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A scammer stole $500 from me and in the end begged me not to tell his parents
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- x0de 10y agoBadass
- greenshackle 10y agoI don't do these sort of trades but if I did I'd try: Buyer sends 1/4 of the BTC Sellers sends 1st card Buyer sends 1/2 of the BTC Seller sends 2nd card Buyer sends 1/4 of BTC That way the risk is shared, and both parties stand to lose at most 1/4 of the value (if seller defects after receiving the first payment, or buyer defects and fails to make the last payment).
- dragontamer 10y agoOr use an escrow service / middleman that people trust. Bitcoin transfers aren't the problem here. Its transferring money to a trusted 3rd party, and then that 3rd party transferring the money forward (or back) once the items are confirmed to be transferred. The problem then becomes dispute resolution. Even priority mail can be faked. Close the envelope with fake cards or whatever... so no matter what, dispute resolution becomes the limiting factor. But a trusted middleman using a protocol that is hard to fake with harsh penalties on the scammers that do break the protocol is the answer.
- JumpCrisscross 10y agoWhich are the best ones?
- DonHopkins 10y agoThis one looks totally legit: http://cardingmafia.ws/f60/ http://cardingmafia.ws/f60/ "Forum: Carding Mafia Escrow Service: Do you need to buy in safe way And Not To Get Ripped From some kid ? Come here and use CM Escrow Service Its Free.. Warning Not allowed To reply in threads .. who allowed to reply in thread just seller and buyer and escrow man anyone else will got banned for 7 days" Pulsating banner ads: $0.00 PHPNuke discussion board: $0.00 Blinking animated emoticons: $0.00 Mafia run escrow service: $0.00 Knowing the little bastard will end up with a decapitated horse head in his bed if he doesn't pay up: priceless.
- raverbashing 10y agoToo bad escrow service in eBay means pretty much "you're getting scammed"
- greenshackle 10y agoBy 'these sorts of trades' I meant 'trades with strangers without a trusted third party'. Of course a trusted third party obviates the need for complicated schemes.
- dbg31415 10y agoNoterized letter of intent works too for domestic sales. Not anonymous but keeps people honest, and gives you option of small claims court.
- rspeer 10y agoI think that even an honest unemployed 22-year-old would not be willing and able to find a notary as part of the deal. When I was 18 and needed to get a letter notarized, it cost me $35.
- mattkrause 10y agoYou (or, at 18, your parents) probably have one or two friends who are notaries. Most banks have some on staff and they're usually willing to notarize other, non-bank-related stuff for account-holders too.
- tamana 10y agoNot everyone is solid/upper middle class...
- mattkrause 10y agoI meant those as helpful suggestions but...ummm...thanks for the reminder. Also, you'd be surprised who is a notary. It's not all high-end finance people. I know one who works as a receptionist at a car dealership.
- astrange 10y agoYou can just search for them on Yelp.
- mkopinsky 10y agoEarlier this year I needed to get something notarized. Went to the UPS store 3 blocks from my work, paid $5 per signature (=$10), walked out 5 minutes later. It's a hassle, but for a $500 transaction it really isn't such a big deal.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- chillacy 10y agoThe buyer assumed ebay feedback was good enough, but even veteran ebay buyers with good feedback will try to scam sellers by transacting outside of the site to save the transaction fees... and of course that's how you get scammed. The transaction fees are partially insurance for these things: if you buy and get scammed, ebay will eat the cost of it, much like credit card companies do in cases of fraud.
- withdavidli 10y ago> if you buy and get scammed, ebay will eat the cost of it, much like credit card companies do in cases of fraud. This is not true unless things have changed in the last few years. eBay will try to get the money back by flagging the fraudster's account. But if that account has been emptied there's nothing they can do and eBay does not refund your money from their pocket. For the credit card comment. I don't think this is true either since I worked in retail before (family owned). Credit card companies are really quick to credit the account in case of fraud (I deal with this with my own CC every year). Thinking through this it makes sense since it doesn't come from the CC's pockets, they freeze assets in the merchant's account and forcefully refund the money from merchant's account if it was determined to be a fraudulent charge (in some cases merchant still pays the transaction fee for the CC charge).
- DrScump 10y agoThe eBay workflow in a fraud case is this: 1) if the money can be regained from the seller in any way (e.g. charging the card they use for the seller account or pulling back the Paypal proceeds from account balance or bank account(s)), they will do so and refund the buyer. 2) if not, they will throw up every possible barrier to the buyer, including (I have experienced) giving you phony tracking data to "prove" you got the item, etc. I've never been refunded from eBay/Paypal no matter how obvious the fraud -- I've always had to do credit card chargebacks. Never, ever fund a Paypal payment with anything but a credit card unless it's for something you can't possibly need refunded ever.
- sireat 10y ago
- megablast 10y ago> I think he won't be scamming anyone for a while Yeah, maybe. You can never really tell. He got away with this one really, by just returning the cards. It might convince him he was the skills to keep going. I would have told his mum.
- mhluongo 10y agoIt's the fact that the author paid in bitcoin that made this work. Most other online payment methods can be easily reversed with evidence of fraud. We deal with this sort of stuff all the time running cardforcoin.com. Social evidence is a great fraud deterrent. Edit: My mistake, I reversed the payment direction. All the author needed to do was call Apple to have the cards cleared and replaced.
- reefoctopus 10y agoPayPal is just as bad in my experience. I was sent pirated software. They ruled against me and let the scammer keep the money.
- shkkmo 10y agoWho did the author pay in bitcoin? The author received bitcoin from the scammer only after threatening to out the scammer to his parents. Your half-assed attempt at self-promotion is not contributing to HN
- mhluongo 10y agoMy mistake, I reversed the payment direction. I'm obviously a scum-of-the-earth shill and not someone who's deeply interested in the space commenting lazily. Go through my profile and tell me I'm not a contributor.
- tempestn 10y agoRegardless, bitcoin had nothing to do with it. It's the fact that he sent the item before being payed that allowed him to be scammed. Method of payment was irrelevant. I have to agree with the parent that this seems like self promotion without bothering to more than skim the article.
- mhluongo 10y agoI've copped to making a mistake, and reread the article for good measure. What else do you propose I do to make you happy? We use paid acquisition to promote the site, and an HN comment certainly won't make a difference to our monthly numbers- I brought it up because I thought it was relevant, and don't think I need to apologize any further for that. > Method of payment was irrelevant. As someone who does trades like this all the time- of course the way the exchange went down is relevant. In fact,the most salient thing when exchanging digital goods wrt fraud is the difference in settlement time between the two. In this case, since the author sent Apple gift cards, he could've just called Apple, said he was scammed, and had the cards zeroed and replaced by the merchant.
- hoodoof 10y agoTell his parents is precisely what you should do. That's what would lead to possible behavior change. Letting him get away with it validates the behavior and teaches that it's OK and he will be able to talk his way out of such things again. It does everyone a disservice to not tell his parents. The author got manipulated twice. First convinced to hand over his money and then convinced not to tell the parents. The scammer player the author like a guitar. Right there is the psychopath's first big lesson - "people listen when I cry". The genius of the scammer/budding psychopath being that the blogger thinks he "won".
- somedangedname 10y agoPlus he's been educated about the dangers of scamming from interlinked accounts. If he does try this again it won't be as easy for the next victim to get their stuff back.
- vacri 10y agoTelling the brother seems to have done the same function as telling the parents, since that's the point at which the behaviour changed.
- hoodoof 10y agoThe scammer said it is his parents that he does not want to be told, so that's precisely where his care factor is.
- 10y ago
- lisper 10y ago> As I prepared the cards to ship them to him I sent him photos I uploaded via my open source image hosting service: PictShare. This fact is very important later on. I think I must have missed something. I read the whole story and I still don't see why the photos of the cards mattered.
- driverdan 10y agoAs a seller never ever send something first before payment. Never send samples and never accept partial payment. Scammers know all the tricks and have the upper hand.
- gertef 10y agoEssentially, author believes it's more important to help the scammer recover than to help the other victims get their stolen money back.
- yuja_wang 10y agoExactly! That's why he should have gone to the Police.
- joecool1029 10y agoYou should report to his family and his details should be publicized should their response not be sufficient. Even then it's likely he won't stop. Only take back what he stole as anything else is likely stolen goods. The point here is to provide assistance for any other victims in locating who scammed them as well as making the scammer painfully aware of the damage he will cause himself by continuing with this behavior. Why am I deprioritizing police? Police really don't handle this sort of thing well. They'll likely consider it a civil matter or just won't make the stretch to pursue. It doesn't help the victim is not in the US (lower that priority some more) Sure you can log the complaint, but unless he's brazen and lots come forward about him, they likely will not bring charges. (go read up on bitscotty scamming bitcoin-otc'ers, he did it for years even after being doxxed and reported to police) I'm not saying not to report though. Make sure his details are accessible so others can follow your report. If you want another fast track, he said he's in college so report to their administration. Without rights or due process in the way they'll probably sanction his ass immediately. Did he scam from the school's network? If so it is now a school issue and they don't like looking bad. :)
- mikkom 10y agoYou should note that he's from austria (based on his domain name), I would assume it would be quite a feat to go to visit US police from Austria and not worth his $500.
- fataliss 10y agoI find like 22 is already fairly old to do something stupid like that and call it a day with a "sorry". You are fully responsible legally and you should know better. I agree that going all out to make sure that person gets the worst punishment possible for it would be over the top. But I'd definitely at least tell the parents.
- tempestn 10y agoRegarding the final point, if you're using BTC already, there are some alternatives to a classical escrow service: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13841/how-do-i-use-multisig-transactions-to-handle-escrow-needs http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13841/how-do-i-us...
- wott 10y agoI don't believe his 'sorry' message for a second. Way too dramatical. Or I could be wrong and the brother is the city thug #1 :-)
- diegorbaquero 10y agoDoxing at its finest. I've had to do this too. For this type of cards, you can use sythe.org and an official middle man (escrow), most likely free :) (Hit me up if you need one, I have over 1200 feedbacks -> Nick: The Black Tux)
- xupybd 10y agoReading this was as satisfying as watching taken.
- mtriano 10y agoSo he had no money, but he had an apple card for $477 and your $250 card with the balance? Sounds like evidence that he's scammed other people with this scam. Sounds like there are already other victims out there, sans justice.
- ryhamz 10y agoThe author has 2 x $250, so $500 total. The scammer had spent $23.
- mtriano 10y agoYes, but the story said the scammer wanted to repay Haschek with 1 card worth $477 (note that $477 is greater than $250, this will be important in the next sentence) and another card worth the difference. You can't add money to an Apple gift card after the initialization of the card. Therefore, the $477 card wasn't one of the 2 cards that the scammer scammed from Haschek. It was separate, and evidence of another crime. Hence my post.
- tzakrajs 10y agoAnd accepting it as payment would make him complicit in harboring stolen property.
- criddell 10y agoYou know, I'd be surprised if this is his first scam. I hope it is, but I probably would still tell his parents because apparently they still have a lot of influence. They guy is 22 but he's acting like he's 14. Time to grow up and start seeing consequences for bad decisions.
- jscardella 10y agoVery good explanation of good opsec by you and bad opsec by the target!
- ajeet_dhaliwal 10y agoGreat detective work, well done! Like some others say I would have told the parents too. I've met scammers and some of these people will say anything to get away but then be scamming someone else the next day with a new account.
- caub 10y agoI think he will do it again soon
- disillusioned 10y agoWe had someone scam us on eBay for a laptop YEARS ago (like, 15 years ago) before they had the full buyer protections they have now. There wasn't really any recourse, but he had used his real phone number on his account. Or, I should say, his mother's real phone number, since he lived at home. We ended up calling, and reaching her, and when we told her what had happened she lost her shit, forced him to refund the order and, I presume, ensured that never happened again.
- brianwawok 10y agoPeople still get EBay scammed for laptops today. Buy laptop. You ship it. They claim it doesn't work. EBay forces a refund when they ship it back. They ship back a brick. You are out a laptop.
- triplesec 10y agoThat's why I video the wrap, send and receive parts on valuable ebay sales
- maxxxxx 10y agoI have dealt with chronic liars before and I believe his apology is a scam too. He just wants you to go away so he can get back to business. He should be reported to police.
- tzakrajs 10y agoWe should give this 22 year old man the respect he deserves by holding him accountable for his actions.
- balabaster 10y agoThat. Was. Poetic. You sir, are legend.
- noonespecial 10y agoI'm a cynic, I know, but the I'm sorry sounds like a prepared cut and paste for when it goes bad. He had other Apple giftcards in large amounts laying around that he could use to appease the author??? This is a well worn machine.
- nerdponx 10y agoEh? He got paid in bitcoin at the end I thought
- smellf 10y ago"I'm broke and don't have the BTC otherwise I would have given it to you already, here's an Apple gift card for $477 and the remainder is still on this other card here." -- something like what the scammer said.
- sealjam 10y agoThe author after that quote: "He wanted to give my my cards back but I tried for years to get rid of them so I say he can sell them and give me the BTC. Which he did and our deal was finally forfilled."
- Shanea93 10y agoI wonder if the bitcoins he sent to the author in return for the cards were actually scammed from another unwitting party?
- ohstopitu 10y agoA while back I was trying to buy a macbook online and while searching for cheap macbooks, I went down the rabbit hole that is Alibaba (here's an example of what I was talking about[1]). The seller claimed to be based in USA, had warehouses in Brazil and demanded that I pay via Western Union. After confirming all the details (via email). I decided to give it a shot. After sending him about $250 CAD (of the $500) he sent me a shipping code which had a description of a GTX 970. After complaining to him about it, he claimed that there was some mistake and his wearhouse in London would have it fixed and sent me another tracking number. After a day of shipping, he emailed me claiming that he had a talk with the shipping company and they had decided to keep the laptop in escrow till I paid the entire amount (and sent him the confirmation numbers). At this point, I realized I was getting duped (if it's too good to be true, it's generally false), and canceled my payment. A year later, both those shipping numbers still work and claim that the items are on the way. I did try to follow up on his "company" and the shipping company, but there had been some serious work put into it (they had good SEO, support accounts, forums etc - all of which were fake btw). I wanted to contact the local authorities, but in all honesty, no action would be taken - the scammer was located in a different country and I had nothing but an email and a name to go ahead on. The reason I felt bad after this was not because I got scammed, but because "I" got scammed. (I was always proud that I could not get duped or fall into such scams but I had) [1] - https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Price-For-Aple-Macbook-PRO-MGXC2_101461408.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.qOOfm3 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Price-For-Aple-Macboo...
- elmigranto 10y agoI mean, at your link they are "selling" top of the line MacBooks for $200 a piece; that's kind of asking for it.
- puddintane 10y agoI noticed they intentionally remove a "p" from Apple to avoid getting Apple after them. I wonder if it would be smart to report these listings to Apple directly since they have a far better bankroll to tackle those problems. Although I'm sure it is difficult even for Apple to address them.
- thedanzing 10y agoThis was an enjoyable read. I love when scammers get their comeuppance.
- ufmace 10y agoYeah, I'm not buying that apology for a second. Probably the first thing any con artist learns is how to fake being really sorry as well as they faked being legitimate anytime somebody manages to turn the tables on them. I bet you can get your money back and then report him to the police too. He's way beyond being corrected by his parents, and he probably threw that in just to make you think there's an option besides the police, assuming that you're too nice to put him in jail, where he belongs. Maybe some jail time will lead him to reevaluate his choices. Or at least keep him from stealing from anybody else for a little while.
- Artoemius 10y agoI agree. Begging is a skill, and this scammer is already a professional in that respect. If he was 16 or 17, it probably wouldn't be too late to tell his parents, although that depends on the family. 22 is way too old for that. In addition, I think the author should at least release the details of the eBay account to the public to make them googleable in connection with the scam. Since it was the eBay account that convinced the author to go first, it can convince other people too.
- xan0v 10y agoScream 'doxx' if you want, but the right thing to do here would be to educate the public about this guy so the rest of us can steer clear. The rest is up to the wronged here.
- geek_at 10y agoI didn't write it in the blog but I sure as hell shouldhave looked up his account on reddit. Later found out that the very user he made the deal with me was banned from most trading subs.. my mistake, glad it worked out for me though :D
- homingbrain 10y ago> he probably threw that in just to make you think there's an option besides the police That's what I thought, too. For some reason, scammers often have high social intelligence. Maybe it's like with any other domain: if you understand how computers work, you are compelled to use computers a lot. If you understand how people work, you must be compelled to use people?
- ryandrake 10y agoAgree with the others: You were scammed twice. That "apology" was 100% fake and in no time he'll be back to scamming others who aren't that skilled at doxing. Seriously. What 22 year old grown adult is afraid about what mommy thinks? Totally unbelievable.
- nickodell 10y agoWhat was the point of using Bitcoin to avoid chargebacks if you sent the giftcard first?
- ebbv 10y agoYou are really naive if you buy his claims that he's never gonna do it again. You weren't his first victim and probably weren't even the first refund he gave.
- ommunist 10y agoLike you said - use escrow.
- bbcbasic 10y agoWow! Why not just spend the gift card at Apple? I only sell stuff face to face for the reasons mentioned here. eBay/PayPal is flakey as they side with the buyer and lost a couple of times there. I then lost as a buyer buying services using Paypal as they only help the buyer if it is a physical product. Fortunately in aggregate lost a lot less than this dude. Let alone sending stuff to some random address on the promise of some bitcoin.
- kbart 10y ago"Wow! Why not just spend the gift card at Apple?' The author has specifically mentioned that he's not in US and these gift cards are "USA only".
- dessant 10y agoSo much for blurring and redaction, the identity of the scammer is given away in the blog post.
- MattBearman 10y agoUnless it's been changed since you posted this, I can't see anything that would give away the scammer's identity.
- dessant 10y agoThe elance overview contained a unique description, but now it is blurred[0]. The original is still up on archive.org. [0] https://www.pictshare.net/ee61c0c5ba.jpg https://www.pictshare.net/ee61c0c5ba.jpg
- EasyTiger_ 10y agoSo he's been scamming over Steam too and for years. And author thinks he won't do this again, seriously? This is a way of life for him.
- tomelders 10y agoFool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? Well... a fool can't get fooled again.
- EasyTiger_ 10y agoSeriously can't remember what this originally was anymore
- MichaelBurge 10y agoI can tell you haven't been scammed before. I've been fobbed off with that same "I'm sorry" message before. They do it just to buy time, since you eventually lose interest in them. He's not sorry, and is just manipulating you into going away.
- isolli 10y agoWhy not sell the gift cards on eBay?
- kahrkunne 10y ago"someone scammed me, so I doxed and threatened him, then made him sell my cards for me" Impressive, tough guy.
- ryguytilidie 10y agoI too get upset when someone has the gall to do something about thieves...?
- EasyTiger_ 10y ago100% sure he will do this again. He's not some sort of teenage delinquent going through a phase, he's an adult and this is a police matter. The apologies and excuses are all well rehearsed.
- m4tthumphrey 10y agoI don't think you need 100% unique usernames across the web, just use a unique one on reddit!
- downandout 10y agoObviously what the kid did was illegal and morally wrong, and contacting his family was certainly effective. But I believe that contacting his family probably violated most state and federal debt collection laws. After all, essentially what happened is that he was late on a $380 debt payment. Imagine if you were a few days late on a credit card payment, and they started calling your relatives telling them that if they weren't paid, they would be going to the cops. That is very illegal, and in that scenario the credit card company could be sued for damages. These two scenarios have some legal equivalence - someone that is owed a debt contacts family and uses embarrassment as leverage to collect. There have been many cases where criminals have successfully sued their victims and this may be a good candidate. This blog post, which this kid's lawyer would paint as a public celebration of the damage done to his client's life, doesn't help matters. So what he did in this case was logical, and probably even cut the kid a break, but it probably exposed him to legal liability. He should have just gone to the cops and let it play out if that was his actual intention after not being paid.
- mikkom 10y ago> After all, essentially what happened is that he was late on a $500 debt payment. That is far too nice way to describe the issue and I would assume that even in US these are two separate issues (being late from mutually agreed payment and trying to scam someone)
- downandout 10y agoThe problem is that legally, unless and until the kid is found guilty of fraud or theft (or he pleads guilty to such a crime), the money owed is nothing more than a debt that this guy attempted to collect in illegal ways.
- andruby 10y agoThis is like trying to collect a debt and the other person wilfully denying there was ever a transaction. I doubt this is legally the same as being late on a debt. IANAL
- 10y ago
- poidog44 10y agolol, that was well worth the read.
- poidog44 10y agoThat was well worth the read
- apatters 10y agoWhat the scammer did is wrong, and the plight of the victim is easy to relate to here. It's easy to have a sense of personal outrage after reading this story. But let's keep a sense of proportion in mind: it is $500 worth of gift cards that the victim couldn't use and had been trying to get rid of for 4 years. I suspect that anyone trying to get free gift cards off of Reddit is pretty small-time. I think telling the parents and leaving it at that is probably the right thing to do. We should reserve our energy, outrage, and enforcement for the scammers who do the greatest damage. Scammers that have made millions, hired armies of lawyers, even made friends in power who have rewritten the law to favor them. The petty criminal deserves a petty punishment.
- tamana 10y ago$500 x how many victims?
- barking 10y agoThe guy is 22, telling mum and dad shouldn't come into it, he got off very lightly, it's the police he needs to talk to. I've met one or two he reminds me off and they have no shame. Doing a cry-baby act like he did at the end took nothing out of him. His true nature was revealed in his previous actions. Came across as a parasitical, POS to me.
- 35bge57dtjku 10y agoAnd the idiot gets scammed again. :|
- overcast 10y agoSounds a lot like a kid who attempted to scam me out of a GPU. He sent me a bogus Bitcoin transfer email from a well known escrow service. I stupidly did not check header information, as I was in a rush at the time, and shipped without confirming it. All was well, until he sends me a picture of the card, with essentially a HAHAHAHA, various derogatory remarks, name calling, you name it. I was calm, and collective, tried various bargaining options to recover it. His arrogance was overwhelming. He posts all over forums, showing how clever he was. This is where he made his fatal mistake. Investigation begins. I sift through tons, and tons of forum posts, all over the internet. Come up with a handful of names, and various aliases he uses. Was able to confirm that his current location, was around the area where the package was sent(to a home). Got in contact with the feds regarding online scams, no response. Got in contact with local police, they tell me nothing can be done, contact feds. Got in contact with the local news of where the package was shipped, who gets me in contact with the local police that they are friends with. Police contacts me, and I send over all my logs and information. Police make some visits to the destination address, and it turns out they are actually the friend of the kid. The kid finally breaks, and furiously emails me scared that the cops are coming for him, and he demands that I send him my return address so he can give me back the card. Apparently he threw out the box. He wants to know how I could do this to him, and that it was all just a big joke. I refuse, and ignore future pleas. I speak with the cops, who now have tracked down the kid, and they speak with him and his parents. They said I can press charges, which I did. His father emails me, and starts tearing into ME, questioning how I could possibly sell to a minor, without parents authorization. Over, and over, and over. I tell him this isn't my problem anymore, either the card is paid for, or I'll see them in court. A couple days go by, his mother emails me, apologizing profusely, we set up a Paypal transaction for far more than the card is worth(I initially listed it at an inflated value). Done. Speak with the cop, give the OK, case closed. Feds email me a month or two later, saying nothing they can do, contact local police. :)
- Paul_S 10y agoThis the correct way to deal with criminals - it's not your call to decide if they're a minor, a psychopath etc.. This way society can deal with criminals, hopefully his parents will make an effort now. Had you not done all this work we'd be guaranteed to have one more criminal to incarcerate in the future.
- Jemmeh 10y ago> Your privacy settings on facebook are only as good as your friends' This. I can reverse search anyone in seconds just by typing in any scrap of information I have about them into the Facebook search bar. 90% of the time there's a result. They might think they're careful with their own page, but most of them have a friend who isn't.
- thinsmuddmen 10y agoHey, buzzard, are you cloth-eared? Come on, look at hotchas here http://8bdsdg.skhit.in/ http://8bdsdg.skhit.in/
- stevenwiles 10y agoThis whole article is just a plug for the author's open source software business. Downvoted for being another shameless profit-grab from the front pages of HN. Embarrassing.
- triplesec 10y agowhy do you think this?