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Legendary Apple Engineer Gets Rejected for Genius Bar Job
- peter303 10y agoIve seen a older sales people in some Apple stores. A good sales manager knows customers relate to people their own age.
- WhitneyLand 10y agoI don't want that. I want sales people who are smart, know the products inside and out, and do not lie.
- AstralStorm 10y agoThe last point is at odds with actually selling you Chinese phones and laptops in a fancy case...
- pipio21 10y agoYou could be a great engineer but horrible in sales, or dealing with troubled customers like in this case. Just because companies have the ability to discriminate you, does not mean you can accuse them of age discrimination that is based on your prejudices, not on reality.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dogma1138 10y agoCould also be easily a case of being overly qualified of them not even taking the application seriously because if some one sent a CV that looks like his to any entry level tech support / sales support position they would most likely assume it's a gag. Overall hiring overqualified people is a problem, they might never be happy and they can easily undermine the structure of a company even unintentionally. This is like hiring some one like Wozniak to do entry level programming at a company hell undermine everyone from the team leader upto the CTO just for being who he is.
- azakai 10y agoAge discrimination and not hiring "overqualified" people are overlapping problems. Older people can often be described as overqualified. It's also unclear whether being overqualified is actually a problem, which you assumed as true. See for example https://hbr.org/2010/12/the-myth-of-the-overqualified-worker https://hbr.org/2010/12/the-myth-of-the-overqualified-worker > research shows that overqualified workers tend to perform better than other employees, and they don’t quit any sooner.
- dogma1138 10y agoAgain age discrimination is also something easily thrown out. And overqualification simply cannot be dismissed as you easily point out, the studies that have been conducted a are both contradictory and in your case completely misleading. Being "overqualified" by possessing an above average intelligence and being more highly educated than the average employee in a menial position such as retail or sanitation is one thing, being overly qualified in a technical field in a highly competitive market is another. Taking on a considerably more experience engineer than the average for an entry level job might end up good, but it also might not end up that well, you can see it a lot during the recession people needing work accepting lower paying jobs which they overqualify for and they leave as soon as they find a better place. so no "> research shows that overqualified workers tend to perform better than other employees, and they don’t quit any sooner." isn't universally true, it can be true for certain circumstances but this isn't even the level of overqualification we are talking about.
- AstralStorm 10y agoOverqualified should be read as "we want someone who works for peanuts". The fact of life is that older people do not like being taken advantage of.
- quantumhobbit 10y agoIf someone who is truly overqualified would disrupt your organization, maybe it needs to be disrupted. After all being overqualified would imply that their judgment is superior to the norm within your organization. If their judgment wasn't good then they aren't qualified much less overqualified.
- vegetablepotpie 10y agoOn face value this story seems ironic, but there’s a lot of questions in my mind. What is the skill set overlap between an Apple engineer and an Apple genius? Although Mr. Scheinberg’s experience may be useful in addressing technical issues, would a retired engineer be able to comfortably transition to a customer service role at Apple?
- revelation 10y agoThere is no required skill set for the Genius bar job, it's a very entry level support job. Apple releases zero of it's internal support documentation, so there pretty much can be no applicant with experience unless they previously worked in an Apple support position, which surely is a very low percentage of people they hire for these positions.
- microtherion 10y agoThere may be no required technical skill set, but you better bring some rather advanced people skills (Not really sales skills, nobody at an Apple store works on commission). From what I've seen, the job looks quite demanding in terms of customer interaction; I don't know JK Scheinberg to judge how he would do on this, but putting it all down to age discrimination seems to be jumping to conclusions a bit.
- Angostura 10y agoSo, how is he chatting with people who may know irritating little about their iPhones etc? What are his people skills like?
- steaminghacker 10y agoso, they didn't bother checking his cv?
- Hydraulix989 10y agoThis reminds me of the outrage when Uber kicked Sebastian Thrun off its platform when he worked as an Uber driver offering people rides in his Model S (founder of Google X, inventor of the modern "self-driving" car). I think all you have to do is say the legendary engineer is "over-qualified" for this position -- I mean, you can't jump to age-ist conclusions right away when Michael Jordan applies to play high school basketball.
- koolba 10y agoBesides the sanctity of old people as a reliable voting block, why is age discrimination a problem? If companies are stupid enough to not hire good candidates, or under pay the ones they do hire, then they'll lose out against the better companies that don't do those things. Plus, it's my understanding[1] that it's not discrimination to refuse to hire someone for being "too young" or "too inexperienced". How is that not discrimination if the bright eyed youngster is equally qualified? [1]: If there's someone with the appropriate legal background, please correct me if I'm wrong.
- paulrosenzweig 10y agoI think your argument that discriminatory companies will lose out to companies willing to hire more broadly is flawed for a few reasons: 1. Markets are not perfectly efficient. If Apple decided not to hire female engineers they wouldn't immediately be overtaken by another company that can use access to a larger labor pool as a decisive advantage. Even if this would be a disadvantage because other companies would hire women, they might still win due to other advantages. 2. Often the same prejudice that affects hiring is held by the customers. If a restaurant in a racist community refuses to hire minorty workers, they might do better than other restaurants. This makes it even more important to enforce fair hiring practices judicially.
- michaelt 10y agowhy is age discrimination a problem? I for one expect to become old at some point.
- koolba 10y ago> I for one expect to become old at some point. So what? You're scared people won't think you can keep up with those young whippersnappers so you need the government to step in? Those same rules would be the ones that held you back when you were younger because companies would be forced to hire, or not fire, incompetent old people. Or is this like a tiered system you feel you've paid your dues, having passed that stage of your life where you're classified as "young", and now want to reap the rewards the old people have been dangling in front of you?
- WhitneyLand 10y agoAs some one in their 40's I'm really hoping this situation will improve. One bad thing is there does not seem to be much social stigma against this kind of discrimination. You could engage in it, talk about it with friends, and probably not raise a eyebrow.
- imron 10y agoIf this is a worry, you might wish to consider starting your own business. Take control of your life rather than just let it happen to you.
- Noseshine 10y agoI did that. Then I fond out I'm terrible at business - because I don't want to sell anyone anything. I don't want to "network" to try to push products or services to people. Note that I'm pretty social, I have no problem at all with presenting (in fact I love it) and talking to people (quite the opposite). I just don't want to do it for the purpose of extracting payment and pushing products or services. I think your advice is good only for some very few people. You also forget that the vast majority of businesses fails. Would you give somebody investment advice in an investment product known to get you big losses? Because that's what this is, even aside from personal suitability. Not to mention this: What happened to specialization? one of THE keys of human success. But these days everybody is expected to savvy at business, finance, long-term planning (privately financed pensions), investment. I claim the world would be much better off if people were not being forced into things they are neither good at nor like doing. I think corporations or smaller options to work together in a group (firms, but also NGOs and other organizations) where a huge step forward. Now whenever somebody fears (and for good reasons) they might not find a place in an organization they are told that going it alone is the way to go. No it isn't. Those developments IMHO are a step backwards in human development. . The one thing I do like about seeing people try to start their own is because often they will become reasonable and good human beings. I've seen successful and smug high-level employees who think when people are not successful it's just their own fault for the most part. Then they try to start their own business, very confidently. When they were in an important place in the hierarchy of the corporation everybody wanted to talk to them! Evidently, they were important and popular human beings. Every single one of those guys came down to earth within the first three years of their business. I've had people that I already had almost given up on, talking to them became more and more painful, become very nice and reasonable people again. Going out on your own sure helps getting in touch with reality, so there's that. I know several people with the business finally going quite well now - but oh my god are they close to burnout. On the other hand, visiting them and talking to them now is fun again, they are back to seeing themselves as mere mortals.
- X-Istence 10y agoMy local Apple store has a bunch of older people working in the store. They are often just as knowledgeable as the younger kids running around, and have all kinds of cool stories to tell about how things "used to be done". I actually prefer to work with one of the older people when making my purchase because I don't feel nearly as rushed and it seems to me to be a lot more personal...
- canada_dry 10y agoMarketers have been falling over themselves to get a piece of the 14-24yo market. Um, hello... the biggest market with the most disposable income (and growing bigger every year) is in the >45 segment. Companies that don't refocus their efforts on this segment won't survive the next 5-10yrs IMHO.
- mooreds 10y agoTo play devil's advocate, the difference between these two groups is not just their disposable income, it is their buying habits. The habits of 14-24 year olds are far less set than those of the older generations. If you look at life time value, hooking a 14 year old on your brand (of soda, chips, shampoo, whatever) has high LTV, whereas a 45 year old will just plain buy less X. Of course it does depend on your market. I bet the luxury car market ignores the 14-24 year olds.
- canada_dry 10y agoSure, back when industries weren't on an endless cycle of cost cutting and when consumers (esp. 14-24yo) actually had an attention span, LTV was something marketers could rely on. Today the younger the consumer, the more fickle which equates to no loyalty and endless churn.
- aluminussoma 10y agoI have wanted to run an experiment of famous programmers or computer scientists applying to jobs at Google/Facebook/Etc (under an assumed identity) and seeing if they get rejected. My hypothesis is that there would be several notable rejections. Unfortunately, I do not not anyone well enough to conduct this experiment.
- WhitneyLand 10y agoSave your time - we already know reputation and pedigree sometimes get in the way of the best decisions being made. Srinivasa Ramanujan was dismissed as unqualified many times, as was Michael Faraday, and many others.
- asuffield 10y ago(Tedious disclaimer: my opinion only, not speaking for anybody else. I'm an SRE at Google.) We expect and accept a high false-negative rate. Our interview process is optimised for zero false-positives at the cost of many false-negatives. This is a deliberate choice. So yes, I would expect to see a significant rate of rejections of people who are clearly qualified. The sort of people that we want to hire are likely to come back for another try anyway, and the long-term effect of this process seems to be doing what it was supposed to.
- joosters 10y agoI've often heard this, and it seems a poor excuse for a terrible interview process/terrible hiring figures. Why do you not try to improve your interview process to lower the false-negative rate? Doing so in an intelligent way need not raise the false-positives rate (unless you somehow believe that the interview process is already perfected by Google...)
- evanws 10y agoThey definitely try their best to give every candidate as fair a shot as possible, but there's always going to be error. It becomes a question of what type of error hurts more, accidentally rejecting someone who's qualified or accepting someone who isn't. They reasonably believe the latter is significantly more dangerous.
- Mikeb85 10y agoSo? It's a sales job, not an engineering job.
- doodpants 10y agoThe Genius Bar is tech support, not sales.
- hoodoof 10y agoIt goes the other way too. The older I get, the less inclined I am to work for any company. I just no longer believe in really any corporate mission. I'm not inclined to work hard for anyone except me. Most companies seem to be doing things that are either uninteresting or trivial or silly. I was super ambitious and worked super hard for other people when I was younger and now why the heck should I do that for some other company?
- gozmike 10y agoFunny, the older I get, and the more businesses I become involved with - the more I realize that even the silliest, most trivial problem on the outside takes relentless execution and talent to make successful. With age, came the wisdom that I am best when supported by a team of people who take up the fight alongside me. The challenge then, becomes to inspire, reward and treat my collaborators with the respect and dignity that they deserve.
- hkmurakami 10y agoWhen I was younger, I felt very beholden to my bosses. I felt that they could ruin my life at their whim, by firing me, or writing a terrible recommendation for grad school. Fast forward a few years and I realize that I can "work for myself" even within a larger organization. Even within an org, the reason I am there can be for my own interests and learning. If they become misaligned, I'll leave.
- hoodoof 10y agoCall this an unfair generalization if you must, but old people are no good at everything. - Moe from "The Simpsons"
- Noseshine 10y agoThat is a straw man. You are arguing against if someone would have complained that "seniors" don't get every job. But the subject is discrimination, they get less jobs after 50.
- wtbob 10y agoWeird, the text is an inch wide. Given that the three inches of whitespace on either side of the text haven't changed width, I guess we know which part of their site Business Insider think is most important.
- Mithaldu 10y agoDo american interviewers actually say, entirely unqualified, "we'll be in touch", and then never actually send ANY follow-up?
- Pica_soO 10y agoDoes age discrimination even uphold for remote work?