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Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a hig

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being targeted for more intense data collection by the NSA? God, I hate how quickly you can get paranoid these days. A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US...

lettergram 10y ago
By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list.
- dsacco 10y ago
  > By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list. If the NSA really does maintain these macabre "lists", it's kind of hard to believe they'd be so unsophisticated as to put you on one for visiting a website called "Hacker News" that has nothing to do with the definition of "hacking" that they care about.
  - Semiapies 10y ago
    It may be hard to believe, but it's typical of surveillance programs. They aren't run by cunning Men in Black, they're just another government program with bureaucratic directives and clueless people in charge.
Dolores12 10y ago
As an US citizen, you don't have to fear, you have freedom of speech.
- JMCQ87 10y ago
  I hope that was sarcastic. Otherwise it's hilarious, especially in this context.
  - iso-8859-1 10y ago
    I hope that was sarcastic. Otherwise you are implying that the humor value of a comment is determined not solely by you, but partly from the intentions of the author.
    - gravypod 10y ago
      That's a corner stone of comedic value. It is to pretend you aren't intending to joke and landing on one.
    - kybernetikos 10y ago
      The perceived intentions of the author/utterer absolutely affect the humour value of a comment.
nothis 10y ago
You know what? I don't think that's an unreasonable concern and it's exactly why this situation is so horrible. It's the return cold war communism paranoia. "Of course I'm allowed to do this, but will this get me on some watchlist?" I guess the ethical answer is that, the more people will sign this (think a million?), the less likely it is to be used as some kind of filter. Even though what's one million names in a database? Sigh... Awful.
- JMCQ87 10y ago
  You're allowed your quota of one medium-impact dissident action per week, just like everyone else. As it helps to keep up maintaining the illusion of democracy and free speech, you are actually doing your country a great service. If you start to do more, however... Consider yourself warned. ^^ In this case, I can reassure you though: Online petition clicktivism has been shown to be very ineffective, so it's only considered a minor-impact dissident action. You are allowed five of those per week. ;)
  - akie 10y ago
    Depends on where you are. I have friends in Turkey who signed an online petition and (the next day) lost their jobs over it. Some of the other people who signed that petition are not allowed to leave the country anymore, and some are even being detained. Very scary.
    - consto 10y ago
      May I ask what petition?
      - akie 10y ago
        I think it was this one http://t24.com.tr/haber/baris-icin-akademisyenler-devlet-siddeti-sona-ersin-bu-suca-ortak-olmayacagiz,323330 http://t24.com.tr/haber/baris-icin-akademisyenler-devlet-sid... "As academics and researchers of this country, we will not be a party to this crime! The Turkish state has effectively condemned its citizens in Sur, Silvan, Nusaybin, Cizre, Silopi, and many other towns and neighborhoods in the Kurdish provinces to hunger through its use of curfews that have been ongoing for weeks. It has attacked these settlements with heavy weapons and equipment that would only be mobilized in wartime. As a result, the right to life, liberty, and security, and in particular the prohibition of torture and ill-treatment protected by the constitution and international conventions have been violated. This deliberate and planned massacre is in serious violation of Turkey’s own laws and international treaties to which Turkey is a party. These actions are in serious violation of international law. We demand the state to abandon its deliberate massacre and deportation of Kurdish and other peoples in the region. We also demand the state to lift the curfew, punish those who are responsible for human rights violations, and compensate those citizens who have experienced material and psychological damage. For this purpose we demand that independent national and international observers to be given access to the region and that they be allowed to monitor and report on the incidents. We demand the government to prepare the conditions for negotiations and create a road map that would lead to a lasting peace which includes the demands of the Kurdish political movement. We demand inclusion of independent observers from broad sections of society in these negotiations. We also declare our willingness to volunteer as observers. We oppose suppression of any kind of the opposition. We, as academics and researchers working on and/or in Turkey, declare that we will not be a party to this massacre by remaining silent and demand an immediate end to the violence perpetrated by the state. We will continue advocacy with political parties, the parliament, and international public opinion until our demands are met."
tn13 10y ago
I am reasonably certain signing this petition would increase your bad karma with NSA. This in itself may not cause a problem but next time you come on their radar this might hurt you. > A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... USA is moving rapidly towards socialism though it is much behind than say UK or France. This sort of government overreach is inevitable.
- pjc50 10y ago
  The UK's "peak 'socialism'" time was in the past. Depending on how you apply metrics to socialism it would either be the good parts (Attlee/Bevan establishing schools and NHS after the war) or the bad parts ("winter of discontent" 78/79). UK surveillance is part of the permanent state and is imperialist in nature. In some ways, the UK is less authoritarian than in the past - the Human Rights Act has had a real effect, along with the Good Friday Agreement. There are no longer troops deployed in the streets with live ammunition nor elected MPs who are forbidden to speak on television.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    More than one historian (e.g. Dominic Sandbrook) has pointed out that the "winter of discontent" wasn't caused by socialism in the Attlee & Bevin sense but out and out naked self interest in a way that was closer to the "no such thing as society" of the Thatcher years. I love Thatcher's description of Attlee: "He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show."
    - pjc50 10y ago
      I think we're back to debating what is and what is not socialism here, but the conflict was between labour unions and the state-owned enterprises that employed them. Both of which are very social democrat / mixed economy kind of institutions. Hence the Thatcherite response to both privatise everything (making employee relations someone else's problem, and also making it much easier to fire employees), severely restrict the unions, switch UK power generation away from domestic coal, and finally have a punchup between the police and the NUM. The Labour party failed to develop any effective way of saying "no" to naked self-interest in unions (In Place Of Strife passim). Intrinsic problem in 'socialism'? Possibly. That is a great quote on Attlee.
pearjuice 10y ago
You are trying to aid someone who should be put on trial[0] for evidently breaking the law, yet is safely hiding in Russia under the welcoming hand of Putin and enjoys the media attention he consistently gets. It's not so much about risk, but about pledging alliance to a fugitive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charge...
overlordalex 10y ago
Sadly you've almost certainly been added to a list simply for commenting on this article.
felice_landry 10y ago
It's awful that you are thinking about this, imho, as am I. I signed it, because I'd prefer not to live under an unaccountable surveillance superpower. Being in Australia, I'm at best, someone that kowtows to a surveillance superpower. Sucks to be me, I can't even vote to not be surveilled.
- Tepix 10y ago
  The link to the international campaign is broken and results in a 404 not found for me... did it work for you?
  - felice_landry 10y ago
    Strictly speaking I was born in Iowa so I signed it using those creds, but I don't think any of it matters, to be honest.
atmosx 10y ago
About 3 years ago, a story broke up about a three-letter agency requesting from Twitter (subpoena IIRC) the list of handles who were following a particular Swedish Pirate Party politician. I remember reading the article via twitter and after a while watching a tweet from the politician in question appear in timeline. I didn't even recall following her, but at some point in time I did. I froze and panicked, my twitter account is eponymous. What will happen to me when I cross the US border? Hopefully/Probably nothing, but the thought lies in the back of my mind.
- kyledrake 10y ago
  Okay, not to break up the tinfoil hat party here, but you're not going to get dragged off to US prison for following Birgitta Jónsdóttir (Icelandic, not Swedish) on Twitter.
  - jellicle 10y ago
    The U.S. border security has been monitoring social media for years. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/Emily-Bunting-Leigh-Van-Bryan-UK-tourists-arrested-destroy-America-Twitter-jokes.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/Emily-Buntin... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/28/us-customs-border-protection-social-media-accounts-facebook-twitter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/28/us-custom...
    - kyledrake 10y ago
      Yeah, if you post threats on your Twitter account immediately before visiting a country that could be an issue. So don't do that. Threats against persons or property are reasonable things for public officials to be concerned about. I repeat: you're not going to get dragged off to US prison for following Birgitta Jónsdóttir on Twitter. I strongly agree that Ed should be pardoned and that the US government has a lot of problems (like any country), but let's not go completely overboard here and write off the entire country as North Korea meets McCarthyism with a heaping side of Turkey. You can't and won't be prosecuted here for having a political opinion or for following people that do on Twitter.
adam12 10y ago
The NSA most likely already knows this about you if you have a twitter or facebook.
ionised 10y ago
At the very least you'll be placed on some form of watch list and labelled a domestic extremist.
ewoodrich 10y ago
I signed it and to be honest I'm not the biggest fan of Snowden but think he deserves an opportunity for pardon. I'm honestly not the slightest bit afraid of retaliation, and if I was targeted it would be evidence in favor of Snowden's cause. I don't understand how an American citizen could be afraid of exercising their free speech rights -- if they are violated, then one can vocally draw attention to their situation. I'm really not afraid of repercussions as a random American.
- usefulcat 10y ago
  Drawing attention is not an effective remedy against abuses by people who aren't held accountable: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130923/11543424624/border-patrols-horrific-treatment-medias-producer-family-friends-highlights-lack-accountability-dhs.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130923/11543424624/borde...
- mhurron 10y ago
  > I don't understand how an American citizen could be afraid of exercising their free speech rights -- if they are violated, then one can vocally draw attention to their situation. I'm really not afraid of repercussions as a random American. Because some random American has no practical recourse in such an event.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
microcolonel 10y ago
I accept that I've probably said enough nice or not-bad things about Ed Snowden that I'd probably never get a security clearance as a U.S. citizen; and as a dual citizen I have no hope at all to begin with.
flexie 10y ago
Your comment puts Snowden's actions in perspective. He risked his liberty, if not life, so that we could learn about the scope of US mass surveillance. You worry about the risk of being registered as a Snowden sympathizer if you voice your support and the discomfort that might bring with it. Democracy and rule of law doesn't come for free.
- npiazza83 10y ago
  To quote a man who was actively surveilled by the US government for much of his later life and no one believed him... "They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason." -Earnest Hemingway
  - flexie 10y ago
    That quote is from "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter" which was published in Esquire in 1935 and was about war (based on his experience from WWI), not about surveillance or about standing up for democracy in times of peace. FBI opened their file on Hemingway in 1942: https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway Nobody in the US will "die like a dog" for supporting a presidential pardon of Snowden and Hemingway did not suggest that one should stay out of politics.
    - npiazza83 10y ago
      I didn't even spell his name right. Still a good quote.
driverdan 10y ago
Assuming any of those lists exist, you're not trying hard enough if you're not already on them.
- draugadrotten 10y ago
  In fact, not being on any list is a reason for being on a watchlist all by itself. What is that person trying so hard to hide?
apk17 10y ago
According to a journalist who gave a talk here (Stuttgart, Germany) last week, there is a speed radar and license plate scanner at the local NSA installation, and going by too slow gets you on the 'suspicious people' list.
cryoshon 10y ago
If you aren't willing to risk being on the NSA's shit list, we will never be able to break free of their oppression. Action breeds confidence.
coder2012 10y ago
I think signing that petition is the least of your worries, the amount of data already collected about you including this comment here will be used to profile you for years to come.
pdkl95 10y ago
"You shouldn't change your behavior because a government agency somewhere is doing the wrong thing. If we sacrifice our values because were afraid we don't care about those values very much." ~ Edward Snowden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=1840 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=1840
badwolf 10y ago
In socialist countries... they sign it all for you already.
jdright 10y ago
Chilling effects have a long tail.
rdiddly 10y ago
I had the same thought, but I signed it, because he did a helluva lot more for me than sign a petition, and also because "failing to do the right thing because of concerns about your personal safety/convenience" is known more succinctly as cowardice. (Whether "signing an online petition" is "doing the right thing" is outside the scope of this comment.)
balabaster 10y ago
I don't think the paranoia is unreasonable, however, it is exactly this sort of self censorship that dictatorships bank on to stay in power. People don't speak out for fear of repercussions. Snowden sacrificed almost everything to do what was right by not only the people of the U.S. but what was right for the people of the world. I think it's only right that we all put our neck out for him, the same as he did for us - if only to say thank you for having our backs. I'm signing it. Edit: I have signed it
AsyncAwait 10y ago
> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... It's ironic that given all the valid concerns in your post, you also fell for the oldest piece of propaganda in the book by the very government you're concerned about and that you think that socialism has something to do with dictatorships, rather than it being just an idea that itself has nothing to do with dictatorships in itself, but was in the past implemented by dictators, same as capitalism was in Latin America and elsewhere. Nazi ideology is much more inherently tied to strongmen and dictatorships than socialist ideology is. You also seem to be talking about communism, rather than socialism as such and fail to see the distinction between these two, or indeed between communism and Stalinism, but that's for a longer discussion...
- tomaskafka 10y ago
  Nazi and socialist ideology is quite close. After all, the S in NSDAP stands for Socialist, and they targeted same voters.
  - Sgt_Apone 10y ago
    This is bad history. The Nazis who emerged in power had no ties to socialism. By this logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a purely democratically run country.
    - bnolsen 10y ago
      huh? The nazis were entirely socialist and ran a socialist agenda. That was their platform. Centralized education, centralized health care, strict gun control laws, the list goes on and on.
      - AsyncAwait 10y ago
        As I said above, the "socialism" promised by Hitler was that they should no longer pay for WW1 and since they're a superior race, they're entitled to the labour of Jews, Romas etc. for "free" - that's the "socialism" behind Naziism, just because the words are the same, doesn't mean they're the same thing. Hitler essentially wanted the superior Germans to do nothing and be provided for by lesser races and I presume that's why you think he was a "socialist", but in reality he was much closer to early U.S. history than to socialist ideology. > Centralized education, centralized health care, strict gun control laws More like common sense laws than "socialist" ones if you ask me... This is what upsets me about the right, they're so easily scammed by random screams of "Big government", "centralised health care", "strict gun control", "centralised education" etc. and the counter is simply "FREEDOM, LOW TAXES, PRIVATE HEALTHCARE, "THE BEST PROVIDER WINS" etc. and I get the appeal, these things sound awesome, but the problem is in the details; the "low taxes" are not for you, they're for Apple, Google, Shell etc. "private healthcare" is not excluded under socialism if you want it and can afford it, it's just that it's not the only option and every citizen has some form of healthcare provided, regardless of their socioeconomic status, just by the virtue of the fact that they're...you know...human. The people who say it's too expensive ignore how much is spent on the military, (i.e. US military has 800+ overseas military bases, do you really think you need (all) of them?), the fact that US already spends more on healthcare than virtually any other modern nation and despite this it still has the worst quality healthcare of all of them. "Centralised education" means that creationists in Iowa can't not teach evolution, which I would argue it's a good thing, but again, it's a base, so that everybody gets at least "some" consistent quality of education, it doesn't mean it can't be expanded upon... > strict gun control laws Again, more like common sense, than ideology driven, look up gun deaths in the US vs Europe. If you have a gun in the US you don't actually have an advantage, because everybody else is armed as well, i.e. it's basically as if you didn't have one, but with greater risks of getting shot.
danso 10y ago
Normally I'd call that paranoia. But after reading about the case in which a Goldman Sachs programmer aroused suspicion [0] from the FBI for using "Subversion" and occasionally erasing his "bash history", I think it's reasonable to remember that anything you say can and will be used against use in the eyes of the law [0] http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman-sachs-programmer http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman...
acobster 10y ago
All acts of resistance have consequences. That's because it's important, and "they" know it's important. I think it's reasonable to assume this gets you put on a watchlist if you're not already. As others have (snarkily) pointed out, this is a pretty mild form of resistance, so I'd imagine the consequences would be pretty mild.
tptacek 10y ago
There is no risk to signing this.
- azurelogic 10y ago
  That's exactly what they want you to think! :tinfoilhat:
clarkmoody 10y ago
> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United States has perpetrated terrible violence and destruction of liberty against its own citizens and many more abroad. Through endless military engagement abroad to harassment, detainment, and imprisonment at home, the government serves its own interests first, and enhancing and preserving your liberty is not among them. I should be very concerned about coming to the attention of anyone within government -- at any level. Even the local code enforcement board can extract time, energy, and money from you should you come under scrutiny. But as others have said, you're already on the lists. No need to be paranoid. Go ahead and sign the Snowden petition. It's just one more data point on your dossier. The government already has enough on you to put you away for life if you become inconvenient to the state. Three Felonies a Day[1] and all that. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473864155&sr=8-1&keywords=three+felonies+a+day https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp...
- krschultz 10y ago
  Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Depends on what kind of freedoms you are looking for. Many European countries, Germany for example, have better protections from law enforcement and crime. On the other hand free speech is more restricted by libel or hate speech directives.
  - lisper 10y ago
    If you want freedom from government interference in your life, Somalia is still a pretty good bet. And no, I am not being facetious. People like to think of freedom as a scalar, but it's actually a vector with complex interactions among its various dimensions, one of which is the government. That said, I am absolutely signing the petition. Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing.
peterkelly 10y ago
This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories about which I was especially upset, identifying myself by name and politely but firmly expressing my views. NSA told me to go away, but surprisingly the woman at GCHQ heard me out for several minutes and let me finish my rant. That's the British establishment for you I guess - they can be assholes, but polite assholes. Snowden risked everything to inform us all of the crimes of the FVEY governments and the least we can all do is take inspiration from his actions and stand up and publicly make our views known, whatever they may be. The day people stop being willing to express their political views publicly is the day we lose something very important. NSA - my name and XKEYSCORE selectors are in my profile. Feel free to add me to whatever lists I'm not already on.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  It's not so much about mass surveillance but rather things like the TSA and stupid immigration policies which are at play here. Really, spotting your name on a petition isn't mass surveillance. It's not even a breach of privacy in any sense, because that's exactly what petitions are for.
  - ygjb 10y ago
    > Really, spotting your name on a petition isn't mass surveillance. No. The goal of a petition is to show support for a course of action, and in this context, exercising freedom of speech in a democracy. Taking the list of people who signed a petition, assigning a "risk score" to them because of their activism, storing it in a database for the future, and using that as a means to make decisions that affect those individuals freedoms is exactly the purpose of mass surveillance. In isolation, for one petition or one activity, it is a sensible thing. As a general practice it promotes the notion of thought-crime or pre-crime in which an individuals freedoms are curtailed because the individuals exercise of their freedoms is unpalatable to either the elected officials, or the entrenched bureaucracy.
M_Grey 10y ago
North Koreans see themselves as 'The Cleanest People'. We see ourselves as the freest. We're both wrong.
BafS 10y ago
> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... What is your definition of "socialist" ? A lot of European countries are "socialists" in a way (always a nuance) but they don't have an aggressive kind of local NSA (even if some have a local NSA).
dclowd9901 10y ago
I tend to doubt your fear is to have your "terrorism points" incremented in some database, but rather the cold and distant nature of the federal government makes it nearly impossible to reason through how you're _not_ a terrorist (assuming you're not). There's no organized mechanism by which you can disprove your terrorism affiliations. Otherwise, being put in a database would be as much an issue as changing the wrong address on your insurance policy.
supernintendo 10y ago
Risks aside, signing this is useless. President Obama hates whistleblowers and will not pardon Mr. Snowden. I would be willing to put money on it.
lisper 10y ago
> what would the risk be for me to sign this? You could end up in prison. It's not likely, but it's possible. Signing this petition could get your name on a secret list of people who are likely terrorist sympathizers, and that in turn could lead to your arrest on trumped-up charges, or perhaps even non-trumped-up charges based on coincidental circumstances that would never have been noticed had you not signed. There are also a whole host of other less serious possible consequences. You could end up on the no-fly list. You could be denied a government job. Who knows? And that is exactly why you must sign. Ed Snowden put a lot on the line so that we can know for sure that we are facing risks like this, and possibly even do something about it. The least we can do IMHO is to take a small risk to help him come home. That's why I signed (and made a modest donation).
riboflava 10y ago
"They seem to have learned the habit of cowering before authority even when not actually threatened. How very nice for authority. I decided not to learn this particular lesson." -- Richard Stallman (http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/109 http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/109)
Taek 10y ago
When you start to feel that way is when you need to stand up the most. We get further into this mess by staying silent out of fear and we get out of it by being millions strong and protesting the state of things.
Taek 10y ago
When you start to feel that way is when you need to stand up the most. We get further into this mess by staying silent out of fear and we get out of it by being millions strong and protesting the state of things.
johnhenry 10y ago
The fact that the United States government can indiscriminately designate people as being "in trouble" and then use this as an excuse to trample upon their rights. The real trouble is a situation in which Snowden is not pardoned.
downandout 10y ago
First the pardon will never happen. Neither Obama nor any other President can or will pardon him, lest they encourage the next Snowden. So signing it will not actually help Snowden. Second, it's entirely possible that your fears will come true - obviously the government will receive your information and they can use it how they see fit. Not only that, but they appear to be running a co-registration campaign with the ACLU, and you don't know exactly who else will get your name, email, and physical address, or who those people will sell it to. I would be also curious to see what kind of remarketing cookies they are using. You can easily be put in the bucket of "HN users that visited the support Snowden page" and be stalked accordingly by advertisers across millions of Adsense-supported sites, Google search, Facebook, and the general web with just two or three remarketing cookies. The creators of this site undoubtedly know that their stated goal will never be accomplished. So this looks more like an attempt to build a marketing database of people with a specific viewpoint than anything else.
nathan_f77 10y ago
If you signed a petition in Thailand, and it had anything to do with the royal family, then you would be arrested and imprisoned under the lese majeste laws. If you signed a petition in North Korea or Syria, you would be tortured and killed. Be thankful that you can exercise your right to sign this petition in the US, and the only thing you might need to worry about is increased scrutiny from the IRS.
natban 10y ago
For a non-US citizen it might be a case, especially if they are thinking about moving there eventually.
morgante 10y ago
Literally millions of Americans think Snowden should be pardoned. Expressing that belief won't make me a target. That being said, I could see the government trotting it out if there were ever a separate case against you. "captainmuon is already known to harbor sympathies for known traitor Edward Snowden."
- rayiner 10y ago
  I've literally never seen anything like that being trotted out in a case.
  - chopin 10y ago
    This comes close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_security_hearing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_security_hearing
pkaeding 10y ago
I don't think they would have a problem with people signing this. It lets the people blow off steam with no real effect. Once you sign it, you think "well, I've done my part. I signed the online petition, and changed my Twitter/Facebook icon."
unusximmortalis 10y ago
The fact that you, the US citizen, asks this questions and has these worries says everything about what US has become, unfortunately.
obelos 10y ago
Pretty sure I was denied clearance because I had made pro-Snowden remarks in public.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cureyourhead 10y ago
Fate of your country at risk. And you ask where is the risk for you. What's in it for you. That cowardice is a disease of Western culture these days. Ask not...
rayiner 10y ago
I think you're being ridiculous. This is being run through the ACLU, which has over 500,000 members. I just signed and donated $50.
erikb 10y ago
Why do you think this won't happen if you write that exact comment here? Quite sure for writing here we are all added to the database or our attention factor gets slightly increased if we already are in it, maybe depending on how critical the word cloud of our comment looks to their analytics software. And don't think it's different if you are a US citizen or not. They probably add people from everywhere. A few billion data sets are probably not as big a deal anymore nowadays.
sriku 10y ago
I don't know what to make of this. We lose if Snowden is "pardoned", because that would mean he did something morally wrong. Snowden loses his life in the US if he's not pardoned. I'm not American, but the issue cuts across all countries and Snowden is a representative.
jcoffland 10y ago
A lot of Germans had this attitude back in the late 30s early 40s.
nicnash08 10y ago
This exactly why I think we should sign it. The fact that you now second guess everything shows this is very wrong. It will only get worse if we keep our mouths closed.
Myrmornis 10y ago
Even if there is some correlation between signing this petition and some of the things you say, the expected (in the statistical sense) damage to you is tiny compared to the cause in question and the principles, so frankly I think it is lame of you to even be writing about this, and I don't think it should be the top comment. It makes HN readers look like a bunch of #firstworldproblemers lacking perspective and fretting about minor inconveniences to their privileged lifestyles.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
I think about this sort of thing quite often, actually: Your fears are exactly why i've not signed it. I'm American, living in Norway. I don't really plan on living in the states again, but I very much want to be able to visit family. I already wonder if that doesn't put me on some sort of secret list, but there isn't a decent way for me to find out. I don't even feel I have adequate representation anymore - I can vote based on my previous address in the US, but I highly doubt I'd be listened to. Not that it was adequate to begin with, but I at least had the facade. It is really unnerving truth be told.
smsm42 10y ago
> I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? I would be hugely surprised to learn that anybody would spend any time or attention to whoever votes how on a petition. There are thousands of those and only so many border agents, and making trouble to an US citizen carries a non-zero risk. Your profile is too low for that. > Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Possible, but other things should be like donating to known ISIS front or frequenting a Hezbollah darksite, or something like that. Otherwise it's just noise. > Increased scrutiny from the IRS Unlikely, IRS is interested in money, not online petitions. You'd need to do something more spectacular to deserve special scrutiny, that puts you out of the crowd. Voting on online petition puts you in the crowd. > but "they" might say hell why not? Customized treatment on these scales is rather expensive. If voting on online petition had triggered customized treatment, they'd have to do a lot of useless "increased scrutiny". If they did, you won't be different from millions of people, but most probably they don't. > Inability to get security clearances in future? Security clearance is one area where such scrutiny could be warranted. But given who gets clearances, at least at low levels (like terror operatives working at airports and security companies, etc.) not likely unless we're talking about very high clearance levels. > Being targeted for more intense data collection by the NSA? Unlikely, again, you'd have to get out of the noise level for that and voting on a petition does not do that. If you'd be a close personal friend of Snowden then it'd be a different thing... If Snowden revealed something is that the NSA and accompanied services are very smart, very powerful and very resourceful in achieving their goals. Nothing suggests they are so stupid as being unable to distinguish between signal and noise. They may be collecting a lot, but it all would be useless if they couldn't distinguish between interesting things and noise. Signing an online petition is noise.
joe563323 10y ago
There might be a risk. But if you do not act the risk is much higher. I am not talking about social good or sacrifice. Just think about the state in which your children's and their children's will live in. It is not worth living in a state like that. Its like we are being prepared for breeding future slaves.
raldu 10y ago
Asking, "Will the government persecute me if I democratically voice my opinion against a crime executed by the same government?", is exactly the type of questioning that should be avoided. It is same as asking, "Will the mafia kill me if I speak the truth about the murder as an eyewitness?" Government is not supposed to operate like a mafia. (But sure they can violate Human Rights and the Constitution, and public will not even care.) However, I am afraid by asking that very question we are already talking from within the context of a regime that is "totalitarian". The various degrees to which an average US citizen believes that they are not in a totalitarian country unlike those "other" "socialist" or whatever countries out there, is irrelevant: Surveillance is Totalitarianism. It is no surprise for people get paranoid in a country with large-scale surveillance technology. And that's the point. Because it has never been merely about the "terrorists" who are "out there"... For people who are concerned about getting a "high score" in whatever threat inventory, we are all a threat already. That's the very basic rationale behind mass-surveillance. For the record, a majority of HN members would hypothetically get pretty "high scores"... Back to the topic of the thread, Obama will not pardon Snowden.
metaphorm 10y ago
> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... what does socialism have to do with this? maybe you meant to say "a mode of thought I would expect in totalitarian police states..." it's true that some totalitarian police states have, nominally if not really in practice, also been socialist. however, there have been just as many fascist, capitalist, monarchist, and theocratic totalitarian police states as well. so I ask again...what does socialism have to do with this?
a3n 10y ago
I had a similar thought, but it was more just normal internet guardedness: I don't know who these people are that are asking for my PII.
pbarnes_1 10y ago
Uhm... Bernie Sanders signed this. I think you'll be okay.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
Paranoid? Naah. I'm working on the assumption this site (pardonsnowden.org) is run by the CIA, or one of it's proxies, whatever, to gather the names of Snowden sympathisers. Surely, right. If history has taught us anything. I mean, we know some of the things the CIA has gotten up in the past.
pasbesoin 10y ago
I made a small donation to Glenn Greenwald, back when he was writing for Salon. (Back when concerns were hanging chads, weapons of mass deception, and the like.) I've had occasion in recent years to speculate how many lists that has put me on. And to explain to a few friends "three degrees of separation" and what that might imply for them, as well. I don't particularly like being listed. But I really don't like and fear the utter lack of transparency and accountability, and how such information can and apparently is "weaponized" against individuals for personal, political, and financial objectives. Not only is it scary. It is, ultimately, a wasteful mis-use of resources. All this dirt digging and slinging and lawyering up takes away from more useful activity. Like fixing blight and illness before it engenders disfunction. Call me an optimist. I believe -- or at least hope -- that we can do better. I'm tired of living in perpetual fear.
MichaelMoser123 10y ago
They would have to man in the middle the petition site to log you as it is in https. Can they do that for everybody just like that? I am not sure.
mszyndel 10y ago
The problem seems to be that you use "socialist" as a replacement for totalitarian. And since you don't even know your enemy...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
socmag 10y ago
Better to be on the right side of history. I mean, if you are asking the question, you have already made a personal decision that you would like to sign it. Not doing so would be betraying yourself. That would be worse than not getting a security clearance I would have thought. In any case, I doubt the spooks would be really that bothered. You can still spy AND take the moral high road :-)
ashitlerferad 10y ago
I'd be more worried about the consequences of not signing it.
random42 10y ago
> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... I hate this notion. I stay in India -- a socialist nation, which has its own problems but "lack of freedom" compared to any other nation in the world is not one of them.
csomar 10y ago
I think the point is, the reason you are doing this is to mitigate the very same effects you are afraid from. You are now concerned about getting on the no-fly list. Think about being concerned doing a Google Search, Buying this item, Putting much money into this and this.

lettergram 10y ago

By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list.

dsacco 10y ago
> By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list. If the NSA really does maintain these macabre "lists", it's kind of hard to believe they'd be so unsophisticated as to put you on one for visiting a website called "Hacker News" that has nothing to do with the definition of "hacking" that they care about.
- Semiapies 10y ago
  It may be hard to believe, but it's typical of surveillance programs. They aren't run by cunning Men in Black, they're just another government program with bureaucratic directives and clueless people in charge.

Dolores12 10y ago

As an US citizen, you don't have to fear, you have freedom of speech.

JMCQ87 10y ago
I hope that was sarcastic. Otherwise it's hilarious, especially in this context.
- iso-8859-1 10y ago
  I hope that was sarcastic. Otherwise you are implying that the humor value of a comment is determined not solely by you, but partly from the intentions of the author.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    That's a corner stone of comedic value. It is to pretend you aren't intending to joke and landing on one.
  - kybernetikos 10y ago
    The perceived intentions of the author/utterer absolutely affect the humour value of a comment.

nothis 10y ago

You know what? I don't think that's an unreasonable concern and it's exactly why this situation is so horrible. It's the return cold war communism paranoia. "Of course I'm allowed to do this, but will this get me on some watchlist?" I guess the ethical answer is that, the more people will sign this (think a million?), the less likely it is to be used as some kind of filter. Even though what's one million names in a database? Sigh... Awful.

JMCQ87 10y ago
You're allowed your quota of one medium-impact dissident action per week, just like everyone else. As it helps to keep up maintaining the illusion of democracy and free speech, you are actually doing your country a great service. If you start to do more, however... Consider yourself warned. ^^ In this case, I can reassure you though: Online petition clicktivism has been shown to be very ineffective, so it's only considered a minor-impact dissident action. You are allowed five of those per week. ;)
- akie 10y ago
  Depends on where you are. I have friends in Turkey who signed an online petition and (the next day) lost their jobs over it. Some of the other people who signed that petition are not allowed to leave the country anymore, and some are even being detained. Very scary.
  - consto 10y ago
    May I ask what petition?
    - akie 10y ago
      I think it was this one http://t24.com.tr/haber/baris-icin-akademisyenler-devlet-siddeti-sona-ersin-bu-suca-ortak-olmayacagiz,323330 http://t24.com.tr/haber/baris-icin-akademisyenler-devlet-sid... "As academics and researchers of this country, we will not be a party to this crime! The Turkish state has effectively condemned its citizens in Sur, Silvan, Nusaybin, Cizre, Silopi, and many other towns and neighborhoods in the Kurdish provinces to hunger through its use of curfews that have been ongoing for weeks. It has attacked these settlements with heavy weapons and equipment that would only be mobilized in wartime. As a result, the right to life, liberty, and security, and in particular the prohibition of torture and ill-treatment protected by the constitution and international conventions have been violated. This deliberate and planned massacre is in serious violation of Turkey’s own laws and international treaties to which Turkey is a party. These actions are in serious violation of international law. We demand the state to abandon its deliberate massacre and deportation of Kurdish and other peoples in the region. We also demand the state to lift the curfew, punish those who are responsible for human rights violations, and compensate those citizens who have experienced material and psychological damage. For this purpose we demand that independent national and international observers to be given access to the region and that they be allowed to monitor and report on the incidents. We demand the government to prepare the conditions for negotiations and create a road map that would lead to a lasting peace which includes the demands of the Kurdish political movement. We demand inclusion of independent observers from broad sections of society in these negotiations. We also declare our willingness to volunteer as observers. We oppose suppression of any kind of the opposition. We, as academics and researchers working on and/or in Turkey, declare that we will not be a party to this massacre by remaining silent and demand an immediate end to the violence perpetrated by the state. We will continue advocacy with political parties, the parliament, and international public opinion until our demands are met."

tn13 10y ago

I am reasonably certain signing this petition would increase your bad karma with NSA. This in itself may not cause a problem but next time you come on their radar this might hurt you. > A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... USA is moving rapidly towards socialism though it is much behind than say UK or France. This sort of government overreach is inevitable.

pjc50 10y ago
The UK's "peak 'socialism'" time was in the past. Depending on how you apply metrics to socialism it would either be the good parts (Attlee/Bevan establishing schools and NHS after the war) or the bad parts ("winter of discontent" 78/79). UK surveillance is part of the permanent state and is imperialist in nature. In some ways, the UK is less authoritarian than in the past - the Human Rights Act has had a real effect, along with the Good Friday Agreement. There are no longer troops deployed in the streets with live ammunition nor elected MPs who are forbidden to speak on television.
- arethuza 10y ago
  More than one historian (e.g. Dominic Sandbrook) has pointed out that the "winter of discontent" wasn't caused by socialism in the Attlee & Bevin sense but out and out naked self interest in a way that was closer to the "no such thing as society" of the Thatcher years. I love Thatcher's description of Attlee: "He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show."
  - pjc50 10y ago
    I think we're back to debating what is and what is not socialism here, but the conflict was between labour unions and the state-owned enterprises that employed them. Both of which are very social democrat / mixed economy kind of institutions. Hence the Thatcherite response to both privatise everything (making employee relations someone else's problem, and also making it much easier to fire employees), severely restrict the unions, switch UK power generation away from domestic coal, and finally have a punchup between the police and the NUM. The Labour party failed to develop any effective way of saying "no" to naked self-interest in unions (In Place Of Strife passim). Intrinsic problem in 'socialism'? Possibly. That is a great quote on Attlee.

pearjuice 10y ago

You are trying to aid someone who should be put on trial[0] for evidently breaking the law, yet is safely hiding in Russia under the welcoming hand of Putin and enjoys the media attention he consistently gets. It's not so much about risk, but about pledging alliance to a fugitive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charge...

overlordalex 10y ago

Sadly you've almost certainly been added to a list simply for commenting on this article.

felice_landry 10y ago

It's awful that you are thinking about this, imho, as am I. I signed it, because I'd prefer not to live under an unaccountable surveillance superpower. Being in Australia, I'm at best, someone that kowtows to a surveillance superpower. Sucks to be me, I can't even vote to not be surveilled.

Tepix 10y ago
The link to the international campaign is broken and results in a 404 not found for me... did it work for you?
- felice_landry 10y ago
  Strictly speaking I was born in Iowa so I signed it using those creds, but I don't think any of it matters, to be honest.

atmosx 10y ago

About 3 years ago, a story broke up about a three-letter agency requesting from Twitter (subpoena IIRC) the list of handles who were following a particular Swedish Pirate Party politician. I remember reading the article via twitter and after a while watching a tweet from the politician in question appear in timeline. I didn't even recall following her, but at some point in time I did. I froze and panicked, my twitter account is eponymous. What will happen to me when I cross the US border? Hopefully/Probably nothing, but the thought lies in the back of my mind.

kyledrake 10y ago
Okay, not to break up the tinfoil hat party here, but you're not going to get dragged off to US prison for following Birgitta Jónsdóttir (Icelandic, not Swedish) on Twitter.
- jellicle 10y ago
  The U.S. border security has been monitoring social media for years. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/Emily-Bunting-Leigh-Van-Bryan-UK-tourists-arrested-destroy-America-Twitter-jokes.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/Emily-Buntin... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/28/us-customs-border-protection-social-media-accounts-facebook-twitter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/28/us-custom...
  - kyledrake 10y ago
    Yeah, if you post threats on your Twitter account immediately before visiting a country that could be an issue. So don't do that. Threats against persons or property are reasonable things for public officials to be concerned about. I repeat: you're not going to get dragged off to US prison for following Birgitta Jónsdóttir on Twitter. I strongly agree that Ed should be pardoned and that the US government has a lot of problems (like any country), but let's not go completely overboard here and write off the entire country as North Korea meets McCarthyism with a heaping side of Turkey. You can't and won't be prosecuted here for having a political opinion or for following people that do on Twitter.

adam12 10y ago

The NSA most likely already knows this about you if you have a twitter or facebook.

ionised 10y ago

At the very least you'll be placed on some form of watch list and labelled a domestic extremist.

ewoodrich 10y ago

I signed it and to be honest I'm not the biggest fan of Snowden but think he deserves an opportunity for pardon. I'm honestly not the slightest bit afraid of retaliation, and if I was targeted it would be evidence in favor of Snowden's cause. I don't understand how an American citizen could be afraid of exercising their free speech rights -- if they are violated, then one can vocally draw attention to their situation. I'm really not afraid of repercussions as a random American.

usefulcat 10y ago
Drawing attention is not an effective remedy against abuses by people who aren't held accountable: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130923/11543424624/border-patrols-horrific-treatment-medias-producer-family-friends-highlights-lack-accountability-dhs.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130923/11543424624/borde...
mhurron 10y ago
> I don't understand how an American citizen could be afraid of exercising their free speech rights -- if they are violated, then one can vocally draw attention to their situation. I'm really not afraid of repercussions as a random American. Because some random American has no practical recourse in such an event.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

microcolonel 10y ago

I accept that I've probably said enough nice or not-bad things about Ed Snowden that I'd probably never get a security clearance as a U.S. citizen; and as a dual citizen I have no hope at all to begin with.

flexie 10y ago

Your comment puts Snowden's actions in perspective. He risked his liberty, if not life, so that we could learn about the scope of US mass surveillance. You worry about the risk of being registered as a Snowden sympathizer if you voice your support and the discomfort that might bring with it. Democracy and rule of law doesn't come for free.

npiazza83 10y ago
To quote a man who was actively surveilled by the US government for much of his later life and no one believed him... "They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason." -Earnest Hemingway
- flexie 10y ago
  That quote is from "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter" which was published in Esquire in 1935 and was about war (based on his experience from WWI), not about surveillance or about standing up for democracy in times of peace. FBI opened their file on Hemingway in 1942: https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway Nobody in the US will "die like a dog" for supporting a presidential pardon of Snowden and Hemingway did not suggest that one should stay out of politics.
  - npiazza83 10y ago
    I didn't even spell his name right. Still a good quote.

driverdan 10y ago

Assuming any of those lists exist, you're not trying hard enough if you're not already on them.

draugadrotten 10y ago
In fact, not being on any list is a reason for being on a watchlist all by itself. What is that person trying so hard to hide?

apk17 10y ago

According to a journalist who gave a talk here (Stuttgart, Germany) last week, there is a speed radar and license plate scanner at the local NSA installation, and going by too slow gets you on the 'suspicious people' list.

cryoshon 10y ago

If you aren't willing to risk being on the NSA's shit list, we will never be able to break free of their oppression. Action breeds confidence.

coder2012 10y ago

I think signing that petition is the least of your worries, the amount of data already collected about you including this comment here will be used to profile you for years to come.

pdkl95 10y ago

"You shouldn't change your behavior because a government agency somewhere is doing the wrong thing. If we sacrifice our values because were afraid we don't care about those values very much." ~ Edward Snowden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=1840 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=1840

badwolf 10y ago

In socialist countries... they sign it all for you already.

jdright 10y ago

Chilling effects have a long tail.

rdiddly 10y ago

I had the same thought, but I signed it, because he did a helluva lot more for me than sign a petition, and also because "failing to do the right thing because of concerns about your personal safety/convenience" is known more succinctly as cowardice. (Whether "signing an online petition" is "doing the right thing" is outside the scope of this comment.)

balabaster 10y ago

I don't think the paranoia is unreasonable, however, it is exactly this sort of self censorship that dictatorships bank on to stay in power. People don't speak out for fear of repercussions. Snowden sacrificed almost everything to do what was right by not only the people of the U.S. but what was right for the people of the world. I think it's only right that we all put our neck out for him, the same as he did for us - if only to say thank you for having our backs. I'm signing it. Edit: I have signed it

AsyncAwait 10y ago

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... It's ironic that given all the valid concerns in your post, you also fell for the oldest piece of propaganda in the book by the very government you're concerned about and that you think that socialism has something to do with dictatorships, rather than it being just an idea that itself has nothing to do with dictatorships in itself, but was in the past implemented by dictators, same as capitalism was in Latin America and elsewhere. Nazi ideology is much more inherently tied to strongmen and dictatorships than socialist ideology is. You also seem to be talking about communism, rather than socialism as such and fail to see the distinction between these two, or indeed between communism and Stalinism, but that's for a longer discussion...

tomaskafka 10y ago
Nazi and socialist ideology is quite close. After all, the S in NSDAP stands for Socialist, and they targeted same voters.
- Sgt_Apone 10y ago
  This is bad history. The Nazis who emerged in power had no ties to socialism. By this logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a purely democratically run country.
  - bnolsen 10y ago
    huh? The nazis were entirely socialist and ran a socialist agenda. That was their platform. Centralized education, centralized health care, strict gun control laws, the list goes on and on.
    - AsyncAwait 10y ago
      As I said above, the "socialism" promised by Hitler was that they should no longer pay for WW1 and since they're a superior race, they're entitled to the labour of Jews, Romas etc. for "free" - that's the "socialism" behind Naziism, just because the words are the same, doesn't mean they're the same thing. Hitler essentially wanted the superior Germans to do nothing and be provided for by lesser races and I presume that's why you think he was a "socialist", but in reality he was much closer to early U.S. history than to socialist ideology. > Centralized education, centralized health care, strict gun control laws More like common sense laws than "socialist" ones if you ask me... This is what upsets me about the right, they're so easily scammed by random screams of "Big government", "centralised health care", "strict gun control", "centralised education" etc. and the counter is simply "FREEDOM, LOW TAXES, PRIVATE HEALTHCARE, "THE BEST PROVIDER WINS" etc. and I get the appeal, these things sound awesome, but the problem is in the details; the "low taxes" are not for you, they're for Apple, Google, Shell etc. "private healthcare" is not excluded under socialism if you want it and can afford it, it's just that it's not the only option and every citizen has some form of healthcare provided, regardless of their socioeconomic status, just by the virtue of the fact that they're...you know...human. The people who say it's too expensive ignore how much is spent on the military, (i.e. US military has 800+ overseas military bases, do you really think you need (all) of them?), the fact that US already spends more on healthcare than virtually any other modern nation and despite this it still has the worst quality healthcare of all of them. "Centralised education" means that creationists in Iowa can't not teach evolution, which I would argue it's a good thing, but again, it's a base, so that everybody gets at least "some" consistent quality of education, it doesn't mean it can't be expanded upon... > strict gun control laws Again, more like common sense, than ideology driven, look up gun deaths in the US vs Europe. If you have a gun in the US you don't actually have an advantage, because everybody else is armed as well, i.e. it's basically as if you didn't have one, but with greater risks of getting shot.

danso 10y ago

Normally I'd call that paranoia. But after reading about the case in which a Goldman Sachs programmer aroused suspicion [0] from the FBI for using "Subversion" and occasionally erasing his "bash history", I think it's reasonable to remember that anything you say can and will be used against use in the eyes of the law [0] http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman-sachs-programmer http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman...

acobster 10y ago

All acts of resistance have consequences. That's because it's important, and "they" know it's important. I think it's reasonable to assume this gets you put on a watchlist if you're not already. As others have (snarkily) pointed out, this is a pretty mild form of resistance, so I'd imagine the consequences would be pretty mild.

tptacek 10y ago

There is no risk to signing this.

azurelogic 10y ago
That's exactly what they want you to think! :tinfoilhat:

clarkmoody 10y ago

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United States has perpetrated terrible violence and destruction of liberty against its own citizens and many more abroad. Through endless military engagement abroad to harassment, detainment, and imprisonment at home, the government serves its own interests first, and enhancing and preserving your liberty is not among them. I should be very concerned about coming to the attention of anyone within government -- at any level. Even the local code enforcement board can extract time, energy, and money from you should you come under scrutiny. But as others have said, you're already on the lists. No need to be paranoid. Go ahead and sign the Snowden petition. It's just one more data point on your dossier. The government already has enough on you to put you away for life if you become inconvenient to the state. Three Felonies a Day[1] and all that. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473864155&sr=8-1&keywords=three+felonies+a+day https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp...

krschultz 10y ago
Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  Depends on what kind of freedoms you are looking for. Many European countries, Germany for example, have better protections from law enforcement and crime. On the other hand free speech is more restricted by libel or hate speech directives.
- lisper 10y ago
  If you want freedom from government interference in your life, Somalia is still a pretty good bet. And no, I am not being facetious. People like to think of freedom as a scalar, but it's actually a vector with complex interactions among its various dimensions, one of which is the government. That said, I am absolutely signing the petition. Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing.

peterkelly 10y ago

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories about which I was especially upset, identifying myself by name and politely but firmly expressing my views. NSA told me to go away, but surprisingly the woman at GCHQ heard me out for several minutes and let me finish my rant. That's the British establishment for you I guess - they can be assholes, but polite assholes. Snowden risked everything to inform us all of the crimes of the FVEY governments and the least we can all do is take inspiration from his actions and stand up and publicly make our views known, whatever they may be. The day people stop being willing to express their political views publicly is the day we lose something very important. NSA - my name and XKEYSCORE selectors are in my profile. Feel free to add me to whatever lists I'm not already on.

bayesian_horse 10y ago
It's not so much about mass surveillance but rather things like the TSA and stupid immigration policies which are at play here. Really, spotting your name on a petition isn't mass surveillance. It's not even a breach of privacy in any sense, because that's exactly what petitions are for.
- ygjb 10y ago
  > Really, spotting your name on a petition isn't mass surveillance. No. The goal of a petition is to show support for a course of action, and in this context, exercising freedom of speech in a democracy. Taking the list of people who signed a petition, assigning a "risk score" to them because of their activism, storing it in a database for the future, and using that as a means to make decisions that affect those individuals freedoms is exactly the purpose of mass surveillance. In isolation, for one petition or one activity, it is a sensible thing. As a general practice it promotes the notion of thought-crime or pre-crime in which an individuals freedoms are curtailed because the individuals exercise of their freedoms is unpalatable to either the elected officials, or the entrenched bureaucracy.

M_Grey 10y ago

North Koreans see themselves as 'The Cleanest People'. We see ourselves as the freest. We're both wrong.

BafS 10y ago

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... What is your definition of "socialist" ? A lot of European countries are "socialists" in a way (always a nuance) but they don't have an aggressive kind of local NSA (even if some have a local NSA).

dclowd9901 10y ago

I tend to doubt your fear is to have your "terrorism points" incremented in some database, but rather the cold and distant nature of the federal government makes it nearly impossible to reason through how you're _not_ a terrorist (assuming you're not). There's no organized mechanism by which you can disprove your terrorism affiliations. Otherwise, being put in a database would be as much an issue as changing the wrong address on your insurance policy.

supernintendo 10y ago

Risks aside, signing this is useless. President Obama hates whistleblowers and will not pardon Mr. Snowden. I would be willing to put money on it.

lisper 10y ago

> what would the risk be for me to sign this? You could end up in prison. It's not likely, but it's possible. Signing this petition could get your name on a secret list of people who are likely terrorist sympathizers, and that in turn could lead to your arrest on trumped-up charges, or perhaps even non-trumped-up charges based on coincidental circumstances that would never have been noticed had you not signed. There are also a whole host of other less serious possible consequences. You could end up on the no-fly list. You could be denied a government job. Who knows? And that is exactly why you must sign. Ed Snowden put a lot on the line so that we can know for sure that we are facing risks like this, and possibly even do something about it. The least we can do IMHO is to take a small risk to help him come home. That's why I signed (and made a modest donation).

riboflava 10y ago

"They seem to have learned the habit of cowering before authority even when not actually threatened. How very nice for authority. I decided not to learn this particular lesson." -- Richard Stallman (http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/109 http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/109)

Taek 10y ago

When you start to feel that way is when you need to stand up the most. We get further into this mess by staying silent out of fear and we get out of it by being millions strong and protesting the state of things.

Taek 10y ago

johnhenry 10y ago

The fact that the United States government can indiscriminately designate people as being "in trouble" and then use this as an excuse to trample upon their rights. The real trouble is a situation in which Snowden is not pardoned.

downandout 10y ago

First the pardon will never happen. Neither Obama nor any other President can or will pardon him, lest they encourage the next Snowden. So signing it will not actually help Snowden. Second, it's entirely possible that your fears will come true - obviously the government will receive your information and they can use it how they see fit. Not only that, but they appear to be running a co-registration campaign with the ACLU, and you don't know exactly who else will get your name, email, and physical address, or who those people will sell it to. I would be also curious to see what kind of remarketing cookies they are using. You can easily be put in the bucket of "HN users that visited the support Snowden page" and be stalked accordingly by advertisers across millions of Adsense-supported sites, Google search, Facebook, and the general web with just two or three remarketing cookies. The creators of this site undoubtedly know that their stated goal will never be accomplished. So this looks more like an attempt to build a marketing database of people with a specific viewpoint than anything else.

nathan_f77 10y ago

If you signed a petition in Thailand, and it had anything to do with the royal family, then you would be arrested and imprisoned under the lese majeste laws. If you signed a petition in North Korea or Syria, you would be tortured and killed. Be thankful that you can exercise your right to sign this petition in the US, and the only thing you might need to worry about is increased scrutiny from the IRS.

natban 10y ago

For a non-US citizen it might be a case, especially if they are thinking about moving there eventually.

morgante 10y ago

Literally millions of Americans think Snowden should be pardoned. Expressing that belief won't make me a target. That being said, I could see the government trotting it out if there were ever a separate case against you. "captainmuon is already known to harbor sympathies for known traitor Edward Snowden."

rayiner 10y ago
I've literally never seen anything like that being trotted out in a case.
- chopin 10y ago
  This comes close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_security_hearing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_security_hearing

pkaeding 10y ago

I don't think they would have a problem with people signing this. It lets the people blow off steam with no real effect. Once you sign it, you think "well, I've done my part. I signed the online petition, and changed my Twitter/Facebook icon."

unusximmortalis 10y ago

The fact that you, the US citizen, asks this questions and has these worries says everything about what US has become, unfortunately.

obelos 10y ago

Pretty sure I was denied clearance because I had made pro-Snowden remarks in public.

deleted 10y ago

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cureyourhead 10y ago

Fate of your country at risk. And you ask where is the risk for you. What's in it for you. That cowardice is a disease of Western culture these days. Ask not...

rayiner 10y ago

I think you're being ridiculous. This is being run through the ACLU, which has over 500,000 members. I just signed and donated $50.

erikb 10y ago

Why do you think this won't happen if you write that exact comment here? Quite sure for writing here we are all added to the database or our attention factor gets slightly increased if we already are in it, maybe depending on how critical the word cloud of our comment looks to their analytics software. And don't think it's different if you are a US citizen or not. They probably add people from everywhere. A few billion data sets are probably not as big a deal anymore nowadays.

sriku 10y ago

I don't know what to make of this. We lose if Snowden is "pardoned", because that would mean he did something morally wrong. Snowden loses his life in the US if he's not pardoned. I'm not American, but the issue cuts across all countries and Snowden is a representative.

jcoffland 10y ago

A lot of Germans had this attitude back in the late 30s early 40s.

nicnash08 10y ago

This exactly why I think we should sign it. The fact that you now second guess everything shows this is very wrong. It will only get worse if we keep our mouths closed.

Myrmornis 10y ago

Even if there is some correlation between signing this petition and some of the things you say, the expected (in the statistical sense) damage to you is tiny compared to the cause in question and the principles, so frankly I think it is lame of you to even be writing about this, and I don't think it should be the top comment. It makes HN readers look like a bunch of #firstworldproblemers lacking perspective and fretting about minor inconveniences to their privileged lifestyles.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

I think about this sort of thing quite often, actually: Your fears are exactly why i've not signed it. I'm American, living in Norway. I don't really plan on living in the states again, but I very much want to be able to visit family. I already wonder if that doesn't put me on some sort of secret list, but there isn't a decent way for me to find out. I don't even feel I have adequate representation anymore - I can vote based on my previous address in the US, but I highly doubt I'd be listened to. Not that it was adequate to begin with, but I at least had the facade. It is really unnerving truth be told.

smsm42 10y ago

> I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? I would be hugely surprised to learn that anybody would spend any time or attention to whoever votes how on a petition. There are thousands of those and only so many border agents, and making trouble to an US citizen carries a non-zero risk. Your profile is too low for that. > Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Possible, but other things should be like donating to known ISIS front or frequenting a Hezbollah darksite, or something like that. Otherwise it's just noise. > Increased scrutiny from the IRS Unlikely, IRS is interested in money, not online petitions. You'd need to do something more spectacular to deserve special scrutiny, that puts you out of the crowd. Voting on online petition puts you in the crowd. > but "they" might say hell why not? Customized treatment on these scales is rather expensive. If voting on online petition had triggered customized treatment, they'd have to do a lot of useless "increased scrutiny". If they did, you won't be different from millions of people, but most probably they don't. > Inability to get security clearances in future? Security clearance is one area where such scrutiny could be warranted. But given who gets clearances, at least at low levels (like terror operatives working at airports and security companies, etc.) not likely unless we're talking about very high clearance levels. > Being targeted for more intense data collection by the NSA? Unlikely, again, you'd have to get out of the noise level for that and voting on a petition does not do that. If you'd be a close personal friend of Snowden then it'd be a different thing... If Snowden revealed something is that the NSA and accompanied services are very smart, very powerful and very resourceful in achieving their goals. Nothing suggests they are so stupid as being unable to distinguish between signal and noise. They may be collecting a lot, but it all would be useless if they couldn't distinguish between interesting things and noise. Signing an online petition is noise.

joe563323 10y ago

There might be a risk. But if you do not act the risk is much higher. I am not talking about social good or sacrifice. Just think about the state in which your children's and their children's will live in. It is not worth living in a state like that. Its like we are being prepared for breeding future slaves.

raldu 10y ago

Asking, "Will the government persecute me if I democratically voice my opinion against a crime executed by the same government?", is exactly the type of questioning that should be avoided. It is same as asking, "Will the mafia kill me if I speak the truth about the murder as an eyewitness?" Government is not supposed to operate like a mafia. (But sure they can violate Human Rights and the Constitution, and public will not even care.) However, I am afraid by asking that very question we are already talking from within the context of a regime that is "totalitarian". The various degrees to which an average US citizen believes that they are not in a totalitarian country unlike those "other" "socialist" or whatever countries out there, is irrelevant: Surveillance is Totalitarianism. It is no surprise for people get paranoid in a country with large-scale surveillance technology. And that's the point. Because it has never been merely about the "terrorists" who are "out there"... For people who are concerned about getting a "high score" in whatever threat inventory, we are all a threat already. That's the very basic rationale behind mass-surveillance. For the record, a majority of HN members would hypothetically get pretty "high scores"... Back to the topic of the thread, Obama will not pardon Snowden.

metaphorm 10y ago

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... what does socialism have to do with this? maybe you meant to say "a mode of thought I would expect in totalitarian police states..." it's true that some totalitarian police states have, nominally if not really in practice, also been socialist. however, there have been just as many fascist, capitalist, monarchist, and theocratic totalitarian police states as well. so I ask again...what does socialism have to do with this?

a3n 10y ago

I had a similar thought, but it was more just normal internet guardedness: I don't know who these people are that are asking for my PII.

pbarnes_1 10y ago

Uhm... Bernie Sanders signed this. I think you'll be okay.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

Paranoid? Naah. I'm working on the assumption this site (pardonsnowden.org) is run by the CIA, or one of it's proxies, whatever, to gather the names of Snowden sympathisers. Surely, right. If history has taught us anything. I mean, we know some of the things the CIA has gotten up in the past.

pasbesoin 10y ago

I made a small donation to Glenn Greenwald, back when he was writing for Salon. (Back when concerns were hanging chads, weapons of mass deception, and the like.) I've had occasion in recent years to speculate how many lists that has put me on. And to explain to a few friends "three degrees of separation" and what that might imply for them, as well. I don't particularly like being listed. But I really don't like and fear the utter lack of transparency and accountability, and how such information can and apparently is "weaponized" against individuals for personal, political, and financial objectives. Not only is it scary. It is, ultimately, a wasteful mis-use of resources. All this dirt digging and slinging and lawyering up takes away from more useful activity. Like fixing blight and illness before it engenders disfunction. Call me an optimist. I believe -- or at least hope -- that we can do better. I'm tired of living in perpetual fear.

MichaelMoser123 10y ago

They would have to man in the middle the petition site to log you as it is in https. Can they do that for everybody just like that? I am not sure.

mszyndel 10y ago

The problem seems to be that you use "socialist" as a replacement for totalitarian. And since you don't even know your enemy...

deleted 10y ago

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socmag 10y ago

Better to be on the right side of history. I mean, if you are asking the question, you have already made a personal decision that you would like to sign it. Not doing so would be betraying yourself. That would be worse than not getting a security clearance I would have thought. In any case, I doubt the spooks would be really that bothered. You can still spy AND take the moral high road :-)

ashitlerferad 10y ago

I'd be more worried about the consequences of not signing it.

random42 10y ago

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... I hate this notion. I stay in India -- a socialist nation, which has its own problems but "lack of freedom" compared to any other nation in the world is not one of them.

csomar 10y ago

I think the point is, the reason you are doing this is to mitigate the very same effects you are afraid from. You are now concerned about getting on the no-fly list. Think about being concerned doing a Google Search, Buying this item, Putting much money into this and this.