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This is stupid. The hard part about a Math degree is the number of hours you have to put in. If you cannot go to university full time, go part time. If you cann

This is stupid. The hard part about a Math degree is the number of hours you have to put in. If you cannot go to university full time, go part time. If you cannot go part time, you don't have enough time to actually learn any of these topics on your own. I've done these classes. It's typically 150 hours per class and it's not something you do after coming exhausted home from work either. After those 150 hours you'll get a basic understanding of the topic. You won't be an expert by any means. That will require more exposure, more time. The lectures themselves are not that useful, I find. The lecturers are mostly useful in guiding you along, telling you which aspects of the theory to focus on and weeding through the study material to deliver you the best bits. The problem sets are indispensable. Exams make sure you actually know the basics in depth instead of just knowing about them. My advice: enrol part-time, take one class at a time, catch up on the lectures and do the problem sets and the homework over the weekend.

bpchaps 10y ago
Sometimes the issue isn't time - it's money and access to schooling. Just because you've had the access, doesn't mean others do - and there are many, many who don't.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  > Just because you've had the access, doesn't mean others do... I don't think that the author of the post you're responding to is making any sort of normative claim. > Sometimes the issue isn't time - it's money and access to schooling I think the author is suggesting that if you have that kind of free time, then you either a) must be independently wealthy, or else that b) trading some of that free time for cash you can use to buy credit hours is a net positive because the guidance is worth it (again, assuming your goal is to learn math as opposed to eg obtain a uni degree). I agree that's not necessarily a good assumption globally, but it's probably a decent assumption for almost everyone in the west, both in terms of self-learning capabilities and in terms of available funds.
  - clarry 10y ago
    I don't think it's a decent assumption for "almost everyone" in the west. I'd say it often is the case that you won't have enough free time for such studies unless you trade cash (income) for the free time. At which point you may not have much after paying the bills. Or you're unemployed and, well, don't have the cash. You suggest trading some of that free time for cash, as if unemployment were something people solve by snapping their fingers and choosing to make a trade. That sounds a bit insulting towards all the people (who are many) that struggle with unemployment in western countries.
    - throwaway729 10y ago
      > You suggest trading some of that free time for cash, as if unemployment were something people solve by snapping their fingers and choosing to make a trade Not at all; I meant in the form of a loan, where free time is time you would otherwise spend retired. And I was also assuming that you already have a decent job that allows you to work 40 hours or so and make a comfortable enough living to consider spending your free time learning math. Frankly, I can't possibly imagine trying to do something like learn advanced mathematics while also struggling with un- or under-employment. I grant that there are probably people far more motivated and resilient than I assume :-)
      - bpchaps 10y ago
        Such as Ramanujan. ;)
        throwaway729 10y ago
        Sure, there are outliers. My post explicitly deals with the common case only.
        bpchaps 10y ago
        Yes, but think about those in between the outliers. Troubled situations and many cases where loans aren't feasible or possible. I'll pass on a world where policy and education only deals with the common case.
Eerie 10y ago
>It's typically 150 hours per class and it's not something you do after coming exhausted home from work either. Assuming you can only invest, lets say, 5 hours on the weekend, it will be 30 weeks per class, summing up to ~1.5 classes per year year. I'd say that if someone can keep that up for 10 years, theirs understanding of math will be far above the average population...
svanderbleek 10y ago
I hope it is not stupid. I won't fit inside the university system at this point. They would make me take courses on subjects I already know which is a waste. I have about 20 hours on the weekend I can use towards accomplishing a class and I will have minimal waste since my curriculum is tailored directly for me. Of course it is only because I already wasted a decade learning math poorly that I know what I want to know and what I need to know to know it ;)
- throwaway729 10y ago
  > They would make me take courses on subjects I already know which is a waste Then find a lower-tier university. In any densely populated region there will be at least one that's happy to take your tuition money to let you enroll in a non-degree-earning course of study. You'll only have an issue if you want a degree which, BTW, is typically intended to be broader than a narrow course of study in a particular area of expertise.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- whorleater 10y ago
  Prerequisites for classes are oftentimes a suggestion, you can easily get into a class you don't meet the prerequisites for by simply signing up for the class (most class registration systems don't bar this), or by emailing the professor and getting an override. Furthermore, if you're a non-degree seeking student, the university cares very little about you, so you can skate by with a lot more freedom with classes.
  - svanderbleek 10y ago
    Interesting. Certainly something to consider. I never thought about being a non-degree seeking student.
    - qrendel 10y ago
fromMars 10y ago
I have studied a lot of mathematics on my own. I did study physics as an undergrad. But, I went back and studied Real Analysis, Measure Theory, Combinatorics, Topology, and Stochastic Calculus. I have found, though, that while I have a decent grasp of the concepts my understanding and ability to solve problems isn't as strong as the math grad students who studied these topics deeply. I have found the knowledge useful, but I would agree that it would be hard to achieve the same results.
- nextos 10y ago
  I don't see anything stupid about learning advanced mathematics on your own if you have previously followed a rigorous undergrad in physics or compsci. Lots of mathematicians switch to a different subfield within their careers. And they do so by self studying, obviously. If your compsci or physics undergrad provided you with a decent degree of mathematical maturity, it should be doable. The problem here is that compsci is still young, and there is a lot of variability. So diving into differential forms after attending a Java school sounds like a bad idea.
  - optimuspaul 10y ago
    I disagree. I've been studying advanced math on my own for years with some success. I didn't have any rigorous undergrad experience, I don't even have a degree. But I also don't learn the same way most would, classrooms were never my forte, and I've found the way that advanced math is taught even just in textbooks lacks creativity. Humans are capable of great things, don't discourage someone from trying.
chris_wot 10y ago
Its it stupid at all. I taught myself Triginometry from a book for fun. Sure, not everyone's idea of a good time but I don't see the need to take a University or College course for lots of money when in fact I only spent about AU$34.95 on a good book and I didn't need to feel rushed in getting to grips with the concepts. I learn different things at different speeds, a course makes me go at a speed I don't enjoy. This is perfect.
- jamez1 10y ago
  It's not about need, it's the structure that a university provides when you're trying to study complex topics. And trigonometry is taught in high schools? It's something most children pick up, I don't think it's a fair comparison to say, measure theory.
  - arvinsim 10y ago
    From a third world perspective, it is taught in high school but I rarely know anyone who gets interested in it after graduating, much less retain the knowledge that they learned.
  - fao_ 10y ago
    Many textbooks provide much the same structure as in universities. However, I have had a lot of success in attempting to read far above my level, and satisfying the dependencies that I need along the way.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    You think trigonometry is taught in primary school? You miss the point also: I was taught trig in high school, and I remember SOHCAHTOA, etc - but until I looked at lines drawn on a unit circle and worked put what secant, sine, tangent and their corresponding ratios meant I didn't really understand trig.
- Retra 10y ago
  I'm not sure there are many places where Trigonometry is considered advanced mathematics.
behnamoh 10y ago
I would partially agree. Yes, it's stupid if you have enough time "and" money to go to university and study math. Otherwise, if you have enough time, this plan might work for you. But, I wouldn't consider it a wise move, because science/math graduates are already struggling to find jobs in/out-side the academia, and a math degree from a decent university goes a long way in landing you a job. I think, math, unlike CS, is not a "skill" you use in your everyday work. Whoever does math/science has to dedicate much of their life to it. CS you can learn on the internet, by MOOC's, or just by reading books about it. Math on the other hand, simply doesn't work like that. To be clear, by math, I mean "advanced" mathematics as the title indicates. Elementary (and intermediate) math is required to learn no matter what.
atondwal 10y ago
This course of study seems to take just as much, if not more, time than a math ugrad+master's at a typical uni. The people who could really benefit from having a path of textbooks like this fall into two categories: those who don't have access a university (due to poverty, rural location, and/or being a shift worker, for example), and high school students. And I think the latter category is more important than people realize. When I was a high school student, I benefitted greatly from t'Hooft's theorist.html (like this, but for physics, and put together by one of the Greats of the field). It's part of what got me really interested in physics, it was a whole lot of fun, and it actually did a pretty good job of preparing me for graduate-level coursework. Eventually I left physics and math for CS (I'm in PL, so this is even less drastic of career change than one might think), but I still have warm memories of working along t'Hooft's guide and checking off topics as I finished the problems in each textbook.
- kahrkunne 10y ago
  A friend of mine is in high school, and he's absolutely brilliant in math. I'll be sure to link him this.
mkorple 10y ago
> If you cannot go to university full time, go part time. If you cannot go part time, you don't have enough time to actually learn any of these topics on your own. Going to university part time eats up more time than reading a textbook at home or wherever you are in your spare time. It also locks you in to the specific pace that the class is at which is not optimal for most people, because people learn different things at different paces. There is also the cost of university to consider.

bpchaps 10y ago

Sometimes the issue isn't time - it's money and access to schooling. Just because you've had the access, doesn't mean others do - and there are many, many who don't.

throwaway729 10y ago
> Just because you've had the access, doesn't mean others do... I don't think that the author of the post you're responding to is making any sort of normative claim. > Sometimes the issue isn't time - it's money and access to schooling I think the author is suggesting that if you have that kind of free time, then you either a) must be independently wealthy, or else that b) trading some of that free time for cash you can use to buy credit hours is a net positive because the guidance is worth it (again, assuming your goal is to learn math as opposed to eg obtain a uni degree). I agree that's not necessarily a good assumption globally, but it's probably a decent assumption for almost everyone in the west, both in terms of self-learning capabilities and in terms of available funds.
- clarry 10y ago
  I don't think it's a decent assumption for "almost everyone" in the west. I'd say it often is the case that you won't have enough free time for such studies unless you trade cash (income) for the free time. At which point you may not have much after paying the bills. Or you're unemployed and, well, don't have the cash. You suggest trading some of that free time for cash, as if unemployment were something people solve by snapping their fingers and choosing to make a trade. That sounds a bit insulting towards all the people (who are many) that struggle with unemployment in western countries.
  - throwaway729 10y ago
    > You suggest trading some of that free time for cash, as if unemployment were something people solve by snapping their fingers and choosing to make a trade Not at all; I meant in the form of a loan, where free time is time you would otherwise spend retired. And I was also assuming that you already have a decent job that allows you to work 40 hours or so and make a comfortable enough living to consider spending your free time learning math. Frankly, I can't possibly imagine trying to do something like learn advanced mathematics while also struggling with un- or under-employment. I grant that there are probably people far more motivated and resilient than I assume :-)
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      Such as Ramanujan. ;)
      - throwaway729 10y ago
        Sure, there are outliers. My post explicitly deals with the common case only.
        bpchaps 10y ago
        Yes, but think about those in between the outliers. Troubled situations and many cases where loans aren't feasible or possible. I'll pass on a world where policy and education only deals with the common case.

Eerie 10y ago

>It's typically 150 hours per class and it's not something you do after coming exhausted home from work either. Assuming you can only invest, lets say, 5 hours on the weekend, it will be 30 weeks per class, summing up to ~1.5 classes per year year. I'd say that if someone can keep that up for 10 years, theirs understanding of math will be far above the average population...

svanderbleek 10y ago

I hope it is not stupid. I won't fit inside the university system at this point. They would make me take courses on subjects I already know which is a waste. I have about 20 hours on the weekend I can use towards accomplishing a class and I will have minimal waste since my curriculum is tailored directly for me. Of course it is only because I already wasted a decade learning math poorly that I know what I want to know and what I need to know to know it ;)

throwaway729 10y ago
> They would make me take courses on subjects I already know which is a waste Then find a lower-tier university. In any densely populated region there will be at least one that's happy to take your tuition money to let you enroll in a non-degree-earning course of study. You'll only have an issue if you want a degree which, BTW, is typically intended to be broader than a narrow course of study in a particular area of expertise.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
whorleater 10y ago
Prerequisites for classes are oftentimes a suggestion, you can easily get into a class you don't meet the prerequisites for by simply signing up for the class (most class registration systems don't bar this), or by emailing the professor and getting an override. Furthermore, if you're a non-degree seeking student, the university cares very little about you, so you can skate by with a lot more freedom with classes.
- svanderbleek 10y ago
  Interesting. Certainly something to consider. I never thought about being a non-degree seeking student.
  - qrendel 10y ago

fromMars 10y ago

I have studied a lot of mathematics on my own. I did study physics as an undergrad. But, I went back and studied Real Analysis, Measure Theory, Combinatorics, Topology, and Stochastic Calculus. I have found, though, that while I have a decent grasp of the concepts my understanding and ability to solve problems isn't as strong as the math grad students who studied these topics deeply. I have found the knowledge useful, but I would agree that it would be hard to achieve the same results.

nextos 10y ago
I don't see anything stupid about learning advanced mathematics on your own if you have previously followed a rigorous undergrad in physics or compsci. Lots of mathematicians switch to a different subfield within their careers. And they do so by self studying, obviously. If your compsci or physics undergrad provided you with a decent degree of mathematical maturity, it should be doable. The problem here is that compsci is still young, and there is a lot of variability. So diving into differential forms after attending a Java school sounds like a bad idea.
- optimuspaul 10y ago
  I disagree. I've been studying advanced math on my own for years with some success. I didn't have any rigorous undergrad experience, I don't even have a degree. But I also don't learn the same way most would, classrooms were never my forte, and I've found the way that advanced math is taught even just in textbooks lacks creativity. Humans are capable of great things, don't discourage someone from trying.

chris_wot 10y ago

Its it stupid at all. I taught myself Triginometry from a book for fun. Sure, not everyone's idea of a good time but I don't see the need to take a University or College course for lots of money when in fact I only spent about AU$34.95 on a good book and I didn't need to feel rushed in getting to grips with the concepts. I learn different things at different speeds, a course makes me go at a speed I don't enjoy. This is perfect.

jamez1 10y ago
It's not about need, it's the structure that a university provides when you're trying to study complex topics. And trigonometry is taught in high schools? It's something most children pick up, I don't think it's a fair comparison to say, measure theory.
- arvinsim 10y ago
  From a third world perspective, it is taught in high school but I rarely know anyone who gets interested in it after graduating, much less retain the knowledge that they learned.
- fao_ 10y ago
  Many textbooks provide much the same structure as in universities. However, I have had a lot of success in attempting to read far above my level, and satisfying the dependencies that I need along the way.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  You think trigonometry is taught in primary school? You miss the point also: I was taught trig in high school, and I remember SOHCAHTOA, etc - but until I looked at lines drawn on a unit circle and worked put what secant, sine, tangent and their corresponding ratios meant I didn't really understand trig.
Retra 10y ago
I'm not sure there are many places where Trigonometry is considered advanced mathematics.

behnamoh 10y ago

I would partially agree. Yes, it's stupid if you have enough time "and" money to go to university and study math. Otherwise, if you have enough time, this plan might work for you. But, I wouldn't consider it a wise move, because science/math graduates are already struggling to find jobs in/out-side the academia, and a math degree from a decent university goes a long way in landing you a job. I think, math, unlike CS, is not a "skill" you use in your everyday work. Whoever does math/science has to dedicate much of their life to it. CS you can learn on the internet, by MOOC's, or just by reading books about it. Math on the other hand, simply doesn't work like that. To be clear, by math, I mean "advanced" mathematics as the title indicates. Elementary (and intermediate) math is required to learn no matter what.

atondwal 10y ago

This course of study seems to take just as much, if not more, time than a math ugrad+master's at a typical uni. The people who could really benefit from having a path of textbooks like this fall into two categories: those who don't have access a university (due to poverty, rural location, and/or being a shift worker, for example), and high school students. And I think the latter category is more important than people realize. When I was a high school student, I benefitted greatly from t'Hooft's theorist.html (like this, but for physics, and put together by one of the Greats of the field). It's part of what got me really interested in physics, it was a whole lot of fun, and it actually did a pretty good job of preparing me for graduate-level coursework. Eventually I left physics and math for CS (I'm in PL, so this is even less drastic of career change than one might think), but I still have warm memories of working along t'Hooft's guide and checking off topics as I finished the problems in each textbook.

kahrkunne 10y ago
A friend of mine is in high school, and he's absolutely brilliant in math. I'll be sure to link him this.

mkorple 10y ago

> If you cannot go to university full time, go part time. If you cannot go part time, you don't have enough time to actually learn any of these topics on your own. Going to university part time eats up more time than reading a textbook at home or wherever you are in your spare time. It also locks you in to the specific pace that the class is at which is not optimal for most people, because people learn different things at different paces. There is also the cost of university to consider.