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Roma Gypsies flee to California after Europe turns more hostile

64 points by open-source-ux 10y ago

MrBuddyCasino 10y ago
Not sure why the downvotes. Feel free to visit Roma housings provided for those in need in northrine-westfalia, and witness behaviour that can only be described as anti social. Like literally throwing trash out the window, social security fraud, theft, begging and overt hostility to "intruders. But feel free to click that downvote button, the warm fuzz of perceived moral superiority feels great doesn't it?
- omginternets 10y ago
  You forgot "threatening to kill their children when police try to make arrests at camp". I leave it as an exercise to any incredulous reader to look this shit up. People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma. What's worrying (to me) is that these do-gooders don't seem to realize that their behavior is pushing otherwise moderate people to the far right. The far right is literally the only political arena that recognizes that such a problem exists.
  - girvo 10y ago
    > People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma The issue with that sort of reasoning is that it is word-for-word exactly what was said about Black people... and is still said by some. So people have a pretty understandable reaction to it, regardless of the merit of it within a particular context.
    - omginternets 10y ago
      Yes, and I can totally understand that. That's the hard thing when discussing Roma: they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The other thing that makes it difficult is that they objectively have suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime, so it's easy to start accusing critics of supporting such policies. In my experience, this is rarely the case, and doing so only lends legitimacy to far-right political groups. That said, it's possible to be critical of a clear and consistent pattern of behavior without calling for violence.
      - fennecfoxen 10y ago
        > they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance and their typical clothing. Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a "gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to modern prosperity. And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something. So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.
        bertil 10y ago
        I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.
- openasocket 10y ago
  What does this have to do with the article? The article is about Roma who say they have had "camps demolished, businesses firebombed, neighborhoods walled off and children beaten" in Europe seeking asylum in the US. You're just making counter accusations about the Roma. It sounds like you are justifying the firebombings and beatings. Are you?
  - bertil 10y ago
    The beatings and firebombing were by fellow Romas.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      The full sentence is: "A resurgence of neo-Nazism from Romania to Italy has seen their camps demolished, businesses firebombed, neighborhoods walled off and children beaten." Where did you get that the Roma were firebombing other Roma? There's certainly nothing in the article that suggests that.
      - bertil 10y ago
        After I was beaten down by a group of Romas, I made a declaration of theft at the Police station. The officers there explained what they had been living after only three months of Roma invasion: 100% of street crimes, larceny, house and flat theft were directly attributed (with testimony, video) to Romas. There was a fire at one of the camps and Romas went to the press to clamour about racism and hatred, but when the Police asked to investigate, the Roma leaders refused access. The Police did anyway, and in addition to children hidden from the administration, criminally insalubrious conditions, and a ton of stolen equipment, they realised there were a feud with another nearby camp. They went there, and the leader there promised to “Burn them to the ground, for good this time”. After that, they took testimonies from Romas with a grain of salt.
        openasocket 10y ago
        Do you have a source for this? A new article or something?
barking 10y ago
The first time I ever saw a roma it was a young lady at the checkout in front of me who was obviously just learning how to do the change of a fifty swindle. Her trainer appeared from nowhere and rescued her by interrupting and asking some dumbass question about some item he'd pulled off a shelf and then they both left
- wnoise 10y ago
  The first time you recognized one, maybe. And why are you certain she was Roma?
  - barking 10y ago
    Pretty certain and I met a few after through my work. She was strikingly pretty in the roma way (like a very fair Indian person) and was dressed in the roma style. Our town of 20,000 people went from zero to several hundred roma at that time.
- deleted 10y ago
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GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
It's always a little surprising when you're talking with someone from Europe and they seem to have pretty reasonable views about the world and then somebody brings up the Roma and hoo boy the mask comes off.
- hubert123 10y ago
  I know this is hard to believe but there are actually groups of people who are worse than other groups of people. I know, it boggles the mind sometimes.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    The difference is that bigots think you mean whichever "they" is on the menu, and the rest of us think you're being ironically self-referential.
    - hubert123 10y ago
      I have no idea what you just said or meant.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    It's a cultural difference. Roma have all the freedom and obligation of adjusting their culture and fitting in, but they don't do it, do they? You can't change your skin color and is not responsible for it and should wear it proudly, but you can definitely fix your culture, AND THEN wear it proudly.
  - blacksmith_tb 10y ago
    Hmm, not sure I can agree, but for the sake of argument, I assume that you don't think every member of said group is bad? Or every member of a 'better' group is good? That would be a very bold argument, which would require remarkable proof.
    - corysama 10y ago
M_Grey 10y ago
I hate to say it, but if I were one of the groups that had a hard time in Europe circa the 1940's, I'd be packing my bags too. There's a reason that so many Jews got the hell out of France in the last few years. It might be paranoid, but we've all seen how far the alternative gets you.
- welanes 10y ago
  > There's a reason that so many Jews got the hell out of France in the last few years. Do tell us that reason.
  - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
    France has had a rising antisemetic sentiment along with the defacing of Jewish cultural sites, along with a sharp increas (think double) over the last year or two of hate crime against Jews. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-might-not-have-any-jews-in-the-future-and-h/ http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-might-n...
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      What do you think, what specific demographic group in france is most visible in antisemitic sentiment, defacing of Jewish cultural sites and hate crime against Jews?
      - Mao_Zedang 10y ago
        As a Jew myself the majority of modern antisemitism I see is from Muslims.
        sliverstorm 10y ago
        Curious, do you see that as truly antisemitism, or anti-non-muslim-ism? I frequently see misanthropy or xenophobia masquerading behind specific racist/sexist/theist/etc slurs.
guard-of-terra 10y ago
“There’s a lot of prejudice against Roma in almost every country in Europe,” For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna railway station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the machines or harrass it off passengers. Can I call this not prejudice but actually a mature judice? 'cause I've never seen anybody else do it. You get to have prejudices when you behave like that.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna railway station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the machines or harrass it off passengers. I've directly witnessed lots of white Americans do lots of horrible things, in many cases horrible things I've never witnessed people of other ethnic backgrounds doing. If I then decide that white Americans as a whole are horrible people who do those horrible things, its still prejudice -- I am prejudging individuals based not on nothing but their ethnic similarity to people I've witnessed doing bad things.
  - ddorian43 10y ago
    There are patterns on Roma people. They don't integrate locally, that's why they're all the same. The same thing is by Albanians who emigrate, if they keep their local culture they mostly ~suck (really, ask ANY Albanian). ~Most Roma people don't integrate therefore they suck (their original culture does). Americans integrate locally (redneck, bible belt, etc) and are different between states/cities/etc.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously, those countries definitely have rights to kick them out and prevent any more americans from coming.
    - estebank 10y ago
      > If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously,(...) I believe you just described a good chunk of American tourists. :) And a good chunk of all people, everywhere, for that matter.
orf 10y ago
So I really try not to be judgemental and I feel a bit bad saying this, but I don't have a single good thing to say about Gypsies and I've never met someone who has. At least about the ones you see in the UK. They are a huge problem in the city where I went to University, constantly draining police resources to deal with petty crime. Everyone I've talked to in front of house roles absolutely hated dealing with them as well, if not stealing they always seem to find hair in something and so get a refund or a discount. Where I grew up they caused huge problems when they moved camping ground, draining council resources and never clearing up after themselves. They left huge piles of litter in the most beautiful countryside spots. There is an interesting documentary about UK Gypsies called 'Big Fat Gypsy Weddings', it's worth a watch if you're interested in that sort of thing. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings Edit: And I don't like the 'well you must be racist if you think this' comments here.
- MrMullen 10y ago
  Won't these be "Travelers" and not Roma?
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    There are around 200,000 migrant Roma in the UK, with another 200-300,000 people who meet the broader Council of Europe definition of "Roma". Irish travellers are the main other itinerant group; estimates suggest that there are around 25,000 Irish travellers in the UK. All of this data is fairly vague, because itinerant people are inherently difficult to survey. There is only a single census category for "gypsy/traveller", so that's of little help. Many indigenous British travellers do not identify themselves as being Roma and have unclear origins, further complicating the situation. http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/Migrant_Roma_in_the_UK_final_report_October_2013.pdf http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/... http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > Edit: And I don't like the 'well you must be racist if you think this' comments here. You've raised the issue in a well-reasoned manner which largely avoids being gratuitous. Your discomfort at saying this suggests that you would otherwise prefer to view the Roma as decent people, and there is little to make one doubt you'd be happy to afford them the rights and dignities which all of mankind deserve. Others here have presented the case in far nastier ways and their comments have gotten the predictable flag / kill treatment.
klodolph 10y ago
I'm going to take the moral stance here that even if you actually are making a factually correct statement of fact it is wrong to make prejudiced / racist comments. "Roma are __", "black people are __", "Mexicans are __", it looks like you're playing a racist version of mad libs to the wide-eyed people listening to your hate. And no, I don't give a damn about your personal experiences with ethnic group X, Y, or Z. Let's keep it civil, folks.
- orf 10y ago
  I'm not sure that follows. But nice to know you don't listen either facts or opinions I guess?
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  Come again? If I am to say, "Elbonians are statistically 2000% more likely to be five foot three", I am making a racist comment?
  - khedoros 10y ago
    I think it's more like if I said "90% of Narnians are bankers and bankers statistically give less to charity; here's the data supporting each statement" or "Kilrathi are statistically 47% more likely than Dothraki to end up in jail", they may be factually-supported statements, but they can be reasonably interpreted as having deeper meanings than just the numbers. The facts themselves aren't racist, but the things I'm expecting the reader to infer from them are.
  - klodolph 10y ago
    Think of a Venn diagram, with one circle being "correct statements of fact" and another circle being "racist comments". The two circles intersect, that is all, and my claim is that "I am making a statement of fact" is not sufficient to claim "I am doing nothing morally wrong".
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      The truth is supposed to be a perfect defense against charges of slander or libel.
tetrep 10y ago
> “The stereotypes of them panhandling and engaging in petty thievery just stir up these prejudices.” > In Sweden, politicians are debating whether to ban begging, a tactic critics say targets Roma. So, the stereotypes are true? From what I can tell, the Roma have a distinct way of life that they're seeking out, making them a bit different than socioeconomically transient groups that are struggling to integrate and succeed (i.e. various influxes of immigrants at different stages of US history).
- deleted 10y ago
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- kpil 10y ago
  I would say that the stereotypes are mostly true, in the majority or minority (whatever it is) that is visible. I am sure there are a reasonably sized portion of Roma that do not live up to the stereotype and are treated unjustifiably bad, but that is not what is noticed. I am also sure that the Roma have a really hard time living in Romania and Bulgaria. However. During the recent 5-7 years or so, several thousands (25.000?) of Roma have semi-permanently migrated to Sweden, and there is now a beggar outside literally every super market, liqueur store or hardware store in Sweden. Wherever you go. Even in the smallest and most remote village. Other than begging, many of them are making a living by stealing - mostly from elders, picking pockets or ripping necklaces, shoplifting, and to some extent prostitution - all of which has become a problem in some areas. An unusually publicized event was that a Romanian Roma that got arrested for kicking a pregnant mother of two in her stomach when she challenged him when he was trying to steal a wallet from an elderly person. As a side note, it was not reported that he was Roma because ethnicity is characteristically not considered "important" in Swedish media. If mentioned, Roma are euphemistically called "EU-migrants" by media, presumably because it is considered racist to single out an ethnic minority. As there are about 1,000,000 actual legal (working) EU-migrants in Sweden, it is actually rather misleading and confusing. Sweden have a bit of a embarrassing history with our own Roma - we deported most of them to Finland in the 17th century, supposedly because they were a nuisance - and had a really hard line "integration" policy with the remaining few until 1975 or so, where many were sterilized, and many children were taken from their parents. Because of that, and also because Swedes are generally very kind-hearted - the authorities have been very lenient with the newly arrived Romanian Roma, and although they are not really allowed to stay here for more than 3 months, it is not enforced at all. Slums have been allowed to be built, and families with children are allowed to live in circumstances that would immediately lead to an intervention from the social agencies if they were not Roma. Only recently the tension has been rising, partly also because the 500.000 or so refugees that have come here during the same period. The social welfare providers have been starting to refuse to offer schools (as they have done) and medical help, on the ground that they are not actually residents. Talks and agreements have been made with Romania and Bulgaria, and some have been offered repatriation and economic help in Romania. As a side note, the "indigenous" - mostly Finnish speaking Roma that moved "back" to Sweden from Finland are not faring that well either. A police register of more or less every single Swedish Roma living in southern Sweden was leaked to a newspaper a while ago which lead to a lot of media attention and accusations of racism. The regional police was criticized by politicians and the politruk top brass, and was criticized in an internal revision, but it was also closed without further actions, as it also turned out that every single person on the list was either a recently convicted or suspected person, or closely related to or living with a recently convicted or suspected person. So yes. Stereotypes seems to be true. There are strong cultural factors that seems to hard to change, and there are probably enforcing mechanisms but those that actually really suffers are the Roma themselves. If there is any violence, it's almost exclusively within their own group, and the economic damage is actually not that large.
oblio 10y ago
The story seems a bit "feel-good"-y. Many Roma don't have the resources for this kind of trip. They're among the lowest social classes in relatively poor countries (think average wage of less than $500 per month). About discrimination... yes, there is a lot of it. It's a cultural thing. The traditional Roma culture is close to incompatible with modern societies: nomadic societies (in a world of property rights), arranged marriages for teens (as young as 12-14), a culture valuing "face" and prestige incredibly highly (think possibility of violent clashes for offenses). There's also a probably reasonable from the Roma point of view "moat mentality" where outside help is viewed with a lot of suspicion, based on past discrimination. Overall, a very hard nut to crack, this discrimination, for both sides.
- DrJokepu 10y ago
  A one way flight from Europe is North America is not that expensive ($300-$800), it's something even poor people are able to save up for and larger families are able to pool their resources together. The practice described in the article has been fairly common for well over a decade now, but previously the destination was typically Canada rather than the United States.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    > It's something even poor people are able to save up for and larger families are able to pool their resources together. And if you prosper in this new land, you send remittances.
- tdkl 10y ago
  Of course it's a feel goody story, it's an advertisement for positive immigration by the mass media.
mavdi 10y ago
You did an amazing job turning the blame on the Roma themselves.
- darawk 10y ago
  What makes you think they aren't to blame?
  - mavdi 10y ago
    So you're saying Roma people are born evil? Like if you grabbed a Roma kid, well fed and educated, taught the right from wrong, and you would still get a petty thief? Like the society and policies have no effect on them? Is this hackernews or did I just accidentally open up the comment section of daily mail?
    - rospaya 10y ago
      Where did OP imply that? He said it's a cultural thing and that's something you're not born with. From my own experience and dealing with NGO's that are trying to turn the tide, I can witness the same.
    - viraptor 10y ago
      If you grabbed a Roma kid who is well fed and educated, it's very unlikely that they come from traditional Roma culture. Behaviour described in the original post belongs to that culture. It's a description of the system, not of separate people. I wouldn't call it blaming the people directly.
    - Yetanfou 10y ago
      No, that is not what he said. What he said is that Roma (or 'Gypsy' as that term also covers other groups like the Sinti, Kale, Romanichal, Manush and others, even though that word is often used in a pejorative sense) culture (or 'nurture' in the classical nature/nurture dichotomy) leads to many of the problems experienced by these people. This is hacker news, a place where I hope more value is placed in facts than in feelings. If the facts - which can easily be found out, there are many published studies and books on the subject - don't fit your vision of society that is a problem for you to solve - or ignore. Facts and the implications thereof can be discussed but it does not make sense to deny them, nor to try to shift the attention away from them.
vonnik 10y ago
I lived in Europe for 14 years. I had several Roma friends, and I also had several family members (grandmother, father) robbed by Roma in the street. I don't see much benefit to letting those who want to leave Europe live in America. Many Roma populations are mired in multigenerational poverty, with all the vices that tend to accompany that condition.
deleted 10y ago
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nickbauman 10y ago
I've had brushes with Roma in Italy. They're very hard-pressing when begging, but other than that, they seemed OK. People were really not nice to them, though. It scared me a little.
- bertil 10y ago
  If by “hard-pressing”, you mean beat people down, empty their pocket, break doors to empty houses, tear away the pipes, steal your car… then yeah: you have the reason why people don’t like them a lot.
woodcut 10y ago
1400 years of persecution has culminated in a denial of access to basic education, healthcare and representation in government. The stereotypes applied to a people who live on the edge society are to some extent true for a dwindling minority who eschew societal norms, but who can blame them. Without access to the jobs market and a path to integration they're largely kept in their place. The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their failure to integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have refused to offer anything resembling comprehensive help. It's sad that there's no realistic prospect for integration and no EU state truly believes in constitutional multiculturalism anymore so no protections will ever be afforded to the roma as are to jewish, christian & muslim minorities.
- omginternets 10y ago
  How do you want to integrate a population that refuses to send their children to school? This is the problem we have in France, and from what I understand, just about everywhere in Europe. The Roma want to live on the fringe of society.
  - woodcut 10y ago
    I personally can't answer that. But from their perspective, we are the 'others' at the fringe of their society.
    - omginternets 10y ago
      With one key distinction that you're overlooking: we repeatedly extend a helping hand in the form of subsidies, public education, public health, and de-facto tax exemption. What we get in return is (by and large, with a few highly-publicized exceptions) groups of violent, fraudulent thieves. I'm sorry but your appeal cultural relativism is little more than denying the problem exists. This is precisely the attitude that contributes to the rise of far-right political parties in Europe.
      - woodcut 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
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woodcut 10y ago
"Gaunt face dead eyes cold lips quiet a broken heart out of breath without words no tears" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma_Victims_of_National_Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma...
yahesop 10y ago
>Americans who have never dealt with gypsies think their gypsies are anything like Europe's. Pretty much every country with a big gypsy population in Europe has programs to integrate them and have given them a chance (Romania, Spain, Portugal, France etc). Gypsies in Europe have repeatedly refused to integrate into our societies and while some do integrate and leave the gypsy life behind (I personally know one such person) they are the exception to the rule. Those who do face tremendous discrimination and have a hard time finding work. Why is that? I would argue that racism (or xenophobia) stems from repeated, bad, past experiences with a group of people. The gypsies are one such group. They deal in petty crime in every city, in organized crime and ATM theft (they make the ATMs explode at night and take the money), abduct children to raise as their own or as sex slaves, are untrustworthy in any exchange you might have with them (either they sell you crap and in that case you will never see them again or they sell you good stuff then come back later to steal it from you), if you wrong them in any way they will come back in huge groups and exact revenge, they roam the country and set up camps in private property or forests and leave a mess behind and last but not least if they have documentation the women will have dozens of kids and abuse the welfare systems. How do you resolve this with "those poor gypsies are being persecuted, just give them a chance"? This is how they are, you can't change them no matter how many programs, education or money you throw at them.
- tdkl 10y ago
  To also add what those who have no clue about gypsies don't understand is that even if some of them want to become integrated, they'll get oppressed by OTHER GYPSIES, because their culture is at stake etc. Can a gypsy be racist to a fellow gypsy? I'd be interested in hearing the answer, but presumably it will be nonfactual nonsense.
whybroke 10y ago
It will be an interesting experiment since the vast majority of Americans have none of these stereotypes. The word Gypsy conjures solely the image of a palm reader and the word Roma means nothing to the vast majority. Their speech will sound like Russian to the American ear and their appearance will match that impression. So, if the trend somehow continues or expands, we have a chance to see whether the exact same stereotypes re-emerge or whether they too end up following an unremarkable integration trajectory.
- barking 10y ago
  Well if the Irish traveller experience in the usa is any guide then I wouldn't be too hopeful http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-to-die-behind-bars-after-one-scam-too-many-26286948.html http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-t...
- bertil 10y ago
  I feel like the millennia and holy and sacro-saint tradition of beating people at the ATM to steal their cash will match a very potent reaction in the land of the gun-totters.
  - donw 10y ago
    California doesn't allow citizens that live in major metro areas to carry concealed weapons, unless they are employed as armed security, or are politically connected.
nikolay 10y ago
Roma Gypsies have been unsuccessfully trying to integrate into Europe since the 15th century. It's funny how the human rights Nazis support them but care less about their helpless and hopeless victims! In Bulgaria, many retired people live daily under the Gypsy terror, and nobody cares! These double standards make me sick! There are rights but rights come with responsibilities! If you reject to accept your civil responsibilities, you waive your rights - it's that simple!
- caf 10y ago
  As opposed to the actual Nazis that sent them to the gas chambers. The entire point of universal human rights - which grew out of the aftermath of that same Holocaust, incidentally - is that you don't waive them, ever. And it's particularly abhorrent to suggest that the rights of an entire group can be collectively abrogated by the actions of some - or even many or most - of that group.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    That's a cute and proud theory until the ones who pay the bills are in place where they feel the government is neglecting them in favour of others and the economy isn't helping as well. You know, the citizens/taxpayers. Specially the lower and middle class, which is getting rare because of globalisation. Everything has its price.
    - caf 10y ago
      That's a cute retort until it becomes apparent that many of those citizens/taxpayers are quite happy for their government to expend great sums of money in the service of brutalising others. https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-files https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-files
  - nikolay 10y ago
    Well, except that the Roma Gypsies are a special case as their "integration" has been for too long unsuccessful or more directly said - self-boycotted. In fact, their integration was unsuccessful back in India, their homeland, where they recently were found via genetic studies to descend from the Untouchables caste. In their culture, unless you steal gold, it's not considered theft. Some of their tribes still cut the right thumb of their children as it's easier to pickpocket without it. They buy their women on auctions, and there's polygamy with some. There many details about the "culture" of Roma Gypsies that Westerners are unaware of. I highly recommend you the movie "Hotel Paradise" [0], which will greatly change your perspective! The entire movie is free to watch in its entirety, it seems surreal, but it's only real! [0]: https://vimeo.com/13906172 https://vimeo.com/13906172
nikolay 10y ago
Because most of you don't have any idea about Roma Gypsies, please, watch this [0] hour-long documentary when you get a chance! [0]: https://vimeo.com/13906172 https://vimeo.com/13906172

Not sure why the downvotes. Feel free to visit Roma housings provided for those in need in northrine-westfalia, and witness behaviour that can only be described as anti social. Like literally throwing trash out the window, social security fraud, theft, begging and overt hostility to "intruders. But feel free to click that downvote button, the warm fuzz of perceived moral superiority feels great doesn't it?

omginternets 10y ago
You forgot "threatening to kill their children when police try to make arrests at camp". I leave it as an exercise to any incredulous reader to look this shit up. People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma. What's worrying (to me) is that these do-gooders don't seem to realize that their behavior is pushing otherwise moderate people to the far right. The far right is literally the only political arena that recognizes that such a problem exists.
- girvo 10y ago
  > People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma The issue with that sort of reasoning is that it is word-for-word exactly what was said about Black people... and is still said by some. So people have a pretty understandable reaction to it, regardless of the merit of it within a particular context.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    Yes, and I can totally understand that. That's the hard thing when discussing Roma: they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The other thing that makes it difficult is that they objectively have suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime, so it's easy to start accusing critics of supporting such policies. In my experience, this is rarely the case, and doing so only lends legitimacy to far-right political groups. That said, it's possible to be critical of a clear and consistent pattern of behavior without calling for violence.
    - fennecfoxen 10y ago
      > they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance and their typical clothing. Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a "gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to modern prosperity. And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something. So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.
      - bertil 10y ago
        I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.
openasocket 10y ago
What does this have to do with the article? The article is about Roma who say they have had "camps demolished, businesses firebombed, neighborhoods walled off and children beaten" in Europe seeking asylum in the US. You're just making counter accusations about the Roma. It sounds like you are justifying the firebombings and beatings. Are you?
- bertil 10y ago
  The beatings and firebombing were by fellow Romas.
  - openasocket 10y ago
    The full sentence is: "A resurgence of neo-Nazism from Romania to Italy has seen their camps demolished, businesses firebombed, neighborhoods walled off and children beaten." Where did you get that the Roma were firebombing other Roma? There's certainly nothing in the article that suggests that.
    - bertil 10y ago
      After I was beaten down by a group of Romas, I made a declaration of theft at the Police station. The officers there explained what they had been living after only three months of Roma invasion: 100% of street crimes, larceny, house and flat theft were directly attributed (with testimony, video) to Romas. There was a fire at one of the camps and Romas went to the press to clamour about racism and hatred, but when the Police asked to investigate, the Roma leaders refused access. The Police did anyway, and in addition to children hidden from the administration, criminally insalubrious conditions, and a ton of stolen equipment, they realised there were a feud with another nearby camp. They went there, and the leader there promised to “Burn them to the ground, for good this time”. After that, they took testimonies from Romas with a grain of salt.
      - openasocket 10y ago
        Do you have a source for this? A new article or something?

barking 10y ago

The first time I ever saw a roma it was a young lady at the checkout in front of me who was obviously just learning how to do the change of a fifty swindle. Her trainer appeared from nowhere and rescued her by interrupting and asking some dumbass question about some item he'd pulled off a shelf and then they both left

wnoise 10y ago
The first time you recognized one, maybe. And why are you certain she was Roma?
- barking 10y ago
  Pretty certain and I met a few after through my work. She was strikingly pretty in the roma way (like a very fair Indian person) and was dressed in the roma style. Our town of 20,000 people went from zero to several hundred roma at that time.
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GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

It's always a little surprising when you're talking with someone from Europe and they seem to have pretty reasonable views about the world and then somebody brings up the Roma and hoo boy the mask comes off.

hubert123 10y ago
I know this is hard to believe but there are actually groups of people who are worse than other groups of people. I know, it boggles the mind sometimes.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  The difference is that bigots think you mean whichever "they" is on the menu, and the rest of us think you're being ironically self-referential.
  - hubert123 10y ago
    I have no idea what you just said or meant.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  It's a cultural difference. Roma have all the freedom and obligation of adjusting their culture and fitting in, but they don't do it, do they? You can't change your skin color and is not responsible for it and should wear it proudly, but you can definitely fix your culture, AND THEN wear it proudly.
- blacksmith_tb 10y ago
  Hmm, not sure I can agree, but for the sake of argument, I assume that you don't think every member of said group is bad? Or every member of a 'better' group is good? That would be a very bold argument, which would require remarkable proof.
  - corysama 10y ago

M_Grey 10y ago

I hate to say it, but if I were one of the groups that had a hard time in Europe circa the 1940's, I'd be packing my bags too. There's a reason that so many Jews got the hell out of France in the last few years. It might be paranoid, but we've all seen how far the alternative gets you.

welanes 10y ago
> There's a reason that so many Jews got the hell out of France in the last few years. Do tell us that reason.
- SolaceQuantum 10y ago
  France has had a rising antisemetic sentiment along with the defacing of Jewish cultural sites, along with a sharp increas (think double) over the last year or two of hate crime against Jews. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-might-not-have-any-jews-in-the-future-and-h/ http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-might-n...
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    What do you think, what specific demographic group in france is most visible in antisemitic sentiment, defacing of Jewish cultural sites and hate crime against Jews?
    - Mao_Zedang 10y ago
      As a Jew myself the majority of modern antisemitism I see is from Muslims.
      - sliverstorm 10y ago
        Curious, do you see that as truly antisemitism, or anti-non-muslim-ism? I frequently see misanthropy or xenophobia masquerading behind specific racist/sexist/theist/etc slurs.

guard-of-terra 10y ago

“There’s a lot of prejudice against Roma in almost every country in Europe,” For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna railway station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the machines or harrass it off passengers. Can I call this not prejudice but actually a mature judice? 'cause I've never seen anybody else do it. You get to have prejudices when you behave like that.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna railway station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the machines or harrass it off passengers. I've directly witnessed lots of white Americans do lots of horrible things, in many cases horrible things I've never witnessed people of other ethnic backgrounds doing. If I then decide that white Americans as a whole are horrible people who do those horrible things, its still prejudice -- I am prejudging individuals based not on nothing but their ethnic similarity to people I've witnessed doing bad things.
- ddorian43 10y ago
  There are patterns on Roma people. They don't integrate locally, that's why they're all the same. The same thing is by Albanians who emigrate, if they keep their local culture they mostly ~suck (really, ask ANY Albanian). ~Most Roma people don't integrate therefore they suck (their original culture does). Americans integrate locally (redneck, bible belt, etc) and are different between states/cities/etc.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously, those countries definitely have rights to kick them out and prevent any more americans from coming.
  - estebank 10y ago
    > If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously,(...) I believe you just described a good chunk of American tourists. :) And a good chunk of all people, everywhere, for that matter.

orf 10y ago

So I really try not to be judgemental and I feel a bit bad saying this, but I don't have a single good thing to say about Gypsies and I've never met someone who has. At least about the ones you see in the UK. They are a huge problem in the city where I went to University, constantly draining police resources to deal with petty crime. Everyone I've talked to in front of house roles absolutely hated dealing with them as well, if not stealing they always seem to find hair in something and so get a refund or a discount. Where I grew up they caused huge problems when they moved camping ground, draining council resources and never clearing up after themselves. They left huge piles of litter in the most beautiful countryside spots. There is an interesting documentary about UK Gypsies called 'Big Fat Gypsy Weddings', it's worth a watch if you're interested in that sort of thing. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings Edit: And I don't like the 'well you must be racist if you think this' comments here.

MrMullen 10y ago
Won't these be "Travelers" and not Roma?
- jdietrich 10y ago
  There are around 200,000 migrant Roma in the UK, with another 200-300,000 people who meet the broader Council of Europe definition of "Roma". Irish travellers are the main other itinerant group; estimates suggest that there are around 25,000 Irish travellers in the UK. All of this data is fairly vague, because itinerant people are inherently difficult to survey. There is only a single census category for "gypsy/traveller", so that's of little help. Many indigenous British travellers do not identify themselves as being Roma and have unclear origins, further complicating the situation. http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/Migrant_Roma_in_the_UK_final_report_October_2013.pdf http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/... http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers
fennecfoxen 10y ago
> Edit: And I don't like the 'well you must be racist if you think this' comments here. You've raised the issue in a well-reasoned manner which largely avoids being gratuitous. Your discomfort at saying this suggests that you would otherwise prefer to view the Roma as decent people, and there is little to make one doubt you'd be happy to afford them the rights and dignities which all of mankind deserve. Others here have presented the case in far nastier ways and their comments have gotten the predictable flag / kill treatment.

klodolph 10y ago

I'm going to take the moral stance here that even if you actually are making a factually correct statement of fact it is wrong to make prejudiced / racist comments. "Roma are __", "black people are __", "Mexicans are __", it looks like you're playing a racist version of mad libs to the wide-eyed people listening to your hate. And no, I don't give a damn about your personal experiences with ethnic group X, Y, or Z. Let's keep it civil, folks.

orf 10y ago
I'm not sure that follows. But nice to know you don't listen either facts or opinions I guess?
sliverstorm 10y ago
Come again? If I am to say, "Elbonians are statistically 2000% more likely to be five foot three", I am making a racist comment?
- khedoros 10y ago
  I think it's more like if I said "90% of Narnians are bankers and bankers statistically give less to charity; here's the data supporting each statement" or "Kilrathi are statistically 47% more likely than Dothraki to end up in jail", they may be factually-supported statements, but they can be reasonably interpreted as having deeper meanings than just the numbers. The facts themselves aren't racist, but the things I'm expecting the reader to infer from them are.
- klodolph 10y ago
  Think of a Venn diagram, with one circle being "correct statements of fact" and another circle being "racist comments". The two circles intersect, that is all, and my claim is that "I am making a statement of fact" is not sufficient to claim "I am doing nothing morally wrong".
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    The truth is supposed to be a perfect defense against charges of slander or libel.

tetrep 10y ago

> “The stereotypes of them panhandling and engaging in petty thievery just stir up these prejudices.” > In Sweden, politicians are debating whether to ban begging, a tactic critics say targets Roma. So, the stereotypes are true? From what I can tell, the Roma have a distinct way of life that they're seeking out, making them a bit different than socioeconomically transient groups that are struggling to integrate and succeed (i.e. various influxes of immigrants at different stages of US history).

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kpil 10y ago
I would say that the stereotypes are mostly true, in the majority or minority (whatever it is) that is visible. I am sure there are a reasonably sized portion of Roma that do not live up to the stereotype and are treated unjustifiably bad, but that is not what is noticed. I am also sure that the Roma have a really hard time living in Romania and Bulgaria. However. During the recent 5-7 years or so, several thousands (25.000?) of Roma have semi-permanently migrated to Sweden, and there is now a beggar outside literally every super market, liqueur store or hardware store in Sweden. Wherever you go. Even in the smallest and most remote village. Other than begging, many of them are making a living by stealing - mostly from elders, picking pockets or ripping necklaces, shoplifting, and to some extent prostitution - all of which has become a problem in some areas. An unusually publicized event was that a Romanian Roma that got arrested for kicking a pregnant mother of two in her stomach when she challenged him when he was trying to steal a wallet from an elderly person. As a side note, it was not reported that he was Roma because ethnicity is characteristically not considered "important" in Swedish media. If mentioned, Roma are euphemistically called "EU-migrants" by media, presumably because it is considered racist to single out an ethnic minority. As there are about 1,000,000 actual legal (working) EU-migrants in Sweden, it is actually rather misleading and confusing. Sweden have a bit of a embarrassing history with our own Roma - we deported most of them to Finland in the 17th century, supposedly because they were a nuisance - and had a really hard line "integration" policy with the remaining few until 1975 or so, where many were sterilized, and many children were taken from their parents. Because of that, and also because Swedes are generally very kind-hearted - the authorities have been very lenient with the newly arrived Romanian Roma, and although they are not really allowed to stay here for more than 3 months, it is not enforced at all. Slums have been allowed to be built, and families with children are allowed to live in circumstances that would immediately lead to an intervention from the social agencies if they were not Roma. Only recently the tension has been rising, partly also because the 500.000 or so refugees that have come here during the same period. The social welfare providers have been starting to refuse to offer schools (as they have done) and medical help, on the ground that they are not actually residents. Talks and agreements have been made with Romania and Bulgaria, and some have been offered repatriation and economic help in Romania. As a side note, the "indigenous" - mostly Finnish speaking Roma that moved "back" to Sweden from Finland are not faring that well either. A police register of more or less every single Swedish Roma living in southern Sweden was leaked to a newspaper a while ago which lead to a lot of media attention and accusations of racism. The regional police was criticized by politicians and the politruk top brass, and was criticized in an internal revision, but it was also closed without further actions, as it also turned out that every single person on the list was either a recently convicted or suspected person, or closely related to or living with a recently convicted or suspected person. So yes. Stereotypes seems to be true. There are strong cultural factors that seems to hard to change, and there are probably enforcing mechanisms but those that actually really suffers are the Roma themselves. If there is any violence, it's almost exclusively within their own group, and the economic damage is actually not that large.

oblio 10y ago

The story seems a bit "feel-good"-y. Many Roma don't have the resources for this kind of trip. They're among the lowest social classes in relatively poor countries (think average wage of less than $500 per month). About discrimination... yes, there is a lot of it. It's a cultural thing. The traditional Roma culture is close to incompatible with modern societies: nomadic societies (in a world of property rights), arranged marriages for teens (as young as 12-14), a culture valuing "face" and prestige incredibly highly (think possibility of violent clashes for offenses). There's also a probably reasonable from the Roma point of view "moat mentality" where outside help is viewed with a lot of suspicion, based on past discrimination. Overall, a very hard nut to crack, this discrimination, for both sides.

DrJokepu 10y ago
A one way flight from Europe is North America is not that expensive ($300-$800), it's something even poor people are able to save up for and larger families are able to pool their resources together. The practice described in the article has been fairly common for well over a decade now, but previously the destination was typically Canada rather than the United States.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > It's something even poor people are able to save up for and larger families are able to pool their resources together. And if you prosper in this new land, you send remittances.
tdkl 10y ago
Of course it's a feel goody story, it's an advertisement for positive immigration by the mass media.

mavdi 10y ago

You did an amazing job turning the blame on the Roma themselves.

darawk 10y ago
What makes you think they aren't to blame?
- mavdi 10y ago
  So you're saying Roma people are born evil? Like if you grabbed a Roma kid, well fed and educated, taught the right from wrong, and you would still get a petty thief? Like the society and policies have no effect on them? Is this hackernews or did I just accidentally open up the comment section of daily mail?
  - rospaya 10y ago
    Where did OP imply that? He said it's a cultural thing and that's something you're not born with. From my own experience and dealing with NGO's that are trying to turn the tide, I can witness the same.
  - viraptor 10y ago
    If you grabbed a Roma kid who is well fed and educated, it's very unlikely that they come from traditional Roma culture. Behaviour described in the original post belongs to that culture. It's a description of the system, not of separate people. I wouldn't call it blaming the people directly.
  - Yetanfou 10y ago
    No, that is not what he said. What he said is that Roma (or 'Gypsy' as that term also covers other groups like the Sinti, Kale, Romanichal, Manush and others, even though that word is often used in a pejorative sense) culture (or 'nurture' in the classical nature/nurture dichotomy) leads to many of the problems experienced by these people. This is hacker news, a place where I hope more value is placed in facts than in feelings. If the facts - which can easily be found out, there are many published studies and books on the subject - don't fit your vision of society that is a problem for you to solve - or ignore. Facts and the implications thereof can be discussed but it does not make sense to deny them, nor to try to shift the attention away from them.

vonnik 10y ago

I lived in Europe for 14 years. I had several Roma friends, and I also had several family members (grandmother, father) robbed by Roma in the street. I don't see much benefit to letting those who want to leave Europe live in America. Many Roma populations are mired in multigenerational poverty, with all the vices that tend to accompany that condition.

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nickbauman 10y ago

I've had brushes with Roma in Italy. They're very hard-pressing when begging, but other than that, they seemed OK. People were really not nice to them, though. It scared me a little.

bertil 10y ago
If by “hard-pressing”, you mean beat people down, empty their pocket, break doors to empty houses, tear away the pipes, steal your car… then yeah: you have the reason why people don’t like them a lot.

woodcut 10y ago

1400 years of persecution has culminated in a denial of access to basic education, healthcare and representation in government. The stereotypes applied to a people who live on the edge society are to some extent true for a dwindling minority who eschew societal norms, but who can blame them. Without access to the jobs market and a path to integration they're largely kept in their place. The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their failure to integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have refused to offer anything resembling comprehensive help. It's sad that there's no realistic prospect for integration and no EU state truly believes in constitutional multiculturalism anymore so no protections will ever be afforded to the roma as are to jewish, christian & muslim minorities.

omginternets 10y ago
How do you want to integrate a population that refuses to send their children to school? This is the problem we have in France, and from what I understand, just about everywhere in Europe. The Roma want to live on the fringe of society.
- woodcut 10y ago
  I personally can't answer that. But from their perspective, we are the 'others' at the fringe of their society.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    With one key distinction that you're overlooking: we repeatedly extend a helping hand in the form of subsidies, public education, public health, and de-facto tax exemption. What we get in return is (by and large, with a few highly-publicized exceptions) groups of violent, fraudulent thieves. I'm sorry but your appeal cultural relativism is little more than denying the problem exists. This is precisely the attitude that contributes to the rise of far-right political parties in Europe.
    - woodcut 10y ago

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woodcut 10y ago

"Gaunt face dead eyes cold lips quiet a broken heart out of breath without words no tears" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma_Victims_of_National_Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma...

yahesop 10y ago

>Americans who have never dealt with gypsies think their gypsies are anything like Europe's. Pretty much every country with a big gypsy population in Europe has programs to integrate them and have given them a chance (Romania, Spain, Portugal, France etc). Gypsies in Europe have repeatedly refused to integrate into our societies and while some do integrate and leave the gypsy life behind (I personally know one such person) they are the exception to the rule. Those who do face tremendous discrimination and have a hard time finding work. Why is that? I would argue that racism (or xenophobia) stems from repeated, bad, past experiences with a group of people. The gypsies are one such group. They deal in petty crime in every city, in organized crime and ATM theft (they make the ATMs explode at night and take the money), abduct children to raise as their own or as sex slaves, are untrustworthy in any exchange you might have with them (either they sell you crap and in that case you will never see them again or they sell you good stuff then come back later to steal it from you), if you wrong them in any way they will come back in huge groups and exact revenge, they roam the country and set up camps in private property or forests and leave a mess behind and last but not least if they have documentation the women will have dozens of kids and abuse the welfare systems. How do you resolve this with "those poor gypsies are being persecuted, just give them a chance"? This is how they are, you can't change them no matter how many programs, education or money you throw at them.

tdkl 10y ago
To also add what those who have no clue about gypsies don't understand is that even if some of them want to become integrated, they'll get oppressed by OTHER GYPSIES, because their culture is at stake etc. Can a gypsy be racist to a fellow gypsy? I'd be interested in hearing the answer, but presumably it will be nonfactual nonsense.

whybroke 10y ago

It will be an interesting experiment since the vast majority of Americans have none of these stereotypes. The word Gypsy conjures solely the image of a palm reader and the word Roma means nothing to the vast majority. Their speech will sound like Russian to the American ear and their appearance will match that impression. So, if the trend somehow continues or expands, we have a chance to see whether the exact same stereotypes re-emerge or whether they too end up following an unremarkable integration trajectory.

barking 10y ago
Well if the Irish traveller experience in the usa is any guide then I wouldn't be too hopeful http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-to-die-behind-bars-after-one-scam-too-many-26286948.html http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-t...
bertil 10y ago
I feel like the millennia and holy and sacro-saint tradition of beating people at the ATM to steal their cash will match a very potent reaction in the land of the gun-totters.
- donw 10y ago
  California doesn't allow citizens that live in major metro areas to carry concealed weapons, unless they are employed as armed security, or are politically connected.

nikolay 10y ago

Roma Gypsies have been unsuccessfully trying to integrate into Europe since the 15th century. It's funny how the human rights Nazis support them but care less about their helpless and hopeless victims! In Bulgaria, many retired people live daily under the Gypsy terror, and nobody cares! These double standards make me sick! There are rights but rights come with responsibilities! If you reject to accept your civil responsibilities, you waive your rights - it's that simple!

caf 10y ago
As opposed to the actual Nazis that sent them to the gas chambers. The entire point of universal human rights - which grew out of the aftermath of that same Holocaust, incidentally - is that you don't waive them, ever. And it's particularly abhorrent to suggest that the rights of an entire group can be collectively abrogated by the actions of some - or even many or most - of that group.
- tdkl 10y ago
  That's a cute and proud theory until the ones who pay the bills are in place where they feel the government is neglecting them in favour of others and the economy isn't helping as well. You know, the citizens/taxpayers. Specially the lower and middle class, which is getting rare because of globalisation. Everything has its price.
  - caf 10y ago
    That's a cute retort until it becomes apparent that many of those citizens/taxpayers are quite happy for their government to expend great sums of money in the service of brutalising others. https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-files https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-files
- nikolay 10y ago
  Well, except that the Roma Gypsies are a special case as their "integration" has been for too long unsuccessful or more directly said - self-boycotted. In fact, their integration was unsuccessful back in India, their homeland, where they recently were found via genetic studies to descend from the Untouchables caste. In their culture, unless you steal gold, it's not considered theft. Some of their tribes still cut the right thumb of their children as it's easier to pickpocket without it. They buy their women on auctions, and there's polygamy with some. There many details about the "culture" of Roma Gypsies that Westerners are unaware of. I highly recommend you the movie "Hotel Paradise" [0], which will greatly change your perspective! The entire movie is free to watch in its entirety, it seems surreal, but it's only real! [0]: https://vimeo.com/13906172 https://vimeo.com/13906172

nikolay 10y ago

Because most of you don't have any idea about Roma Gypsies, please, watch this [0] hour-long documentary when you get a chance! [0]: https://vimeo.com/13906172 https://vimeo.com/13906172