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> Needless to say, this is not making some users very happy. Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when

> Needless to say, this is not making some users very happy. Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when he walked into a McDonald's and was prompted on his phone to download the fast food restaurant's app. Apple has iBeacons which can do this, sans GPS. I wonder if this user would be just as upset the prompt wasn't initiated from GPS location tracking? Personally I think they are cool tech in theory but in practice kind of creepy.

xg15 10y ago
Considering iBeacons can be used for even more precise tracking (though restricted to areas where beacons are around) I very much hope they would.
jfktrey 10y ago
Really, the only reason it's creepy is because it actualizes the difference between what a user thinks the location services know, and what they actually know. Your phone pretty much always knows roughly where you are, it usually just doesn't brag about it.
- xg15 10y ago
  At least from a technical standpoint, yes, my phone knows - but it's not necessary that any google apps know or that the information is sent back to any kind of server.
- ethbro 10y ago
  Doesn't brag about it is a bit mild of a way of putting it. I'd phrase it more as "specifically chooses not to educate users that capability is present because everyone in the industry knows it would scare the hell out of normal users."
  - xg15 10y ago
    Well, it can be quite entertaining to show the Google Location History page to people who never heard of it before...
    - stan_programmer 10y ago
      I love introducing people to Google Location History...
      - sharemywin 10y ago
        I created an gmail for my phone that I never used. My regular google account isn't tied to it.
- api 10y ago
  That's been true for as long as there's been cellular to some extent. It's not hard to triangulate with multiple towers.
- compiler-guy 10y ago
  Your phone knows your location, of course, but doesn't have to communicate your location to a third party.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    Mobile networks track the location of connected devices all the time. That's how they know where to find you if someone calls you or sends you a message. The problem we have with a lot of modern technology, and particularly communications and payment technologies, is that while some degree of personal identification and association with specific locations or actions is necessary to perform their function, that same information is readily repurposed and easily shared if there are no rules to prevent it, or almost equivalently, if there are no effective sanctions if rules that do exist are breached.
    - leephillips 10y ago
      Well said. I would add that while "Mobile networks track the location of connected devices all the time. That's how they know where to find you if someone calls you or sends you a message" this is at the cell level; Google knows what particular store you're in, by using its WiFi database and GPS: much finer grained.
      - Silhouette 10y ago
        this is at the cell level; Google knows what particular store you're in, by using its WiFi database and GPS: much finer grained. For a single tower, yes. In practice, if you're within range of multiple cell towers, a little physics and mathematics will determine your location much more precisely, assuming knowledge of each tower's exact location, the relative signal strength received from your device at each tower, and ideally any confounding factors like awkward terrain or local sources of interference. As an aside, if things are going wrong on the network, it's a fair bet that engineers will be out driving around with directed antennae that will find any given rogue transmitter even using a single receiver given a bit of time. This one's not so much of a privacy concern, though, given that it only tends to be used as necessary to resolve specific problems.
kyrra 10y ago
As does google: https://developers.google.com/beacons/ https://developers.google.com/beacons/ My guess the prompt to install an app was a BTLE beacon.
- aorloff 10y ago
  Can beacons trigger a notification without an app listener already installed ? On iOS they can't.
  - kyrra 10y ago
    iOS you get a lock screen notification in the bottom-left of the screen I thought. Looking Android there may be no native notification for beacons, but any app with Bluetooth background access could present the beacons as notifications. I think we would need more details to know exactly how he was promoted. The article is fairly vague on this.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
__jal 10y ago
I mostly agree. With my iPhone, I disable wifi and bluetooth when I leave the house (We don't allow cell phone wifi at work, I don't drive very often, and if I'm sticking around somewhere with wifi for a while, I may choose to turn it on there). Unless I forget, of course. A phone a while back had a feature I really want - it would do that automatically (I think it was the phone Phil Zimmerman was involved in). Don't see Apple doing that anytime soon, though. My feeling is that the businesses and other nosy APs on my way to work and along other corridors I walk can review/keep automated logs of my comings and goings when they establish an API allowing me access to me theirs. And this is reason #643 for why I've deleted Google Maps, only use Gmail accounts as spam-buckets, use DDG, and generally have mostly cut Google out of my life. I started with an iPhone before Android existed, so I can't say they chased me away, but $%&#, my girlfriend doesn't need to know that much detail about my life; why on earth would I pay good money to send it to Google?
- mercer 10y ago
  > A phone a while back had a feature I really want - it would do that automatically (I think it was the phone Phil Zimmerman was involved in). Don't see Apple doing that anytime soon, though. I vaguely recall there being an Android mod or app that allows you to automate all sorts of things, with your feature being an example of what was possible. On my mac, I use Hammerspoon to do some of this. For example, whenever I connect to a wifi network that isn't my home network, the volume is automatically muted. No more accidental nature videos playing at full volume in a public place! I do wish I could do something like this with my iPhone. Currently I also turn off wifi manually whenever I leave the house and I feel a bit dirty every time that I travel and I find out that I forgot to do so.
DashRattlesnake 10y ago
> Apple has iBeacons which can do this, sans GPS. I wonder if this user would be just as upset the prompt wasn't initiated from GPS location tracking? > Personally I think they are cool tech in theory but in practice kind of creepy. If it was a beacon, a little message explaining so would go a long way towards making the experience less creepy. I've found little bits of "unnecessary" why-type explanation go a long way towards increasing user comfort.
tracker1 10y ago
I have mixed feelings about it tbh... I actually appreciate some things I see in Google Now, and even the locations I've gone to, asking for reviews, etc... On the flip side it was really weird the first time I ever saw "You must leave in 2 hours to make your flight", because my ticket receipt came into my gmail, and google now does quite a bit to tether email stuff to notifications, they seem to have ical files in email integrated now.
rtpg 10y ago
Could this just have been the Physical Web stuff?
guelo 10y ago
Apple's iBeacons only work after you install the app. The beacon IDs are mapped to a specific app and other apps can't see them. You would have to have the McDonalds app installed for McDonalds to be able to ping you when you walk in the store.

xg15 10y ago

Considering iBeacons can be used for even more precise tracking (though restricted to areas where beacons are around) I very much hope they would.

jfktrey 10y ago

Really, the only reason it's creepy is because it actualizes the difference between what a user thinks the location services know, and what they actually know. Your phone pretty much always knows roughly where you are, it usually just doesn't brag about it.

xg15 10y ago
At least from a technical standpoint, yes, my phone knows - but it's not necessary that any google apps know or that the information is sent back to any kind of server.
ethbro 10y ago
Doesn't brag about it is a bit mild of a way of putting it. I'd phrase it more as "specifically chooses not to educate users that capability is present because everyone in the industry knows it would scare the hell out of normal users."
- xg15 10y ago
  Well, it can be quite entertaining to show the Google Location History page to people who never heard of it before...
  - stan_programmer 10y ago
    I love introducing people to Google Location History...
    - sharemywin 10y ago
      I created an gmail for my phone that I never used. My regular google account isn't tied to it.
api 10y ago
That's been true for as long as there's been cellular to some extent. It's not hard to triangulate with multiple towers.
compiler-guy 10y ago
Your phone knows your location, of course, but doesn't have to communicate your location to a third party.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Mobile networks track the location of connected devices all the time. That's how they know where to find you if someone calls you or sends you a message. The problem we have with a lot of modern technology, and particularly communications and payment technologies, is that while some degree of personal identification and association with specific locations or actions is necessary to perform their function, that same information is readily repurposed and easily shared if there are no rules to prevent it, or almost equivalently, if there are no effective sanctions if rules that do exist are breached.
  - leephillips 10y ago
    Well said. I would add that while "Mobile networks track the location of connected devices all the time. That's how they know where to find you if someone calls you or sends you a message" this is at the cell level; Google knows what particular store you're in, by using its WiFi database and GPS: much finer grained.
    - Silhouette 10y ago
      this is at the cell level; Google knows what particular store you're in, by using its WiFi database and GPS: much finer grained. For a single tower, yes. In practice, if you're within range of multiple cell towers, a little physics and mathematics will determine your location much more precisely, assuming knowledge of each tower's exact location, the relative signal strength received from your device at each tower, and ideally any confounding factors like awkward terrain or local sources of interference. As an aside, if things are going wrong on the network, it's a fair bet that engineers will be out driving around with directed antennae that will find any given rogue transmitter even using a single receiver given a bit of time. This one's not so much of a privacy concern, though, given that it only tends to be used as necessary to resolve specific problems.

kyrra 10y ago

As does google: https://developers.google.com/beacons/ https://developers.google.com/beacons/ My guess the prompt to install an app was a BTLE beacon.

aorloff 10y ago
Can beacons trigger a notification without an app listener already installed ? On iOS they can't.
- kyrra 10y ago
  iOS you get a lock screen notification in the bottom-left of the screen I thought. Looking Android there may be no native notification for beacons, but any app with Bluetooth background access could present the beacons as notifications. I think we would need more details to know exactly how he was promoted. The article is fairly vague on this.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

__jal 10y ago

I mostly agree. With my iPhone, I disable wifi and bluetooth when I leave the house (We don't allow cell phone wifi at work, I don't drive very often, and if I'm sticking around somewhere with wifi for a while, I may choose to turn it on there). Unless I forget, of course. A phone a while back had a feature I really want - it would do that automatically (I think it was the phone Phil Zimmerman was involved in). Don't see Apple doing that anytime soon, though. My feeling is that the businesses and other nosy APs on my way to work and along other corridors I walk can review/keep automated logs of my comings and goings when they establish an API allowing me access to me theirs. And this is reason #643 for why I've deleted Google Maps, only use Gmail accounts as spam-buckets, use DDG, and generally have mostly cut Google out of my life. I started with an iPhone before Android existed, so I can't say they chased me away, but $%&#, my girlfriend doesn't need to know that much detail about my life; why on earth would I pay good money to send it to Google?

mercer 10y ago
> A phone a while back had a feature I really want - it would do that automatically (I think it was the phone Phil Zimmerman was involved in). Don't see Apple doing that anytime soon, though. I vaguely recall there being an Android mod or app that allows you to automate all sorts of things, with your feature being an example of what was possible. On my mac, I use Hammerspoon to do some of this. For example, whenever I connect to a wifi network that isn't my home network, the volume is automatically muted. No more accidental nature videos playing at full volume in a public place! I do wish I could do something like this with my iPhone. Currently I also turn off wifi manually whenever I leave the house and I feel a bit dirty every time that I travel and I find out that I forgot to do so.

DashRattlesnake 10y ago

> Apple has iBeacons which can do this, sans GPS. I wonder if this user would be just as upset the prompt wasn't initiated from GPS location tracking? > Personally I think they are cool tech in theory but in practice kind of creepy. If it was a beacon, a little message explaining so would go a long way towards making the experience less creepy. I've found little bits of "unnecessary" why-type explanation go a long way towards increasing user comfort.

tracker1 10y ago

I have mixed feelings about it tbh... I actually appreciate some things I see in Google Now, and even the locations I've gone to, asking for reviews, etc... On the flip side it was really weird the first time I ever saw "You must leave in 2 hours to make your flight", because my ticket receipt came into my gmail, and google now does quite a bit to tether email stuff to notifications, they seem to have ical files in email integrated now.

rtpg 10y ago

Could this just have been the Physical Web stuff?

guelo 10y ago

Apple's iBeacons only work after you install the app. The beacon IDs are mapped to a specific app and other apps can't see them. You would have to have the McDonalds app installed for McDonalds to be able to ping you when you walk in the store.