3 ms·

It's always a little surprising when you're talking with someone from Europe and they seem to have pretty reasonable views about the world and then somebody bri

It's always a little surprising when you're talking with someone from Europe and they seem to have pretty reasonable views about the world and then somebody brings up the Roma and hoo boy the mask comes off.

hubert123 10y ago
I know this is hard to believe but there are actually groups of people who are worse than other groups of people. I know, it boggles the mind sometimes.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  The difference is that bigots think you mean whichever "they" is on the menu, and the rest of us think you're being ironically self-referential.
  - hubert123 10y ago
    I have no idea what you just said or meant.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  It's a cultural difference. Roma have all the freedom and obligation of adjusting their culture and fitting in, but they don't do it, do they? You can't change your skin color and is not responsible for it and should wear it proudly, but you can definitely fix your culture, AND THEN wear it proudly.
- blacksmith_tb 10y ago
  Hmm, not sure I can agree, but for the sake of argument, I assume that you don't think every member of said group is bad? Or every member of a 'better' group is good? That would be a very bold argument, which would require remarkable proof.
  - corysama 10y ago
    Any time any person on the internet says "this group has this property" and they are not talking about math or other pure-logic topic, you can and should assume they do not mean literally "absolutely every member of this group". This statement included. It would a very bold argument that no one makes, but many people frequently counter-argue against. It's extremely common to see people get themselves worked up arguing fervently against claims no one made. Keeping this rule in mind will save you and everyone else in the discussions from a long, frustrating, pointless arguments from extremes and semantic nitpicking.
M_Grey 10y ago
The same is often true of any bigot; they're not usually the frothing skinheads so many seem to expect. I have a friend who's in his late 60's, extremely bright man, friendly, funny, and I would have said not racist. Then one day after I've gotten to really know him, and we're driving to a restaurant and the conversation turned to (then first term) Pres. Obama. He said something that I'll never forget, because it was said without a hint of malice, almost sad regret. "You know those jungle-bunnies aren't like you and me." That's what he really thought. I've seen him interact with people of all races and he's open and friendly and sociable, but at the end of the day, that's how he sees black people. In my experience, a lot of bigotry is just that; you get to know someone to the point where they feel comfortable with you, and then you find out what they really think of people. The exception of course is that when "everyone knows" something, you don't even need to get to know that person well. In large swathes of the world, and Europe in particular, "Everyone knows all about" the Roma. Dig a bit deeper and they "know all about" the Jews.
- ddorian43 10y ago
  That's with ~most old people (not just the black thing, but also similar stuff that you have to create a new hn account in fear of downvotes).
- nicolas_t 10y ago
  While I've seen a lot of racism against Romas and Muslims, it seems to me that at least in France they're not racist against Jews... Not that that excuses racism whatsoever, just an observation that the new hated minority that's used as scapegoat is not the Jews anymore but instead the Muslims. But, yes I've heard equally horrifying things from people who seem otherwise smart and friendly. Just go to Japan and listen to when people talk about black people... Go to Europe or the US and listen to what people say about muslims... Racism is everywhere and it's not only frothing skinheads, it's normal respectable members of the society and that's what scary. As to the Roma, well, I haven't had much experience but there was a Roma kid in school for a few months and I got along well with him... So, at least anecdote-wise on my side, I haven't had bad experience with Romas. Now, it's been my experience that while different groups have differences in cultures, the difference between individuals of a given group is bigger than the cultural differences due to belonging to a given group. So, for example, after living in both Japan and China for a while, I have certain heuristics that let me expect certain behaviours from a Japanese person compared to a Chinese person. But, those are heuristics, they are not absolute truths and they are often wrong for a given person. So, even if Japanese people tend to be more polite than Chinese people, I've met quite a few rude people in Japan and I've met quite a few very polite people in China...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
klodolph 10y ago
s/Europe/Hacker News/g
MrMullen 10y ago
Nothing sends a conversation down the path of, "I hate Hitler, but he did do a couple of things right", like when you bring up the Roma. My mom and dad got harassed by some Roma in Spain and my dad, as he puts it, might have just killed one of them if they did not let go of my mother. I think that is only time in my life I have heard my dad speak of doing any harm to another human being.
tlogan 10y ago
So very true. Sadly that is also true for San Francisco :( And Roma conversation is just easy way to get that out. The same is true for feeling about Jews, Arabs, Indians, Asians, Mexicans and African-Americans. You just need to have enough of white crowd and enough of beer. In short we are all bigots and racists by default. I accept that I'm bigot and I'm working hard not to be. And that is not easy.
- barking 10y ago
  It sounds like your saying that racism is a white thing. Try dating cross racially in the UK and you'll pretty quickly be disabused of that notion.
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    Spoiler: Honor killings rarely affect white daughters.
DavidHm 10y ago
Have you ever thought that if all these reasonable people from Europe have the same opinion about the Roma, then maybe there's some reasonable facts that you are not aware of?
ralfd 10y ago
In Germany a Roma-Clan got infamous three years ago for the "Enkeltrick". Around a hundred related people, cousins and so, sieved through telephone books and phoned people with old-fashioned names. They also used division of labor, some people just boringly searched for targets and then gave the phone numbers to sweet talkers and con artists. When a senile person answered, the Roma claimed they were their grandkid and needed lots of money! There is a medical emergency! Or a gangster will do harm if they don't pay debt! Help me grandma! The old people were then talked into getting their live savings from under the pillow/bank and hand it over. They stole millions by ruining people and last year the head of the clan was finally caught in Poland. He pulled that of so long and eluded police because of parallel structure. A morality which is beholden to the family and clan, not to the outsider community.
rospaya 10y ago
It's always a difficult subject and I feel bad if I'm ever called a racist, but there's no rational way for me to think counter to the things I saw. I'm absolutely 100% sure I saw something many times. My friends did, my neighbours, people online. I see stats, racks of books and legions of NGO's working on it. And then some guy on HN/reddit calls me a racist and calls it a day. Call me out when I advocate expulsion, forced education or murder, don't call me out when I say there's a problem and we all need to work on it together.
int_19h 10y ago
The reason why this is the case is that most people who live in Europe in the vicinity of traditional Roma communities have experience that reinforces those biases. Say, being pickpocketed, or being spat at after you refuse to give money to a beggar. The biases themselves may well be overgeneralized and racist in nature, but the experience is quite real, I assure you. And I don't see any solution to the discrimination problem that doesn't involve fixing that experience.
viraptor 10y ago
I think you're missing the context of what people are complaining about. If it's actually the Roma people, I agree that's just racist. But usually what they mean is the culture Rome people live in. Do you think it's unreasonable view that kids should receive education? That young girls should not be given away into arranged marriages? That wifes and children should not be sent out to beg and steal in city centres? That the community is sometimes happy to receive support, but doesn't want to give back to the surrounding society? If there are whole mini-towns with communities behaving that way and teaching that to their kids, I'm against it, and don't think that unreasonable. It doesn't matter who they identify as. Roma people can't change who they are. But they can change how they live.

hubert123 10y ago

I know this is hard to believe but there are actually groups of people who are worse than other groups of people. I know, it boggles the mind sometimes.

M_Grey 10y ago
The difference is that bigots think you mean whichever "they" is on the menu, and the rest of us think you're being ironically self-referential.
- hubert123 10y ago
  I have no idea what you just said or meant.
guard-of-terra 10y ago
It's a cultural difference. Roma have all the freedom and obligation of adjusting their culture and fitting in, but they don't do it, do they? You can't change your skin color and is not responsible for it and should wear it proudly, but you can definitely fix your culture, AND THEN wear it proudly.
blacksmith_tb 10y ago
Hmm, not sure I can agree, but for the sake of argument, I assume that you don't think every member of said group is bad? Or every member of a 'better' group is good? That would be a very bold argument, which would require remarkable proof.
- corysama 10y ago
  Any time any person on the internet says "this group has this property" and they are not talking about math or other pure-logic topic, you can and should assume they do not mean literally "absolutely every member of this group". This statement included. It would a very bold argument that no one makes, but many people frequently counter-argue against. It's extremely common to see people get themselves worked up arguing fervently against claims no one made. Keeping this rule in mind will save you and everyone else in the discussions from a long, frustrating, pointless arguments from extremes and semantic nitpicking.

M_Grey 10y ago

The same is often true of any bigot; they're not usually the frothing skinheads so many seem to expect. I have a friend who's in his late 60's, extremely bright man, friendly, funny, and I would have said not racist. Then one day after I've gotten to really know him, and we're driving to a restaurant and the conversation turned to (then first term) Pres. Obama. He said something that I'll never forget, because it was said without a hint of malice, almost sad regret. "You know those jungle-bunnies aren't like you and me." That's what he really thought. I've seen him interact with people of all races and he's open and friendly and sociable, but at the end of the day, that's how he sees black people. In my experience, a lot of bigotry is just that; you get to know someone to the point where they feel comfortable with you, and then you find out what they really think of people. The exception of course is that when "everyone knows" something, you don't even need to get to know that person well. In large swathes of the world, and Europe in particular, "Everyone knows all about" the Roma. Dig a bit deeper and they "know all about" the Jews.

ddorian43 10y ago
That's with ~most old people (not just the black thing, but also similar stuff that you have to create a new hn account in fear of downvotes).
nicolas_t 10y ago
While I've seen a lot of racism against Romas and Muslims, it seems to me that at least in France they're not racist against Jews... Not that that excuses racism whatsoever, just an observation that the new hated minority that's used as scapegoat is not the Jews anymore but instead the Muslims. But, yes I've heard equally horrifying things from people who seem otherwise smart and friendly. Just go to Japan and listen to when people talk about black people... Go to Europe or the US and listen to what people say about muslims... Racism is everywhere and it's not only frothing skinheads, it's normal respectable members of the society and that's what scary. As to the Roma, well, I haven't had much experience but there was a Roma kid in school for a few months and I got along well with him... So, at least anecdote-wise on my side, I haven't had bad experience with Romas. Now, it's been my experience that while different groups have differences in cultures, the difference between individuals of a given group is bigger than the cultural differences due to belonging to a given group. So, for example, after living in both Japan and China for a while, I have certain heuristics that let me expect certain behaviours from a Japanese person compared to a Chinese person. But, those are heuristics, they are not absolute truths and they are often wrong for a given person. So, even if Japanese people tend to be more polite than Chinese people, I've met quite a few rude people in Japan and I've met quite a few very polite people in China...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

klodolph 10y ago

s/Europe/Hacker News/g

MrMullen 10y ago

Nothing sends a conversation down the path of, "I hate Hitler, but he did do a couple of things right", like when you bring up the Roma. My mom and dad got harassed by some Roma in Spain and my dad, as he puts it, might have just killed one of them if they did not let go of my mother. I think that is only time in my life I have heard my dad speak of doing any harm to another human being.

tlogan 10y ago

So very true. Sadly that is also true for San Francisco :( And Roma conversation is just easy way to get that out. The same is true for feeling about Jews, Arabs, Indians, Asians, Mexicans and African-Americans. You just need to have enough of white crowd and enough of beer. In short we are all bigots and racists by default. I accept that I'm bigot and I'm working hard not to be. And that is not easy.

barking 10y ago
It sounds like your saying that racism is a white thing. Try dating cross racially in the UK and you'll pretty quickly be disabused of that notion.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  Spoiler: Honor killings rarely affect white daughters.

DavidHm 10y ago

Have you ever thought that if all these reasonable people from Europe have the same opinion about the Roma, then maybe there's some reasonable facts that you are not aware of?

ralfd 10y ago

In Germany a Roma-Clan got infamous three years ago for the "Enkeltrick". Around a hundred related people, cousins and so, sieved through telephone books and phoned people with old-fashioned names. They also used division of labor, some people just boringly searched for targets and then gave the phone numbers to sweet talkers and con artists. When a senile person answered, the Roma claimed they were their grandkid and needed lots of money! There is a medical emergency! Or a gangster will do harm if they don't pay debt! Help me grandma! The old people were then talked into getting their live savings from under the pillow/bank and hand it over. They stole millions by ruining people and last year the head of the clan was finally caught in Poland. He pulled that of so long and eluded police because of parallel structure. A morality which is beholden to the family and clan, not to the outsider community.

rospaya 10y ago

It's always a difficult subject and I feel bad if I'm ever called a racist, but there's no rational way for me to think counter to the things I saw. I'm absolutely 100% sure I saw something many times. My friends did, my neighbours, people online. I see stats, racks of books and legions of NGO's working on it. And then some guy on HN/reddit calls me a racist and calls it a day. Call me out when I advocate expulsion, forced education or murder, don't call me out when I say there's a problem and we all need to work on it together.

int_19h 10y ago

The reason why this is the case is that most people who live in Europe in the vicinity of traditional Roma communities have experience that reinforces those biases. Say, being pickpocketed, or being spat at after you refuse to give money to a beggar. The biases themselves may well be overgeneralized and racist in nature, but the experience is quite real, I assure you. And I don't see any solution to the discrimination problem that doesn't involve fixing that experience.

viraptor 10y ago

I think you're missing the context of what people are complaining about. If it's actually the Roma people, I agree that's just racist. But usually what they mean is the culture Rome people live in. Do you think it's unreasonable view that kids should receive education? That young girls should not be given away into arranged marriages? That wifes and children should not be sent out to beg and steal in city centres? That the community is sometimes happy to receive support, but doesn't want to give back to the surrounding society? If there are whole mini-towns with communities behaving that way and teaching that to their kids, I'm against it, and don't think that unreasonable. It doesn't matter who they identify as. Roma people can't change who they are. But they can change how they live.