiation, no counter-offer, no other things. So it seems like the market is not that good for programmers, or I'm just so unlucky.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  I mean no insult by this: were you possibly paid more at your previous employer than the market thinks you're worth?
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    There can be huge variations in the market.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  I believe wrt to this article, the counter offer they are talking about is a counter offer from your current employer, not a counter offer from an interview. But from someone who has done his fair share of hiring, I'll tell you that I almost never entertain someone who asks for a lot more than I'm willing to pay. The reason is that you are very likely to be unhappy with your salary. No matter what your performance is like, you are probably going to be asking for a top up soon -- probably with extra to make up for the perceived deficiency when starting. No matter what deal we strike, this is going to be a point of contention going forward. And while it might be uncouth to talk about it in these circles, if you are unhappy then you're going to complain to everybody around you about how little you get paid. If you are experienced and talented and worth a good salary, then you are likely already going to be paid a fair bit more than the average person on the team. So the result is that I've got an unhappy guy wandering the halls complaining about how ridiculously small his salary is, when it is already one of the highest on the team. And then, when someone else on the team comes in and says, "alex-yo is getting X more than me and I'm way better than him/her", I have the distinctly difficult conversation where I have to tell them, "No. alex-yo gets paid a lot more than you because he/she is more experienced and has more skills than you. Let me enumerate all of the situations where alex-yo is performing better than you." And then that person, despite potentially being educated about where they can improve, is likely pissed of at me. So then they'll go to you and say, "Geeze, I'm only making Y. I should be getting paid at least as much as you." And you will be going, "....." because you know as well as I do that this person is only doing half of what you do. At which point I have a bunch of guys pissed off at their salary, pissed off with me and pissed off with each other. Seriously, it's not worth it. So no, I'm not going counter your very high expectations with a low-ball offer. There are other candidates whose expectations are in line with mine. And even if you are worth the money, it won't be worth it for my team. Which is not to say that we shouldn't always be showcasing top performers like alex-yo and encouraging the team to adopt similarly successful behaviours. And it's not that we should not be rewarding people who succeed in getting to the next level. But I'm not about to start hitting hornet nests with sticks for no good reason.
known 10y ago
If you take the counter-offer you'll be dumped after the job is done :)
omahlama 10y ago
Accepting the counter offer may not be a great strategy, but listening to it is. When changing jobs the last time, my old employer offered a salary bump to keep me. When I told this to my new employer, they immediately offered to match the salary. I ended up making more money than I would have otherwise.
alkonaut 10y ago
I once was moving out of the city where I was employed, so naturally looked for opportunities where I was moving. The city I was moving to was larger and had nearly 50% higher salaries. When my boss realized I was moving, he offered me to work remotely. I said I had already accepted the new offer, and left. Boss said I was always welcome back if I changed my mind (The idea of a big raise never came up at this point). A year later, the old boss contacted me and offered me to work remotely, and matched the salary of the bigger city I was living in, so I signed back to the old company with a deal that was likely better than what I could have gotten had accepted to stay initially. Bottom line is: - Keep good relations with employers where you like working: - A good way of getting a raise might sometimes be leaving and then returning.
oneeyedpigeon 10y ago
I've had a counter-offer at each of the jobs I've resigned from. Neither got much beyond the stage of "Would you stay for more money?". The first, I gave my employer the courtesy of saying I would think on it overnight, although my mind was already up (but you never know). The second I judged not as serious an offer. Neither time I left was it about the money, anyway. It did make me curious. I think an alternative way to read it (as opposed to the "why didn't I get this sooner?" attitude from the article) is "why didn't I ask for a pay-rise sooner?". This has made me more confident in dealing with employers; I'm about to ask my current one for a rise and I think I'll get it. It's quite nice to leave it open-ended, too. If an employer dangles the promise of 'more money' in front of you, but you don't actually go into details, you can always fantasise that it was going to be twice as big as it actually was. That way, you'll probably aim higher in future than if you'd found out the full details.
alicelthwaite 10y ago
I'm not a recruiter and I completely agree. Never accept a counter offer. Having said this - I work in sales, and a lot depends on trust between you and the company when you work in that profession. It may be different for developers etc.
udev 10y ago
I don't know what triggered the author to write this, possibly a personal experience. But whatever it was, he seems convinced that he has seen the light, and even distilled the message to "Never accept a counter-offer", which is nothing but a loud, attention grabbing, media-optimized title, but also, ultimately too-general-to-be-useful type of advice. The text itself is lacking useful information, maybe with the exceptions of the link to the surveys. As I get older I observe how smart people tend to put in a large amount of work before they feel ready to disseminate their carefully created, validated, humble in scope, and very often valuable message. This is the opposite of that.
cloverich 10y ago
> When it’s all about a feeling, things are hardly going to change even with a great counteroffer, so staying in the same place because now you have a free public transport ticket is just an apathy. That feeling will stalk you forever, it will make the relationship between you and your employer worse and there will be no winning side. Does anyone have any personal stories about this -- having no hard / defensible reason other than not feeling right -- and leaving? How did it work out for you?
evo_9 10y ago
I accepted a counteroffer once and it ended up being a huge mistake. The company was struggling and they felt they couldn't lose me etc, it was near the end of the year and everyone was already upset because it was announced that we wouldn't receive end of year/xmas bonus'. After I accepted the counter-offer I was at a lunch xmas party for our team (around 15 of us) and one person said to 'thank god this isn't a going away lunch for rick (me).', to which everyone was like 'you were going to leave???'. I was the tech lead so this news hit the other devs hard... at some point i was chatting with a few different employees (non-devs) and they said to me 'so you had to go get another job to force them to give you a raise, good move', to which I just smiled and didn't know what to say back and finally threw out 'I suppose so'. The next work day - monday 12/24 - I'm working from home and I get a call from HR; they fired me over the phone on xmas-eve, apparently the 3 employees I had the late conversation with went to HR and claimed I was bragging about the raise and that the only way to get a raise at the company was to get another job and threaten to leave. No amount of explaining that's not happened would appease them, and as they put it they had '3 peoples word against just you'. So yeah I will never accept a count-offer again!
- stuxnet79 10y ago
  Bummer, what a terrible outcome. This is why I always mind my business and abide by the 'your co-workers are not your friends' dictum.
Shivetya 10y ago
just remember that not everything is about earning more money, sometimes the best career moves may involve making less and with reduced stress and angst
UseStrict 10y ago
I accepted a counteroffer with mixed results. I was given an offer at a company in Europe which pretty closely matched my salary and perks. It came with a small pay bump but most importantly, extra vacation time and a solid relocation bonus. I had submitted notice with my current employer, who gave me a counteroffer matching the money, increasing my holidays and giving me the ability to work remotely from wherever I chose. I accepted the counteroffer because I still liked the company I work for and they now were meeting my other requirements. About 6 months later I was planning my relocation when I was notified by HR that they would not be fulfilling that part of my contract citing nothing but "legal requirements." I have been intensely bitter towards them ever since.
- justin66 10y ago
  You still work for them?!?
johnward 10y ago
I've taken 3 counter offers at the same company. Will probably do it again if my current job search goes well. In a company like mine you can't just ask for a raise and expect to get it. However, if a key resource resigns wheels start turning. All the sudden they can give significant increases. Otherwise you grind it out year after year hoping for 3% but some people get nothing. I'm going to hate my life no matter the job. So I will work for the highest bidder or most leave time.

417 points by vtorosyan 10y ago

"I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months." Can you add a link to those studies?

deleted 10y ago
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vtorosyan 10y ago
Thanks for pointing it out. I've added a link and removed the number as actually there are different studies with different numbers. Here are few other resources of such examples http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-could-be-at-your-peril-survey/articleshow/53275324.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/counter-offer-could... http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not-accepting-a-counter-offer/ http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not... http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-counteroffers http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-countero...
- fecak 10y ago
  Look at how poorly these articles describe the surveys. One mentions a Pittsburgh recruiting firm - they couldn't even give the firm's name? These surveys are mysterious - nothing even on sample size.

craigvn 10y ago

I generally agree. Unless the reason for leaving is just money those reasons have not gone away by accepting a counter offer, and your current employer's expectations of you will probably change markedly after a large (from their perspective) pay increase potentially making the situation worse.

user5994461 10y ago

> employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months. 15 months MORE. Damn. I wish I could stay that long in a single company. Either the project is long finished, or the startup went bankrupt, or the entire department is redone, or there is somewhere else offering a significant raise, or... Sometimes, I wonder what's the average tenancy for competent employees in a hot tech hub.

nostrademons 10y ago
I've heard it's about a year in Silicon Valley.
- pkaye 10y ago
  In my own experience, I see an average of 3 years. Then there are those who do short stints and more on while others will stick around as long as things are interesting. Also the length of projects vary from industry to industry. When I was doing hardware/firmware, an average project was 2-3 years long so people would atleast stick through that.
imagist 10y ago
As of a few years back, the tenure of software developers when leaving a job averaged at 18 months. I'd guess that silicon valley drags that average down, and the rest of the industry drags it up.

hodgesrm 10y ago

"Never" seems awfully absolute. For me at least the decision would depend on the terms of the counter-offer.

protomyth 10y ago
The article has this near the end: There are always exceptions, even more, there are cases when accepting a counter-offer is a right decision (your cat dies and you need bunch of money to save her).

throwaway4job 10y ago

Counterpoint, I accepted a counter offer two years ago. Since then, I have been promoted twice. I am now one of the highest-paid, and highest ranked individuals in my organization. Additionally, I have been given many opportunities specifically designed to help me grow my career in the direction that I preferred. This has included everything from project assignment, to introductions to board members and VCs, to educational opportunities. One must always be careful when considering a counter offer, however any blanket advice stating to never accept is going to be wrong, and harmful.

rajivtiru 10y ago
There are always exceptions, even more, there are cases when accepting a counter-offer is a right decision The author admits as much and is not actually giving out blanket advice.
- throw_away_777 10y ago
  The author titles his post "Never accept a counter-offer", and says: "By saying you have to be prepared for it, I meant that you should never accept a counter offer." Just because he later contradicts himself, doesn't make it good writing. You can't have it both ways.
  - Teichopsia 10y ago
    The way I see it with the author stating "(your cat dies and you need bunch of money to save her)." is that only the person that is in the situation can assess the situation. The article talks broadly, but one should still take that particular situation (edge case) into consideration. Tough, it's rarely possible to judge an outcome correctly.
x0x0 10y ago
counter counterpoint (or just point?) I accepted a counteroffer and my boss really just said empty words to keep me around. I left 8 months later and should have just left the first time I resigned.

jlgaddis 10y ago

On the other side of this, I accepted a counter-offer and enjoyed another four or so years at the company, finally leaving after being there almost eight years. Never say never.

archildress 10y ago

This couldn't have come at a better time, as I just navigated this last week. I kind of disagree with most of what the author is saying. Here's why. The author posits that you've begun looking for a new job for a reason. There are things that you dislike about your job. That's logical, and it's the number one reason that I went on a search of my own. The problem is that there's always some level of information asymmetry. You know everything you dislike about your current job; you can't know what you'll dislike about your new job until you begin that role. However, once I was given another "great offer", it made me realize that part of every job is disliking certain aspects of it. No matter where you are, it's impossible to find a role that you like 100% of the time. When I received another job offer, it made me realize that there were a lot of things that I was taking for granted about my current job. And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. In fairness, they could've done a better job with this throughout my employment. At the end of the day, the compensation and future commitments (all of which are in writing) made it compelling to me to stay and not risk disliking my next role. Have you ever heard the saying that you should flip a coin to make important decisions, because as soon as the coin is in the air you'll know what you want anyway? Well, I went through the coin flip process and realized I had taken a lot of things for granted at my current employer. And that's why I stayed.

ryandrake 10y ago
> And when I notified my current employer that I was leaving, they reminded me of how valued I was with the package that they put together. Yea, you were so valued that they DIDN'T offer it to you until you threatened to leave. That doesn't sound like an employer that values you, it sounds like an employer who got away with a great bargain while it lasted.
- cgio 10y ago
  Every employer does that given the opportunity. Their side of the deal is paying you the least amount you will agree to in an arms length transaction. i hate it too, as an employee, but viewing your employer as a socialist daddy won't get you far. There may be some of this kind in the market, but very few.

plan6 10y ago

I get not accepting a counter-offer, although I know one employee that took a counter-offer that was insanely good and has been in golden handcuffs ever since, but couldn't be doing better financially. However, I think that retention agreements and other "bonuses for staying on" can be helpful, even though I think that really what employees want typically are positive changes that would keep them from leaving (like firing a terrible manager or changing a policy) that cost less than retention agreements or counter-offers in many cases. The best case is never to get in this situation by paying really well, hiring really well, and firing bad employees when necessary.

throwaway2016a 10y ago

We had a couple people accept our counter offer then use it as leverage to get a better third opportunity a couple months down the road.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Which is ok. Every paycheck is a renewed offer to stay. Every employee should periodically reevaluate their employment deal, and survey whether a better deal is available. Folks like to throw in 'loyalty' and 'responsibility' here. But I've never seen a company mention those things at layoff time. It has to be a two-way street. And even if a company does try to be 'loyal' to employees by renegotiating terms during economic hard times (job-sharing, reducing hours etc) the cynic in me says "they're trying to reduce costs so they don't have to retrain later". You've got to look out for #1 first. Nobody else is looking out for you after all.
- throwaway2016a 10y ago
  I guess my point was for those people they ended up with a much better third option by accepting our counter offer. If they had said no to our counter offer they would have been worse off.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Agreed! You get what you negotiate, not what you deserve!

fecak 10y ago

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accept a counter you'll get calls and emails from the recruiter saying it's "career suicide" (it isn't) and that you're making a huge mistake. Then they quote these stats. I've heard things like "90% of people who accept counters leave the company in 6 months", and they might add "whether fired or through resignation" just to throw some fear into the candidate. These stats are pretty hard to find, and they should be, because companies don't report counteroffers to some agency. They happen in the dark. It's only surveys, and usually conducted by recruiting firms who have a vested interest in the results. Some counteroffers are a mistake, but the people who scream not to accept coineroffers the loudest are the ones with the most to lose. I've written about counteroffers as well, but didn't take the typical recruiter path (https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/ https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/).

Clubber 10y ago
I took a counter once. When you're miserable at a place, for whatever reason, a big pay raise will make you forget it for about 4 months, then you'll be miserable again. Life is too short to be miserable 8+ hours a day.
- elcct 10y ago
  This is how I picture it http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif :D
- kevan 10y ago
  I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.
  - ryandrake 10y ago

niccaluim 10y ago

Counter offers are a little silly. People in our industry are already making far above the median, which makes it extremely unlikely that money is the motivation behind resignation. More often it's a bad manager—there's a saying that people don't quit jobs; they quit bosses—uninteresting work, change in direction, or some other environmental factor. If you're going to make someone a counter-offer you should also be sure to address the real issue that caused them to want to leave in the first place, or they're just going to leave after a short time anyway.

mars4rp 10y ago
It is all about point of reference, depends on you are comparing yourself with someone that makes you more in industry or someone that makes less in other industry.
nbb 10y ago
> People in our industry are already making far above the median Well, half of them are.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tomsthumb 10y ago
  He means the median income for the US. An easy, easy majority of developers and sysadmins are making more than the US median income.
- wtracy 10y ago
  The median income in the US (in 2014) was $29k. The median salary for a software engineer is supposedly $95k. That's more than triple the overall median. Sources: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-...
  - vonmoltke 10y ago

shaneos 10y ago

I completely agree. I went through this at my first job 13 years ago. I was hugely underpaid. I'd gotten the highest rating and highest raise each year for two years, but still made barely more than new grads coming in as the job market had improved. I did a job search, found 10 jobs I was overqualified for that were offering 60% more money, and took the list to my manager as part of my argument for a raise. For six months he delayed, said he was looking in to it etc, but in the end said there was nothing he could do, he had no flexibility. I found a different company that I liked, accepted their offer at about 60% higher salary and told my manager I was leaving in two weeks. Within 24 hours they had matched the other salary, and thrown in some stock too. They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I was pressing my manager on it every single week. Of course I left. If you are worth the money, you should be paid the money, and not have to beg for it. I was at the next company for a very enjoyable four years, and even got promotions and raises without having to lobby for them and explain my impact.

verbify 10y ago
> They could clearly have done this at any time in the past six months, when I was pressing my manager on it every single week. They had no incentive to. I was recently in the same situation - doubled my salary after years at another place. Until you bring proof positive that you could bring in more elsewhere there's no reason for them, there's no reason for them to take your word for it that the market would pay you more. Companies often rely on the sunk cost of employees laziness/sunk cost. Depending on the company, if companies gave out raises whenever anyone asked, they'd be broke pretty soon (this applies more to a company like Walmart that relies on a lot of low-paid workers compared to Bell Labs). > I was at the next company for a very enjoyable four years, and even got promotions and raises without having to lobby for them and explain my impact. It's likely that you started working a lot harder at the second place. I know I did.
- ec109685 10y ago
  > They had no incentive to. The incentive was that they didn't want to lose the employee. Clearly it was not enough of an incentive in this situation, but there was an incentive.

setr 10y ago

"Let’s take an example and say that some Problem A has triggered a need of change. As you are a good employee you have tried already to solve the problem (e.g. you asked for more money or you tried to change the process), you failed. Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes. Why wasn’t it solved before? How long will it take until this kind of a Problem B will appear? When Problem B comes, it’s going to hit harder. Things won’t change." This paragraph bugs me. It's as if the author assumes the workplace to be swarmed with malicious agents, and you, some ambitious, innocent and pure-hearted employee. Why wasn't it solved before? Because it was cheaper to leave it unsolved. Suddenly, you introduce a significant cost to leaving the problem (your leaving the company), and so it gets resolved. And whaddyaknow, it'll happen at any other company too because its pretty damn effective way to operate a business.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only in it for the money, it can be a shock. I agree its wrong to moralize about it. This is business. You sell your skills for cash. You should be prepared to get the best deal you can. Just asking meekly is a losing gambit. It will take more than that to put wheels in motion (get considered for a raise). Like showing an offer you received. Now, that said, my son works as an ME at a contract house. The company owner threatens that anyone even looking for a job will be fired summarily. Childish. It just means resentment simmers, and nobody gives notice which has to screw up schedules and hurt their bottom line.
- DominikR 10y ago
  > Its only a problem if you assume a supportive employer, one that is looking out for your productivity and success. When you find out your company is only in it for the money, it can be a shock. You know what really would be a shocker to me? A company that isn't in it for the money or a company that isn't trying hard to have employees that are highly productive.
  - 10y ago

ChicagoDave 10y ago

I would say that before you consider all offers, you should be aware of your circumstances. Are you integral to your current company? Do you have an open relationship about your career with your current employer? Do you like your current job? Are the benefits something you think about regularly (4 weeks leave time, work from home, fully covered health insurance)?, having researched pay for your level of experience, where are you? (knowing this is critical). If you're on the low end, ask your employer why. If you do get offered a new position, is "total compensation" better (salary - taxes, medical, dental, leave time, additional benefits)? If offered a bonus, remember you have to pay taxes on it. I tend to agree with the rule "don't entertain counter offers", but if you think you may get one, discuss it directly. A lot of employers will be very honest about your total comp and why they level you there. It's often about their own costs, their own "grid" of salaries, and because they have a "system", they can't really pay you more unless you're promoted to management. It could be about you and if that's the case, they probably view you as expendable and you should almost certainly move on. Whatever you do, try to minimize the emotions and focus on all of the tangible aspects.

jimmywanger 10y ago

Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company. The employee now knows that he could have gotten the same thing the employer is now offering before the counteroffer. The employer knows that the employee is spending a non-trivial amount of time to interview and talk to other employers. I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be. Exceptions aside (and you don't know if you're in one of those exceptions), a counter offer allows you to exist in a poisoned relationship for a few more months.

robalfonso 10y ago
Some times office policies prohibit giving employees good raises and precipitate an environment where a counter offer is necessary to get a good pay bump. The act of the employee looking elsewhere usually removes those internal handcuffs. Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire business. This can also be wholly subjective to the company, culture, boss, and employee.
- imagist 10y ago
  > Its not always about shafting an individual so much as managing the entire business. I read this as: It's not always about shafting an individual so much as shafting all the employees who will let you shaft them.
  - robalfonso 10y ago
    I don't think of my employees this way,in fact I just had one raised to the new "average" because it turned out they didn't negotiate well and were below average ( not my hire, just now my report) - it was a 12% raise. Play devils advocate and see how a "mega corp" runs things. If you could pay everyone discretionally (ie decided by mid level manager) you'd be out of business tomorrow. Those companies keep cost controls just because they are so large. Larger businesses offer more employee security, but there is also less chance for financial growth. The counter offer is essentially a hack on the system.

erik_landerholm 10y ago

Yeah, except most of the time, in my experience, employees rarely try to solve problem A. They may say something or be passive aggressive, but quickly give up and become disgruntled. As someone who has been an engineer at all levels and now an exec at a public company, I rarely give counter offers in this situation. I think there are some cases where it can work, but in most cases; if someone wants to leave, you wish them the best and move on.

george_ciobanu 10y ago

I agree with you in spirit but I have a friend who got A LOT more money for just two years. He thinks it was worth it and I agree. Your rule holds unless there's a lot of money (or some other compensation) that makes it worth it.

antirez 10y ago

I guess that if you want to go because salary is low but otherwise the work is fine, accepting a counter-offer is the best thing you can do :-) However if one does not like the company, to stay for the money may not be a good choice. However this is also true when you have to manage people, it's hardly a good thing to force people to stay at your company if they are unhappy, unless they just want to make more and they deserve it.

ryandrake 10y ago

Do you want to keep working in a place where the only way to get a substantial raise is to threaten to quit? Accepting a counter-offer basically encourages this bad behavior on the part of companies, and I would not accept one on principle. When you get a counter-offer, whatever they say, you should be hearing "Ahh, we got away with paying you this little for so long--now I suppose we have to pay you market rate."

setr 10y ago
What it's more of is that your rate of pay-raise doesn't actually match the market-rate. You were hired presumably at market rate, and your pay has presumably gone up/down based on a percentage of that initial rate. Especially if the market is volatile, there'll eventually be a significant discrepancy. And now you have some new company who is paying the market rate, in other words, evaluating your position against the total market. Your company, which was at best evaluating your position within their own corporation, is now forced to do a market-scale re-evaluation. With the poaching offer as the baseline, since you've been tagged by someone as being worth that much (and willing to pay it). And now you've got a big boost in pay. Not because your C_Os were gathering together in the dark halls of the Bedlam basements, black robed, circled around the Sefer Raziel Ha-Malakh Liber Razielis Archangeli, poring over your employee review, whispering amongst themselves "yes, yes, he's a quiet man; he won't complain and he won't tire; give him a penny more and he won't trouble another year; the fucking fool". All it is is that there was never a reason to do more work than necessary. And no reason to pay more than necessary. Y'know, don't programmers have a similar saying?

jondubois 10y ago

It depends on the situation. If the codebase is a mess and you're the only person who understands it and the boss is aware of this; and your absence would cause the business to lose a ton of money and the boss offers you an amazing deal then you should definitely accept the counter-offer.

DominikR 10y ago

Okay, so if I were to believe what this person wrote, in specific that no one is going to profit from accepting counter offers and that on top of that the relationship between employer and employee will alway get worse and that there will be lots of apathy then I have to ask why would any employer ever make a counter offer? What do they have to gain from an employee that hates working from them? > Now, all of a sudden Problem A gets solved in just some 10 minutes. Why wasn’t it solved before? Because this employee is very likely a weak person in this regard. If it can be solved within ten minutes then it is very likely that you would have been able to get what you wanted without threatening to quit your job. The one thing that I agree on is that one should follow through on his decisions, but this shouldn't be done in an irrational way. You usually decide to do something because you want some kind of improvement. If it is possible to reach an agreement with your current employer that gives you exactly that then why shouldn't you accept?

tomp 10y ago

> I have seen surveys showing that majority of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months. So? That stat is quite meaningless without a control group. I.e. how long does a typical emplyoee stay with a company? Probably not much more than 15 months on average...

tptacek 10y ago

I'm not a recruiter (anymore?) and I will say that I think the advice in this post is pretty important. I've had two bad experiences with being tainted after accepting a counter, and the logic behind why that happens is extremely straightforward. Clearly, there's a lot of dramatic license built into the word "never" in the title (a less baity title would be "Be wary of counter-offers"). Clearly, there are employers that will make counters in good faith hoping to retain you for the long haul. But business is business, and many employers, even very good ones, aren't going to make irrational decisions just to be nice.

fecak 10y ago
I think it's important to differentiate what type of counter it is and whether or not it solves the problem reasonably. A counter can be a pay raise, new role/promotion, or even something like letting someone telecommute. Those are all very different scenarios, and the stereotypical "walks into managers office with shiny offer from competitor demanding more" may have less positive long-term results than the more common less aggressive approach.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I once accepted a counter that included a pay raise, a substantial equity grant, and had my requirements for role adjustments mostly met --- all offered entirely to prevent me from moving to a new job. I shouldn't have! Things were O.K. for about six months, and only then did it clear that I'd been sidelined --- after the company had put in motion its plans for post-me continuity. Basically: they bought themselves time, and used it to deal with the presumption that I would inevitably leave. The specific terms of a counter don't mean much. The problem is that declaring your intent to leave can (maybe: usually does?) mark you as a flight risk. Flight risks get managed differently. If what you value about your job is compensation, that might not matter! But if what you want is escalating levels of responsibility, being perceived as a flight risk is a real problem.
  - fecak 10y ago
    This anecdote is exactly the type of cautionary tale that recruiters use to scare candidates and dissuade counteroffer acceptance. You're a natural!

VertexRed 10y ago

I don't know about you people, but if I received a counter-offer which involved an unlimited amount of free snacks I'd take it.

ptero 10y ago

If a counter-offer (or the reason you interviewed with other companies) is about money, accepting it is IMO a bad idea -- the company wants to minimize the pain of your leaving now, not the pain of your leaving in general. If you want to change what you do (coding to management, UI to AI, etc.) and the management offers you good options to consider, this is likely to be a genuine desire to keep you working for a company in whatever capacity. In this case accepting it should not put you on a path to the door.

hota_mazi 10y ago

Anyone who gives you absolute advice like this one has a hidden agenda. Except me, right now.

jredwards 10y ago

Did anyone else find this article borderline incoherent?

LyalinDotCom 10y ago

I'm a bit surprised this thread is getting this much attention. Honestly there is no magic answer to stuff like this, it always "depends".

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

thraway_perfin 10y ago

The "never" bit seems like bad advice. Terrible advice, honestly. I've worked happily at one of the "big" tech companies. Without going too much into details, I ended up getting a really big offer from another one of the big guys (i.e., in the seven figure range over 4 years, obviously with the bulk of it being equity). I was really torn. I was happy at my job, but that's a large enough of money to make a material difference in the lives of my loved ones. And like a lot of people here, I value the happiness of my family over my own. I didn't expect my existing employer to do much. So I gave my boss an early heads up this was happening, partly because I thought there was a small chance there would, but mostly so I would leave on good terms. Again, long story short, they not only matched the offer but came over the top of it. I went home to think about, talked about it with my wife & decided the next day to accept the counteroffer. That was a few years ago. I've honestly been happy since then. I don't feel this was ever held over my head or held against me. (To the contrary, I was recently promoted.) When it comes to counteroffers, a lot of it comes down to two things: 1) why you were looking in the first place, and 2) how you handle things with your existing employer. Regarding (1) - if you were unhappy, money isn't going to fix that. Staying just because of money is dubious at best. Regarding (2) - the main thing is don't be an asshole. Nobody is going to hold you advocating for your own best interests. Senior execs know the game. They would do the same thing in your place (if they haven't already). If you're an asshole, well, nobody wants to keep an asshole in the first place. But if you're pragmatic & even–keeled, you don't damage the relationships (even if you stay or go).

Cyph0n 10y ago
That's amazing! Well done on pulling out off man :)

smileysteve 10y ago

> "I have seen researches showing that more than 90% of the employees who accepted a counter-offer are leaving the company after an average of 15 months." In an industry where the average tenure is about 23 months; this seems neither surprising nor alarming.

beefsack 10y ago

I accepted a counter-offer which contained a significant amount of equity, and has now paid itself off multiple times over. I feel you can't give black-and-white advice on this.

fbreduc 10y ago

Not very good advice, these things are always highly situational and any clear cut answer would prove ignorance

pugworthy 10y ago

Some counter offers are easy to reject. A while back I applied to another part of the company for a position that was a promotion, and got offered the position. My manager, who was notified (inner company), comes to me and says, "Hey, if I could get you the promotion, would you stay? Even though I don't think you deserve it?" "Mmm... no thanks."

atsaloli 10y ago

I accepted a counter offer as a senior sysadmin at my last job and then ended up getting promoted to Dir Ops. I never regretted accepting the counter offer, even though the recruiter tried to talk me out of it.

kardashian007 10y ago

To clarify: it may come off as expecting mind-reading if hypothetical employee doesn't raise deal-breaker Problem A through channels first. If all channels are exhausted, then sure, move along away from a shop that can't/won't remedy underlying issue/s to a more civilized place that tries harder to make the work community as enjoyable and productive as reasonably possible. Finally, two points: both avoid perpetual grass-is-always-greener-itis and there is an always-moving trajectory for both the organization and each contributor, best to leave at the right time to maximize effectiveness and rewards.

daniel_iversen 10y ago

I'd like to suggest a rule of thumb from the employer's/manager's side that I was given by a mentor once (and I've seen the consequences anecdotally both when I followed it and when I didn't); Just like the article suggests not to accept a counter offer I'd say don't ever GIVE a counter offer (or try to keep the employee resigning). Of course always treat your people well and try your best to resolve issues and keep on top of their aspirations and desires but when they've already made up their mind to resign and they actually resign rarely (in my limited experience) can anything good come from you persuading them to stay because: A) they'll likely leave anyway within 1-1.5 years B) they might never actually have left and they're using very poor/immoral negotiation tactics C) it sends a horrible sign to the other employees saying they (only) get ahead if they threaten to resign And you have to be pretty fil with whatever your convictions are here I believe. So in my view the article is right - never accept a counter offer (I did once and while it was a bit promotion it was a huge mistake) but also never give one!

thembones 10y ago
Giving counter-offers is just as bad as accepting, you're right. This has been written on as well, http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers

rickmak 10y ago

If a boss give counter offer without providing road map on solving your concern. I agree the counter offer should reject. But there is chance, counter offer can be change of department. Which can be different story. If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. But just don't want to hire a new one. Everyone know hiring is difficult. Hiring is boss problem.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> If just money raise, I think the don't really want to solve your problem. What if your problem is that you wanted more money?

csvarona 10y ago

It really depends on the reason you're leaving. For example: if you were leaving because of mismanagement, then a counter-offer without any promise for change in management will not be enough.

zxcvvcxz 10y ago

I will have to disagree with this on the following grounds: 1) As others have pointed out, look who's doing the suggesting. Recruiters profit from your movement between jobs, hence they will always encourage/justify it. This prioritizes their interests, not necessarily yours. 2) You were thinking of leaving, then the employer gave you a reason to stay. Sometimes life isn't worth overthinking: you got what you wanted through negotiation (your willingness to leave), so enjoy it! Now that's not to say things always go well with this scenario. A counter-offer is not something I would want to normally do as an employer. It sets a bad precident: if I value you as an employee and my cost of replacing you is very high, you can just threaten to leave an get an automatic salary bump. Furthermore, when word gets around (and it probably will...) my other employees might not be so happy that someone got an ad-hoc performance review. Now everyone wants their contract re-evaluated. It's tough, and not black-and-white.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

My father once received a pre-emptive counteroffer. Basically, he did his job well and took on steadily increasing responsibilities as the company expanded rapidly, and in five years he went from a minor role in a small business to a critical role in a large business. One day his bosses suddenly realized that their senior system administrator was working for peanuts and any of their competitors would love to have him. They gave him a 50% raise on the spot. He hadn't even been thinking about other work.

mgalka 10y ago

Interesting post, though am I the only one who finds it strange to see it upvoted so many times on hacker news.

dredmorbius 10y ago

Five letters: BATNA What is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement? In any negotiation, with any party, your strength lies in your ability to walk away. If a vendor isn't offering you the product, or features, or price, you want, then having the alternative to walk elsewhere gives you strength. It's what lies at the foundation of the concept of a competitive market (though there are other elements as well, many involving information access). Businesses, and recruiters, such as the one offering this exceptionally poor advice, have far more data, and far more experience than any given single worker in engaging in labour negotiations. Hell: It is their core competency. Accepting the terms of an employer or recruiter in engaging in the battle directly is the worst possible thing you can do. Which includes this still-born advice to never accept a counteroffer. Are there counteroffers you shouldn't accept? Yes. Are there counteroffers you should accept? Yes. You'll find discussion in this thread on both sets of circumstances. (A general guideline: if it's the money that's been what's making you unhappy at a given job, go for it. If it's been other matters, that is what you should be negotiating on, though sweetening the pot doesn't hurt either.) The degree of ignorance exhibited by far too many technologists on the concepts of negotiating, power, leverage, and advantage is vast. I include myself. I can only suggest: go out and start studying the literature, including Machiavelli, Hobbes, J.K. Galbraith's The Anatomy of Power, and books on sales and negotiation. I'm finding older works from the late 19th and early 20th centuries particularly informative -- there's much more openness about direct tactics, and a distinct lack of embarassment in discussing them. More recent material can be useful and will show additional tricks, and advances in psychology, but I find that the traditional insights themselves are quite telling. Michael O. Church has much to say on the inequalities, including overt blacklists, which exist within Silicon Valley and elsewhere, which may be illuminating: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fought-for/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fough... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti...

fecak 10y ago
I'm pretty sure the author of this story isn't a recruiter, no?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jrobichaud 10y ago

I once worked in a company where the only way to get a raise was to get a counter offer. Each year even the best people were getting raises lower than the cost of life increase. The employees were so unmotivated, all they wanted was to find another job. Don't take a counter offer, flee those kind of places.

enneff 10y ago

A better way of looking at this is to be honest with your employer about your happiness in your role. Feel like you're not paid enough? Not challenged? Difficulty with teammates or manager? Raise these issues. If you are not taken seriously, then you know you are in the wrong place, and can look for something else without even needing to consider entertaining a counter-offer.

losteverything 10y ago

Got called into SVP' office. "Oh Crap," I thought. Marched into secure Exec area. SVP:Is Joe Blow good? Me: yes. Critical SVP: why? Me: runs acqusition system. Only one that knows it. Smart too SVP: thanks. -- I left with my escort and called my boss. "What was that about?" said Joe quit and his salary request to stay needed Executive approval. So SVP asked to talk to someone who directs his work (me).

kdamken 10y ago
That's a cool story. It's nice that you were able to help a coworker like that.

robbiemitchell 10y ago

A note of agreement: The money is a symptom. Even if your current employer counteroffers, the fact that you got them to cough up the extra dough doesn't change the fact that they didn't value you enough to retain you with it in the first place. If money/title/growth/etc. are important, and you've made it clear to your manager sufficiently, and they still don't act: go. The counteroffer won't change the underlying dynamic, and its other symptoms will continue to manifest.

merpnderp 10y ago
It's not that they didn't value you, it's that you made an agreement to sell your services at a given price. If you no longer like the agreement let them know. Anyone worth working for won't have hard feelings that you've decided you're worth more. Labor is part of a market where people get to decide how much their labor is worth. Take full advantage of that, as employers certainly will.

alex-yo 10y ago

Yea, funny. I'm looking for a job now. The most funny thing is that I get no counter-offer. I always here (or rather read) "yes, we are impressed by your experience, it is really great, but you know, you wanted too much, we have lots of others who want much less". When I asked for a counter offer I get either no reply, or something like "We don't give counter offers at this moment, you wanted much above the average that we pay". And I wanted just about the same money I was earning in my previous job. From my perspective the job hunt is a one shot thing. I give some figure, they stop being interested. No negotiation, no counter-offer, no other things. So it seems like the market is not that good for programmers, or I'm just so unlucky.

Waterluvian 10y ago
I mean no insult by this: were you possibly paid more at your previous employer than the market thinks you're worth?
- UK-AL 10y ago
  There can be huge variations in the market.
mikekchar 10y ago
I believe wrt to this article, the counter offer they are talking about is a counter offer from your current employer, not a counter offer from an interview. But from someone who has done his fair share of hiring, I'll tell you that I almost never entertain someone who asks for a lot more than I'm willing to pay. The reason is that you are very likely to be unhappy with your salary. No matter what your performance is like, you are probably going to be asking for a top up soon -- probably with extra to make up for the perceived deficiency when starting. No matter what deal we strike, this is going to be a point of contention going forward. And while it might be uncouth to talk about it in these circles, if you are unhappy then you're going to complain to everybody around you about how little you get paid. If you are experienced and talented and worth a good salary, then you are likely already going to be paid a fair bit more than the average person on the team. So the result is that I've got an unhappy guy wandering the halls complaining about how ridiculously small his salary is, when it is already one of the highest on the team. And then, when someone else on the team comes in and says, "alex-yo is getting X more than me and I'm way better than him/her", I have the distinctly difficult conversation where I have to tell them, "No. alex-yo gets paid a lot more than you because he/she is more experienced and has more skills than you. Let me enumerate all of the situations where alex-yo is performing better than you." And then that person, despite potentially being educated about where they can improve, is likely pissed of at me. So then they'll go to you and say, "Geeze, I'm only making Y. I should be getting paid at least as much as you." And you will be going, "....." because you know as well as I do that this person is only doing half of what you do. At which point I have a bunch of guys pissed off at their salary, pissed off with me and pissed off with each other. Seriously, it's not worth it. So no, I'm not going counter your very high expectations with a low-ball offer. There are other candidates whose expectations are in line with mine. And even if you are worth the money, it won't be worth it for my team. Which is not to say that we shouldn't always be showcasing top performers like alex-yo and encouraging the team to adopt similarly successful behaviours. And it's not that we should not be rewarding people who succeed in getting to the next level. But I'm not about to start hitting hornet nests with sticks for no good reason.

known 10y ago

If you take the counter-offer you'll be dumped after the job is done :)

omahlama 10y ago

Accepting the counter offer may not be a great strategy, but listening to it is. When changing jobs the last time, my old employer offered a salary bump to keep me. When I told this to my new employer, they immediately offered to match the salary. I ended up making more money than I would have otherwise.

alkonaut 10y ago

I once was moving out of the city where I was employed, so naturally looked for opportunities where I was moving. The city I was moving to was larger and had nearly 50% higher salaries. When my boss realized I was moving, he offered me to work remotely. I said I had already accepted the new offer, and left. Boss said I was always welcome back if I changed my mind (The idea of a big raise never came up at this point). A year later, the old boss contacted me and offered me to work remotely, and matched the salary of the bigger city I was living in, so I signed back to the old company with a deal that was likely better than what I could have gotten had accepted to stay initially. Bottom line is: - Keep good relations with employers where you like working: - A good way of getting a raise might sometimes be leaving and then returning.

oneeyedpigeon 10y ago

I've had a counter-offer at each of the jobs I've resigned from. Neither got much beyond the stage of "Would you stay for more money?". The first, I gave my employer the courtesy of saying I would think on it overnight, although my mind was already up (but you never know). The second I judged not as serious an offer. Neither time I left was it about the money, anyway. It did make me curious. I think an alternative way to read it (as opposed to the "why didn't I get this sooner?" attitude from the article) is "why didn't I ask for a pay-rise sooner?". This has made me more confident in dealing with employers; I'm about to ask my current one for a rise and I think I'll get it. It's quite nice to leave it open-ended, too. If an employer dangles the promise of 'more money' in front of you, but you don't actually go into details, you can always fantasise that it was going to be twice as big as it actually was. That way, you'll probably aim higher in future than if you'd found out the full details.

alicelthwaite 10y ago

I'm not a recruiter and I completely agree. Never accept a counter offer. Having said this - I work in sales, and a lot depends on trust between you and the company when you work in that profession. It may be different for developers etc.

udev 10y ago

I don't know what triggered the author to write this, possibly a personal experience. But whatever it was, he seems convinced that he has seen the light, and even distilled the message to "Never accept a counter-offer", which is nothing but a loud, attention grabbing, media-optimized title, but also, ultimately too-general-to-be-useful type of advice. The text itself is lacking useful information, maybe with the exceptions of the link to the surveys. As I get older I observe how smart people tend to put in a large amount of work before they feel ready to disseminate their carefully created, validated, humble in scope, and very often valuable message. This is the opposite of that.

cloverich 10y ago

> When it’s all about a feeling, things are hardly going to change even with a great counteroffer, so staying in the same place because now you have a free public transport ticket is just an apathy. That feeling will stalk you forever, it will make the relationship between you and your employer worse and there will be no winning side. Does anyone have any personal stories about this -- having no hard / defensible reason other than not feeling right -- and leaving? How did it work out for you?

evo_9 10y ago

I accepted a counteroffer once and it ended up being a huge mistake. The company was struggling and they felt they couldn't lose me etc, it was near the end of the year and everyone was already upset because it was announced that we wouldn't receive end of year/xmas bonus'. After I accepted the counter-offer I was at a lunch xmas party for our team (around 15 of us) and one person said to 'thank god this isn't a going away lunch for rick (me).', to which everyone was like 'you were going to leave???'. I was the tech lead so this news hit the other devs hard... at some point i was chatting with a few different employees (non-devs) and they said to me 'so you had to go get another job to force them to give you a raise, good move', to which I just smiled and didn't know what to say back and finally threw out 'I suppose so'. The next work day - monday 12/24 - I'm working from home and I get a call from HR; they fired me over the phone on xmas-eve, apparently the 3 employees I had the late conversation with went to HR and claimed I was bragging about the raise and that the only way to get a raise at the company was to get another job and threaten to leave. No amount of explaining that's not happened would appease them, and as they put it they had '3 peoples word against just you'. So yeah I will never accept a count-offer again!

stuxnet79 10y ago
Bummer, what a terrible outcome. This is why I always mind my business and abide by the 'your co-workers are not your friends' dictum.

Shivetya 10y ago

just remember that not everything is about earning more money, sometimes the best career moves may involve making less and with reduced stress and angst

UseStrict 10y ago

I accepted a counteroffer with mixed results. I was given an offer at a company in Europe which pretty closely matched my salary and perks. It came with a small pay bump but most importantly, extra vacation time and a solid relocation bonus. I had submitted notice with my current employer, who gave me a counteroffer matching the money, increasing my holidays and giving me the ability to work remotely from wherever I chose. I accepted the counteroffer because I still liked the company I work for and they now were meeting my other requirements. About 6 months later I was planning my relocation when I was notified by HR that they would not be fulfilling that part of my contract citing nothing but "legal requirements." I have been intensely bitter towards them ever since.

justin66 10y ago
You still work for them?!?

johnward 10y ago

I've taken 3 counter offers at the same company. Will probably do it again if my current job search goes well. In a company like mine you can't just ask for a raise and expect to get it. However, if a key resource resigns wheels start turning. All the sudden they can give significant increases. Otherwise you grind it out year after year hoping for 3% but some people get nothing. I'm going to hate my life no matter the job. So I will work for the highest bidder or most leave time.