18 ms·

HP Allegedly Time Bombs Unofficial Ink Cartridges from Working in Its Printers

438 points by defenestration 10y ago

Sanddancer 10y ago
I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Printer makers use the razor/razorblade model for consumables, where the printer's dirt cheap, but the ink costs an arm and a leg. This is just the latest tactic for getting people to go OEM only. At this point, I long for the good old days, when Canon embraced 3rd party ink vendors. Canon's cartridges were cheap because the print heads were a separate, replaceable, item, and the third parties were more than free to put out really interesting inks, like sets of greyscale for making really nice black and white prints.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  I never understood the razor/razorblade analogy. A razor handle without a blade is just a shaped bit of plastic or metal, without any working or moving parts. The precision engineering is all in the blade. It'd be weird if the handle wasn't cheap and the blades more expensive. But a printer really is a non-trivial set of electronics and working parts, so it is more surprising that they're so cheap.
  - logical42 10y ago
    Safety razors are very cheap. I believe the OP is referring to the profit model of companies like Gillette, extracting larger margins on a more consistent basis in trade for a marginal amount of ease of use for the consumer.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - Sanddancer 10y ago
    Razor/razor blade is a marketing strategy. Sell/give the base at a low or free cost, and make the money on selling the consumables at a significant markup. The razor itself also has to be engineered for durability, with springs, latches, etc. While it's a comparatively simple part, it needs to be rugged to last a few years in a moisture filled environment where it's liable to be dropped and otherwise abused. Similarly, the print heads are the precision part in a printer. Drive components in the printer itself -- motor, the belts, rollers, etc, are all pretty cheap and easy at this point; the same print engine will be used over several series of printers. The print heads on the other hand, have piezoelectric parts and/or heat elements that have to be very quick and accurate to do a good job. Both cases, while there is definitely some engineering in them, it doesn't rise to the cost levels we see them being sold at.
  - scarecrowbob 10y ago
    As another poster points out, modern blades are different than older style blades where the blade was just a thin piece of sharp metal. I have one from my great grandfather... the blades are the definitely the cheap, disposable part. That's the model which the idea refers to.
    - sitharus 10y ago
      In modern money, my razor handle cost ~us$70, but the blades code around 20c each.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    That's because you've probably grown up under this regime. Older style razors are the opposite. My dad has probably spent $100 in shaving supplies over the last 30 years. I got suckered into Gillette and could probably buy a Honda Accord for the money I've dumped into this crap.
    - boodm 10y ago
      Change that today! /r/wicked_edge You don't have to use the fancy soaps / brushes to wet shave, but they do help. Buy a handle (~$25) and blades are dirt cheap QTY 100 for ~$12 - 20.
- reustle 10y ago
  I haven't really thought about it recently, but (parts of) Asia seems to have this whole printer ink thing figured out. Just about every printer I see in Thailand has the tubes coming out which go to bottles similar to this [1]. There are little refill stations in malls, and that seems to be the standard. No overpriced OEM cartridges, just a straight ink reservoir. [1] http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bJKz4lWVpfo/S9p02XqXZqI/AAAAAAAADEI/Q_JiR9Oz9sw/ciss-printer-2_thumb.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bJKz4lWVpfo/S9p02XqXZqI/AAAAAAAADEI/Q_...
  - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
    ..and they have modified food-grade inks so you can print on latte foam or biscuits/cookies. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-offered-edible-ink-Patent-CE-foam-coffee-cake-ice-cream-Flatbed-printer/32718241366.html?spm=2114.40010208.4.18.SjqZTC https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-offered-edible-ink-P... I am assuming it is Epson parts, based on the 1440 dpi dimension
  - ChoHag 10y ago
    That's basically how it happens in all the countries which have a healthy respect for the law.
tener 10y ago
I wonder how this will play out. This should get the attention of consumer rights watchdog at least, but possibly also class action suite.
pmoriarty 10y ago
Are there any open hardware printers in the making? I seem to recall some open hardware cell phone projects. No reason a similar effort couldn't be directed towards making an open printer, is there? Also, it might not even require making a full open hardware printer, but just some key circuitry and maybe some drivers, right?
- stephengillie 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure there are more open 3D printer projects, than open paper printer projects. Which just reinforces the differences between 2D and 3D printing.
- midnitewarrior 10y ago
  HP and others have a lot of patents in that space with an army of lawyers to defend them unfortunately. It would have to avoid using anything coming close to these patents...
  - Harelin 10y ago
    Patents expire, and printers are fairly old technology, so perhaps there is to be a printer revolution in the not so distant future?
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      Unfortunately, the inapplicability of intellectual property doesn't seem to matter much. They probably wouldn't use an expired patent in a suit, but many of these places just make minor tweaks and file for a new patent on the "new invention". There's enough grey area that you have to go to court to hash out whether or not the technology is infringing. Opposing IP lawyers working for one of the largest media companies in the world have openly told an associate that while the thing they C&D'd her on may have had a good chance to be ruled non-infringing, she should comply with the C&D anyway since she would be financially ruined by a lawsuit, win or lose (realistically, she wouldn't be able to win because she'd run out of money WAY before the case even approached a conclusion -- one of big companies' favorite strategies is to "starve out" their legal opponents by making the case as expensive and convoluted as possible).
eggy 10y ago
I haven't owned and HP printer in a while, but this article will stop me from making an HP printer my next purchase if and when I need one. What a dirty, cheap tactic by HP! They'll fire some low-wage earner worker and a mid-level manager over this, while the real culprit stays at his job I'm sure. Definitely class-action, and even criminal, no? Consumer fraud, deception? Third-party replacements are running fine in my Samsung and Canon, without a complaint.
- azarias 10y ago
  HP just agreed to buy Samsung's printing business. https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-printer-business-for-1-05-billion/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-prin...
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    Eh, those were terrible anyway. I have an ML2525w which should be wireless, but in reality almost never joins the wifi network on boot reliably like all of the ESP8266s I have. I have to re-run setup on it all the time, and half the time it doesn't get detected by the tool. I gave up long ago and just hard-wired it. If I follow the exact turn-on procedure it likes and wait for it to be fully settled before attempting to print, it generally will start printing within a minute or so. Honestly, I'm so done with printers. If I really need something, I can run to the 24hr kinkos or the office center in my complex. Owning a printer in 2016 seems kind of silly.
    - eggy 10y ago
      I've had no connectivity issues with my Samsung color laser printer. I need it here in SE Asia, since bureaucracy still reigns and paper vs. electronics is not quite there yet. It reminds me of Brooklyn in the 70s for that matter - the DMV comes to mind! Love my ESP8266; did you year about the ESP32 yet? I am trying to port Wasp Lisp/Wasp VM to it for networking (not pentesting) not for IOT, but creating a mesh network of sorts here in the village I have been staying in East Java - no Kinkos or Starbucks here!
- 10y ago
Animats 10y ago
There's the Epson Eco-Tank series. Ink is in four bottles at the side of the machine, good for about 4000-6000 pages. Refill with Epson ink bottles or (a bit more messily) from bulk ink. The printer costs about $279. You do have to clean the print heads occasionally. That's the price of long life print heads.
- m3adow 10y ago
  How is the Linux support for Epson printers? The big thing for HP is their good support for Linux.
  - Nullabillity 10y ago
    "Good" Linux support means being able to just download a PPD and shove it into CUPS. AFAIK HP is the only one that requires their own crappy GUI on top.
    - tome 10y ago
      I've had a couple of HP printers on Linux and they didn't require a GUI.
    - lvillani 10y ago
      Personally, I never ever had to use hplip's GUI tool, except for configuring wireless printing. After doing so, I could uninstall it and use bog-standard CUPS.
    - babuskov 10y ago
      At my previous job we installed dozens of different HP printers on Linux. We never needed to launch a GUI.
    - gmazza 10y ago
      The only time I had to use (admittedly annoying) HP GUI installer is for scanner part of HP CM1015 MFP. Printer part of the same MFP worked fine with just normal CUPS.
  - 10y ago
bedros 10y ago
just few days back (possible Sept 13th) I got the following error message One or more cartridges appear to be damaged. Remove them and replace with new cartridges I was using non-hp ink cartridges. I've been HP customer for 20 years, and I'm done with HP for their dishonesty.
chris_wot 10y ago
If this is affecting printers in Australia, then HP are going to learn a very costly lesson in ethics. The ACCC will have to do an investigation, but the instant they confirm this has occurred they will face stiff fines for third line forcing and anti-competitive behaviour distorting the market.
- shoo 10y ago
  i'm in australia and bought some cheap fuji-xerox laser printer a year or so ago. non-oem ink refills are far cheaper than oem ones. a large component of the cost of non-oem ink refills is getting a replacement chip that counts how many times you can print before it claims it needs refilling. you can buy more of these chips along with bulk ink refills. it's like DRM for ink or something.
- supercoder 10y ago
  There are no fines large enough the ACCC can serve that will stop them from this practice. ACCC is pretty toothless again big companies like this.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I dunno, they stopped Apple and HP from selling "extended warranties".
    - supercoder 10y ago
      What ? Apple definitely sell extended warranties.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        No, they do not. Not in Australia.
        supercoder 10y ago
        http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare
deleted 10y ago
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Sneakos 10y ago
If you're gonna do something sketchy like this, at least be smart about it. HP could learn from Apple...
woliveirajr 10y ago
Laser OKI color printer isn't different. Each toner (CMYK) has a life based on printed pages and stop working even if there's toner inside. No third part supplier, because the printer won't recognize it. And it's useless torefill it if you don't change some chip in each toner. And then the fusor will also stop after some number of pages, no matter if the quality was still good. To replace it you spend more than you paid for the printer. So OKI was in my banned list, now HP joins it.
- izacus 10y ago
  Which OKI do you have? Since I'm running my C301dn on 3rd party toners for awhile now.
  - woliveirajr 10y ago
    Oki C110.
  - pingec 10y ago
    I also have the C301dn and am very satisfied with it compared to previous printers (inkjets). Works when you need it even after months of non-usage and toner replacements are cheap off ebay. The only thing that worries me is the drum unit / fuser / belt life as I have no idea what happens when they reach 0%. There is a hardware hack though to reset those as well.
    - woliveirajr 10y ago
      I couldn't find hard resets to my drum unit/fuser. No soft ones too. Here the replacement costs more than I would pay for a new printer. And, what makes me sick, the quality was as good as brand new, so the "we limit the amount of printings because we care about the quality loss" yada-yada is pure #@$#*!$@
- vlehto 10y ago
  Life based on printed pages would be OK. If you actually print the number pages you promise, I can compare the total costs of cartridges and printers. But I think some models also have timer. After 6 months or year, the printer starts to complain that the ink has "dried up". To prohibit you from saving up that unicorn blood by printing less. By banned list is HP, Canon and I'm very cautious about Samsung.
kpil 10y ago
How is this legal? As a side note, HP sells a (vintage) 256 MB DDR2 RAM module for $600 (USD) for it's new printers.
- nightcracker 10y ago
  Hint: it isn't.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Surely depends on jurisdiction.
- Roboprog 10y ago
  Big companies can get away with all kinds of "fecal production" in the US. We're not yet China or Mexico, but we sure as hell ain't the EU, either. All your legislative bases are belong to us, or some such rot.
denzell 10y ago
how is this legal? It's akin to a car shutting down if a non genuine part is used.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Which is the future now that there's talk of the car's computer checking crypto signatures on each part and refusing to start the engine if they don't match. Heard of this concept at least once here on HN.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Tesla is already doing this, iirc. As self-driving cars become a thing, you'll see way more of this, "for safety".
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    In the case of automated multi-ton death machines moving at high-speed near other people, that seems totally reasonable. You shouldn't be allowed to tinker with your automated car and risk everyone else's lives.
    - tamana 10y ago
      No, it's not reasonable. Government should set standard, free market competes to follow start dates with best quality and lowest cost. Wht should Tesla be able to prevent me from replacing a bad Tesla part with a better/safer third-party part?
      - marcoperaza 10y ago
        As long as it's advertised that way upfront, then I don't see why not. Tesla is not going to be the only automated car manufacturer. Today, you can buy cars that only take specialty parts. You can also buy cars that take standard parts. I'm sure it will be that way with automated cars too. Same way that you should be able to buy an iPhone with all of its non-standard quirks. As for safety, it depends on the specific parts. An automated car is a complete integrated system. Once people start swapping parts, the test-matrix to ensure safety explodes. People modifying the driving software in their own cars, for example, is definitely a no-go. (And modifying any software at all should be prohibited unless the driving and entertainment computers are completely air-gapped.)
azarias 10y ago
Can confirm, this happened to our HP 6830 printer on September 13. Extremely annoyed because we only bought this printer in June, and was working fine with a replacement ink. I was actually researching legal precedents to this, and learned that Lexmark has been fighting something like this in court for over a decade[1]. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after-failing-to-use-copyright-trademark-law-to-stop-printer-ink-resellers-lexmark-finally-scores-victory-with-patent-law.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after...
- PieterH 10y ago
  Yeah, patent law, recourse of the scoundrels.
proctor 10y ago
This kind of reminds me of how some of these companies disable the scanner portion of "All-in-One" type printers if the printer portion is out of ink.
frou_dh 10y ago
Inkjet printers have been simply the most loathsome category of electronics I've encountered. Concluded some years ago to never own one again. Garbage! Zero tolerance!
henrygrew 10y ago
Very dishonest practice from HP i'm never going to use any of their products again.
- gaius 10y ago
  It's very sad - I am old enough to remember when HP was synonymous with quality and doing the right thing for both customers and employees. Hewlett and Packard (the founders) would never have pulled a stunt like this. Fiorina destroyed that legacy almost overnight.
  - proactivesvcs 10y ago
    And I'd buy their products from their reputation. I can't imagine they'll redeem themselves from such a long period of reprehensible policies and shoddy products.
  - MrTonyD 10y ago
    I'm in Silicon Valley and I know someone working in their outsourcing group. HP has a "secret" office where they try to get all their development offshore. They will arrange travel visas to rotate people from other countries into hotels to work on projects. It is coordinated across the entire company in order to cut costs. I wish that we wouldn't allow such companies to sell in the United States (ie. companies that hide their income and employ offshore in order to avoid employing US employees. Such companies shouldn't be able to sell in the US.)
pearjuice 10y ago
Sadly, HP doesn't have a reality distortion field. Apple would have gotten away with this and some clever marketing.
ne01 10y ago
Liberate yourself from softwares/products like this! We used to own the stuff we paid for! Now it's like you pay to be the product. I think this problem is worse in software. Checkout fsf.org
- imglorp 10y ago
  Stallman was right...
  - copperx 10y ago
    First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you...
    - tunap 10y ago
      Haha, no, they're always laughing at us. First and foremost they take the money. Then they force/trick you into loading 200MB of crap to get a kB driver loaded. Then they ignore you, except for the multiple, obfuscated spywares the driver bundle installed.
  - prodigal_erik 10y ago
    No surprise, it was a printer vendor being buttheaded about their proprietary driver that partly motivated the GNU project.
pjc50 10y ago
I'm fairly sure this is illegal in the EU under one of the e-waste directives.
- clydethefrog 10y ago
  Yes, cartridges fall under the WEEE Directive. What do you think is the best way to enforce the rules on HP and make this action illegal? Contact the Member State authorities? Feel this should be enforced by the EU instead of national... gah, directives.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - pjc50 10y ago
    First check if the offending printers are actually being sold in Europe! They might only be for the US market.
    - clydethefrog 10y ago
      Dutch retailer 123inkt was mostly responsible for finding this time bomb, so yes, definitely.
tdkl 10y ago
Does this also happens with laser toner cartridges ? I really have no idea why people even buy those inkjet printers anymore, price per page is lower with laser printers and prices even for a color laser are in sub 200€$ range.
- clarry 10y ago
  Laser sucks for printing photos.
  - imglorp 10y ago
    Yeah but if you want documents and shelf life (toner doesn't dry out in a year) then lasers might be better for you.
    - dghughes 10y ago
      I think I'm on year three for my laser printer colour toner cartridges. I did have to swap out the black after two years maybe 2 1/2 but I ran it for six months with errors and warnings and pleading.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    True although cost of printing photos on an inkjet is again much higher then getting them printed in a shop.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    Is there a reason that Shutterfly or other similar services don't satisfy those needs? I try not to own things anymore unless I use them frequently (lessons learned after moving twice in Manhattan), and printing color photos definitely isn't a frequent need for me, or I suspect, for most people.
    - artursapek 10y ago
      Especially in Manhattan! You're always a few blocks away from a place that will do it for you for a reasonable price.
tluyben2 10y ago
Not trolling, but why do you use printers? I haven't used paper for 5 odd years now. The gov here (Spain) gives me tons of paper; I photograph it and then leave it and have them print it out when needed. Outside that I have not needed paper since the ipad. Why do other people?
- throwanem 10y ago
  Cheaper to hang photo prints than iPads.
- jpna66dd 10y ago
  Doing business: get paperwork, print paperwork, sign it, scan it, email it back.
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    Yes, but that is one printer for my company of 400+ people. It seems people are buying a lot more printers than just that.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Lots of places (authorities etc) require you to leave a physical paper that is signed and that they can put in a folder and store in an archive. Last time I needed this was yesterday, the local football association (yes soccer) requires the player list to be signed and given to referee before match. I make the list and usually print three copies: one for the referee, one for the opponent team and one for our own coach to check against players.
- ajdlinux 10y ago
  Some people prefer to read certain types of documents on paper. At work I've occasionally printed out slabs of reference material so I can go review it with a pen at the cafe across the road.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  I need to print out things every so often. Things like official notices to my tenants, concert tickets, forms to be mailed to various government agencies. I don't own a printer though, I just use the own at work. I'm there five days a week anyway. I also do all my mailing from work, which is more convenient than trying to do it from home on the weekend.
cannonball 10y ago
Happened here as well. HP carts are $460 and the printer is only $400, so we use 3rd party replacements which are $150.
scotu 10y ago
Well, on my mom Windows 10 pc hp software asked her if the cartridge was pirate (unofficial?). Well, actually it was original, the only thing is that I'm keeping an empty color cartridge instead of replacing it since I only use black... I'm wondering wtf happened there
DavideNL 10y ago
Slightly offtopic, but, I've been using a HP printer for the past years (Photosmart D7360) and am also VERY annoyed, one example: whenever one of my color cartridges is past it's expiry date i can't print in black and white. Even though the black cartridge is brand new. I first have to go buy a new color cartridge (which i don't use) and then i can print in black again. The warning message says something like "if you print with an outdated cartridge it may damage the printer". seriously, will never buy a HP printer again.
- brassic 10y ago
  Most colour printers never print in just black and white. They always need a bit of yellow: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/18/AR2005101801663.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10...
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    That's laser printers
    - cantrevealname 10y ago
      That anti-counterfeiting measure (secret yellow dots encoding a serial number) was originally on color copiers. Then it got extended to color laser printers. Do we really know that it hasn't been extended to ink jets as well? I think the grandparent has a legitimate observation. It would explain why you need to have working color cartridges to be able to print in black and white. (It's obvious that paper money is not going to be counterfeited in black and white, but maybe they decided to hide serial numbers on all printouts, not just color printouts.)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
fred_is_fred 10y ago
I'm not sure HP is smart enough to do this nefariously.
bArray 10y ago
I think this calls for a cheap open source printer to be made. Nothing complex is needed initially, just black and white with low running costs. In reality, any liquid that stains the paper of a given consistency should be fine. It shouldn't be costing this much to replace ink.
- imaginenore 10y ago
  There are cheap black and white printers with very low running costs. Laser printers. There have been attempts at open sourcing inkjet printers: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8542 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8542 (2011)
  - bArray 10y ago
    That open source one is slow and low-res, I'm sure we can do better than that. The alternative to close-source, high-cost shouldn't be crap and slow.
- userbinator 10y ago
  You can buy separate inkjet printheads intended for industrial high-volume printing applications and build the rest from parts salvaged from other printers. Very low running cost, but also low-resolution, and those printheads are not cheap. Alternatively, reverse-engineer existing printers to be able to use them with your own firmware that doesn't care what cartridges are in it.
  - gtaylor 10y ago
    Just to make sure I'm getting this right, your suggestions are to: #1) Build your own printer. #2) Write your own firmware. These don't seem like good options at all unless you've got lots of time to burn on something like this.
    - prodigal_erik 10y ago
      I'm reminded of "The technology involved in making something properly invisible is so mind-bogglingly complex that 999,999,999 times out of a billion it's simpler just to take the thing away and do without it." There are things I'd like to build, but a printer is so likely to work badly that I'd probably just not print stuff instead of trying.
snarfy 10y ago
For $69 it's easy enough to buy a different printer brand. I buy a new ink cartridge and put it in my old printer and it doesn't work. Why should I assume the problem is the new ink cartridge and not the old printer?
userbinator 10y ago
Because of this sudden influx of complaints, it didn’t take long to trace the “failures” to a HP firmware update that was released during the spring. I wonder how long it'll be until someone hacks it and releases a firmware that has the checks patched out. I vaguely remember this being done for a few other chipped-cartridge printers many years ago, although that was more intended for CIS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system ) where it makes no sense for the printer to keep thinking it's using small cartridges.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Patching the firmware might be possible, but 99.42 % of consumers and corporate users won't be doing such things even if the instruction is provided to them on some Web page.
bluesign 10y ago
any hard evidence about pre-programmed date on firmware? I think this is evil and smart, - people would by printers - some unofficial ink cartridge market will add good reviews etc (low printing cost) - increased cartridge sales for HP after set date Sounds more like, unofficial iPhone cables not charging, but smarter (possibly illegal though) edit: some google search reveals[1] more like firmware update at September 13 (auto update), then pre-set date. Pretty much like Apple and third party cable update. edit2: More I read, I start to see 3rd party cartidge vendors didn't implement the chipset on cartridge fully compatible, instead they went easy way around. Third party ink vendor says: "We do not yet have an updated chipset that will work with this new firmware version. . Customers can expect cartridge replacements with updated chipsets to be available in two to three weeks, possibly longer." [1] http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-locks-out-remanufactured-cartridges-2/ http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-lock...
Steeeve 10y ago
I've had nothing but great success using third party ink with Epson printers. Every two-three years I buy a new epson printer and either a continuous ink system or refillable cartridges. I never worry about the kids printing too much or the print cartridge getting dry and clogging. Epson gets used a lot as a base in the third party space - for things like T-shirt printers and other textile based printing. The print heads are reliable and accurate.
- tamana 10y ago
  Why do you buy so many printers?
  - Steeeve 10y ago
    I don't consider one every two-three years a lot. I buy one whenever I run out of ink.
froh42 10y ago
Such behaviour is the reason I threw out a perfectly working HP OfficeJet one day and will never buy a single HP printer in my life. In the OfficeJet in question I only used genuine cartridges, but every few year it would stop receiving black and white faxes because (the nearly full) color cartidge was passing its expiry date - forcing me to throw away the full color cartridge and buying a new one.
- PieterH 10y ago
  That is so corrupt. HP deserve a total boycott.
  - brightball 10y ago
    How is this not a class action lawsuit?
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      Either (a) you most likely agreed to an arbitration clause when purchasing the printer or (b) customers don't care enough. Or both. My money is on the second one. Customers are cheap and lazy. If their printer breaks, they go buy a new $40 one instead of doing research and finding a quality one for a few hundred. "What does this $300 laser do that this $40 inkjet doesn't!?" You mean besides last longer, actually work when you need it to, and not have nozzles that clog up? People continuing to purchase cheap PoS printers and just accept that "printers break after a year; get a new one" is what allows this nonsense to keep happening.
      - breakingcups 10y ago
        Those arbitration clauses mean nothing in the EU.
- flyinghamster 10y ago
  Join the club. At my office we had an OfficeJet, and it "expired" a printhead. It won't even allow you to SCAN unless the printhead is replaced. No more HP for me. Never again.
threepipeproblm 10y ago
I hope HP can prevent all their future customers from talking to informed parties, or reading informed reviews. Seems rather self destructive of them.
josefresco 10y ago
Not sure if it was a time bomb, but HP does have an "auto update" feature that could seem like a time bomb. We got nailed by this with our HP 8610. Were using 3rd party cartridges with much success for months. Last week my wife had a huge (for us) print job and encountered an annoying bug (prints blank sheets every other print). Updated the firmware hoping it would fix the problem. Next thing we know, cartridge error. Spent 3-4 hours researching how to downgrade firmware with no luck. No mentioned of new Sept 13 firmware on any HP driver website that I found. 3rd party is shipping us new cartridges for free, but it will be 2 weeks. Had to buy another printer. Die in a fire HP.
- 83457 10y ago
  Are you printing in color?
  - josefresco 10y ago
    Yes.
- userbinator 10y ago
  The fact that a printer even needs "firmware upgrades" should be a big turn-off, because inkjets have been around for decades; they're not a bleeding-edge technology with many unknowns, they're relatively mature and essentially all bugs should've been found and fixed long ago. From what I understand, most inkjets are pretty dumb devices in that they just accept raster graphics and spray the pixels onto the page. A lot of them can't even do ASCII/text-mode anymore. Maybe they're now deliberately leaving bugs in so they can ostensibly "fix" them while also doing anti-user things like cartridge blacklisting...
- qilo 10y ago
  There is a firmware upgrade for this model on HP site: version R1547A from Mar 22, 2016. There wasn't new firmware releases on September 13, it's the date hardcoded into previously released firmwares as the date when to activate this "feature".
dec0dedab0de 10y ago
As an aside, does anyone remember the last time they were happy with ANY HP product? Everytime I see that logo I get chills knowing what a pain in the ass it's going to be. Edit: I am specifically thinking about HPSM, and HPNA here.
- tiatia 10y ago
  HP48?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  I'm using 820, 840 and 725 laptops which in my opinion offer a good balance of price and performance. At least they did when I last bought them and I compared to what I could find on the market. There's something funny with some Linux kernel versions, which shows up as kacpid hogging up a lot of CPU time, but you can disable it by echoing disable to the /proc filesystem. You may find such issues with very many laptops. But the physical and ergonomic things are very OK, considering the price, with these laptops.
- gaius 10y ago
  HP 3000's and 9000's were decent. Still use my HP 12C too!
- sveiss 10y ago
  The hardware labs at uni had a couple of ancient (to us -- probably 80s hardware being used in the mid-2000s?) HP logic analyzers with Z80 bus probes. They turned out to be much more reliable and easier to use than the modern USB pod things also provided which plugged into a Windows box to display the analysis traces.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  I have an HP Chromebook 13" that's been pretty good so far. That's an official collaboration with Google being the driving force behind the specs and HP being responsible for the manufacturing, though, so it isn't really comparable to their printer line.
- proactivesvcs 10y ago
raphaelh 10y ago
So what is a good brand of laser printers that work well under Linux and accepts unofficial toners?
- dsr_ 10y ago
  Brother. Look for: - BRScript3 (their clone of PostScript) - ethernet port - a "D" on the end means it can print on both sides, duplexing. It's slower but oh so much more convenient. Printers with all these features start around $100.
  - pfooti 10y ago
    Yup. I have had two brother printers so far. The first was about 8 years old when the paper feed became unreliable, so I replaced it with a newer (color) model. Prints great, takes whatever cartridges fit, works fine with Linux, windows and osx. Haven't tried network printing from Android or iOS yet. Disclaimer: I probably print about five pages a month, so it hardly sees extensive use. I also don't print photo quality stuff, mostly role playing maps and characters for gaming sessions. But under those constraints, it's been great.
  - wyclif 10y ago
    This is great actionable info, thanks! I just googled around for printers with these features, and learned something I didn't know.
  - Tempest1981 10y ago
    Good service too. Brother sent out a Pitney Bowes repair person free of charge for my $350 color laser printer.
  - PieterH 10y ago
    Haha, broscript... Sorry, thought I was on Reddit.
- PieterH 10y ago
  Cheap Samsung B&W around $60-70. I've used two over 5 years, very good.
dinnouti 10y ago
The Amazon Basic is my go to brand, their are cheap and functional. I wish they get into printers.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  That would be amazing if Amazon released store brand printers with no nonsensical ink policies. They would wreak havoc on the entrenched players. Amazon could pull it off.
t3ra 10y ago
Canon printers with a "Continuous Supply Ink Tank" FTW. Now they even have official versions of these tanks.
crististm 10y ago
I guess it's time due for a rerun of Ken Thomson's reverse engineering of Mergenthaler Linotron. http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pdf http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pd...
neotek 10y ago
I don't know how the DRM works on ink cartridges, but if all the off-brand cartridges just use the same mass-produced cloned DRM "chip" (or whatever it is), it not possible this is actually caused by a certificate expiring rather than an intentionally malicious act by HP? I really don't have any clue what I'm talking about, just wondering if there's any alternative cause whatsoever.
- manarth 10y ago
  If the intent isn't to stop generics, why have DRM on an ink cartridge at all? Even if this instance is due to HP making a mistake, such as forgetting a certificate renewal, the intent is there right from the beginning, by using the DRM in the first place.
- rincebrain 10y ago
  If it only happens on printers that have received a certain firmware update, then it's unlikely to be a cert expiration on the cartridge side.
jmporcel 10y ago
Reverse engineering is a must in this case. I cannot be accepted that you got an HP printer and now you cannot use generic ink. I never liked HP but now, no way I will consider to buy HP products at all.
dre85 10y ago
Is there any legitimate reason to be buying an inkjet versus a laser? I would personally never buy an inkjet again in my life regardless of the brand.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  If you need occasional scanning, its the way to go. I buy a cheap all in one every two years when target/Walmart clears them out. Last year I bought 3 for $20/EA.
- mysterypie 10y ago
  Yes there is a reason: To print high-quality photos. I have an ink jet for photos (admittedly rarely needed these days) and a black&white laser for everything else. Also, part of the problem is that lot of people don't realize how expensive it is to run an ink jet and how massively cheaper a laser is in the long run. The average person needing a printing goes to the store and sees a laser for around $200 and an ink jet for $49, and buys the ink jet, thinking it's a better deal.
jasonkostempski 10y ago
This isn't even remotely surprising. in early 2000's work had 5 heavy duty color laser printers from HP to print B&W letters on. All carts stopped working after a certain page count. Even if the color wasn't used it would decrement the counter. We threw out THOUSANDS of full color toner cartridges.
- MrTonyD 10y ago
  Same experience here. I smiled as I threw out my HP color laser which had probably cost me over ten thousand dollars over its life. I've saved time, money, and customers by throwing all my HP printers away. (I didn't even sell them - I didn't want to give it away to some unsuspecting victim.)
83457 10y ago
I gave up on inkjet printers a long time ago. Is there any justification for using inkjet over laser for black and white?
noonespecial 10y ago
The best way to make a difference against this nastyness realistically available to us is probably the "one star review". And when you do, resist writing 10 paragraphs about all the times HP has ever wronged you or a long story about how much you needed the printout when it refused to print. One star, one sentence. "Expires full inks after only x months forcing you to buy new ones when you don't need them." I know for certain these short, sweet reviews change the buying behavior of my non-techie family. Make a difference. Write a product review today.
- cantrevealname 10y ago
  Excellent advice, but just one problem. For most sites, you had to have bought the product to submit a review, or to submit a credible review ("verified purchaser"). I personally stopped buying anything from HP years ago. So HN readers and techies in general are in the ironic position of having better judgment about the products but less able to influence the manufacturers. It's like hoping to see informed advice from doctors posting on a homeopathic website. The doctors are not buying homeopathic potions.
  - petra 10y ago
    Even if it's not a verified-purchase , it's still counts in Amazon's count of percentage of 1 star reviews.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      On principle I hate the idea of encouraging people to submit reviews for products that they haven't purchased. It's a crime worse than time-bombing generic printer cartridges and makes online reviews basically worthless. I don't give a shit about your moral stand against HP. Give me an honest review of a product you own or don't say anything.
      - tamana 10y ago
        You think sharing honest information to help people is worse than lying for profit?
schlowmo 10y ago
Old, but still so true: "Why I Believe Printers Were Sent From Hell To Make Us Miserable" http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers Had this one printed out (oh that irony) and taped it to our office wall when we had to deal with crappy printers on a daily basis working for a big DAX company.
- kawsper 10y ago
  There is also this great short from CollegeHumor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM
nine_k 10y ago
Stop buying dirt-cheap printers that are sold at a loss. These are designed to be paid off by expensive toner / ink. These are designed to make you waste the supplies if you don't use them up fast enough. They are designed to reject third-party cheaper supplies. Pay a couple hundred more upfront for a no-bullshit device. I hope those still exist.
- kentt 10y ago
  I agree. Another option is to research which printers can trivially have their bullshit disabled. I bought a $30 printer about 5 years ago that I refill with bottles of toner for $2. The 'modding' involved a piece of tape over sensor.
- jest3r1 10y ago
  Ya, it's our fault for looking for a deal? How can you guarantee that paying a couple hundred more upfront would save us all from this pre meditated corporate gluttony? Stop buying printers from companies that build in mechanisms to purposely brick them. Buying a high-end HP is just as risky in my opinion, based on this story. Cannon is another company to avoid. They just settled a similar potential class action: http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-actions-over-pixma-printers/ http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-actions-o...
  - dfox 10y ago
    The problem with avoiding Canon is that essentially any desktop laser printer on the market is in fact largely Canon's product (and the best of them in terms of reliability and TCO are little more than Canon made print engine in a plastic box). On the other hand I have reasonably good experiences with OKI and Brother LED printers. These printers tend to be reasonably cheap (I've got OKI multifunction on sale for ~150 EUR), are full Postcript/PCL printers and supplies are reasonably cheap too, both original and third-party.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  How do you know the more expensive printer is a no bullshit device?
ausjke 10y ago
There is a little chip inside the cartridge, EPSON's chip was cloned in China so you can use the third-party inks "safely", however it's not the case for HP. I had not bought any HP products for 10+ years.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
I'm not a legal expert, but I want to believe that there is some law preventing manufacturers from sabotaging their own products in order to extract more coin from your consumers. I want to believe...
- tomcorrigan 10y ago
  The conduct described in the article is definitely unlawful in Australia.
Ericson2314 10y ago
Well, I'm glad I basically don't need to print anymore. Not sure what luck got me here, but I sure as hell aren't going back.
legohead 10y ago
For anyone tired of paying so much for ink replacements, look into a CISS (Continuous Ink Supply System) [1]. I got one for our Epson and it far outperforms ink cartridges and even the replacement ink is cheap. I've had some issues with the printer recognizing the cartridges, but after fiddling around enough it eventually does. It's definitely worth the effort. [1] https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-Printer-Cartridge/dp/B01G701EBK https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-Printer-...
sly010 10y ago
Here is a (probably worthless) idea: Create 1 or 2 good, serviceable network printer and experiment with different business models like subscriptions or pay-as-you-print, where the printer manufacturer _owns_ the printer an office or home just rents it. In such a model, the companies incentives would align with the users values: - Cheaper printing per page - Less overhead on distribution - No artificial costs and limitations - Generally better printer: - More serviceable - Better software - Long term support - More environmentally friendly Most people I know doesn't own a printer and just use the office printer anyway, so why not make the office printer just-work? Edit: formatting
- evan_ 10y ago
  That sort of business model- leasing- is pretty common with copiers/printers already.
  - sly010 10y ago
    Yes, but that's the opposite end of the market (e.g. industrial pronting, very large size or volume). I am wondering if there is something in the middle.
    - new299 10y ago
      Photocopier/Printer leasing is common for small and medium sized businesses too. If you google for photocopier leasing you'll find a huge number of options.
- hlandau 10y ago
  Another possibility is still to sell printers, but have the cartridges produced by a completely separate company. Have the cartridges also conform to an open, published specification which any company (printer maker or cartridge maker) is free to implement. The printer maker will be forced to sell printers based on their cost, not as a loss leader.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
How I get screwed: My HP printer will occasionally print a black-and-white page using all three colors of ink. Discovered this one day when I rubbed a fresh page and it smeared three colors. They call it 'wear leveling' or something. But we all know it means 'using up your expensive color ink instead of your cheap black ink'. What a crock.
- ythl 10y ago
  That's why my HP printer only has a black cartridge. The socket for the color cartridge is empty.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Yeah the problem is that some of them don't allow you to do this anymore. Overall I've started to buy B&W only laser printers and I buy a new printer when the toner runs out. You can find Samsung entry level laser printers with a toner good for 300-500 pages on Amazon for about 30£ on sale that's cheaper than buying a toner. 1st world problems for sure but this is beyond stupid.
    - PieterH 10y ago
      The replacement toner is worth buying too, lasts some thousands of pages. I love my cheap Samsung lasers.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        I bought it once it but it costs about 50-60 GBP (i had printers for as low as 17 GBP on sale) and it only doubles the page count if you use it all the time, once you let the tones sit they seem to degrade quite quickly for some reason.
      - yborg 10y ago
        I have bad news for you. http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-printer-business http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-print...
Roboprog 10y ago
Somebody mentioned Brother printers elsewhere. I replaced my HP laser with a Brother laser a while back (just printing "stuff", not photos) I replaced my black cart on the HP (2600n) with a 3rd party product, and got away with it. However, when I replaced the color carts (one ran out), which I was forced to, since it wouldn't print B&W at all otherwise, the printer detected the alien carts, and immediately refused to clean itself or something - I started getting black streaks on my black text, even though the black cart worked just fine for months the day before. Bye bye, HP, you ain't what you used to be.
- richdougherty 10y ago
  Here's a tip for Brother printers. When the printer asks you to replace the toner and stops printing, you can override it with a setting. The default setting disables printing until you replace the toner. You can change the setting to keep printing until the toner really runs out. Forcing you to stop printing is naughty of Brother, but at least there's a setting so you can keep printing—if you're clever enough to find it.
jldugger 10y ago
There has to be enough former HP engineers to find one willing to answer this one definitively.
Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
I bought a Lexmark laser printer about 12 years ago. A few days ago I bought my very first replacement toner cartridge for it - until this point I have been using the included cartridge, which is probably a half-capacity one. As you can guess, I do a lot of printing. The box for the cartridge actually says that it will: 1) Only dispense a certain amount of toner before the printer will stop printing and that there will still be some toner left in the cartridge when this happens. 2) Update the firmware on the printer so that it won't accept 3rd-party cartridges. 3) Stuff about me agreeing to return the used cartridge to Lexmark for recycling since I bought a "return program" cartridge. Lexmark sold the cartridge for a reduced price, returning it for recycling is my end of the bargain. They didn't use these exact words, but it was very clearly written and seemed like it would be pretty understandable to a regular person. On one hand, I have to give Lexmark props for full disclosure that doesn't hide behind a click-through license or any weasel-words/legalese. On the other hand, changing the printer after purchase to lock the owner into Lexmark cartridges seems kind of low. I'm really not sure how I feel about this though. I don't mind buying the manufacturer's cartridges or packing up the old one to be returned. But at the same time I'm worried that, in another 12 years, Lexmark might no longer be making cartridges for this printer and I'll have to throw the printer away.
zimbatm 10y ago
Is there any brand of printer that that doesn't do that kind of thing?
XCSme 10y ago
Just get a CISS printer. I got an Epson L300 when I started college (4 years ago) and the printer is still going strong and I still have one full bottle of black ink (it came with 3x black ink bottles in the box). It was about $150 when I bought it and I spent $0 on ink.
ClayFerguson 10y ago
If this can be proven, and a class action lawsuit is filed, this would spell the end of HP. I don't think they would have any choice but to declare bankruptcy.
mey 10y ago
Can anyone recommend a good Soho printer at this point?
smhg 10y ago
Reminds me of the last HP printer I owned and the priceless reviews people wrote about it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY True, it was cheap, but the way in which it malfunctioned was so much over the top that I'll never buy HP printers again.
animex 10y ago
Also, don't forget to mark "helpful" the most popular reviews that align with your opinion of HP's current practices.
roflchoppa 10y ago
I feel like we have this discussion every week.
dangjc 10y ago
In southeast Asia, you can get an Epson L300 tank printer for about $170 USD. Each tank refill costs $10 and lasts for 10,000 pages. This line of printers isn't offered in the US. It's market segmentation. I think it's indicative of the level of oligopoly in the printer industry that they can segment this well and get away with it.
rihac 10y ago
second sneaky thing I have heard about them recently, there was also a big thing about them disabling the printers when you unsubscribe from the instant ink package.
Myce 10y ago
http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-unofficial-non-hp-ink-cartridges-printers-80457/ http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-unof... @mods That is the original source HP also made a statement about this: http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-responds-pre-programmed-failure-date-non-hp-cartridges-80467/ http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-responds-pre-programm...
JitterAtt 10y ago
Update here, HP admits to doing this intentionally and makes excuses as to why... http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-cartridges http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-cart...
datguy111 10y ago
Real simple: if you don't like it, go buy another brand printer. That's the beauty of democracy: you're free to buy another printer/ink just like they're allowed to protect their proprietary assets! Bunch of whiners....
datguy111 10y ago
Real simple: if you don't like it, go buy another brand printer. That's the beauty of democracy: you're free to buy another printer/ink just like they're allowed to protect their proprietary assets! Bunch of whiners....

438 points by defenestration 10y ago

I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Printer makers use the razor/razorblade model for consumables, where the printer's dirt cheap, but the ink costs an arm and a leg. This is just the latest tactic for getting people to go OEM only. At this point, I long for the good old days, when Canon embraced 3rd party ink vendors. Canon's cartridges were cheap because the print heads were a separate, replaceable, item, and the third parties were more than free to put out really interesting inks, like sets of greyscale for making really nice black and white prints.

chrisseaton 10y ago
I never understood the razor/razorblade analogy. A razor handle without a blade is just a shaped bit of plastic or metal, without any working or moving parts. The precision engineering is all in the blade. It'd be weird if the handle wasn't cheap and the blades more expensive. But a printer really is a non-trivial set of electronics and working parts, so it is more surprising that they're so cheap.
- logical42 10y ago
  Safety razors are very cheap. I believe the OP is referring to the profit model of companies like Gillette, extracting larger margins on a more consistent basis in trade for a marginal amount of ease of use for the consumer.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Sanddancer 10y ago
  Razor/razor blade is a marketing strategy. Sell/give the base at a low or free cost, and make the money on selling the consumables at a significant markup. The razor itself also has to be engineered for durability, with springs, latches, etc. While it's a comparatively simple part, it needs to be rugged to last a few years in a moisture filled environment where it's liable to be dropped and otherwise abused. Similarly, the print heads are the precision part in a printer. Drive components in the printer itself -- motor, the belts, rollers, etc, are all pretty cheap and easy at this point; the same print engine will be used over several series of printers. The print heads on the other hand, have piezoelectric parts and/or heat elements that have to be very quick and accurate to do a good job. Both cases, while there is definitely some engineering in them, it doesn't rise to the cost levels we see them being sold at.
- scarecrowbob 10y ago
  As another poster points out, modern blades are different than older style blades where the blade was just a thin piece of sharp metal. I have one from my great grandfather... the blades are the definitely the cheap, disposable part. That's the model which the idea refers to.
  - sitharus 10y ago
    In modern money, my razor handle cost ~us$70, but the blades code around 20c each.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- Spooky23 10y ago
  That's because you've probably grown up under this regime. Older style razors are the opposite. My dad has probably spent $100 in shaving supplies over the last 30 years. I got suckered into Gillette and could probably buy a Honda Accord for the money I've dumped into this crap.
  - boodm 10y ago
    Change that today! /r/wicked_edge You don't have to use the fancy soaps / brushes to wet shave, but they do help. Buy a handle (~$25) and blades are dirt cheap QTY 100 for ~$12 - 20.
reustle 10y ago
I haven't really thought about it recently, but (parts of) Asia seems to have this whole printer ink thing figured out. Just about every printer I see in Thailand has the tubes coming out which go to bottles similar to this [1]. There are little refill stations in malls, and that seems to be the standard. No overpriced OEM cartridges, just a straight ink reservoir. [1] http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bJKz4lWVpfo/S9p02XqXZqI/AAAAAAAADEI/Q_JiR9Oz9sw/ciss-printer-2_thumb.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bJKz4lWVpfo/S9p02XqXZqI/AAAAAAAADEI/Q_...
- gm-conspiracy 10y ago
  ..and they have modified food-grade inks so you can print on latte foam or biscuits/cookies. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-offered-edible-ink-Patent-CE-foam-coffee-cake-ice-cream-Flatbed-printer/32718241366.html?spm=2114.40010208.4.18.SjqZTC https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-offered-edible-ink-P... I am assuming it is Epson parts, based on the 1440 dpi dimension
- ChoHag 10y ago
  That's basically how it happens in all the countries which have a healthy respect for the law.

tener 10y ago

I wonder how this will play out. This should get the attention of consumer rights watchdog at least, but possibly also class action suite.

pmoriarty 10y ago

Are there any open hardware printers in the making? I seem to recall some open hardware cell phone projects. No reason a similar effort couldn't be directed towards making an open printer, is there? Also, it might not even require making a full open hardware printer, but just some key circuitry and maybe some drivers, right?

stephengillie 10y ago
I'm pretty sure there are more open 3D printer projects, than open paper printer projects. Which just reinforces the differences between 2D and 3D printing.
midnitewarrior 10y ago
HP and others have a lot of patents in that space with an army of lawyers to defend them unfortunately. It would have to avoid using anything coming close to these patents...
- Harelin 10y ago
  Patents expire, and printers are fairly old technology, so perhaps there is to be a printer revolution in the not so distant future?
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    Unfortunately, the inapplicability of intellectual property doesn't seem to matter much. They probably wouldn't use an expired patent in a suit, but many of these places just make minor tweaks and file for a new patent on the "new invention". There's enough grey area that you have to go to court to hash out whether or not the technology is infringing. Opposing IP lawyers working for one of the largest media companies in the world have openly told an associate that while the thing they C&D'd her on may have had a good chance to be ruled non-infringing, she should comply with the C&D anyway since she would be financially ruined by a lawsuit, win or lose (realistically, she wouldn't be able to win because she'd run out of money WAY before the case even approached a conclusion -- one of big companies' favorite strategies is to "starve out" their legal opponents by making the case as expensive and convoluted as possible).

eggy 10y ago

I haven't owned and HP printer in a while, but this article will stop me from making an HP printer my next purchase if and when I need one. What a dirty, cheap tactic by HP! They'll fire some low-wage earner worker and a mid-level manager over this, while the real culprit stays at his job I'm sure. Definitely class-action, and even criminal, no? Consumer fraud, deception? Third-party replacements are running fine in my Samsung and Canon, without a complaint.

azarias 10y ago
HP just agreed to buy Samsung's printing business. https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-printer-business-for-1-05-billion/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-prin...
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Eh, those were terrible anyway. I have an ML2525w which should be wireless, but in reality almost never joins the wifi network on boot reliably like all of the ESP8266s I have. I have to re-run setup on it all the time, and half the time it doesn't get detected by the tool. I gave up long ago and just hard-wired it. If I follow the exact turn-on procedure it likes and wait for it to be fully settled before attempting to print, it generally will start printing within a minute or so. Honestly, I'm so done with printers. If I really need something, I can run to the 24hr kinkos or the office center in my complex. Owning a printer in 2016 seems kind of silly.
  - eggy 10y ago
    I've had no connectivity issues with my Samsung color laser printer. I need it here in SE Asia, since bureaucracy still reigns and paper vs. electronics is not quite there yet. It reminds me of Brooklyn in the 70s for that matter - the DMV comes to mind! Love my ESP8266; did you year about the ESP32 yet? I am trying to port Wasp Lisp/Wasp VM to it for networking (not pentesting) not for IOT, but creating a mesh network of sorts here in the village I have been staying in East Java - no Kinkos or Starbucks here!
10y ago

Animats 10y ago

There's the Epson Eco-Tank series. Ink is in four bottles at the side of the machine, good for about 4000-6000 pages. Refill with Epson ink bottles or (a bit more messily) from bulk ink. The printer costs about $279. You do have to clean the print heads occasionally. That's the price of long life print heads.

m3adow 10y ago
How is the Linux support for Epson printers? The big thing for HP is their good support for Linux.
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  "Good" Linux support means being able to just download a PPD and shove it into CUPS. AFAIK HP is the only one that requires their own crappy GUI on top.
  - tome 10y ago
    I've had a couple of HP printers on Linux and they didn't require a GUI.
  - lvillani 10y ago
    Personally, I never ever had to use hplip's GUI tool, except for configuring wireless printing. After doing so, I could uninstall it and use bog-standard CUPS.
  - babuskov 10y ago
    At my previous job we installed dozens of different HP printers on Linux. We never needed to launch a GUI.
  - gmazza 10y ago
    The only time I had to use (admittedly annoying) HP GUI installer is for scanner part of HP CM1015 MFP. Printer part of the same MFP worked fine with just normal CUPS.
- 10y ago

bedros 10y ago

just few days back (possible Sept 13th) I got the following error message One or more cartridges appear to be damaged. Remove them and replace with new cartridges I was using non-hp ink cartridges. I've been HP customer for 20 years, and I'm done with HP for their dishonesty.

chris_wot 10y ago

If this is affecting printers in Australia, then HP are going to learn a very costly lesson in ethics. The ACCC will have to do an investigation, but the instant they confirm this has occurred they will face stiff fines for third line forcing and anti-competitive behaviour distorting the market.

shoo 10y ago
i'm in australia and bought some cheap fuji-xerox laser printer a year or so ago. non-oem ink refills are far cheaper than oem ones. a large component of the cost of non-oem ink refills is getting a replacement chip that counts how many times you can print before it claims it needs refilling. you can buy more of these chips along with bulk ink refills. it's like DRM for ink or something.
supercoder 10y ago
There are no fines large enough the ACCC can serve that will stop them from this practice. ACCC is pretty toothless again big companies like this.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I dunno, they stopped Apple and HP from selling "extended warranties".
  - supercoder 10y ago
    What ? Apple definitely sell extended warranties.
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      No, they do not. Not in Australia.
      - supercoder 10y ago
        http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Sneakos 10y ago

If you're gonna do something sketchy like this, at least be smart about it. HP could learn from Apple...

woliveirajr 10y ago

Laser OKI color printer isn't different. Each toner (CMYK) has a life based on printed pages and stop working even if there's toner inside. No third part supplier, because the printer won't recognize it. And it's useless torefill it if you don't change some chip in each toner. And then the fusor will also stop after some number of pages, no matter if the quality was still good. To replace it you spend more than you paid for the printer. So OKI was in my banned list, now HP joins it.

izacus 10y ago
Which OKI do you have? Since I'm running my C301dn on 3rd party toners for awhile now.
- woliveirajr 10y ago
  Oki C110.
- pingec 10y ago
  I also have the C301dn and am very satisfied with it compared to previous printers (inkjets). Works when you need it even after months of non-usage and toner replacements are cheap off ebay. The only thing that worries me is the drum unit / fuser / belt life as I have no idea what happens when they reach 0%. There is a hardware hack though to reset those as well.
  - woliveirajr 10y ago
    I couldn't find hard resets to my drum unit/fuser. No soft ones too. Here the replacement costs more than I would pay for a new printer. And, what makes me sick, the quality was as good as brand new, so the "we limit the amount of printings because we care about the quality loss" yada-yada is pure #@$#*!$@
vlehto 10y ago
Life based on printed pages would be OK. If you actually print the number pages you promise, I can compare the total costs of cartridges and printers. But I think some models also have timer. After 6 months or year, the printer starts to complain that the ink has "dried up". To prohibit you from saving up that unicorn blood by printing less. By banned list is HP, Canon and I'm very cautious about Samsung.

kpil 10y ago

How is this legal? As a side note, HP sells a (vintage) 256 MB DDR2 RAM module for $600 (USD) for it's new printers.

nightcracker 10y ago
Hint: it isn't.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Surely depends on jurisdiction.
Roboprog 10y ago
Big companies can get away with all kinds of "fecal production" in the US. We're not yet China or Mexico, but we sure as hell ain't the EU, either. All your legislative bases are belong to us, or some such rot.

denzell 10y ago

how is this legal? It's akin to a car shutting down if a non genuine part is used.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Which is the future now that there's talk of the car's computer checking crypto signatures on each part and refusing to start the engine if they don't match. Heard of this concept at least once here on HN.
Spooky23 10y ago
Tesla is already doing this, iirc. As self-driving cars become a thing, you'll see way more of this, "for safety".
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  In the case of automated multi-ton death machines moving at high-speed near other people, that seems totally reasonable. You shouldn't be allowed to tinker with your automated car and risk everyone else's lives.
  - tamana 10y ago
    No, it's not reasonable. Government should set standard, free market competes to follow start dates with best quality and lowest cost. Wht should Tesla be able to prevent me from replacing a bad Tesla part with a better/safer third-party part?
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      As long as it's advertised that way upfront, then I don't see why not. Tesla is not going to be the only automated car manufacturer. Today, you can buy cars that only take specialty parts. You can also buy cars that take standard parts. I'm sure it will be that way with automated cars too. Same way that you should be able to buy an iPhone with all of its non-standard quirks. As for safety, it depends on the specific parts. An automated car is a complete integrated system. Once people start swapping parts, the test-matrix to ensure safety explodes. People modifying the driving software in their own cars, for example, is definitely a no-go. (And modifying any software at all should be prohibited unless the driving and entertainment computers are completely air-gapped.)

azarias 10y ago

Can confirm, this happened to our HP 6830 printer on September 13. Extremely annoyed because we only bought this printer in June, and was working fine with a replacement ink. I was actually researching legal precedents to this, and learned that Lexmark has been fighting something like this in court for over a decade[1]. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after-failing-to-use-copyright-trademark-law-to-stop-printer-ink-resellers-lexmark-finally-scores-victory-with-patent-law.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after...

PieterH 10y ago
Yeah, patent law, recourse of the scoundrels.

proctor 10y ago

This kind of reminds me of how some of these companies disable the scanner portion of "All-in-One" type printers if the printer portion is out of ink.

frou_dh 10y ago

Inkjet printers have been simply the most loathsome category of electronics I've encountered. Concluded some years ago to never own one again. Garbage! Zero tolerance!

henrygrew 10y ago

Very dishonest practice from HP i'm never going to use any of their products again.

gaius 10y ago
It's very sad - I am old enough to remember when HP was synonymous with quality and doing the right thing for both customers and employees. Hewlett and Packard (the founders) would never have pulled a stunt like this. Fiorina destroyed that legacy almost overnight.
- proactivesvcs 10y ago
  And I'd buy their products from their reputation. I can't imagine they'll redeem themselves from such a long period of reprehensible policies and shoddy products.
- MrTonyD 10y ago
  I'm in Silicon Valley and I know someone working in their outsourcing group. HP has a "secret" office where they try to get all their development offshore. They will arrange travel visas to rotate people from other countries into hotels to work on projects. It is coordinated across the entire company in order to cut costs. I wish that we wouldn't allow such companies to sell in the United States (ie. companies that hide their income and employ offshore in order to avoid employing US employees. Such companies shouldn't be able to sell in the US.)

pearjuice 10y ago

Sadly, HP doesn't have a reality distortion field. Apple would have gotten away with this and some clever marketing.

ne01 10y ago

Liberate yourself from softwares/products like this! We used to own the stuff we paid for! Now it's like you pay to be the product. I think this problem is worse in software. Checkout fsf.org

imglorp 10y ago
Stallman was right...
- copperx 10y ago
  First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you...
  - tunap 10y ago
    Haha, no, they're always laughing at us. First and foremost they take the money. Then they force/trick you into loading 200MB of crap to get a kB driver loaded. Then they ignore you, except for the multiple, obfuscated spywares the driver bundle installed.
- prodigal_erik 10y ago
  No surprise, it was a printer vendor being buttheaded about their proprietary driver that partly motivated the GNU project.

pjc50 10y ago

I'm fairly sure this is illegal in the EU under one of the e-waste directives.

clydethefrog 10y ago
Yes, cartridges fall under the WEEE Directive. What do you think is the best way to enforce the rules on HP and make this action illegal? Contact the Member State authorities? Feel this should be enforced by the EU instead of national... gah, directives.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 10y ago
  First check if the offending printers are actually being sold in Europe! They might only be for the US market.
  - clydethefrog 10y ago
    Dutch retailer 123inkt was mostly responsible for finding this time bomb, so yes, definitely.

tdkl 10y ago

Does this also happens with laser toner cartridges ? I really have no idea why people even buy those inkjet printers anymore, price per page is lower with laser printers and prices even for a color laser are in sub 200€$ range.

clarry 10y ago
Laser sucks for printing photos.
- imglorp 10y ago
  Yeah but if you want documents and shelf life (toner doesn't dry out in a year) then lasers might be better for you.
  - dghughes 10y ago
    I think I'm on year three for my laser printer colour toner cartridges. I did have to swap out the black after two years maybe 2 1/2 but I ran it for six months with errors and warnings and pleading.
- tdkl 10y ago
  True although cost of printing photos on an inkjet is again much higher then getting them printed in a shop.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Is there a reason that Shutterfly or other similar services don't satisfy those needs? I try not to own things anymore unless I use them frequently (lessons learned after moving twice in Manhattan), and printing color photos definitely isn't a frequent need for me, or I suspect, for most people.
  - artursapek 10y ago
    Especially in Manhattan! You're always a few blocks away from a place that will do it for you for a reasonable price.

tluyben2 10y ago

Not trolling, but why do you use printers? I haven't used paper for 5 odd years now. The gov here (Spain) gives me tons of paper; I photograph it and then leave it and have them print it out when needed. Outside that I have not needed paper since the ipad. Why do other people?

throwanem 10y ago
Cheaper to hang photo prints than iPads.
jpna66dd 10y ago
Doing business: get paperwork, print paperwork, sign it, scan it, email it back.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Yes, but that is one printer for my company of 400+ people. It seems people are buying a lot more printers than just that.
ptaipale 10y ago
Lots of places (authorities etc) require you to leave a physical paper that is signed and that they can put in a folder and store in an archive. Last time I needed this was yesterday, the local football association (yes soccer) requires the player list to be signed and given to referee before match. I make the list and usually print three copies: one for the referee, one for the opponent team and one for our own coach to check against players.
ajdlinux 10y ago
Some people prefer to read certain types of documents on paper. At work I've occasionally printed out slabs of reference material so I can go review it with a pen at the cafe across the road.
CydeWeys 10y ago
I need to print out things every so often. Things like official notices to my tenants, concert tickets, forms to be mailed to various government agencies. I don't own a printer though, I just use the own at work. I'm there five days a week anyway. I also do all my mailing from work, which is more convenient than trying to do it from home on the weekend.

cannonball 10y ago

Happened here as well. HP carts are $460 and the printer is only $400, so we use 3rd party replacements which are $150.

scotu 10y ago

Well, on my mom Windows 10 pc hp software asked her if the cartridge was pirate (unofficial?). Well, actually it was original, the only thing is that I'm keeping an empty color cartridge instead of replacing it since I only use black... I'm wondering wtf happened there

DavideNL 10y ago

Slightly offtopic, but, I've been using a HP printer for the past years (Photosmart D7360) and am also VERY annoyed, one example: whenever one of my color cartridges is past it's expiry date i can't print in black and white. Even though the black cartridge is brand new. I first have to go buy a new color cartridge (which i don't use) and then i can print in black again. The warning message says something like "if you print with an outdated cartridge it may damage the printer". seriously, will never buy a HP printer again.

brassic 10y ago
Most colour printers never print in just black and white. They always need a bit of yellow: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/18/AR2005101801663.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10...
- kalleboo 10y ago
  That's laser printers
  - cantrevealname 10y ago
    That anti-counterfeiting measure (secret yellow dots encoding a serial number) was originally on color copiers. Then it got extended to color laser printers. Do we really know that it hasn't been extended to ink jets as well? I think the grandparent has a legitimate observation. It would explain why you need to have working color cartridges to be able to print in black and white. (It's obvious that paper money is not going to be counterfeited in black and white, but maybe they decided to hide serial numbers on all printouts, not just color printouts.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

fred_is_fred 10y ago

I'm not sure HP is smart enough to do this nefariously.

bArray 10y ago

I think this calls for a cheap open source printer to be made. Nothing complex is needed initially, just black and white with low running costs. In reality, any liquid that stains the paper of a given consistency should be fine. It shouldn't be costing this much to replace ink.

imaginenore 10y ago
There are cheap black and white printers with very low running costs. Laser printers. There have been attempts at open sourcing inkjet printers: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8542 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8542 (2011)
- bArray 10y ago
  That open source one is slow and low-res, I'm sure we can do better than that. The alternative to close-source, high-cost shouldn't be crap and slow.
userbinator 10y ago
You can buy separate inkjet printheads intended for industrial high-volume printing applications and build the rest from parts salvaged from other printers. Very low running cost, but also low-resolution, and those printheads are not cheap. Alternatively, reverse-engineer existing printers to be able to use them with your own firmware that doesn't care what cartridges are in it.
- gtaylor 10y ago
  Just to make sure I'm getting this right, your suggestions are to: #1) Build your own printer. #2) Write your own firmware. These don't seem like good options at all unless you've got lots of time to burn on something like this.
  - prodigal_erik 10y ago
    I'm reminded of "The technology involved in making something properly invisible is so mind-bogglingly complex that 999,999,999 times out of a billion it's simpler just to take the thing away and do without it." There are things I'd like to build, but a printer is so likely to work badly that I'd probably just not print stuff instead of trying.

snarfy 10y ago

For $69 it's easy enough to buy a different printer brand. I buy a new ink cartridge and put it in my old printer and it doesn't work. Why should I assume the problem is the new ink cartridge and not the old printer?

userbinator 10y ago

Because of this sudden influx of complaints, it didn’t take long to trace the “failures” to a HP firmware update that was released during the spring. I wonder how long it'll be until someone hacks it and releases a firmware that has the checks patched out. I vaguely remember this being done for a few other chipped-cartridge printers many years ago, although that was more intended for CIS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system ) where it makes no sense for the printer to keep thinking it's using small cartridges.

ptaipale 10y ago
Patching the firmware might be possible, but 99.42 % of consumers and corporate users won't be doing such things even if the instruction is provided to them on some Web page.

bluesign 10y ago

any hard evidence about pre-programmed date on firmware? I think this is evil and smart, - people would by printers - some unofficial ink cartridge market will add good reviews etc (low printing cost) - increased cartridge sales for HP after set date Sounds more like, unofficial iPhone cables not charging, but smarter (possibly illegal though) edit: some google search reveals[1] more like firmware update at September 13 (auto update), then pre-set date. Pretty much like Apple and third party cable update. edit2: More I read, I start to see 3rd party cartidge vendors didn't implement the chipset on cartridge fully compatible, instead they went easy way around. Third party ink vendor says: "We do not yet have an updated chipset that will work with this new firmware version. . Customers can expect cartridge replacements with updated chipsets to be available in two to three weeks, possibly longer." [1] http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-locks-out-remanufactured-cartridges-2/ http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-lock...

Steeeve 10y ago

I've had nothing but great success using third party ink with Epson printers. Every two-three years I buy a new epson printer and either a continuous ink system or refillable cartridges. I never worry about the kids printing too much or the print cartridge getting dry and clogging. Epson gets used a lot as a base in the third party space - for things like T-shirt printers and other textile based printing. The print heads are reliable and accurate.

tamana 10y ago
Why do you buy so many printers?
- Steeeve 10y ago
  I don't consider one every two-three years a lot. I buy one whenever I run out of ink.

froh42 10y ago

Such behaviour is the reason I threw out a perfectly working HP OfficeJet one day and will never buy a single HP printer in my life. In the OfficeJet in question I only used genuine cartridges, but every few year it would stop receiving black and white faxes because (the nearly full) color cartidge was passing its expiry date - forcing me to throw away the full color cartridge and buying a new one.

PieterH 10y ago
That is so corrupt. HP deserve a total boycott.
- brightball 10y ago
  How is this not a class action lawsuit?
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    Either (a) you most likely agreed to an arbitration clause when purchasing the printer or (b) customers don't care enough. Or both. My money is on the second one. Customers are cheap and lazy. If their printer breaks, they go buy a new $40 one instead of doing research and finding a quality one for a few hundred. "What does this $300 laser do that this $40 inkjet doesn't!?" You mean besides last longer, actually work when you need it to, and not have nozzles that clog up? People continuing to purchase cheap PoS printers and just accept that "printers break after a year; get a new one" is what allows this nonsense to keep happening.
    - breakingcups 10y ago
      Those arbitration clauses mean nothing in the EU.
flyinghamster 10y ago
Join the club. At my office we had an OfficeJet, and it "expired" a printhead. It won't even allow you to SCAN unless the printhead is replaced. No more HP for me. Never again.

threepipeproblm 10y ago

I hope HP can prevent all their future customers from talking to informed parties, or reading informed reviews. Seems rather self destructive of them.

josefresco 10y ago

Not sure if it was a time bomb, but HP does have an "auto update" feature that could seem like a time bomb. We got nailed by this with our HP 8610. Were using 3rd party cartridges with much success for months. Last week my wife had a huge (for us) print job and encountered an annoying bug (prints blank sheets every other print). Updated the firmware hoping it would fix the problem. Next thing we know, cartridge error. Spent 3-4 hours researching how to downgrade firmware with no luck. No mentioned of new Sept 13 firmware on any HP driver website that I found. 3rd party is shipping us new cartridges for free, but it will be 2 weeks. Had to buy another printer. Die in a fire HP.

83457 10y ago
Are you printing in color?
- josefresco 10y ago
  Yes.
userbinator 10y ago
The fact that a printer even needs "firmware upgrades" should be a big turn-off, because inkjets have been around for decades; they're not a bleeding-edge technology with many unknowns, they're relatively mature and essentially all bugs should've been found and fixed long ago. From what I understand, most inkjets are pretty dumb devices in that they just accept raster graphics and spray the pixels onto the page. A lot of them can't even do ASCII/text-mode anymore. Maybe they're now deliberately leaving bugs in so they can ostensibly "fix" them while also doing anti-user things like cartridge blacklisting...
qilo 10y ago
There is a firmware upgrade for this model on HP site: version R1547A from Mar 22, 2016. There wasn't new firmware releases on September 13, it's the date hardcoded into previously released firmwares as the date when to activate this "feature".

dec0dedab0de 10y ago

As an aside, does anyone remember the last time they were happy with ANY HP product? Everytime I see that logo I get chills knowing what a pain in the ass it's going to be. Edit: I am specifically thinking about HPSM, and HPNA here.

tiatia 10y ago
HP48?
ptaipale 10y ago
I'm using 820, 840 and 725 laptops which in my opinion offer a good balance of price and performance. At least they did when I last bought them and I compared to what I could find on the market. There's something funny with some Linux kernel versions, which shows up as kacpid hogging up a lot of CPU time, but you can disable it by echoing disable to the /proc filesystem. You may find such issues with very many laptops. But the physical and ergonomic things are very OK, considering the price, with these laptops.
gaius 10y ago
HP 3000's and 9000's were decent. Still use my HP 12C too!
sveiss 10y ago
The hardware labs at uni had a couple of ancient (to us -- probably 80s hardware being used in the mid-2000s?) HP logic analyzers with Z80 bus probes. They turned out to be much more reliable and easier to use than the modern USB pod things also provided which plugged into a Windows box to display the analysis traces.
CydeWeys 10y ago
I have an HP Chromebook 13" that's been pretty good so far. That's an official collaboration with Google being the driving force behind the specs and HP being responsible for the manufacturing, though, so it isn't really comparable to their printer line.
proactivesvcs 10y ago

raphaelh 10y ago

So what is a good brand of laser printers that work well under Linux and accepts unofficial toners?

dsr_ 10y ago
Brother. Look for: - BRScript3 (their clone of PostScript) - ethernet port - a "D" on the end means it can print on both sides, duplexing. It's slower but oh so much more convenient. Printers with all these features start around $100.
- pfooti 10y ago
  Yup. I have had two brother printers so far. The first was about 8 years old when the paper feed became unreliable, so I replaced it with a newer (color) model. Prints great, takes whatever cartridges fit, works fine with Linux, windows and osx. Haven't tried network printing from Android or iOS yet. Disclaimer: I probably print about five pages a month, so it hardly sees extensive use. I also don't print photo quality stuff, mostly role playing maps and characters for gaming sessions. But under those constraints, it's been great.
- wyclif 10y ago
  This is great actionable info, thanks! I just googled around for printers with these features, and learned something I didn't know.
- Tempest1981 10y ago
  Good service too. Brother sent out a Pitney Bowes repair person free of charge for my $350 color laser printer.
- PieterH 10y ago
  Haha, broscript... Sorry, thought I was on Reddit.
PieterH 10y ago
Cheap Samsung B&W around $60-70. I've used two over 5 years, very good.

dinnouti 10y ago

The Amazon Basic is my go to brand, their are cheap and functional. I wish they get into printers.

CydeWeys 10y ago
That would be amazing if Amazon released store brand printers with no nonsensical ink policies. They would wreak havoc on the entrenched players. Amazon could pull it off.

t3ra 10y ago

Canon printers with a "Continuous Supply Ink Tank" FTW. Now they even have official versions of these tanks.

crististm 10y ago

I guess it's time due for a rerun of Ken Thomson's reverse engineering of Mergenthaler Linotron. http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pdf http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pd...

neotek 10y ago

I don't know how the DRM works on ink cartridges, but if all the off-brand cartridges just use the same mass-produced cloned DRM "chip" (or whatever it is), it not possible this is actually caused by a certificate expiring rather than an intentionally malicious act by HP? I really don't have any clue what I'm talking about, just wondering if there's any alternative cause whatsoever.

manarth 10y ago
If the intent isn't to stop generics, why have DRM on an ink cartridge at all? Even if this instance is due to HP making a mistake, such as forgetting a certificate renewal, the intent is there right from the beginning, by using the DRM in the first place.
rincebrain 10y ago
If it only happens on printers that have received a certain firmware update, then it's unlikely to be a cert expiration on the cartridge side.

jmporcel 10y ago

Reverse engineering is a must in this case. I cannot be accepted that you got an HP printer and now you cannot use generic ink. I never liked HP but now, no way I will consider to buy HP products at all.

dre85 10y ago

Is there any legitimate reason to be buying an inkjet versus a laser? I would personally never buy an inkjet again in my life regardless of the brand.

Spooky23 10y ago
If you need occasional scanning, its the way to go. I buy a cheap all in one every two years when target/Walmart clears them out. Last year I bought 3 for $20/EA.
mysterypie 10y ago
Yes there is a reason: To print high-quality photos. I have an ink jet for photos (admittedly rarely needed these days) and a black&white laser for everything else. Also, part of the problem is that lot of people don't realize how expensive it is to run an ink jet and how massively cheaper a laser is in the long run. The average person needing a printing goes to the store and sees a laser for around $200 and an ink jet for $49, and buys the ink jet, thinking it's a better deal.

jasonkostempski 10y ago

This isn't even remotely surprising. in early 2000's work had 5 heavy duty color laser printers from HP to print B&W letters on. All carts stopped working after a certain page count. Even if the color wasn't used it would decrement the counter. We threw out THOUSANDS of full color toner cartridges.

MrTonyD 10y ago
Same experience here. I smiled as I threw out my HP color laser which had probably cost me over ten thousand dollars over its life. I've saved time, money, and customers by throwing all my HP printers away. (I didn't even sell them - I didn't want to give it away to some unsuspecting victim.)

83457 10y ago

I gave up on inkjet printers a long time ago. Is there any justification for using inkjet over laser for black and white?

noonespecial 10y ago

The best way to make a difference against this nastyness realistically available to us is probably the "one star review". And when you do, resist writing 10 paragraphs about all the times HP has ever wronged you or a long story about how much you needed the printout when it refused to print. One star, one sentence. "Expires full inks after only x months forcing you to buy new ones when you don't need them." I know for certain these short, sweet reviews change the buying behavior of my non-techie family. Make a difference. Write a product review today.

cantrevealname 10y ago
Excellent advice, but just one problem. For most sites, you had to have bought the product to submit a review, or to submit a credible review ("verified purchaser"). I personally stopped buying anything from HP years ago. So HN readers and techies in general are in the ironic position of having better judgment about the products but less able to influence the manufacturers. It's like hoping to see informed advice from doctors posting on a homeopathic website. The doctors are not buying homeopathic potions.
- petra 10y ago
  Even if it's not a verified-purchase , it's still counts in Amazon's count of percentage of 1 star reviews.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    On principle I hate the idea of encouraging people to submit reviews for products that they haven't purchased. It's a crime worse than time-bombing generic printer cartridges and makes online reviews basically worthless. I don't give a shit about your moral stand against HP. Give me an honest review of a product you own or don't say anything.
    - tamana 10y ago
      You think sharing honest information to help people is worse than lying for profit?

schlowmo 10y ago

Old, but still so true: "Why I Believe Printers Were Sent From Hell To Make Us Miserable" http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers Had this one printed out (oh that irony) and taped it to our office wall when we had to deal with crappy printers on a daily basis working for a big DAX company.

kawsper 10y ago
There is also this great short from CollegeHumor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM

nine_k 10y ago

Stop buying dirt-cheap printers that are sold at a loss. These are designed to be paid off by expensive toner / ink. These are designed to make you waste the supplies if you don't use them up fast enough. They are designed to reject third-party cheaper supplies. Pay a couple hundred more upfront for a no-bullshit device. I hope those still exist.

kentt 10y ago
I agree. Another option is to research which printers can trivially have their bullshit disabled. I bought a $30 printer about 5 years ago that I refill with bottles of toner for $2. The 'modding' involved a piece of tape over sensor.
jest3r1 10y ago
Ya, it's our fault for looking for a deal? How can you guarantee that paying a couple hundred more upfront would save us all from this pre meditated corporate gluttony? Stop buying printers from companies that build in mechanisms to purposely brick them. Buying a high-end HP is just as risky in my opinion, based on this story. Cannon is another company to avoid. They just settled a similar potential class action: http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-actions-over-pixma-printers/ http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-actions-o...
- dfox 10y ago
  The problem with avoiding Canon is that essentially any desktop laser printer on the market is in fact largely Canon's product (and the best of them in terms of reliability and TCO are little more than Canon made print engine in a plastic box). On the other hand I have reasonably good experiences with OKI and Brother LED printers. These printers tend to be reasonably cheap (I've got OKI multifunction on sale for ~150 EUR), are full Postcript/PCL printers and supplies are reasonably cheap too, both original and third-party.
maxxxxx 10y ago
How do you know the more expensive printer is a no bullshit device?

ausjke 10y ago

There is a little chip inside the cartridge, EPSON's chip was cloned in China so you can use the third-party inks "safely", however it's not the case for HP. I had not bought any HP products for 10+ years.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

I'm not a legal expert, but I want to believe that there is some law preventing manufacturers from sabotaging their own products in order to extract more coin from your consumers. I want to believe...

tomcorrigan 10y ago
The conduct described in the article is definitely unlawful in Australia.

Ericson2314 10y ago

Well, I'm glad I basically don't need to print anymore. Not sure what luck got me here, but I sure as hell aren't going back.

legohead 10y ago

For anyone tired of paying so much for ink replacements, look into a CISS (Continuous Ink Supply System) [1]. I got one for our Epson and it far outperforms ink cartridges and even the replacement ink is cheap. I've had some issues with the printer recognizing the cartridges, but after fiddling around enough it eventually does. It's definitely worth the effort. [1] https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-Printer-Cartridge/dp/B01G701EBK https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-Printer-...

sly010 10y ago

Here is a (probably worthless) idea: Create 1 or 2 good, serviceable network printer and experiment with different business models like subscriptions or pay-as-you-print, where the printer manufacturer _owns_ the printer an office or home just rents it. In such a model, the companies incentives would align with the users values: - Cheaper printing per page - Less overhead on distribution - No artificial costs and limitations - Generally better printer: - More serviceable - Better software - Long term support - More environmentally friendly Most people I know doesn't own a printer and just use the office printer anyway, so why not make the office printer just-work? Edit: formatting

evan_ 10y ago
That sort of business model- leasing- is pretty common with copiers/printers already.
- sly010 10y ago
  Yes, but that's the opposite end of the market (e.g. industrial pronting, very large size or volume). I am wondering if there is something in the middle.
  - new299 10y ago
    Photocopier/Printer leasing is common for small and medium sized businesses too. If you google for photocopier leasing you'll find a huge number of options.
hlandau 10y ago
Another possibility is still to sell printers, but have the cartridges produced by a completely separate company. Have the cartridges also conform to an open, published specification which any company (printer maker or cartridge maker) is free to implement. The printer maker will be forced to sell printers based on their cost, not as a loss leader.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

How I get screwed: My HP printer will occasionally print a black-and-white page using all three colors of ink. Discovered this one day when I rubbed a fresh page and it smeared three colors. They call it 'wear leveling' or something. But we all know it means 'using up your expensive color ink instead of your cheap black ink'. What a crock.

ythl 10y ago
That's why my HP printer only has a black cartridge. The socket for the color cartridge is empty.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Yeah the problem is that some of them don't allow you to do this anymore. Overall I've started to buy B&W only laser printers and I buy a new printer when the toner runs out. You can find Samsung entry level laser printers with a toner good for 300-500 pages on Amazon for about 30£ on sale that's cheaper than buying a toner. 1st world problems for sure but this is beyond stupid.
  - PieterH 10y ago
    The replacement toner is worth buying too, lasts some thousands of pages. I love my cheap Samsung lasers.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      I bought it once it but it costs about 50-60 GBP (i had printers for as low as 17 GBP on sale) and it only doubles the page count if you use it all the time, once you let the tones sit they seem to degrade quite quickly for some reason.
    - yborg 10y ago
      I have bad news for you. http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-printer-business http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-print...

Roboprog 10y ago

Somebody mentioned Brother printers elsewhere. I replaced my HP laser with a Brother laser a while back (just printing "stuff", not photos) I replaced my black cart on the HP (2600n) with a 3rd party product, and got away with it. However, when I replaced the color carts (one ran out), which I was forced to, since it wouldn't print B&W at all otherwise, the printer detected the alien carts, and immediately refused to clean itself or something - I started getting black streaks on my black text, even though the black cart worked just fine for months the day before. Bye bye, HP, you ain't what you used to be.

richdougherty 10y ago
Here's a tip for Brother printers. When the printer asks you to replace the toner and stops printing, you can override it with a setting. The default setting disables printing until you replace the toner. You can change the setting to keep printing until the toner really runs out. Forcing you to stop printing is naughty of Brother, but at least there's a setting so you can keep printing—if you're clever enough to find it.

jldugger 10y ago

There has to be enough former HP engineers to find one willing to answer this one definitively.

Mister_Snuggles 10y ago

I bought a Lexmark laser printer about 12 years ago. A few days ago I bought my very first replacement toner cartridge for it - until this point I have been using the included cartridge, which is probably a half-capacity one. As you can guess, I do a lot of printing. The box for the cartridge actually says that it will: 1) Only dispense a certain amount of toner before the printer will stop printing and that there will still be some toner left in the cartridge when this happens. 2) Update the firmware on the printer so that it won't accept 3rd-party cartridges. 3) Stuff about me agreeing to return the used cartridge to Lexmark for recycling since I bought a "return program" cartridge. Lexmark sold the cartridge for a reduced price, returning it for recycling is my end of the bargain. They didn't use these exact words, but it was very clearly written and seemed like it would be pretty understandable to a regular person. On one hand, I have to give Lexmark props for full disclosure that doesn't hide behind a click-through license or any weasel-words/legalese. On the other hand, changing the printer after purchase to lock the owner into Lexmark cartridges seems kind of low. I'm really not sure how I feel about this though. I don't mind buying the manufacturer's cartridges or packing up the old one to be returned. But at the same time I'm worried that, in another 12 years, Lexmark might no longer be making cartridges for this printer and I'll have to throw the printer away.

zimbatm 10y ago

Is there any brand of printer that that doesn't do that kind of thing?

XCSme 10y ago

Just get a CISS printer. I got an Epson L300 when I started college (4 years ago) and the printer is still going strong and I still have one full bottle of black ink (it came with 3x black ink bottles in the box). It was about $150 when I bought it and I spent $0 on ink.

ClayFerguson 10y ago

If this can be proven, and a class action lawsuit is filed, this would spell the end of HP. I don't think they would have any choice but to declare bankruptcy.

mey 10y ago

Can anyone recommend a good Soho printer at this point?

smhg 10y ago

Reminds me of the last HP printer I owned and the priceless reviews people wrote about it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY True, it was cheap, but the way in which it malfunctioned was so much over the top that I'll never buy HP printers again.

animex 10y ago

Also, don't forget to mark "helpful" the most popular reviews that align with your opinion of HP's current practices.

roflchoppa 10y ago

I feel like we have this discussion every week.

dangjc 10y ago

In southeast Asia, you can get an Epson L300 tank printer for about $170 USD. Each tank refill costs $10 and lasts for 10,000 pages. This line of printers isn't offered in the US. It's market segmentation. I think it's indicative of the level of oligopoly in the printer industry that they can segment this well and get away with it.

rihac 10y ago

second sneaky thing I have heard about them recently, there was also a big thing about them disabling the printers when you unsubscribe from the instant ink package.

Myce 10y ago

http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-unofficial-non-hp-ink-cartridges-printers-80457/ http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-unof... @mods That is the original source HP also made a statement about this: http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-responds-pre-programmed-failure-date-non-hp-cartridges-80467/ http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-responds-pre-programm...

JitterAtt 10y ago

Update here, HP admits to doing this intentionally and makes excuses as to why... http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-cartridges http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-cart...

datguy111 10y ago

Real simple: if you don't like it, go buy another brand printer. That's the beauty of democracy: you're free to buy another printer/ink just like they're allowed to protect their proprietary assets! Bunch of whiners....

datguy111 10y ago