24 ms·

ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

204 points by inputcoffee 10y ago

thaumasiotes 10y ago
Haven't read the piece. This is a very interesting headline, though, since as I understand it the federal nondiscrimination requirements for universities are tied to the fact that students receive federal funding, and when universities tried to point out that they can't tell whether a student's bank account has been filled by a government loan or some other means they got shot down.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  They cannot see if the student is getting financial assistance in the way of food stamps, for example, but the student loan and grant program isn't like that. The federal money goes to the school first, and then anything above and beyond that will be deposited in the student's account. Which means students at this school now can either pay cash or get unsubsidized, non-garunteed funding through the private market, probably needing a cosigner or good credit. Some religious schools opt for this to be free from some types of federal standards. They may have other sorts of financial options available, but I'm not sure.
  - thaumasiotes 10y ago
    This is directly contradicted by https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-manual#Direct https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-manual#Direct : > Federal financial assistance may be received directly or indirectly.(11) For example, colleges indirectly receive Federal financial assistance when they accept students who pay, in part, with Federal financial aid directly distributed to the students. Grove City College v. Bell, 465 U.S. 555, 564 (1984) Here's a summary from wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX ) of Grove City: > The Court decided that since Grove City College was only receiving federal funding through the grant program, only that program had to be in compliance. The ruling was a major victory for those opposed to Title IX, as it made many institutions' sports programs outside of the rule of Title IX and, thus, reduced the scope of Title IX.[3] The ruling, however, was short-lived. The Civil Rights Restoration Act was passed in 1988 which extended Title IX coverage to all programs of any educational institution that receives any federal assistance, both direct and indirect. (emphasis mine) So, you're just plain wrong as to the state of the law; if the government gives somebody a big pile of cash, and they use it to pay for college, all federal regulations apply to the school. It is not necessary for the school to receive, distribute, or know about the federal money.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      This doesn't change the fact that most federal loan and aid money goes directly to the school first. I'm not even sure if one can get the federal loans without working with the school. It just appears that there are a few grant programs that pay directly to the student. This doesn't change the way the loans are generally processed.
- warfangle 10y ago
  This is specifically one institution that is at risk for having its accreditation revoked.
Unbeliever69 10y ago
Please lets not dignify this sham of a business be referred to as a "University."
Gargoyle 10y ago
"ITT is barred from awarding raises, paying bonuses or making severance payments to its executives or paying dividends without the department’s approval." Wow. How do we make that happen for TBTF financial companies?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  You lobby your Congressional representatives. Elizabeth Warren has been kicking ass and taking names, but can't do it all alone.
projectramo 10y ago
What took so long? No seriously. With all the articles we read about predatory practices, and various TV segments, what takes so long for things to fall into place? I wonder if there is a good way to distribute information about school quality. And that applies to not-for-profit schools as well. Collect metrics, make sure you give them to the purchaser at decision time. Akin to labels on food. If the for-profit or non-profit has great placement and great training, good for them.
- esaym 10y ago
  Hard to regulate what everyone wants I suppose. There are many schools like this around me and I know more people that went to these schools, both young and old, than I do people that went to an actual college. And yea, most of them are still out of work...but for what ever reason they don't seem to mind.
- buckbova 10y ago
  Took a long time to take action against corrinthian colleges. 2007: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-colleges-raid_N.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-col... 2008: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-students.html http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-stud... This year: http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-colleges-to-pay-over-1b-for-defrauding-students/ http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-col... Unfortunately the damage done by these institutions is so great that it's ruined the credibility of getting many degrees or specialized training and all while saddling students with lifetime debt to the detriment of the national debt. People really need to go to jail for this fraud. In some places I'm sure they are dragged out into the street and shot. I'm not advocating that . . . maybe one in the leg.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > What took so long? The Education Department action actually is a late part of the process, and a result of the accreditation problems the school is having, which result from the financial problems they are having, which are in part due to the SEC (2015) and CFPB (2014) lawsuits they are dealing with over different kinds of fraud related to student loans, which were the earlier parts of the government action against ITT. And this article isn't even about the first step in the Department of Education action, but an escalation of that action.
esaym 10y ago
Personally I don't think the government has the right to bar anyone from getting any kind of education. Yes, some of these are a shame, but the student might still learn something. And there's also the issue of time and scheduling. Many older people don't have the time to go to a traditional college and taking a 1 year program at night for a "2 year associates degree" fits them better. Even worse still, most of these tech type schools around where I am are "non-profit". Not sure what that means or whats the difference, but they are just as much as a shame. One is some "art institute". I knew a girl who's dad paid $30K for her to go there for a year. She graduated but only worked briefly afterwards, and then couldn't get employed again. There is another aviation institute near me (also non-profit). Again $30K for 1 year of schooling. Although most could get a job afterwards, they found out working at McDonald's was far better than crawling around in a 110 degree aircraft fuel tank checking for leaks for $15hr.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  I think the government has a right to ensure that the aid it pays out for an education is actually going towards an education, and not a front for siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and shareholders.
  - wang_li 10y ago
    >not a front for siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and shareholders. So many public and private non-profit universities are going to wet themselves if anyone starts enforcing that rule. Ok, they don't have shareholders, but it's well documented that the increasing cost of university and college educations is largely driven by administrative overhead and not paying professors, adjuncts and lecturers.
    - Kevin_S 10y ago
      The increase in administrative overhead and such is more a case of the modern customer. Comparing private non profit universities and these BS places is stretching too far. On the customers - the ability to attract modern students rests more on amenities like dining halls and dorms, not on the academics. Sad, but ultimately true.
inputcoffee 10y ago
The original title is actually "This really might be the end of ITT" which I thought was clickbaity and didn't really explain the story.
- dang 10y ago
  That was definitely baity and you were right to change it (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). But we always prefer a title to use representative language from the article itself, where possible, so I've done that above.
- emeraldd 10y ago
  On the other hand cutting off Title IV is basically the death penalty for a university ... So the original title might not be that far off from reality.
  - inputcoffee 10y ago
    Clickbaity titles are "true" in the sense of being accurate. The issue with them is that they don't explain what the article is about (forcing you to click on them and then to figure out whether you are interested in the topic).
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      Maybe it's just me, but the original also sounds like someone with a bias against ITT would write
swalsh 10y ago
This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's like all that "change" we were hoping for with Obama seems to be coming at once.
- S_Daedalus 10y ago
  Is that really shocking? That's the kind of thing that happens when a president is leaving, and doesn't have to worry about another term, or in this case, campaigning for anyone.
- Unbeliever69 10y ago
  When the discontinuation of federal prison article came up on hacker news I commented, "Now if we could only outlaw for-profit schools!"
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dangero 10y ago
    What's wrong with someone educating people and making a profit while doing it?
    - ulkram 10y ago
      Exactly, there are a lot of good private universities.
      - ng12 10y ago
        In the USA, private does not mean for-profit. The good private universities are still non-profit. There's nothing wrong with for-profit schools in theory. It's a socio-economic problem. There's already so much money flowing through the US university system that the vast majority of for-profit schools are predatory institutions targeting lower-class, under-educated people. Their primary business model is to convince students to take out loans to pay for a white-collar education that won't make them any more employable.
emeraldd 10y ago
http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-education-bans-itt-enrolling-new-title-iv-students-adds-tough-new-financial-oversight http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-education-b... An non-paywalled link.
korethr 10y ago
I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum, better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well. That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its accreditation, closes, etc. Where does that leave me and the other graduates who actually do have a modicum of knowledge and competence? Are our degrees automatically scrubbed from history, having never been -- leaving us unqualified to hold our current jobs or any future ones that require a college degree? Do our degrees become a black mark against us, nullifying any experience displayed on the same resume? Or will it just be a non-event that nobody notices or cares about?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- diyorgasms 10y ago
  Degrees from these sorts of institutions are already arguably a black mark. I've seen this come up a few times in /r/sysadmin, and to some people, attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most cursory research before making a huge life decision. Fair or not, you can be almost certain you are not being considered for some positions because you attended ITT.
  - korethr 10y ago
    > attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most cursory research before making a huge life decision. Meh. Again, torn. I can understand the sentiment having had my own frustration with interviewing ITT tech grads years later. And it seems somewhat fair to hold that attitude against a recent graduate, considering the allegations have been around for some years now. But almost 15 years ago, with most accusations having not yet been levied and internet access not as widespread, "the most cursory research" wouldn't have likely have lead one to warnings about the school. I shouldn't worry about it terribly. What's done is done and the only thing that can be done for it is to do the best work I can, and let the results speak for themselves.
walrus01 10y ago
The worst thing about ITT Tech (the stupid for profit scam school) is the problem it causes for the employees of ITT, the big defense contractor/technology company, which has nothing to do with the tech school. The "real" ITT has had its name dragged through the mud by these bullshit artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-for-4-4-billion-1423223233 http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-for-4-... http://www.itt.com/Home/ http://www.itt.com/Home/ So you worked at ITT in a senior technical engineering or management role, put that on your resume. Looking for a new job, good luck watching it get shitcanned by HT departments where somebody is scanning through resumes and will discard anything with "ITT" on it. Not fair, and lazy, but it happens.
- leereeves 10y ago
  Even though their name is simply ITT now (ITT Inc) I think I would put the old name International Telephone & Telegraph on my resume.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    Know some people who worked for mid-size defence contractors (like EDO) that were acquired by ITT prior to 2012, even though they were receiving paychecks from "ITT" when they moved on, they put the name of the original easily googleable defense contractor on their resumes.
grahamburger 10y ago
A few years ago I had to make several hires in cities away from the main operations of our business. These were technical positions, but not really highly skilled positions - think geek squad level proficiency. Many of the candidates came out of ITT, and to be honest they were among the best candidates for this level position, or at least they interviewed the best. I got the impression that ITT spends a lot of time refining interview techniques - amusingly, at the end of the interview each ITT candidate asked us the same 3 questions almost verbatim, I'm certain those questions were drilled in to them as part of mock interviews. They were good questions, I wouldn't have thought anything of it until the 3rd or 4th time it happened and I started to notice the pattern. From that experience, I have a hard time writing off ITT + similar as worthless or even predatory. I don't know what these people paid for there education, maybe it was enough that they'll never be able to get a good enough job to get out of debt, but it certainly seems like it was worth something. These people were certainly employable, and IMO moreso on average than those from similar socio-economic backgrounds who didn't have any secondary education to speak of.
- korethr 10y ago
  How many of them did you end up hiring? That's not sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. My experience with ITT tech candidates was the opposite. When interviewing for a datacenter tech position, the candidates were hit and miss on basic sysadmin questions, and seemed to have never seen computer hardware before. To be fair, rackmountable datacenter-style computers look quite a bit different on the outside from the more commonly seen towers and laptops you'll find on a person's desk in an office. But once you open one up, basic components are similar enough that they should be easy to identify. DIMMs are DIMMs, hard drives are hard drives, etc. But when you point to a power supply and tell me that it is the CPU because it has all the wires, or tell me that the video card you're holding is a sound card, you should not have passed the computer hardware class requisite for your degree.
  - grahamburger 10y ago
    We probably hired ~7 altogether. Some were great, some mediocre as you'd expect. Honestly I don't know that they would have been any better at answering the questions you referenced, but I do think that on average they would have done better than others who applied but didn't have any secondary education. That indicates to me that the value of the ITT degree is >0. Whether or not the value of the degree is enough to make up for what they paid, I honestly don't know - although several of them had used military money to get the degree so they weren't really out much.
nyargh 10y ago
As a private university with access to federal student loans, you get a firehose of financing, but aren't exposed to any downside from the defaults. Students and taxpayers are the bagholders, and you've already cashed the check.
yuhong 10y ago
I think the way it started is that the agency threatened to take ACICS off the approved agencies for accreditation.
douche 10y ago
Now if we could just get them disallowed from running terrible TV advertisements...
michaelbuddy 10y ago
Whether for-profit or non-profit (yeah right) most upcoming freshman shouldn't be eligible for any of these student loans. They are all predatory, and these students have no credit history. I'd abolish loans for education completely and watch the cost of college and books drop back to affordable prices.
digitalabyss 10y ago
I am an ITT Tech graduate who paid their way through school using federal loans. I earned my A.A.S in Electronic and Computer Engineering Technology and my B.S. in Electronic and Communications Engineering Technology from ITT Tech. I started the process in 2001. My total student loan debt was over $60K when I graduated but I knew that would be the case going in. I don't buy this crap about 18 years olds not knowing what they are getting into. While my program of study was electronics engineering I always intended on working in IT. I wanted to get my degree in electronics engineering because I felt I would get more out of an instructor led education in electronics than I would in IT. After graduation my first job was an desktop support specialist for a software company which turned into a junior system administrator position one year later. After one more year I switched to my current job where I was hired as system administrator and am now a Senior Linux Administrator. I make good money for the location and was able to pay off all my student loans and put a down payment on a house when I was 32. In full disclosure this was speed up by about 5 years due to my mom passing and a life insurance policy I was the beneficiary on but it really only speed up the process by those 5 years. I already was doing pretty well before she passed. I had some outstanding instructors and I refuse to do them an injustice by saying my education was sub-par or otherwise not worth the investment. Of all my friends who went to normal state universities I am doing the best for myself career wise. From what I heard from them at the time the state university standards where dropping just as much as the private for profit schools. After earning my M.S. in Information Technology I went back and taught part time as an adjunct for both the electronics and information technology departments. I quit about 3 years ago when I moved about 1hr away and did not want to commute. This was just supplemental income for me and never my primary job so I was able to just do things my own way and not worry about the repercussions if I failed to may students or did not haul the corporate line. Things definitely where different by the time I went back to teach. The standards where not what they use to be when I was a student. They also added a lot of degree programs with attractive sounding names such as Digital Entertainment and Game Design which attracted a much broader student base and failed to provide any sort of meaningful filtering of who they accepted. However the faculty was still a outstanding group of people who knew their stuff. I cant speak for other ITT Techs than my own. I'm sure for every person like me who had a positive experience there are numerous people who could tell a horror story about their experiences at ITT Tech. I just feel like a large part of the problem is that ITT accepts people who are not college material and these people are doomed to struggle or fail out and when they do they are also a demographic of individuals who are more likely to blame the system than accept any blame themselves. Perhaps it is ITT Techs fault for accepting them; its certainly doing the schools reputation a disservice. But just like with the student loans I have a hard time accepting people do not know what they are getting into or filling sorry for them if they did not do their research before hand. I fully acknowledge ITT Tech has its fair share of problems which have gotten worse over the years. I just don't think its particularly unique to them or even for profit schools.
NotSammyHagar 10y ago
We should also stop allowing all colleges (including public ones) to graze on the huge loans that their students get. If there were not endless federal loans, public schools wouldn't be able to endlessly raise their tuition.
mavhc 10y ago
"ITT is no longer allow to new enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants" washington post is no longer allow to cheque there articles.
crb002 10y ago
This could be good for ITT going fully private. Much more control of it's product.
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member2212 10y ago
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ravenstine 10y ago
I'm going to call BS on nearly everything said here about for profit schools. While I don't particularly care if ITT can't accept people relying on federal loans, I do believe that people aren't being duped by crappy schools so much as they are falling for them. Sure, the commercials have been everywhere for years, but it's really not hard for even the dumbest of dumb to type "ITT sucks" into Google and find all sorts of legitimate negative reviews. I have been to two trade schools for different careers; I chose them because there was almost nothing but positive reviews about them on the internet. I suspect that people attending scam schools have poor shenanigan-sensing skills and may subconsciously think that commercials on TV provide some sort of legitimacy. This is why I have no sympathy for the people who attended "Trump University", as at the very least you should go into such a program assuming there's a high chance it will sick and have an escape plan ready. But my generation doesn't seem to do that often and would rather rely on the safety nets provided by their parents and the state. Actually, it is a good thing that they can no longer take students with federal loans because those will be the same students whose ineptitude will fail them and then they will want the government to "forgive" their debt. LOL

204 points by inputcoffee 10y ago

Haven't read the piece. This is a very interesting headline, though, since as I understand it the federal nondiscrimination requirements for universities are tied to the fact that students receive federal funding, and when universities tried to point out that they can't tell whether a student's bank account has been filled by a government loan or some other means they got shot down.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago
They cannot see if the student is getting financial assistance in the way of food stamps, for example, but the student loan and grant program isn't like that. The federal money goes to the school first, and then anything above and beyond that will be deposited in the student's account. Which means students at this school now can either pay cash or get unsubsidized, non-garunteed funding through the private market, probably needing a cosigner or good credit. Some religious schools opt for this to be free from some types of federal standards. They may have other sorts of financial options available, but I'm not sure.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  This is directly contradicted by https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-manual#Direct https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-vi-legal-manual#Direct : > Federal financial assistance may be received directly or indirectly.(11) For example, colleges indirectly receive Federal financial assistance when they accept students who pay, in part, with Federal financial aid directly distributed to the students. Grove City College v. Bell, 465 U.S. 555, 564 (1984) Here's a summary from wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX ) of Grove City: > The Court decided that since Grove City College was only receiving federal funding through the grant program, only that program had to be in compliance. The ruling was a major victory for those opposed to Title IX, as it made many institutions' sports programs outside of the rule of Title IX and, thus, reduced the scope of Title IX.[3] The ruling, however, was short-lived. The Civil Rights Restoration Act was passed in 1988 which extended Title IX coverage to all programs of any educational institution that receives any federal assistance, both direct and indirect. (emphasis mine) So, you're just plain wrong as to the state of the law; if the government gives somebody a big pile of cash, and they use it to pay for college, all federal regulations apply to the school. It is not necessary for the school to receive, distribute, or know about the federal money.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    This doesn't change the fact that most federal loan and aid money goes directly to the school first. I'm not even sure if one can get the federal loans without working with the school. It just appears that there are a few grant programs that pay directly to the student. This doesn't change the way the loans are generally processed.
warfangle 10y ago
This is specifically one institution that is at risk for having its accreditation revoked.

Unbeliever69 10y ago

Please lets not dignify this sham of a business be referred to as a "University."

Gargoyle 10y ago

"ITT is barred from awarding raises, paying bonuses or making severance payments to its executives or paying dividends without the department’s approval." Wow. How do we make that happen for TBTF financial companies?

toomuchtodo 10y ago
You lobby your Congressional representatives. Elizabeth Warren has been kicking ass and taking names, but can't do it all alone.

projectramo 10y ago

What took so long? No seriously. With all the articles we read about predatory practices, and various TV segments, what takes so long for things to fall into place? I wonder if there is a good way to distribute information about school quality. And that applies to not-for-profit schools as well. Collect metrics, make sure you give them to the purchaser at decision time. Akin to labels on food. If the for-profit or non-profit has great placement and great training, good for them.

esaym 10y ago
Hard to regulate what everyone wants I suppose. There are many schools like this around me and I know more people that went to these schools, both young and old, than I do people that went to an actual college. And yea, most of them are still out of work...but for what ever reason they don't seem to mind.
buckbova 10y ago
Took a long time to take action against corrinthian colleges. 2007: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-colleges-raid_N.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-18-col... 2008: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-students.html http://www.ocregister.com/articles/graduates-193364-job-stud... This year: http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-colleges-to-pay-over-1b-for-defrauding-students/ http://college.usatoday.com/2016/03/25/former-corinthian-col... Unfortunately the damage done by these institutions is so great that it's ruined the credibility of getting many degrees or specialized training and all while saddling students with lifetime debt to the detriment of the national debt. People really need to go to jail for this fraud. In some places I'm sure they are dragged out into the street and shot. I'm not advocating that . . . maybe one in the leg.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> What took so long? The Education Department action actually is a late part of the process, and a result of the accreditation problems the school is having, which result from the financial problems they are having, which are in part due to the SEC (2015) and CFPB (2014) lawsuits they are dealing with over different kinds of fraud related to student loans, which were the earlier parts of the government action against ITT. And this article isn't even about the first step in the Department of Education action, but an escalation of that action.

esaym 10y ago

Personally I don't think the government has the right to bar anyone from getting any kind of education. Yes, some of these are a shame, but the student might still learn something. And there's also the issue of time and scheduling. Many older people don't have the time to go to a traditional college and taking a 1 year program at night for a "2 year associates degree" fits them better. Even worse still, most of these tech type schools around where I am are "non-profit". Not sure what that means or whats the difference, but they are just as much as a shame. One is some "art institute". I knew a girl who's dad paid $30K for her to go there for a year. She graduated but only worked briefly afterwards, and then couldn't get employed again. There is another aviation institute near me (also non-profit). Again $30K for 1 year of schooling. Although most could get a job afterwards, they found out working at McDonald's was far better than crawling around in a 110 degree aircraft fuel tank checking for leaks for $15hr.

nkrisc 10y ago
I think the government has a right to ensure that the aid it pays out for an education is actually going towards an education, and not a front for siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and shareholders.
- wang_li 10y ago
  >not a front for siphoning federal aid for the enrichment of executives and shareholders. So many public and private non-profit universities are going to wet themselves if anyone starts enforcing that rule. Ok, they don't have shareholders, but it's well documented that the increasing cost of university and college educations is largely driven by administrative overhead and not paying professors, adjuncts and lecturers.
  - Kevin_S 10y ago
    The increase in administrative overhead and such is more a case of the modern customer. Comparing private non profit universities and these BS places is stretching too far. On the customers - the ability to attract modern students rests more on amenities like dining halls and dorms, not on the academics. Sad, but ultimately true.

inputcoffee 10y ago

The original title is actually "This really might be the end of ITT" which I thought was clickbaity and didn't really explain the story.

dang 10y ago
That was definitely baity and you were right to change it (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). But we always prefer a title to use representative language from the article itself, where possible, so I've done that above.
emeraldd 10y ago
On the other hand cutting off Title IV is basically the death penalty for a university ... So the original title might not be that far off from reality.
- inputcoffee 10y ago
  Clickbaity titles are "true" in the sense of being accurate. The issue with them is that they don't explain what the article is about (forcing you to click on them and then to figure out whether you are interested in the topic).
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    Maybe it's just me, but the original also sounds like someone with a bias against ITT would write

swalsh 10y ago

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's like all that "change" we were hoping for with Obama seems to be coming at once.

S_Daedalus 10y ago
Is that really shocking? That's the kind of thing that happens when a president is leaving, and doesn't have to worry about another term, or in this case, campaigning for anyone.
Unbeliever69 10y ago
When the discontinuation of federal prison article came up on hacker news I commented, "Now if we could only outlaw for-profit schools!"
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dangero 10y ago
  What's wrong with someone educating people and making a profit while doing it?
  - ulkram 10y ago
    Exactly, there are a lot of good private universities.
    - ng12 10y ago
      In the USA, private does not mean for-profit. The good private universities are still non-profit. There's nothing wrong with for-profit schools in theory. It's a socio-economic problem. There's already so much money flowing through the US university system that the vast majority of for-profit schools are predatory institutions targeting lower-class, under-educated people. Their primary business model is to convince students to take out loans to pay for a white-collar education that won't make them any more employable.

emeraldd 10y ago

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-education-bans-itt-enrolling-new-title-iv-students-adds-tough-new-financial-oversight http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/department-education-b... An non-paywalled link.

korethr 10y ago

I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum, better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well. That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its accreditation, closes, etc. Where does that leave me and the other graduates who actually do have a modicum of knowledge and competence? Are our degrees automatically scrubbed from history, having never been -- leaving us unqualified to hold our current jobs or any future ones that require a college degree? Do our degrees become a black mark against us, nullifying any experience displayed on the same resume? Or will it just be a non-event that nobody notices or cares about?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
diyorgasms 10y ago
Degrees from these sorts of institutions are already arguably a black mark. I've seen this come up a few times in /r/sysadmin, and to some people, attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most cursory research before making a huge life decision. Fair or not, you can be almost certain you are not being considered for some positions because you attended ITT.
- korethr 10y ago
  > attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most cursory research before making a huge life decision. Meh. Again, torn. I can understand the sentiment having had my own frustration with interviewing ITT tech grads years later. And it seems somewhat fair to hold that attitude against a recent graduate, considering the allegations have been around for some years now. But almost 15 years ago, with most accusations having not yet been levied and internet access not as widespread, "the most cursory research" wouldn't have likely have lead one to warnings about the school. I shouldn't worry about it terribly. What's done is done and the only thing that can be done for it is to do the best work I can, and let the results speak for themselves.

walrus01 10y ago

The worst thing about ITT Tech (the stupid for profit scam school) is the problem it causes for the employees of ITT, the big defense contractor/technology company, which has nothing to do with the tech school. The "real" ITT has had its name dragged through the mud by these bullshit artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exelis_Inc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Corporation http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-for-4-4-billion-1423223233 http://www.wsj.com/articles/harris-corp-to-buy-exelis-for-4-... http://www.itt.com/Home/ http://www.itt.com/Home/ So you worked at ITT in a senior technical engineering or management role, put that on your resume. Looking for a new job, good luck watching it get shitcanned by HT departments where somebody is scanning through resumes and will discard anything with "ITT" on it. Not fair, and lazy, but it happens.

leereeves 10y ago
Even though their name is simply ITT now (ITT Inc) I think I would put the old name International Telephone & Telegraph on my resume.
- walrus01 10y ago
  Know some people who worked for mid-size defence contractors (like EDO) that were acquired by ITT prior to 2012, even though they were receiving paychecks from "ITT" when they moved on, they put the name of the original easily googleable defense contractor on their resumes.

grahamburger 10y ago

A few years ago I had to make several hires in cities away from the main operations of our business. These were technical positions, but not really highly skilled positions - think geek squad level proficiency. Many of the candidates came out of ITT, and to be honest they were among the best candidates for this level position, or at least they interviewed the best. I got the impression that ITT spends a lot of time refining interview techniques - amusingly, at the end of the interview each ITT candidate asked us the same 3 questions almost verbatim, I'm certain those questions were drilled in to them as part of mock interviews. They were good questions, I wouldn't have thought anything of it until the 3rd or 4th time it happened and I started to notice the pattern. From that experience, I have a hard time writing off ITT + similar as worthless or even predatory. I don't know what these people paid for there education, maybe it was enough that they'll never be able to get a good enough job to get out of debt, but it certainly seems like it was worth something. These people were certainly employable, and IMO moreso on average than those from similar socio-economic backgrounds who didn't have any secondary education to speak of.

korethr 10y ago
How many of them did you end up hiring? That's not sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. My experience with ITT tech candidates was the opposite. When interviewing for a datacenter tech position, the candidates were hit and miss on basic sysadmin questions, and seemed to have never seen computer hardware before. To be fair, rackmountable datacenter-style computers look quite a bit different on the outside from the more commonly seen towers and laptops you'll find on a person's desk in an office. But once you open one up, basic components are similar enough that they should be easy to identify. DIMMs are DIMMs, hard drives are hard drives, etc. But when you point to a power supply and tell me that it is the CPU because it has all the wires, or tell me that the video card you're holding is a sound card, you should not have passed the computer hardware class requisite for your degree.
- grahamburger 10y ago
  We probably hired ~7 altogether. Some were great, some mediocre as you'd expect. Honestly I don't know that they would have been any better at answering the questions you referenced, but I do think that on average they would have done better than others who applied but didn't have any secondary education. That indicates to me that the value of the ITT degree is >0. Whether or not the value of the degree is enough to make up for what they paid, I honestly don't know - although several of them had used military money to get the degree so they weren't really out much.

nyargh 10y ago

As a private university with access to federal student loans, you get a firehose of financing, but aren't exposed to any downside from the defaults. Students and taxpayers are the bagholders, and you've already cashed the check.

yuhong 10y ago

I think the way it started is that the agency threatened to take ACICS off the approved agencies for accreditation.

douche 10y ago

Now if we could just get them disallowed from running terrible TV advertisements...

michaelbuddy 10y ago

Whether for-profit or non-profit (yeah right) most upcoming freshman shouldn't be eligible for any of these student loans. They are all predatory, and these students have no credit history. I'd abolish loans for education completely and watch the cost of college and books drop back to affordable prices.

digitalabyss 10y ago

I am an ITT Tech graduate who paid their way through school using federal loans. I earned my A.A.S in Electronic and Computer Engineering Technology and my B.S. in Electronic and Communications Engineering Technology from ITT Tech. I started the process in 2001. My total student loan debt was over $60K when I graduated but I knew that would be the case going in. I don't buy this crap about 18 years olds not knowing what they are getting into. While my program of study was electronics engineering I always intended on working in IT. I wanted to get my degree in electronics engineering because I felt I would get more out of an instructor led education in electronics than I would in IT. After graduation my first job was an desktop support specialist for a software company which turned into a junior system administrator position one year later. After one more year I switched to my current job where I was hired as system administrator and am now a Senior Linux Administrator. I make good money for the location and was able to pay off all my student loans and put a down payment on a house when I was 32. In full disclosure this was speed up by about 5 years due to my mom passing and a life insurance policy I was the beneficiary on but it really only speed up the process by those 5 years. I already was doing pretty well before she passed. I had some outstanding instructors and I refuse to do them an injustice by saying my education was sub-par or otherwise not worth the investment. Of all my friends who went to normal state universities I am doing the best for myself career wise. From what I heard from them at the time the state university standards where dropping just as much as the private for profit schools. After earning my M.S. in Information Technology I went back and taught part time as an adjunct for both the electronics and information technology departments. I quit about 3 years ago when I moved about 1hr away and did not want to commute. This was just supplemental income for me and never my primary job so I was able to just do things my own way and not worry about the repercussions if I failed to may students or did not haul the corporate line. Things definitely where different by the time I went back to teach. The standards where not what they use to be when I was a student. They also added a lot of degree programs with attractive sounding names such as Digital Entertainment and Game Design which attracted a much broader student base and failed to provide any sort of meaningful filtering of who they accepted. However the faculty was still a outstanding group of people who knew their stuff. I cant speak for other ITT Techs than my own. I'm sure for every person like me who had a positive experience there are numerous people who could tell a horror story about their experiences at ITT Tech. I just feel like a large part of the problem is that ITT accepts people who are not college material and these people are doomed to struggle or fail out and when they do they are also a demographic of individuals who are more likely to blame the system than accept any blame themselves. Perhaps it is ITT Techs fault for accepting them; its certainly doing the schools reputation a disservice. But just like with the student loans I have a hard time accepting people do not know what they are getting into or filling sorry for them if they did not do their research before hand. I fully acknowledge ITT Tech has its fair share of problems which have gotten worse over the years. I just don't think its particularly unique to them or even for profit schools.

NotSammyHagar 10y ago

We should also stop allowing all colleges (including public ones) to graze on the huge loans that their students get. If there were not endless federal loans, public schools wouldn't be able to endlessly raise their tuition.

mavhc 10y ago

"ITT is no longer allow to new enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants" washington post is no longer allow to cheque there articles.

crb002 10y ago

This could be good for ITT going fully private. Much more control of it's product.

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ravenstine 10y ago

I'm going to call BS on nearly everything said here about for profit schools. While I don't particularly care if ITT can't accept people relying on federal loans, I do believe that people aren't being duped by crappy schools so much as they are falling for them. Sure, the commercials have been everywhere for years, but it's really not hard for even the dumbest of dumb to type "ITT sucks" into Google and find all sorts of legitimate negative reviews. I have been to two trade schools for different careers; I chose them because there was almost nothing but positive reviews about them on the internet. I suspect that people attending scam schools have poor shenanigan-sensing skills and may subconsciously think that commercials on TV provide some sort of legitimacy. This is why I have no sympathy for the people who attended "Trump University", as at the very least you should go into such a program assuming there's a high chance it will sick and have an escape plan ready. But my generation doesn't seem to do that often and would rather rely on the safety nets provided by their parents and the state. Actually, it is a good thing that they can no longer take students with federal loans because those will be the same students whose ineptitude will fail them and then they will want the government to "forgive" their debt. LOL