13 ms·

Why does Google Play need constant GPS?

152 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

cosfoo 10y ago
On iOS you'll also be tracked 24/7 by Google if you have Waze installed. Hiding behind the "being a traffic crowdsourcing app, we need location data from everyone" it doesn't allow you to use the location sharing option "while using the app", it's either always or never. And there's a purple arrow next to it each time you're driving, a sign that it's currently tracking you, even if the app is closed. (Gray means past 24h). Probably they use accelerometer data to know when you've started driving.
CPAhem 10y ago
No comment from Google as to why they do this.
- AtheistOfFail 10y ago
  Give you two guesses and the answer is "Your data as a guinea pig is worth a lot"
  - trendia 10y ago
    The data is not even worth that much. Estimates are that it's less than $1 / user / month. But Google does it anyway, because it costs them less than that to implement. edit: For instance, Facebook says each user is worth about $0.73 / user / month. [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-are-you-worth-to-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-...
    - goatlover 10y ago
      $1 for a billion+ users? Long as it costs them less, should add up to nice sum per month.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago
      Individually its not worth much. But the collection from everyone is worth a lot.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      North americans are worth over 4 dollars a month according to that.
      - trendia 10y ago
        4 dollars per 3 months: > If you happen to live in Europe, including the UK, you’re only worth one-third of a North American to Facebook, at $4.50 every three months, while the “rest of the world”, which includes most developing nations are only worth $1.22 per user. That's about $1.50 / user / month... which is higher than I thought. brb, going to start social network
        serge2k 10y ago
        > You may be surprised to hear that a US or Canadian user is worth $13.54 each quarter to Facebook, 4 dollars a month.
- serge2k 10y ago
  You bought a phone with an OS developed by (and using services provided by) an Ad company. What did you expect.
- WallowingB_36 10y ago
  While an official statement would be nice, I suspect at least one reason is right in the article: "Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when he walked into a McDonald's and was prompted on his phone to download the fast food restaurant's app." Google makes most of its money selling your attention to marketers. This could easily be used to tailor ads. Within 100 yards of Barnes and Noble? "Ding! Get 10% off your purchase when you present this QR code!"
  - redblacktree 10y ago
    Not sure why, but your second-ever comment (not this one) is dead. You may be shadowbanned -- fyi. Both of your comments seemed reasonable to me.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  So my workplace was looking at ESBs and suddenly all the sites I visited had ads for MuleSoft and WSO2. Over the last week or two any browser in my home not using an ad-blocker sees heaps of MuleSoft ads. Almost as though the ad network has noticed that my phone at work travels to my house and has created a linkage between the two.
  - shostack 10y ago
    This is probably less savvy than that. If you login to various apps across devices, particularly a Google account, they are linked by a GUID. This can then be used for retargeting purposes as the advertiser wants to target the person and usually not just the particular device/cookie.
    - rodgerd 10y ago
      To clarify: the ads migrated from being served to my work PC (where I never log into a personal Google account), to my phone (on the same network), to my home PCs (including other people who aren't using my personal Google account).
taspeotis 10y ago
> Needless to say, this is not making some users very happy. Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when he walked into a McDonald's and was prompted on his phone to download the fast food restaurant's app. Apple has iBeacons which can do this, sans GPS. I wonder if this user would be just as upset the prompt wasn't initiated from GPS location tracking? Personally I think they are cool tech in theory but in practice kind of creepy.
- xg15 10y ago
  Considering iBeacons can be used for even more precise tracking (though restricted to areas where beacons are around) I very much hope they would.
- jfktrey 10y ago
  Really, the only reason it's creepy is because it actualizes the difference between what a user thinks the location services know, and what they actually know. Your phone pretty much always knows roughly where you are, it usually just doesn't brag about it.
  - xg15 10y ago
    At least from a technical standpoint, yes, my phone knows - but it's not necessary that any google apps know or that the information is sent back to any kind of server.
  - ethbro 10y ago
    Doesn't brag about it is a bit mild of a way of putting it. I'd phrase it more as "specifically chooses not to educate users that capability is present because everyone in the industry knows it would scare the hell out of normal users."
    - xg15 10y ago
      Well, it can be quite entertaining to show the Google Location History page to people who never heard of it before...
fowlerpower 10y ago
Don't be evil. Well that's been thrown out the window...
- topbanana 10y ago
  Come on - evil? It's not like they're selling your location history to kidnapping gangs. It's just advertising - it helps keep the economy churning.
  - stonogo 10y ago
    Yes, evil. It also keeps some folks' stomachs churning. There is a certain segment of society who knows exactly what's being done with this massive surveillance network. That segment generally does not contain the people who are under surveillance. The fact that Google knows it has to be coy about it knows that it's unsavory. And exactly what assurances do we have that Google is properly vetting access to this information, given their complete lack of customer service and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business?
    - jptman 10y ago
      > And exactly what assurances do we have that Google is properly vetting access to this information, given their complete lack of customer service and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business? reply You could probably ask the thousands of ex-employees who'd love to make $$ by breaking the story to the media. Don't you think it would sell? Also, often when I hear stories about that company not providing support, it's for a service that has at the very least hundreds of thousands of clients/users, a lot of whom pay very little or nothing. How would you provide support to all of them? Would someone who spends $1Mil / yr on Ads have trouble reaching someone quickly?
    - mastazi 10y ago
      > There is a certain segment of society who knows exactly what's being done with this massive surveillance network. That segment generally does not contain the people who are under surveillance. Can you elaborate? Not criticising, genuinely interested. Given that "people who are under surveillance" are generally aware of the revelations made to the press by Snowden and others, I suppose you mean something else, hence my curiosity. > and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business From a business perspective their ad network is hugely successful, what do you mean by saying "inability to properly run"? Or perhaps you refer to the lack of privacy options offered to the public?
Psilidae 10y ago
It's weird that the writer is suggesting it's mysterious why Google Play would even need access to GPS, when at least one reason is obvious from the example in the article itself: to prompt people to download certain apps when they enter various locations.
- lern_too_spel 10y ago
  There is no way to tell the Google Play Store where your stores are in the developer console. This is just a beacon, and the security researcher confused Google Play Services with Google Play Store.
totalZero 10y ago
I wonder if there's a more sinister reason for this than simply, "we want more data for ads." It always freaks me out that Google asks me to review places where I eat, drink, and hang out.
- imglorp 10y ago
  http://www.infowars.com/googles-deep-cia-and-nsa-connections/ http://www.infowars.com/googles-deep-cia-and-nsa-connections...
  - api 10y ago
    There are more credible sources on this kind of thing. It would be better to link to one of those instead of to Alex Jones' fear porn for profit rag. If anything, sites like his help bury information like this by associating it with crackpot trash.
    - imglorp 10y ago
      True, that's a crappy source. But the pentagon/google and in-q-tel/FB connections are well established.
- tomc1985 10y ago
  Now, I'm treated to piece of "help thousands with your photo!" bullshit every time I take a picture. Fuck you google
- darren_ 10y ago
  The sinister reason for this is that Google wants better data about places (so the service is more useful, so more people use it, so more ads are served, and so on).
mtgx 10y ago
Relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackberry/comments/3s26ym/priv_owners_a_request/ https://www.reddit.com/r/blackberry/comments/3s26ym/priv_own... Google Play Services probably does it so that all Android in-app ads can use the location as well through it. I doubt this is very legal in the EU, as the user hasn't given "explicit consent" for this. It might be worth mentioning it to @vestager on Twitter, who's already been lining up official antitrust charges against Google.
- shostack 10y ago
  So that is basically an end run around blocking location services on an individual app basis?
  - tacomonstrous 10y ago
    No, apps need the location permission to use Play location services.
duncan_bayne 10y ago
When people ask me why I want my next phone to be an Ubuntu device, I point them at articles like these.
- justinclift 10y ago
  If you're thinking Canonical wouldn't sell its users down the river, there's a bridge for sale in Brooklyn you might like...
  - mastazi 10y ago
    Unfortunately you are right. "GNU/Linux inside" is not sufficient to guarantee your privacy (not to mention that Android is Linux-based too): what we would really need is a community-developed mobile OS.
    - abawany 10y ago
      Hopefully eventually this will become more prevalent https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile . Also, I will say that some of the AOSP-based distros, such as Cyanogenmod, run just fine without Google Play installed; you get most of the (open-source) apps from F-Droid or if you need something from the Play store, sideloading or downloading from APKPure is a possibility.
      - mastazi 10y ago
        Thanks, as an Android user I should probably go for Cyanogenmod. I have used it in the past and I liked it.
  - awqrre 10y ago
    Canonical have already done a few questionable things with Ubuntu (when thinking about privacy) but I think that they are still the best OS from a usability and privacy standpoint...
    - 10y ago
mark_l_watson 10y ago
Is this a big deal? I almost always turn GPS off anyway. I turn GPS on when I am travelling, and very occasionally for a minute if I use Google Map. GPS runs the battery down. Is GPS something most users leave turned on? I thought the article would be about tracking via wifi use, which they probably do.
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  GPS is always on. "Off" is just slower updates to conserve power.
- overcast 10y ago
  GPS is nice to add exif info to photos. Also, who wants to turn GPS on and off, every time you're using maps?
  - recursive 10y ago
    Me. It's like two clicks. It used to be one when I kept a widget for that purpose on my home screen. I also turn off bluetooth and wifi if I'm not using them.
    - overcast 10y ago
      You know what happens when you force a user to do an extra two clicks to accomplish something that should take one? They don't do it.
      - recursive 10y ago
        Yes. I'm not sure how that's relevant. I'm not just "some user". I'm actually me, and I know what my actual behavior actually is. I'm just describing what I actually do, not prescribing what someone should do.
  - marak830 10y ago
    I do. I thought everyone did.
hyperpallium 10y ago
Wifi gives pretty good location data, and most Mcdonalds provide wifi. By default, Android 5 lollipop constantly scans wifi (draining battery), and the toggle-off is hidden in some menus.
- hammock 10y ago
  If it's Wifi, all McDonald's has to do is buy targeted ads against web traffic coming from the IPs of its Wifi routers.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
whocomments 10y ago
"almost had a heart attack" Did he figure out if it the Google location tracking or the McDonald's food? :)
ChuckMcM 10y ago
I expect the location requirement is coming to Google from the media companies. As lots of media is licensed for a particular market, and there are a number of easy VPN solutions that can disguise your IP (and your nominal location) the only way to be "sure" of where you are is to ask the GPS unit. This allows Google Play to do "region coding" and for apps to call a standard API to enforce their own region coding requirements (say netflix or other streaming services).
cachvico 10y ago
Seems to be Android's answer to iOS lock-screen app suggestions (since iOS 8; 2014) - https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/03/apple-delivers-location-based-app-suggestions-on-your-lock-screen-in-ios-8/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/03/apple-delivers-location-ba... ?
angryasian 10y ago
I don't see what the issue is. Google knows your location, your phone provider knows your location without asking, and probably many other apps that you've given location access to knows where your location is. They can use information like GPS, ip address and cell towers. So I don't know why this clickbait article is just pointing out these two google apps.
- lisper 10y ago
  > I don't see what the issue is. Seriously? > Google knows your location, Yes, that's the issue: you can no longer deny Google the ability to know your location as long as either Maps or Play is installed. > your phone provider knows your location without asking First, Google is not my phone provider, and second, my provider only has access to cell tower info, not GPS info. GPS info is much more precise than tower info, and it's obviously not possible to deny cell tower info to the provider. > and probably many other apps that you've given location access to knows where your location is. The key phrase there being "that you have given access to". You cannot turn off access to Maps and Play and more. That's the problem.
darren_ 10y ago
FTA: "The same is true of Google Maps. Although it makes far more sense for Maps to have access to your location, the latest build doesn't give you the option of turning it off. To do that, you have to turn off GPS on your phone altogether." You can, of course, switch off location for google maps on android, and I'm surprised this article wasn't fact-checked for that. Settings->Apps->Maps->Permissions. Same as any other app. I'm assuming the confusion is because the 'location settings' option in maps settings takes you to the phone's global location settings screen, which does only offer a global toggle. I don't think there's anything nefarious there, it's just that the settings menu isn't terribly well thought out. disclaimer: googler on maps, but not android maps edit: The article has been updated and now reads: "Although it makes far more sense for Maps to have access to your location, the latest build doesn't give you a decent option of turning it off. If you do cut off Maps' access to your location, "basic features of your device may no longer function as intended," the operating system warns." Not that they've bothered to update the rest of the article.
- trendia 10y ago
  I wonder if disabling "Location services" in Android fully disables it. There is a definite conflict of interest with Google, since they both write the operating system and rely on location data.
  - brbsix 10y ago
    To me, the concerning bit of software is not the operating system (which is open source and fairly transparent) but rather Google Play Services, which is a proprietary background service that has nearly complete access to your device. Unfortunately so many applications make use of it that it's hard to ditch. There are open source efforts to replace it [0] but AFAIK nothing ready for consumers. [0]: http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-microg-gmscore-floss-play-services-t3217616 http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-micro...
- ryukafalz 10y ago
  This is what kinda bugs me about Android permissions - they're very binary. Either an app has location permissions or it doesn't. Personally, I would love to be able to say "Google Maps has access to location info while it's in the foreground, but not while in the background." For that matter, it'd be nice if I could stop certain apps from running in the background at all. A task killer isn't the answer here - a few seconds is enough to gather some data and transmit it, and at that point the damage is done.
Animats 10y ago
You can use Android phones without a Google account or Google Play. But, as an act of revenge, Google broke voice dialing for people who do that.
Vera527 10y ago
It's time to switch to Apple.
- taormina 10y ago
  Apple does this too. They just bury it 4 or 5 system levels deep before you can see that they track you everywhere and recognize your home, work, and other frequently visited locations.
  - favorited 10y ago
    On iOS, location tracking is configurable per-app, at least. I can deny the Weather app the use of my location data while allowing the Camera app to access it.
  - okket 10y ago
    > Apple does this too. Do you have any proof that Apple uses this information for advertising purposes? Their privacy statements say otherwise. This would be a huge deal.
    - taormina 10y ago
      I have no proof that it is being used for advertising, but they do still have a copy of everything. Who's to know what their future thoughts about advertising will be. It's their Frequent Locations feature.
Vera527 10y ago
It's time to switch to an iStone,I mean iPhone.
em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
Use Cyanogenmod sans Google, or Replicant. Use OpenStreetMap apps like osmand for navigation.
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  I've been trying to whittle down my Nexus to F-Droid only apps because I want to eventually get on a ROM without Google. I'm stuck on the native phone and messenger apps because I'm on Project Fi and the way they run that stuff is odd but I know there are good replacements for those once I get off that. The one app I can't get seem to give up willingly is Maps and it's all because of search. OsmAnd does navigation just fine for me, but finding the place I want to go is really, really difficult. In a pinch, I don't want to be stuck doing web searches to find addresses and then figure out how to turn them into coordinates. I've got AddressToGPS which is ok but it doesn't always find what I'm looking for and there's no ability to search near my current location that I can find, which is a key feature. Is there a better solution?
guelo 10y ago
It seems like Google is trying to slowly boil the frog of location based ads. It started with Map Places reviews, which doesn't feel like an ad but it's annoying. I haven't seen anything like the McDonalds ad but that would infuriate me. At least I can disable permissions on the Play app.
relics443 10y ago
I'm willing to bet that they're using the Nearby and Geofence APIs (or even the Awareness API) for this, as opposed to keeping GPS running all the time.
lern_too_spel 10y ago
Google Play Services provides Google's aGPS abstraction. Whenever an app asks for location data and doesn't want to use much battery, it asks Google Play Services, which will return coarse location data, cached location data, or GPS data as requested by the app. McDonald's uses a beacon protocol to suggest downloading an app without using location data. This security researcher just doesn't understand anything about his phone.
tdkl 10y ago
I see the location icon every time I launch the Google Play Store app and sometimes when unlocking the phone for reasons unknown. Nearby is disabled (which still leaves the Nearby Google Play Services (GPS) service running sometimes). Google Play Services are a trojan horse and a mobile device battery murderer. It takes away the power over your device. Have issues with it? Tough luck, if you'll downgrade, it'll be updated back automatically. I want Android before 2012 back and not this proprietary fuckup.
leephillips 10y ago
A bit off topic, but I also almost had a heart attack recently when I got a notification identifying a product that I had recently taken a picture of. I have Google Goggles installed (it does this), but I had taken this picture with the normal camera app. A recent update sends all the user's pictures to the Goggles service. That means that any picture you take with the phone is sent to Google's servers for analysis, unless you know it's happening and figure out how to turn it off. (I was also impressed, as this was an obscure product: a bottle of fermented rice drink from Korea.)
- HNSucksAss 10y ago
  Which is why "just use Google apps for everything" is not a legitimate workaround to the lack of a comprehensive syncing solution on Android.
taormina 10y ago
I feel like this is the same thing that Samsung does with Bluetooth. Whenever you disable it, they make sure that the low-power Bluetooth stays on. "Otherwise, how would our beacons and geofences work on the customers who explicitly don't want it?" At least Google can claim that they are collecting location on behalf of the rest of the Android apps on your phone.
helthanatos 10y ago
Well, I personally have my GPS off most of the time. That doesn't prevent mobile or WiFi location snooping, but it doesn't eat as much battery as it would if it was left on. Google Play Services are a terrible waste of battery. It's sad there are no options to opt out (provided by Google). Most people don't know/care about opt outs normally, anyway, so it wouldn't be a great loss of revenue to provide such an option.
novaleaf 10y ago
i bought an android 6.0 device a couple days ago. (Moto G4) On android 6 you can enable/disable individual permissions on each app, however Google Play already had location disabled.
okket 10y ago
What do you expect from an OS developed by a company that only makes money by selling ads?
- EJTH 10y ago
  Thats not true! They also make lots of money dumping our private data and transactions into XKEYSCORE
Grue3 10y ago
So, this is what murders my phone's battery? I thought it was weird that GPS icon has been always active recently, and that my battery juice tends to start rapidly dropping sometimes without any reason. Now the only way I can use my phone without constantly charging is turning GPS off completely.
- babebridou 10y ago
  It's really strange to me. I noticed yesterday that the Play app started leaking battery like crazy on my Nexus 5. 100%-0% within 10 hours of idle, 33% due to Google Play Store. Today, 6 hours since the full charge I'm looking again at the battery screen: 38% battery left. 16% Chrome (Background CPU: 1min 24s, Foreground CPU: 16s, GSM: 2h36min 58s) 16% Google Play Store (Total CPU: 10s, GPS: 6h 20min 6s, GSM: 1min28s) 6% Screen 4% Android system Chrome is most surprising, as it's not usually there. I did a single web search three hours ago though. The phone is idle all day otherwise. There's something rotten in the mobile software industry that's literally making our pockets warm for no good reason. Dear Google, please at least be a good citizen in your own ecosystem.
MatthewWilkes 10y ago
The McDonalds prompting sounds more like a use of the Nearby Notifications API in Play Services ( https://developers.google.com/nearby/notifications/overview https://developers.google.com/nearby/notifications/overview ) than simply due to location monitoring. I can't say for sure, though.
jwatte 10y ago
My guess: GPS tells you what country and city you are in, so licensed Google play content can be restricted by geography. All hail our overlords the content restriction owners!

152 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

On iOS you'll also be tracked 24/7 by Google if you have Waze installed. Hiding behind the "being a traffic crowdsourcing app, we need location data from everyone" it doesn't allow you to use the location sharing option "while using the app", it's either always or never. And there's a purple arrow next to it each time you're driving, a sign that it's currently tracking you, even if the app is closed. (Gray means past 24h). Probably they use accelerometer data to know when you've started driving.

CPAhem 10y ago

No comment from Google as to why they do this.

AtheistOfFail 10y ago
Give you two guesses and the answer is "Your data as a guinea pig is worth a lot"
- trendia 10y ago
  The data is not even worth that much. Estimates are that it's less than $1 / user / month. But Google does it anyway, because it costs them less than that to implement. edit: For instance, Facebook says each user is worth about $0.73 / user / month. [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-are-you-worth-to-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-...
  - goatlover 10y ago
    $1 for a billion+ users? Long as it costs them less, should add up to nice sum per month.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    Individually its not worth much. But the collection from everyone is worth a lot.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    North americans are worth over 4 dollars a month according to that.
    - trendia 10y ago
      4 dollars per 3 months: > If you happen to live in Europe, including the UK, you’re only worth one-third of a North American to Facebook, at $4.50 every three months, while the “rest of the world”, which includes most developing nations are only worth $1.22 per user. That's about $1.50 / user / month... which is higher than I thought. brb, going to start social network
      - serge2k 10y ago
        > You may be surprised to hear that a US or Canadian user is worth $13.54 each quarter to Facebook, 4 dollars a month.
serge2k 10y ago
You bought a phone with an OS developed by (and using services provided by) an Ad company. What did you expect.
WallowingB_36 10y ago
While an official statement would be nice, I suspect at least one reason is right in the article: "Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when he walked into a McDonald's and was prompted on his phone to download the fast food restaurant's app." Google makes most of its money selling your attention to marketers. This could easily be used to tailor ads. Within 100 yards of Barnes and Noble? "Ding! Get 10% off your purchase when you present this QR code!"
- redblacktree 10y ago
  Not sure why, but your second-ever comment (not this one) is dead. You may be shadowbanned -- fyi. Both of your comments seemed reasonable to me.
rodgerd 10y ago
So my workplace was looking at ESBs and suddenly all the sites I visited had ads for MuleSoft and WSO2. Over the last week or two any browser in my home not using an ad-blocker sees heaps of MuleSoft ads. Almost as though the ad network has noticed that my phone at work travels to my house and has created a linkage between the two.
- shostack 10y ago
  This is probably less savvy than that. If you login to various apps across devices, particularly a Google account, they are linked by a GUID. This can then be used for retargeting purposes as the advertiser wants to target the person and usually not just the particular device/cookie.
  - rodgerd 10y ago
    To clarify: the ads migrated from being served to my work PC (where I never log into a personal Google account), to my phone (on the same network), to my home PCs (including other people who aren't using my personal Google account).

taspeotis 10y ago

> Needless to say, this is not making some users very happy. Security researcher Mustafa Al-Bassam reported on Twitter that he "almost had a heart attack" when he walked into a McDonald's and was prompted on his phone to download the fast food restaurant's app. Apple has iBeacons which can do this, sans GPS. I wonder if this user would be just as upset the prompt wasn't initiated from GPS location tracking? Personally I think they are cool tech in theory but in practice kind of creepy.

xg15 10y ago
Considering iBeacons can be used for even more precise tracking (though restricted to areas where beacons are around) I very much hope they would.
jfktrey 10y ago
Really, the only reason it's creepy is because it actualizes the difference between what a user thinks the location services know, and what they actually know. Your phone pretty much always knows roughly where you are, it usually just doesn't brag about it.
- xg15 10y ago
  At least from a technical standpoint, yes, my phone knows - but it's not necessary that any google apps know or that the information is sent back to any kind of server.
- ethbro 10y ago
  Doesn't brag about it is a bit mild of a way of putting it. I'd phrase it more as "specifically chooses not to educate users that capability is present because everyone in the industry knows it would scare the hell out of normal users."
  - xg15 10y ago
    Well, it can be quite entertaining to show the Google Location History page to people who never heard of it before...

fowlerpower 10y ago

Don't be evil. Well that's been thrown out the window...

topbanana 10y ago
Come on - evil? It's not like they're selling your location history to kidnapping gangs. It's just advertising - it helps keep the economy churning.
- stonogo 10y ago
  Yes, evil. It also keeps some folks' stomachs churning. There is a certain segment of society who knows exactly what's being done with this massive surveillance network. That segment generally does not contain the people who are under surveillance. The fact that Google knows it has to be coy about it knows that it's unsavory. And exactly what assurances do we have that Google is properly vetting access to this information, given their complete lack of customer service and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business?
  - jptman 10y ago
    > And exactly what assurances do we have that Google is properly vetting access to this information, given their complete lack of customer service and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business? reply You could probably ask the thousands of ex-employees who'd love to make $$ by breaking the story to the media. Don't you think it would sell? Also, often when I hear stories about that company not providing support, it's for a service that has at the very least hundreds of thousands of clients/users, a lot of whom pay very little or nothing. How would you provide support to all of them? Would someone who spends $1Mil / yr on Ads have trouble reaching someone quickly?
  - mastazi 10y ago
    > There is a certain segment of society who knows exactly what's being done with this massive surveillance network. That segment generally does not contain the people who are under surveillance. Can you elaborate? Not criticising, genuinely interested. Given that "people who are under surveillance" are generally aware of the revelations made to the press by Snowden and others, I suppose you mean something else, hence my curiosity. > and their historical inability to properly run adsense, their core business From a business perspective their ad network is hugely successful, what do you mean by saying "inability to properly run"? Or perhaps you refer to the lack of privacy options offered to the public?

Psilidae 10y ago

It's weird that the writer is suggesting it's mysterious why Google Play would even need access to GPS, when at least one reason is obvious from the example in the article itself: to prompt people to download certain apps when they enter various locations.

lern_too_spel 10y ago
There is no way to tell the Google Play Store where your stores are in the developer console. This is just a beacon, and the security researcher confused Google Play Services with Google Play Store.

totalZero 10y ago

I wonder if there's a more sinister reason for this than simply, "we want more data for ads." It always freaks me out that Google asks me to review places where I eat, drink, and hang out.

imglorp 10y ago
http://www.infowars.com/googles-deep-cia-and-nsa-connections/ http://www.infowars.com/googles-deep-cia-and-nsa-connections...
- api 10y ago
  There are more credible sources on this kind of thing. It would be better to link to one of those instead of to Alex Jones' fear porn for profit rag. If anything, sites like his help bury information like this by associating it with crackpot trash.
  - imglorp 10y ago
    True, that's a crappy source. But the pentagon/google and in-q-tel/FB connections are well established.
tomc1985 10y ago
Now, I'm treated to piece of "help thousands with your photo!" bullshit every time I take a picture. Fuck you google
darren_ 10y ago
The sinister reason for this is that Google wants better data about places (so the service is more useful, so more people use it, so more ads are served, and so on).

mtgx 10y ago

Relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackberry/comments/3s26ym/priv_owners_a_request/ https://www.reddit.com/r/blackberry/comments/3s26ym/priv_own... Google Play Services probably does it so that all Android in-app ads can use the location as well through it. I doubt this is very legal in the EU, as the user hasn't given "explicit consent" for this. It might be worth mentioning it to @vestager on Twitter, who's already been lining up official antitrust charges against Google.

shostack 10y ago
So that is basically an end run around blocking location services on an individual app basis?
- tacomonstrous 10y ago
  No, apps need the location permission to use Play location services.

duncan_bayne 10y ago

When people ask me why I want my next phone to be an Ubuntu device, I point them at articles like these.

justinclift 10y ago
If you're thinking Canonical wouldn't sell its users down the river, there's a bridge for sale in Brooklyn you might like...
- mastazi 10y ago
  Unfortunately you are right. "GNU/Linux inside" is not sufficient to guarantee your privacy (not to mention that Android is Linux-based too): what we would really need is a community-developed mobile OS.
  - abawany 10y ago
    Hopefully eventually this will become more prevalent https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile . Also, I will say that some of the AOSP-based distros, such as Cyanogenmod, run just fine without Google Play installed; you get most of the (open-source) apps from F-Droid or if you need something from the Play store, sideloading or downloading from APKPure is a possibility.
    - mastazi 10y ago
      Thanks, as an Android user I should probably go for Cyanogenmod. I have used it in the past and I liked it.
- awqrre 10y ago
  Canonical have already done a few questionable things with Ubuntu (when thinking about privacy) but I think that they are still the best OS from a usability and privacy standpoint...
  - 10y ago

mark_l_watson 10y ago

Is this a big deal? I almost always turn GPS off anyway. I turn GPS on when I am travelling, and very occasionally for a minute if I use Google Map. GPS runs the battery down. Is GPS something most users leave turned on? I thought the article would be about tracking via wifi use, which they probably do.

kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
GPS is always on. "Off" is just slower updates to conserve power.
overcast 10y ago
GPS is nice to add exif info to photos. Also, who wants to turn GPS on and off, every time you're using maps?
- recursive 10y ago
  Me. It's like two clicks. It used to be one when I kept a widget for that purpose on my home screen. I also turn off bluetooth and wifi if I'm not using them.
  - overcast 10y ago
    You know what happens when you force a user to do an extra two clicks to accomplish something that should take one? They don't do it.
    - recursive 10y ago
      Yes. I'm not sure how that's relevant. I'm not just "some user". I'm actually me, and I know what my actual behavior actually is. I'm just describing what I actually do, not prescribing what someone should do.
- marak830 10y ago
  I do. I thought everyone did.

hyperpallium 10y ago

Wifi gives pretty good location data, and most Mcdonalds provide wifi. By default, Android 5 lollipop constantly scans wifi (draining battery), and the toggle-off is hidden in some menus.

hammock 10y ago
If it's Wifi, all McDonald's has to do is buy targeted ads against web traffic coming from the IPs of its Wifi routers.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

whocomments 10y ago

"almost had a heart attack" Did he figure out if it the Google location tracking or the McDonald's food? :)

ChuckMcM 10y ago

I expect the location requirement is coming to Google from the media companies. As lots of media is licensed for a particular market, and there are a number of easy VPN solutions that can disguise your IP (and your nominal location) the only way to be "sure" of where you are is to ask the GPS unit. This allows Google Play to do "region coding" and for apps to call a standard API to enforce their own region coding requirements (say netflix or other streaming services).

cachvico 10y ago

Seems to be Android's answer to iOS lock-screen app suggestions (since iOS 8; 2014) - https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/03/apple-delivers-location-based-app-suggestions-on-your-lock-screen-in-ios-8/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/06/03/apple-delivers-location-ba... ?

angryasian 10y ago

I don't see what the issue is. Google knows your location, your phone provider knows your location without asking, and probably many other apps that you've given location access to knows where your location is. They can use information like GPS, ip address and cell towers. So I don't know why this clickbait article is just pointing out these two google apps.

lisper 10y ago
> I don't see what the issue is. Seriously? > Google knows your location, Yes, that's the issue: you can no longer deny Google the ability to know your location as long as either Maps or Play is installed. > your phone provider knows your location without asking First, Google is not my phone provider, and second, my provider only has access to cell tower info, not GPS info. GPS info is much more precise than tower info, and it's obviously not possible to deny cell tower info to the provider. > and probably many other apps that you've given location access to knows where your location is. The key phrase there being "that you have given access to". You cannot turn off access to Maps and Play and more. That's the problem.

darren_ 10y ago

FTA: "The same is true of Google Maps. Although it makes far more sense for Maps to have access to your location, the latest build doesn't give you the option of turning it off. To do that, you have to turn off GPS on your phone altogether." You can, of course, switch off location for google maps on android, and I'm surprised this article wasn't fact-checked for that. Settings->Apps->Maps->Permissions. Same as any other app. I'm assuming the confusion is because the 'location settings' option in maps settings takes you to the phone's global location settings screen, which does only offer a global toggle. I don't think there's anything nefarious there, it's just that the settings menu isn't terribly well thought out. disclaimer: googler on maps, but not android maps edit: The article has been updated and now reads: "Although it makes far more sense for Maps to have access to your location, the latest build doesn't give you a decent option of turning it off. If you do cut off Maps' access to your location, "basic features of your device may no longer function as intended," the operating system warns." Not that they've bothered to update the rest of the article.

trendia 10y ago
I wonder if disabling "Location services" in Android fully disables it. There is a definite conflict of interest with Google, since they both write the operating system and rely on location data.
- brbsix 10y ago
  To me, the concerning bit of software is not the operating system (which is open source and fairly transparent) but rather Google Play Services, which is a proprietary background service that has nearly complete access to your device. Unfortunately so many applications make use of it that it's hard to ditch. There are open source efforts to replace it [0] but AFAIK nothing ready for consumers. [0]: http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-microg-gmscore-floss-play-services-t3217616 http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-micro...
ryukafalz 10y ago
This is what kinda bugs me about Android permissions - they're very binary. Either an app has location permissions or it doesn't. Personally, I would love to be able to say "Google Maps has access to location info while it's in the foreground, but not while in the background." For that matter, it'd be nice if I could stop certain apps from running in the background at all. A task killer isn't the answer here - a few seconds is enough to gather some data and transmit it, and at that point the damage is done.

Animats 10y ago

You can use Android phones without a Google account or Google Play. But, as an act of revenge, Google broke voice dialing for people who do that.

Vera527 10y ago

It's time to switch to Apple.

taormina 10y ago
Apple does this too. They just bury it 4 or 5 system levels deep before you can see that they track you everywhere and recognize your home, work, and other frequently visited locations.
- favorited 10y ago
  On iOS, location tracking is configurable per-app, at least. I can deny the Weather app the use of my location data while allowing the Camera app to access it.
- okket 10y ago
  > Apple does this too. Do you have any proof that Apple uses this information for advertising purposes? Their privacy statements say otherwise. This would be a huge deal.
  - taormina 10y ago
    I have no proof that it is being used for advertising, but they do still have a copy of everything. Who's to know what their future thoughts about advertising will be. It's their Frequent Locations feature.

Vera527 10y ago

It's time to switch to an iStone,I mean iPhone.

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

Use Cyanogenmod sans Google, or Replicant. Use OpenStreetMap apps like osmand for navigation.

jasonkostempski 10y ago
I've been trying to whittle down my Nexus to F-Droid only apps because I want to eventually get on a ROM without Google. I'm stuck on the native phone and messenger apps because I'm on Project Fi and the way they run that stuff is odd but I know there are good replacements for those once I get off that. The one app I can't get seem to give up willingly is Maps and it's all because of search. OsmAnd does navigation just fine for me, but finding the place I want to go is really, really difficult. In a pinch, I don't want to be stuck doing web searches to find addresses and then figure out how to turn them into coordinates. I've got AddressToGPS which is ok but it doesn't always find what I'm looking for and there's no ability to search near my current location that I can find, which is a key feature. Is there a better solution?

guelo 10y ago

It seems like Google is trying to slowly boil the frog of location based ads. It started with Map Places reviews, which doesn't feel like an ad but it's annoying. I haven't seen anything like the McDonalds ad but that would infuriate me. At least I can disable permissions on the Play app.

relics443 10y ago

I'm willing to bet that they're using the Nearby and Geofence APIs (or even the Awareness API) for this, as opposed to keeping GPS running all the time.

lern_too_spel 10y ago

Google Play Services provides Google's aGPS abstraction. Whenever an app asks for location data and doesn't want to use much battery, it asks Google Play Services, which will return coarse location data, cached location data, or GPS data as requested by the app. McDonald's uses a beacon protocol to suggest downloading an app without using location data. This security researcher just doesn't understand anything about his phone.

tdkl 10y ago

I see the location icon every time I launch the Google Play Store app and sometimes when unlocking the phone for reasons unknown. Nearby is disabled (which still leaves the Nearby Google Play Services (GPS) service running sometimes). Google Play Services are a trojan horse and a mobile device battery murderer. It takes away the power over your device. Have issues with it? Tough luck, if you'll downgrade, it'll be updated back automatically. I want Android before 2012 back and not this proprietary fuckup.

leephillips 10y ago

A bit off topic, but I also almost had a heart attack recently when I got a notification identifying a product that I had recently taken a picture of. I have Google Goggles installed (it does this), but I had taken this picture with the normal camera app. A recent update sends all the user's pictures to the Goggles service. That means that any picture you take with the phone is sent to Google's servers for analysis, unless you know it's happening and figure out how to turn it off. (I was also impressed, as this was an obscure product: a bottle of fermented rice drink from Korea.)

HNSucksAss 10y ago
Which is why "just use Google apps for everything" is not a legitimate workaround to the lack of a comprehensive syncing solution on Android.

taormina 10y ago

I feel like this is the same thing that Samsung does with Bluetooth. Whenever you disable it, they make sure that the low-power Bluetooth stays on. "Otherwise, how would our beacons and geofences work on the customers who explicitly don't want it?" At least Google can claim that they are collecting location on behalf of the rest of the Android apps on your phone.

helthanatos 10y ago

Well, I personally have my GPS off most of the time. That doesn't prevent mobile or WiFi location snooping, but it doesn't eat as much battery as it would if it was left on. Google Play Services are a terrible waste of battery. It's sad there are no options to opt out (provided by Google). Most people don't know/care about opt outs normally, anyway, so it wouldn't be a great loss of revenue to provide such an option.

novaleaf 10y ago

i bought an android 6.0 device a couple days ago. (Moto G4) On android 6 you can enable/disable individual permissions on each app, however Google Play already had location disabled.

okket 10y ago

What do you expect from an OS developed by a company that only makes money by selling ads?

EJTH 10y ago
Thats not true! They also make lots of money dumping our private data and transactions into XKEYSCORE

Grue3 10y ago

So, this is what murders my phone's battery? I thought it was weird that GPS icon has been always active recently, and that my battery juice tends to start rapidly dropping sometimes without any reason. Now the only way I can use my phone without constantly charging is turning GPS off completely.

babebridou 10y ago
It's really strange to me. I noticed yesterday that the Play app started leaking battery like crazy on my Nexus 5. 100%-0% within 10 hours of idle, 33% due to Google Play Store. Today, 6 hours since the full charge I'm looking again at the battery screen: 38% battery left. 16% Chrome (Background CPU: 1min 24s, Foreground CPU: 16s, GSM: 2h36min 58s) 16% Google Play Store (Total CPU: 10s, GPS: 6h 20min 6s, GSM: 1min28s) 6% Screen 4% Android system Chrome is most surprising, as it's not usually there. I did a single web search three hours ago though. The phone is idle all day otherwise. There's something rotten in the mobile software industry that's literally making our pockets warm for no good reason. Dear Google, please at least be a good citizen in your own ecosystem.

MatthewWilkes 10y ago

The McDonalds prompting sounds more like a use of the Nearby Notifications API in Play Services ( https://developers.google.com/nearby/notifications/overview https://developers.google.com/nearby/notifications/overview ) than simply due to location monitoring. I can't say for sure, though.

jwatte 10y ago

My guess: GPS tells you what country and city you are in, so licensed Google play content can be restricted by geography. All hail our overlords the content restriction owners!