8 ms·

Could have been child porn.

by 1ris 10y ago

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
An almost horrible, related story: When I was in middle school and the internet was still fairly new (we had just gotten it) a classmate of mine hatched a terrible plan to get rid of a teacher he hated. He waited until the teacher was out sick one day then during the substitute's typical teaching pattern of having us "read these 3 chapters, answer questions then keep your head down until class is over" he jumped on the teacher's computer. After reassuring the substitute that he was allowed to he tried desperately to find child porn. His plan was to save it into semi hidden folders onto the computer then later on turn the teacher in for having child porn. Fortunately this classmate wasn't able to find any and eventually gave up. But I've always remembered his plan. It's terrifyingly believable that if someone managed to get into your computer and download child porn, there is likely little recourse or way to prove you did not do it.
- mixedbit 10y ago
  In this case such prove should be possible. Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. The dates would make it easy to associate this accident with your class and then, after asking a few questions, with your classmate.
  - breakingcups 10y ago
    Those dates can easily be altered by someone knowledgeable though.
    - dangero 10y ago
      And easily sold to a jury as proof positive after they were altered. I've feared for a lot time that this type of thing is currently in the government arsenal of threats and weapons.
  - lutusp 10y ago
    > Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. But file creation dates are easily changed by a skilled hacker.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      And also by the teacher. So maybe he altered them? That's what the DA would sell to the jury...
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. And what if the teacher was not on leave or sick, but just in the school's cafeteria, or briefly in another class, etc? Good luck proving anything with the dates, especially after several months, where nobody remembers who was where at that random day in the past.
    - snowwrestler 10y ago
      This is basic criminal defense stuff, actually. "What time did you go to the cafeteria? Did anyone else see you there?" Then talk to the people who he says saw him. Are there any cameras in the school that might have captured his visit to the cafeteria? Review the footage. How did he pay for his food? Did that create a record that can establish a time and location? Are there any witnesses who saw the kid sit down at the computer? Like the substitute teacher, for instance? None of this is unique to child porn cases. Establishing or disputing time and location is basic trial strategy. All a defendant has to do is create reasonable doubt, not conclusively prove innocence.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >This is basic criminal defense stuff, actually. "What time did you go to the cafeteria? Did anyone else see you there?" Then talk to the people who he says saw him. And they'd remember they saw him after 6 months, and even more so that they saw him leave in 15:20 instead of 15:10, because? >None of this is unique to child porn cases. No, but all this make "I didn't change them because filestamps in file are in an hour I wasn't there" difficult. Heck, the teacher himself will probably not remember where he was at the time the timestamps show...
  - jeffmould 10y ago
    The real problem is that the minute it was found the teacher would probably be fired, or at a minimum put on administrative leave, the media would catch word of it and publicly tarnish him, parents would demand swift action, and before the investigation even had a chance to get going the guy's life would be ruined. In the end, even if he was found innocent, the lasting damage would done.
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    Honestly, even if you can prove you were framed 100% and are found not guilty, the media has likely already run several stories regarding the teacher who's computer had child porn on it. The school will be forced to fire them. The school board will likely bar them from ever working in another school in that city again. When you Google that person's name the top categories will likely be regarding their trial / arrest. Once an accusation of child pornography (creation or possession) is put out there if any of it gets exposed to the public by the way of the media (and it will) that person's life is seriously ruined even without prison time. The problem seems to get worse, too and I certainly don't have any good ideas regarding it. Except maybe re-tooling a new search engine that somehow can take context / validity into account but that's exceptionally difficult to do. And even then if someone gets their news or information from any other source you're still screwed.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  Aren't CP laws set so that it doesn't really matter if you did it, the possession by itself is a crime, no need to prove intent?
  - Arnt 10y ago
    There are 50-60 parents in any given class. A fair number of them can be expected to make trouble no matter what the police does.
  - toomanybeersies 10y ago
    Yes, and every image is a separate charge. Because think of the children. Possession and distribution of child pornography is perfectly legal if you're the FBI though.
    - jsjohnst 10y ago
      There's a further nuance there as well. Say you work for a site that accepts UGC images (like a major social network for example). It's required that you have a team who works with law enforcement to handle investigations / takedown / preservation. Anyone who works for said team unfortunately thus has to see those images and have them, at least temporarily, on their machine, but there is zero legal precedent to protect them. It's a legal grey area and thus I have and continue to recommend anyone in such position to refuse to risk it.
      - wbl 10y ago
        You have the defense of "we are specifically required by law enforcement to do this" which is pretty strong. It's no different from a locksmith being asked by a cop to break into someplace the cop needs to be.
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        I think the psychological trauma would be a much bigger concern for most than some vague legal threat.
thecatspaw 10y ago
that reminds me of randomRambo's story. On stream he was searching for a file on his computer, and a file with a name containing CP. Long story short, police was called, "he molests his kid on stream" (totally untrue), police came, arrested him on stream. took more than half a year for him to get declared innocent. here is him talking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdFOpRTvyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdFOpRTvyU
- draugadrotten 10y ago
  > took more than half a year for him to get declared innocent. Even if declared innocent, being charged on suspicion of possession of such porn is a life-long stigma that never wears off. For example, it will be impossible for a foreign citizen to obtain a US 'ESTA' visa waiver after such suspicions.

Could have been child porn.

by 1ris 10y ago

Could have been child porn.

An almost horrible, related story: When I was in middle school and the internet was still fairly new (we had just gotten it) a classmate of mine hatched a terrible plan to get rid of a teacher he hated. He waited until the teacher was out sick one day then during the substitute's typical teaching pattern of having us "read these 3 chapters, answer questions then keep your head down until class is over" he jumped on the teacher's computer. After reassuring the substitute that he was allowed to he tried desperately to find child porn. His plan was to save it into semi hidden folders onto the computer then later on turn the teacher in for having child porn. Fortunately this classmate wasn't able to find any and eventually gave up. But I've always remembered his plan. It's terrifyingly believable that if someone managed to get into your computer and download child porn, there is likely little recourse or way to prove you did not do it.

mixedbit 10y ago
In this case such prove should be possible. Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. The dates would make it easy to associate this accident with your class and then, after asking a few questions, with your classmate.
- breakingcups 10y ago
  Those dates can easily be altered by someone knowledgeable though.
  - dangero 10y ago
    And easily sold to a jury as proof positive after they were altered. I've feared for a lot time that this type of thing is currently in the government arsenal of threats and weapons.
- lutusp 10y ago
  > Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. But file creation dates are easily changed by a skilled hacker.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    And also by the teacher. So maybe he altered them? That's what the DA would sell to the jury...
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Files creation dates would show that the files were downloaded when the teacher was absent. And what if the teacher was not on leave or sick, but just in the school's cafeteria, or briefly in another class, etc? Good luck proving anything with the dates, especially after several months, where nobody remembers who was where at that random day in the past.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    This is basic criminal defense stuff, actually. "What time did you go to the cafeteria? Did anyone else see you there?" Then talk to the people who he says saw him. Are there any cameras in the school that might have captured his visit to the cafeteria? Review the footage. How did he pay for his food? Did that create a record that can establish a time and location? Are there any witnesses who saw the kid sit down at the computer? Like the substitute teacher, for instance? None of this is unique to child porn cases. Establishing or disputing time and location is basic trial strategy. All a defendant has to do is create reasonable doubt, not conclusively prove innocence.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >This is basic criminal defense stuff, actually. "What time did you go to the cafeteria? Did anyone else see you there?" Then talk to the people who he says saw him. And they'd remember they saw him after 6 months, and even more so that they saw him leave in 15:20 instead of 15:10, because? >None of this is unique to child porn cases. No, but all this make "I didn't change them because filestamps in file are in an hour I wasn't there" difficult. Heck, the teacher himself will probably not remember where he was at the time the timestamps show...
- jeffmould 10y ago
  The real problem is that the minute it was found the teacher would probably be fired, or at a minimum put on administrative leave, the media would catch word of it and publicly tarnish him, parents would demand swift action, and before the investigation even had a chance to get going the guy's life would be ruined. In the end, even if he was found innocent, the lasting damage would done.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Honestly, even if you can prove you were framed 100% and are found not guilty, the media has likely already run several stories regarding the teacher who's computer had child porn on it. The school will be forced to fire them. The school board will likely bar them from ever working in another school in that city again. When you Google that person's name the top categories will likely be regarding their trial / arrest. Once an accusation of child pornography (creation or possession) is put out there if any of it gets exposed to the public by the way of the media (and it will) that person's life is seriously ruined even without prison time. The problem seems to get worse, too and I certainly don't have any good ideas regarding it. Except maybe re-tooling a new search engine that somehow can take context / validity into account but that's exceptionally difficult to do. And even then if someone gets their news or information from any other source you're still screwed.
PeterisP 10y ago
Aren't CP laws set so that it doesn't really matter if you did it, the possession by itself is a crime, no need to prove intent?
- Arnt 10y ago
  There are 50-60 parents in any given class. A fair number of them can be expected to make trouble no matter what the police does.
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  Yes, and every image is a separate charge. Because think of the children. Possession and distribution of child pornography is perfectly legal if you're the FBI though.
  - jsjohnst 10y ago
    There's a further nuance there as well. Say you work for a site that accepts UGC images (like a major social network for example). It's required that you have a team who works with law enforcement to handle investigations / takedown / preservation. Anyone who works for said team unfortunately thus has to see those images and have them, at least temporarily, on their machine, but there is zero legal precedent to protect them. It's a legal grey area and thus I have and continue to recommend anyone in such position to refuse to risk it.
    - wbl 10y ago
      You have the defense of "we are specifically required by law enforcement to do this" which is pretty strong. It's no different from a locksmith being asked by a cop to break into someplace the cop needs to be.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      I think the psychological trauma would be a much bigger concern for most than some vague legal threat.

thecatspaw 10y ago

that reminds me of randomRambo's story. On stream he was searching for a file on his computer, and a file with a name containing CP. Long story short, police was called, "he molests his kid on stream" (totally untrue), police came, arrested him on stream. took more than half a year for him to get declared innocent. here is him talking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdFOpRTvyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdFOpRTvyU

draugadrotten 10y ago
> took more than half a year for him to get declared innocent. Even if declared innocent, being charged on suspicion of possession of such porn is a life-long stigma that never wears off. For example, it will be impossible for a foreign citizen to obtain a US 'ESTA' visa waiver after such suspicions.