22 ms·

“How do I choose not to share my account information with Facebook?”

539 points by SnaKeZ 10y ago

slantedview 10y ago
Having removed the app a while back but not formally deleted my account, seems like I have to re-install, dig up my account again, then opt out. What a hassle.
Aissen 10y ago
The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.
gyosko 10y ago
What if I don't have that option in Whatsapp? Does it mean you can't opt-out after 30 days?
- roymurdock 10y ago
  You're probably (like me) on version 2.16.9, released 8/15/16, and haven't received the new TOS update yet.
- jayess 10y ago
  That's how it looks to me. I don't have the option.
  - gyosko 10y ago
    Probably they didn't update the app yet?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
xanadohnt 10y ago
Are we supposed to congratulate WhatsApp for doing something that should be expected with 1.0? Furthermore, your default is incorrect; sharing info is opt-in.
- jethro_tell 10y ago
  > your default is incorrect; sharing info is opt-in. Uh, I mean, that's the whole point of facebook.
skrowl 10y ago
Or... you know... just use something like Telegram that isn't owned by Facebook. Their data-sharing / privacy policy is pretty simple https://telegram.org/privacy https://telegram.org/privacy 1. Sharing data We never share your data with anyone. No.
- gyosko 10y ago
  If only more people used Telegram.. I love it, but only a couple of friends use it.
  - mercer 10y ago
    Try to convince them anyways. Once they get past the grumbling of installing a new app and the entirely hypothetical inconvenience of having multiple chat apps, they'll realize that in practice it isn't really much cause for inconvenience.
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      Having to look in half a dozen apps to track down information is not a hypothetical inconvenience.
      - mercer 10y ago
        Oddly enough I expected to run into that problem, but in practice it's hardly ever been an issue. I think in my particular case it helps that I generally insist on using email or telegram for communication where it's important to find it again later. But you're right. At times I've had to search for information because I didn't remember which communication tool we used.
        Joeboy 10y ago
        I work on lots of projects with lots of people, and I end up with hundreds of conversations spread over Email, SMS/Signal, Facebook, Skype and WhatsApp. It frustrates the hell out of me. The great thing about Signal for me is that it also handles SMS so there's no extra app to check. But yeah, no group chats, no desktop client, most conversations are unencrypted anyway because normal people don't care about privacy. If anybody were to ask me to use Telegram I'd be pleased they had an interest in encrypting our communications but annoyed about having to install yet another app.
peatmoss 10y ago
I had few enough people who I've communicated with via Whatsapp that I was able to simply delete my account. I hope that means they'll actually purge my data rather than sharing it with Facebook. This is one of the problems of digital identity--privacy has a latent value. The company you choose to share data with today, may choose choose to share with / merge with a third party in the future.
chinathrow 10y ago
So when you remove that tickbox "Share my account info" - your data still gets shared: "The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities." Never does it say, you won't get ads. But if you share, you will get "improved ads". Am I reading this right?
- overcast 10y ago
  I would just assume anything you do on the Facebook family of applications, is using your information to maximize revenue. Regardless of what tick boxes you check.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Cozumel 10y ago
It's kind of pointless, Facebook owns Whatsapp so they have all that info anyway. 'The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.'
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  Exactly. Moreover, a look at the permissions required by Facebook app would reveal how much information it collects about you: Device & app history retrieve running apps Identity find accounts on the device add or remove accounts read your own contact card Calendar read calendar events plus confidential information add or modify calendar events and send email to guests without owners' knowledge Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts Location approximate location (network-based) precise location (GPS and network-based) SMS read your text messages (SMS or MMS) Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Photos/Media/Files read the contents of your USB storage modify or delete the contents of your USB storage Storage read the contents of your USB storage modify or delete the contents of your USB storage Camera take pictures and videos Microphone record audio Wi-Fi connection information view Wi-Fi connections Device ID & call information read phone status and identity Other download files without notification adjust your wallpaper size receive data from Internet view network connections create accounts and set passwords read battery statistics send sticky broadcast change network connectivity connect and disconnect from Wi-Fi expand/collapse status bar full network access change your audio settings read sync settings run at startup reorder running apps set wallpaper draw over other apps control vibration prevent device from sleeping toggle sync on and off install shortcuts read Google service configuration
  - quickben 10y ago
    Just out of curiosity, are there any permissions they don't try to get?
et-al 10y ago
There's already two threads on the front page about the WhatsApp TOS change, do we really need a third when this link is already in one of the top-voted comments? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 Duplicate threads like this just dilute the conversation especially when the comments made here are already opinions voiced elsewhere.
hointytointy 10y ago
How much do you want to bet they will make sharing mandatory in 6-12 months? Opting-out is a fig leaf to head off bad press in the short term.
nicolas_t 10y ago
My problem with whatsapp is that there's no way to use it without giving access to my entire contact list to the app. And that's out of the question for me.
- jambo 10y ago
  On iOS you can actually deny access when the OS prompt comes up and WhatsApp will still work. You just have to start conversations using a phone number instead of a name/contact. I use it this way, and it is a little inconvenient but I feel better not uploading my phone book.
  - WA 10y ago
    While this is noble of you, I guess 99% of your (and mine) contacts won't do the same. So you're protecting your friends, while your own number is still shared with Facebook. This is what annoys me the most. I can't control what people put in their address book about me (physical address, email, photo, phone number, maybe even more infos) and who they share my info with.
- nodepackageman 10y ago
  There's XPrivacy out there, which proxies apps' requests for various information like contacts or location. But you need a rooted Android phone to use it.
- angryasian 10y ago
  I thought with Android Marshmallow and iOS you can deny access to contacts. I guess if you're not on Marshmallow or higher, you're not going to get this benefit
  - Leon 10y ago
    A lot of apps these days will not run unless they get access to the data they request. What I would like to see is android having the ability to give empty sets of information if so chosen instead of denying access, or to compartmentalize applications access to shared resources more.
coders 10y ago
Help me understand this, they have enabled end-to-end encryption for personal and group chats. Then, how is it possible to use message data to serve FB ads?
omginternets 10y ago
I don't have the Share my Account option on Android.
- cosmotron 10y ago
  Perhaps you accepted the new terms more than 30 days ago and instead of showing a greyed-out checkbox, they simply hide it altogether.
  - MatthiasP 10y ago
    More likely he hasn't received the relevant update yet.
    - MicroBerto 10y ago
      Or maybe because Facebook app isn't installed? I don't have it on mine, so maybe they're not 'linked'
- dewiz 10y ago
  Same here, I went through all settings twice and checked for sw updates. No luck so far. I miss the days when all friends were on IRC...
- hardlianotion 10y ago
  Neither do I. My app was updated last night. I don't use Facebook, but I as I can't opt out I can't assure myself that the will be no sharing with their 'partners'. So I am out.
- omginternets 10y ago
  I just got the notification today. Looks like I simply hadn't upgraded. False alarm!
chinathrow 10y ago
I don't see the data sharing opt-out thingie with FB as the big news today. The big news is that your eye-balls are officially for sale now. Marketing is specifically mentioned as a new form of communication towards the users. No banner ads (yet), but other formats. It was good, while it lasted. PS to WhatsApp: If you manage to launch a no-data-sale privacy option for x$/y, I signup in a heartbeat.
AceJohnny2 10y ago
Man, remember the late 90s and early 2000s, when the IM scene was a mess of incompatible networks like ICQ and AIM and MSN Messenger, and people were like "fuck this" and came up with this protocol that was interoperable with all the others through gateways and also it was extendable, and we could all be happy together?... /grump The worst part is that WhatsApp is actually based on Jabber >:(
- SamWhited 10y ago
  > The worst part is that WhatsApp is actually based on Jabber I'm missing something here; why is this a bad thing?
  - niftich 10y ago
    It's ironic; that albeit they started with an open federation protocol they don't federate and are essentially a proprietary service.
    - SamWhited 10y ago
      XMPP isn't an "open federation protocol" it's just a protocol that includes a means to federate; doing so is a matter of server preference. It would be great if more large services federated, but I'd rather have them use XMPP and not federate than build more custom protocols and not use XMPP at all so that I can't write a third party client for them. My point is that being based on XMPP is still a good thing, regardless of whether they federate or not.
      - bad_user 10y ago
        The whole point of XMPP is interoperability, so saying some proprietary service uses it internally is useless for the rest of the world without interoperability. Can you connect with third party clients? Can they federate? Are they contributing to the protocol? No. So what's good about it?
        10y ago
plg 10y ago
If only there existed a peer to peer solution that doesn't require trusting a central host
- redditmigrant 10y ago
  A fundamental limitation of the peer to peer setup for messaging is the lack of a reliable way to send a message while your contact is offline. If your answer to that is to have intermediaries that are always available and can store and forward, you run into issues of needing a lot of these intermediaries in a mobile centric(low power, intermittently online) world.
- dest 10y ago
  Bitmessage?
vthallam 10y ago
So this was quite expected anyway. Though initially the acquisition seemed to be a defensive one where FB prevents Wechat kind of features coming from Whatsapp, the amount of data whatsapp has, is a treasure trove for all the advertisers and as a public company, FB just did what is expected by the shareholders. But it's kinda scary that emperor Zuck has so much power over the people, like FB/Messenger/Whatsapp/Instagram are the top apps everyone uses. I am glad Snapchat didn't sell out.
- ffggvv 10y ago
  So much power? You give him power. Just delete your facebook account and uninstall their apps!
  - throwanem 10y ago
    And watch your friendships grow stale, lose touch with your family members, opt out of knowing about upcoming events... The phrase "network effect" exists for a reason. Where people don't think about keeping in touch with others in any terms other than Facebook, refusing to play along with Facebook comes with serious consequences.
    - MrZongle2 10y ago
      "And watch your friendships grow stale, lose touch with your family members, opt out of knowing about upcoming events..." And how exactly do you think these things worked before Facebook? "Friends" who don't want to make the effort to stay in touch outside of a dead-simple social app aren't friends, anyway.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        I mean, yeah, that's easy to say and all, and it makes you feel special and everything. It's also horseshit. The problem is not that your friends don't care enough about you to keep in touch by means other than Facebook. The problem is that Facebook has so completely insinuated itself into and throughout a billion people's interpersonal relationships that your friends don't even think about keeping in touch by means other than Facebook. Put another way, we find ourselves in a situation where a single, rather secretive corporation mediates the interactions of a significant fraction of the species, and has already been known to manipulate the perception of its users in ways which might be to its benefit. When I was a kid, this would've been no more than fodder for third-rate dystopian sf which even fans of the genre mostly wouldn't take seriously. And yet, somehow, here we are.
amaks 10y ago
Simple, just don't use WhatsApp.
- newscracker 10y ago
  I'm not sure how much help this would be, but also make sure to delete your WhatsApp account before you stop using it (instead of just deleting the app and abandoning the account).
pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
uh... not having a facebook account seems like the only reasonable way. you're all idiots.
CodeMichael 10y ago
I'm trying to find more info about https://wire.com https://wire.com They would seem to be doing all the right things, such as OTR and not rolling their own protocols, but I've only been able to find a couple of opinions and nothing concrete. The fact that they've made effort to open source it and are letting people write their own clients for it is encouraging, but not proof that it's a solid system.
- newscracker 10y ago
  I discovered Wire a few months ago and have been impressed with its feature set. While Wire states that it is using axolotl ratchet, note that it is not the same as the Signal protocol used by Signal. Apparently Wire took the axolotl ratchet (the one Signal started with) and created a custom version for its own use. Moxie stated something of this sort in a comment recently on HN. There have also been some conflicts between Wire and OpenWhisperSystems (searching the web, in addition to reading up on Wire's site, will show you different sides of this). To avoid confusion about axolotl ratchet and its usage, OpenWhisperSystems changed the name of the protocol used to Signal protocol in March. [1] [1]: https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-inside-and-out/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-inside-and-out/
  - CodeMichael 10y ago
    Thanks for the response. My sense from the information is that the protocols are extremely similar, the implementation is the primary difference.
- cJ0th 10y ago
  Just made an account. Looks pretty good so far. A huge plus, imo, is that they don't require a phone number at all. However, I am afraid I won't be able to convince anyone to use it :(
  - tdkl 10y ago
    It must be one of the cleanest Android apps I've ever seen, yet alone messenger apps. The settings are well done, it performs great and doesn't even run a service (at least the Play Store version). Think I'm going to try to bring some of the close friends/family to this.
prplhaz4 10y ago
sooo, apparently there's only a limited time period (30d) where you are allowed to opt out of the data sharing... >> After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. If you do not want your account information shared with Facebook to improve your Facebook ads and products experiences, you can uncheck the box or toggle the control.
kristianc 10y ago
This is an incredibly ugly dark pattern. The 'share information with Facebook' nugget is hidden behind a toggle at the bottom of the screen, and will be guaranteed to be missed by the 99% of users who just want to talk to their friends. Then, once you've agreed to the terms and conditions, you've got a completely arbitrary 30 days to read an online article which tells you what you've signed up for before WhatsApp is irrevocably sharing your data with Facebook. You can build an incredibly accurate picture of people's lives from metadata alone - WhatsApp know it and Facebook know it. Not only that - when WhatsApp start building out these 'brand' relationships which will look a lot like helpful information at first - you'll be loading your data into that brand's custom FB audience too. And you won't have an opt out because, y'know, reasons. This is very obviously not the WhatsApp that promised not to fuck with its users when Facebook bought it out.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  Most don't like hearing this: if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. I suspect that you'd be familiar with LinkedIn dark patterns [0] too. [0] https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae726fe1462 https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae...
  - kristianc 10y ago
    It's not that simple. There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook that don't involve signing up for Facebook at all. It's more - don't sign into a public wifi network, don't hand over your email address at a checkout, don't sign up for a store card.. oh, and don't sign up for Facebook either. Not just that, but even if your number is not shared with Facebook, but Facebook knows that ten of your friends all contact you three times a week, you're still in the graph even if you're not personally receiving advertising.
    - ffggvv 10y ago
      That practice can be fought more easily in courts. Also the more user deleting they're accounts the less "friends" you have that share your number with facebook.
dang 10y ago
There are three active threads about this, the present one and these other two: "WhatsApp is going to share your phone number with Facebook": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 "Looking ahead for WhatsApp": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 Normally we'd merge the threads, but the discussions are large and come from three different perspectives, so that might not be best. HN practice is to have one front-page thread at a time about a story, but if you're concerned about the topic you might want to check in on the other discussions.
ffggvv 10y ago
Guys, there's only one solution. Delete your accounts and uninstall the apps. That's it! Here's the link to delete your account. https://www.facebook.com/help/delete_account https://www.facebook.com/help/delete_account
- newscracker 10y ago
  I deleted my WhatsApp account the moment I learned it was acquired by Facebook. Unfortunately, I have to use Facebook for certain purposes to reach certain people. So Facebook very likely has more information (including my phone number) from other Facebook users and WhatsApp users who have me in their contact lists.
jamisteven 10y ago
Linkability at its best. Been saying for years that FB is trying to help establish the single-sign-on for all to access the internet. Thats why every major email and social outlet are demanding you input your phone number and secondary email alongside your existing account info. Eventually this will help the government know who is behind each IP address. No need to keep avoiding the phone number security prompt at the top of FB anymore, they already have it through their acquisiton of whatsApp, what a shame.
DavideNL 10y ago
in Dutch we have a word for this, called "poppenkast". Translated literally it means "puppet-show"...
mbloom1915 10y ago
that's not a serious question right? why you are even using anything Fb touches/owns/operates is the real issue
et-al 10y ago
> the discussions are large and come from three different perspectives The discussions have ballooned, but having read the other two in the morning, this one just feels like a rehash of the same privacy concerns folks have raised. And for anyone reading about possible solutions to their concerns, they'd have to jump between 2-3 different threads now. I'm glad there's at least WhatsApp thread is on front page for everyone's sake, but personally I felt like the Looking ahead for WhatsApp discussion covered much of what's being said here. The difference is that poster didn't have as good of a title and submitted it when much of the West Coast was still asleep. Also, while this site doesn't have the resources to comb and diff each new thread to make sure it's not a dupe, I wish more users would point this out when it does happen. At the very least, thanks for pointing out the two existing threads, but we shouldn't be afraid of merging threads to make it easier for future users to reference (if they do).
- dang 10y ago
  Fair enough, but I don't see a clearly better solution. Do you? Since this is a bit meta I've detached the subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12361031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12361031 and marked it off-topic.
  - et-al 10y ago
    Edited my comment to clarify some things, but a solution is that if someone points out a thread is a potential dupe, be more open to the possibility of merging that discussion? Especially since the bulk other thread was already talking about privacy concerns and most users would go down that route. Also, you already do a great job moderating here, but this is just one of those few situations where I'm in disagreement with you on this particular instance.
tailrecursion 10y ago
If people want to use snazzy services but don't want to pay, and then outlaw collecting private information, presumably the owner of the snazzy service will find some more complicated or secret way to monetize its users?
kevincox 10y ago
It's interesting that Facebook Messenger still doesn't have ads. It even supports using it without a Facebook account (although you do need a phone number and it appears to be slightly limited)
chad_strategic 10y ago
-->How do I choose not to share my account information with Facebook? Answer: Don't use Facebook.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Not true. They still build shadow profiles of you.
  - chad_strategic 10y ago
    That's the NSA funded wing of Facebook. (Don't tell anybody)
StanislavPetrov 10y ago
You can't. According to them, even if you opt out: >The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.
Zhenya 10y ago
One question no-one is answering. Will this be pushed in the future, or have we accepted the terms earlier?!
wonkaWonka 10y ago
The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes... Answer: YOU DO NOT.
nashashmi 10y ago
I am reading the opt out agreement as far too specific. It says do not share info with Facebook for improved ads experience. MEANING SHARE info WITH FACEBOOK anyways, even if you are not interested in ads. I don't want any of my info shared. Yet there is no way to opt out of it.
- throwawayReply 10y ago
  FTA > The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities. So you can't not share.
Zhenya 10y ago
I just got the prompt to accept the new terms. 1) you did not have to scroll to opt out. 2) opting out brought up a toast saying "when you tap 'agree', your account info will be used to improve your Facebook ads and product experiences" 3) there was a " X not now" option in the top right corner. I chose that. Edit: no app update was required. I'm guessing in the future, the could push ads the same way
ygra 10y ago
So what does this change mean if you're using WhatsApp while not having a Facebook account?
titomc 10y ago
Ironically, I just whatsapped all my "non-IT" friends on how to "not agree" by finding the hidden data sharing checkbox.
fx85ms 10y ago
This seems like a potentially stupid question, but the link only shows how to do it on an android device. The terms sprung up on me in the iOS app (I have yet to update it) and thankfully I found the hidden toggle button. There does not seem to be an equivalent way to turn off the sharing of data on my iOS device, so if anyone has found a way, please tell me about it.
harry8 10y ago
I wonder how Moxie feels about being used in what looks to be a pretty spectacular privacy bait-and-switch.
Qantourisc 10y ago
I cannot wait on Matrix protocol, I just hope it will be used.
nanospeck 10y ago
I wonder, what are the odds of success if someone starts a paid social network say for 5$/month. Ad-free, no-snopping, secure social network. E.g. Diaspora pod with good UI and more features. Would you be willing to pay for it?
nanospeck 10y ago
I thought an SSL encryption would not let 'anyone' else read your messages. So that means even if whatsapp promises SSL encryptin, they can read our messages? Is it technically possible? Forgive my ignorance.
- ino 10y ago
  from https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ - Your messages are yours, and we can’t read them. We’ve built privacy, end-to-end encryption, and other security features into WhatsApp. We don’t store your messages once they’ve been delivered. When they are end-to-end encrypted, we and third parties can’t read them. So they can share location, phone number, contact book, maybe chat group names if they're not encrypted, and maybe the people participating in those groups, the online/offline status, who and when you call, what else am I missing?
ViProvoft 10y ago
My phone does not show 'share my account info' option... Please can you help me
THROANN77 10y ago
hi, am Anderson, i had my friend help me hack my ex's email, facebook, whatsapp,and his phone cause i suspected he was cheating. all he asked for was a his phone number. he's email is (cyberlord7714@gmail.com)..IF u need help tell him Anderson referred you to him and he'll help. Am sure his going to help you do it, good luck
THROANN77 10y ago
hi, am Anderson, i had my friend help me hack my ex's email, facebook, whatsapp,and his phone cause i suspected he was cheating. all he asked for was a his phone number. he's email is (cyberlord7714@gmail.com)..IF u need help tell him Anderson referred you to him and he'll help. Am sure his going to help you do it, good luck

539 points by SnaKeZ 10y ago

Having removed the app a while back but not formally deleted my account, seems like I have to re-install, dig up my account again, then opt out. What a hassle.

Aissen 10y ago

The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.

gyosko 10y ago

What if I don't have that option in Whatsapp? Does it mean you can't opt-out after 30 days?

roymurdock 10y ago
You're probably (like me) on version 2.16.9, released 8/15/16, and haven't received the new TOS update yet.
jayess 10y ago
That's how it looks to me. I don't have the option.
- gyosko 10y ago
  Probably they didn't update the app yet?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

xanadohnt 10y ago

Are we supposed to congratulate WhatsApp for doing something that should be expected with 1.0? Furthermore, your default is incorrect; sharing info is opt-in.

jethro_tell 10y ago
> your default is incorrect; sharing info is opt-in. Uh, I mean, that's the whole point of facebook.

skrowl 10y ago

Or... you know... just use something like Telegram that isn't owned by Facebook. Their data-sharing / privacy policy is pretty simple https://telegram.org/privacy https://telegram.org/privacy 1. Sharing data We never share your data with anyone. No.

gyosko 10y ago
If only more people used Telegram.. I love it, but only a couple of friends use it.
- mercer 10y ago
  Try to convince them anyways. Once they get past the grumbling of installing a new app and the entirely hypothetical inconvenience of having multiple chat apps, they'll realize that in practice it isn't really much cause for inconvenience.
  - Joeboy 10y ago
    Having to look in half a dozen apps to track down information is not a hypothetical inconvenience.
    - mercer 10y ago
      Oddly enough I expected to run into that problem, but in practice it's hardly ever been an issue. I think in my particular case it helps that I generally insist on using email or telegram for communication where it's important to find it again later. But you're right. At times I've had to search for information because I didn't remember which communication tool we used.
      - Joeboy 10y ago
        I work on lots of projects with lots of people, and I end up with hundreds of conversations spread over Email, SMS/Signal, Facebook, Skype and WhatsApp. It frustrates the hell out of me. The great thing about Signal for me is that it also handles SMS so there's no extra app to check. But yeah, no group chats, no desktop client, most conversations are unencrypted anyway because normal people don't care about privacy. If anybody were to ask me to use Telegram I'd be pleased they had an interest in encrypting our communications but annoyed about having to install yet another app.

peatmoss 10y ago

I had few enough people who I've communicated with via Whatsapp that I was able to simply delete my account. I hope that means they'll actually purge my data rather than sharing it with Facebook. This is one of the problems of digital identity--privacy has a latent value. The company you choose to share data with today, may choose choose to share with / merge with a third party in the future.

chinathrow 10y ago

So when you remove that tickbox "Share my account info" - your data still gets shared: "The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities." Never does it say, you won't get ads. But if you share, you will get "improved ads". Am I reading this right?

overcast 10y ago
I would just assume anything you do on the Facebook family of applications, is using your information to maximize revenue. Regardless of what tick boxes you check.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Cozumel 10y ago

It's kind of pointless, Facebook owns Whatsapp so they have all that info anyway. 'The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.'

0xmohit 10y ago
Exactly. Moreover, a look at the permissions required by Facebook app would reveal how much information it collects about you: Device & app history retrieve running apps Identity find accounts on the device add or remove accounts read your own contact card Calendar read calendar events plus confidential information add or modify calendar events and send email to guests without owners' knowledge Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts Location approximate location (network-based) precise location (GPS and network-based) SMS read your text messages (SMS or MMS) Phone directly call phone numbers read call log read phone status and identity write call log Photos/Media/Files read the contents of your USB storage modify or delete the contents of your USB storage Storage read the contents of your USB storage modify or delete the contents of your USB storage Camera take pictures and videos Microphone record audio Wi-Fi connection information view Wi-Fi connections Device ID & call information read phone status and identity Other download files without notification adjust your wallpaper size receive data from Internet view network connections create accounts and set passwords read battery statistics send sticky broadcast change network connectivity connect and disconnect from Wi-Fi expand/collapse status bar full network access change your audio settings read sync settings run at startup reorder running apps set wallpaper draw over other apps control vibration prevent device from sleeping toggle sync on and off install shortcuts read Google service configuration
- quickben 10y ago
  Just out of curiosity, are there any permissions they don't try to get?

et-al 10y ago

There's already two threads on the front page about the WhatsApp TOS change, do we really need a third when this link is already in one of the top-voted comments? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 Duplicate threads like this just dilute the conversation especially when the comments made here are already opinions voiced elsewhere.

hointytointy 10y ago

How much do you want to bet they will make sharing mandatory in 6-12 months? Opting-out is a fig leaf to head off bad press in the short term.

nicolas_t 10y ago

My problem with whatsapp is that there's no way to use it without giving access to my entire contact list to the app. And that's out of the question for me.

jambo 10y ago
On iOS you can actually deny access when the OS prompt comes up and WhatsApp will still work. You just have to start conversations using a phone number instead of a name/contact. I use it this way, and it is a little inconvenient but I feel better not uploading my phone book.
- WA 10y ago
  While this is noble of you, I guess 99% of your (and mine) contacts won't do the same. So you're protecting your friends, while your own number is still shared with Facebook. This is what annoys me the most. I can't control what people put in their address book about me (physical address, email, photo, phone number, maybe even more infos) and who they share my info with.
nodepackageman 10y ago
There's XPrivacy out there, which proxies apps' requests for various information like contacts or location. But you need a rooted Android phone to use it.
angryasian 10y ago
I thought with Android Marshmallow and iOS you can deny access to contacts. I guess if you're not on Marshmallow or higher, you're not going to get this benefit
- Leon 10y ago
  A lot of apps these days will not run unless they get access to the data they request. What I would like to see is android having the ability to give empty sets of information if so chosen instead of denying access, or to compartmentalize applications access to shared resources more.

coders 10y ago

Help me understand this, they have enabled end-to-end encryption for personal and group chats. Then, how is it possible to use message data to serve FB ads?

omginternets 10y ago

I don't have the Share my Account option on Android.

cosmotron 10y ago
Perhaps you accepted the new terms more than 30 days ago and instead of showing a greyed-out checkbox, they simply hide it altogether.
- MatthiasP 10y ago
  More likely he hasn't received the relevant update yet.
  - MicroBerto 10y ago
    Or maybe because Facebook app isn't installed? I don't have it on mine, so maybe they're not 'linked'
dewiz 10y ago
Same here, I went through all settings twice and checked for sw updates. No luck so far. I miss the days when all friends were on IRC...
hardlianotion 10y ago
Neither do I. My app was updated last night. I don't use Facebook, but I as I can't opt out I can't assure myself that the will be no sharing with their 'partners'. So I am out.
omginternets 10y ago
I just got the notification today. Looks like I simply hadn't upgraded. False alarm!

chinathrow 10y ago

I don't see the data sharing opt-out thingie with FB as the big news today. The big news is that your eye-balls are officially for sale now. Marketing is specifically mentioned as a new form of communication towards the users. No banner ads (yet), but other formats. It was good, while it lasted. PS to WhatsApp: If you manage to launch a no-data-sale privacy option for x$/y, I signup in a heartbeat.

AceJohnny2 10y ago

Man, remember the late 90s and early 2000s, when the IM scene was a mess of incompatible networks like ICQ and AIM and MSN Messenger, and people were like "fuck this" and came up with this protocol that was interoperable with all the others through gateways and also it was extendable, and we could all be happy together?... /grump The worst part is that WhatsApp is actually based on Jabber >:(

SamWhited 10y ago
> The worst part is that WhatsApp is actually based on Jabber I'm missing something here; why is this a bad thing?
- niftich 10y ago
  It's ironic; that albeit they started with an open federation protocol they don't federate and are essentially a proprietary service.
  - SamWhited 10y ago
    XMPP isn't an "open federation protocol" it's just a protocol that includes a means to federate; doing so is a matter of server preference. It would be great if more large services federated, but I'd rather have them use XMPP and not federate than build more custom protocols and not use XMPP at all so that I can't write a third party client for them. My point is that being based on XMPP is still a good thing, regardless of whether they federate or not.
    - bad_user 10y ago
      The whole point of XMPP is interoperability, so saying some proprietary service uses it internally is useless for the rest of the world without interoperability. Can you connect with third party clients? Can they federate? Are they contributing to the protocol? No. So what's good about it?
      - 10y ago

plg 10y ago

If only there existed a peer to peer solution that doesn't require trusting a central host

redditmigrant 10y ago
A fundamental limitation of the peer to peer setup for messaging is the lack of a reliable way to send a message while your contact is offline. If your answer to that is to have intermediaries that are always available and can store and forward, you run into issues of needing a lot of these intermediaries in a mobile centric(low power, intermittently online) world.
dest 10y ago
Bitmessage?

vthallam 10y ago

So this was quite expected anyway. Though initially the acquisition seemed to be a defensive one where FB prevents Wechat kind of features coming from Whatsapp, the amount of data whatsapp has, is a treasure trove for all the advertisers and as a public company, FB just did what is expected by the shareholders. But it's kinda scary that emperor Zuck has so much power over the people, like FB/Messenger/Whatsapp/Instagram are the top apps everyone uses. I am glad Snapchat didn't sell out.

ffggvv 10y ago
So much power? You give him power. Just delete your facebook account and uninstall their apps!
- throwanem 10y ago
  And watch your friendships grow stale, lose touch with your family members, opt out of knowing about upcoming events... The phrase "network effect" exists for a reason. Where people don't think about keeping in touch with others in any terms other than Facebook, refusing to play along with Facebook comes with serious consequences.
  - MrZongle2 10y ago
    "And watch your friendships grow stale, lose touch with your family members, opt out of knowing about upcoming events..." And how exactly do you think these things worked before Facebook? "Friends" who don't want to make the effort to stay in touch outside of a dead-simple social app aren't friends, anyway.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      I mean, yeah, that's easy to say and all, and it makes you feel special and everything. It's also horseshit. The problem is not that your friends don't care enough about you to keep in touch by means other than Facebook. The problem is that Facebook has so completely insinuated itself into and throughout a billion people's interpersonal relationships that your friends don't even think about keeping in touch by means other than Facebook. Put another way, we find ourselves in a situation where a single, rather secretive corporation mediates the interactions of a significant fraction of the species, and has already been known to manipulate the perception of its users in ways which might be to its benefit. When I was a kid, this would've been no more than fodder for third-rate dystopian sf which even fans of the genre mostly wouldn't take seriously. And yet, somehow, here we are.

amaks 10y ago

Simple, just don't use WhatsApp.

newscracker 10y ago
I'm not sure how much help this would be, but also make sure to delete your WhatsApp account before you stop using it (instead of just deleting the app and abandoning the account).

pg_is_a_butt 10y ago

uh... not having a facebook account seems like the only reasonable way. you're all idiots.

CodeMichael 10y ago

I'm trying to find more info about https://wire.com https://wire.com They would seem to be doing all the right things, such as OTR and not rolling their own protocols, but I've only been able to find a couple of opinions and nothing concrete. The fact that they've made effort to open source it and are letting people write their own clients for it is encouraging, but not proof that it's a solid system.

newscracker 10y ago
I discovered Wire a few months ago and have been impressed with its feature set. While Wire states that it is using axolotl ratchet, note that it is not the same as the Signal protocol used by Signal. Apparently Wire took the axolotl ratchet (the one Signal started with) and created a custom version for its own use. Moxie stated something of this sort in a comment recently on HN. There have also been some conflicts between Wire and OpenWhisperSystems (searching the web, in addition to reading up on Wire's site, will show you different sides of this). To avoid confusion about axolotl ratchet and its usage, OpenWhisperSystems changed the name of the protocol used to Signal protocol in March. [1] [1]: https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-inside-and-out/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-inside-and-out/
- CodeMichael 10y ago
  Thanks for the response. My sense from the information is that the protocols are extremely similar, the implementation is the primary difference.
cJ0th 10y ago
Just made an account. Looks pretty good so far. A huge plus, imo, is that they don't require a phone number at all. However, I am afraid I won't be able to convince anyone to use it :(
- tdkl 10y ago
  It must be one of the cleanest Android apps I've ever seen, yet alone messenger apps. The settings are well done, it performs great and doesn't even run a service (at least the Play Store version). Think I'm going to try to bring some of the close friends/family to this.

prplhaz4 10y ago

sooo, apparently there's only a limited time period (30d) where you are allowed to opt out of the data sharing... >> After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings > Account > Share my account info in the app. If you do not want your account information shared with Facebook to improve your Facebook ads and products experiences, you can uncheck the box or toggle the control.

kristianc 10y ago

This is an incredibly ugly dark pattern. The 'share information with Facebook' nugget is hidden behind a toggle at the bottom of the screen, and will be guaranteed to be missed by the 99% of users who just want to talk to their friends. Then, once you've agreed to the terms and conditions, you've got a completely arbitrary 30 days to read an online article which tells you what you've signed up for before WhatsApp is irrevocably sharing your data with Facebook. You can build an incredibly accurate picture of people's lives from metadata alone - WhatsApp know it and Facebook know it. Not only that - when WhatsApp start building out these 'brand' relationships which will look a lot like helpful information at first - you'll be loading your data into that brand's custom FB audience too. And you won't have an opt out because, y'know, reasons. This is very obviously not the WhatsApp that promised not to fuck with its users when Facebook bought it out.

0xmohit 10y ago
Most don't like hearing this: if you don't want your personal information to be shared, don't use these "social media" tools. I suspect that you'd be familiar with LinkedIn dark patterns [0] too. [0] https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae726fe1462 https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae...
- kristianc 10y ago
  It's not that simple. There are many many ways that your information can end up being referenced in an identity graph and be discoverable by Facebook that don't involve signing up for Facebook at all. It's more - don't sign into a public wifi network, don't hand over your email address at a checkout, don't sign up for a store card.. oh, and don't sign up for Facebook either. Not just that, but even if your number is not shared with Facebook, but Facebook knows that ten of your friends all contact you three times a week, you're still in the graph even if you're not personally receiving advertising.
  - ffggvv 10y ago
    That practice can be fought more easily in courts. Also the more user deleting they're accounts the less "friends" you have that share your number with facebook.

dang 10y ago

There are three active threads about this, the present one and these other two: "WhatsApp is going to share your phone number with Facebook": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358751 "Looking ahead for WhatsApp": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12358205 Normally we'd merge the threads, but the discussions are large and come from three different perspectives, so that might not be best. HN practice is to have one front-page thread at a time about a story, but if you're concerned about the topic you might want to check in on the other discussions.

ffggvv 10y ago

Guys, there's only one solution. Delete your accounts and uninstall the apps. That's it! Here's the link to delete your account. https://www.facebook.com/help/delete_account https://www.facebook.com/help/delete_account

newscracker 10y ago
I deleted my WhatsApp account the moment I learned it was acquired by Facebook. Unfortunately, I have to use Facebook for certain purposes to reach certain people. So Facebook very likely has more information (including my phone number) from other Facebook users and WhatsApp users who have me in their contact lists.

jamisteven 10y ago

Linkability at its best. Been saying for years that FB is trying to help establish the single-sign-on for all to access the internet. Thats why every major email and social outlet are demanding you input your phone number and secondary email alongside your existing account info. Eventually this will help the government know who is behind each IP address. No need to keep avoiding the phone number security prompt at the top of FB anymore, they already have it through their acquisiton of whatsApp, what a shame.

DavideNL 10y ago

in Dutch we have a word for this, called "poppenkast". Translated literally it means "puppet-show"...

mbloom1915 10y ago

that's not a serious question right? why you are even using anything Fb touches/owns/operates is the real issue

et-al 10y ago

> the discussions are large and come from three different perspectives The discussions have ballooned, but having read the other two in the morning, this one just feels like a rehash of the same privacy concerns folks have raised. And for anyone reading about possible solutions to their concerns, they'd have to jump between 2-3 different threads now. I'm glad there's at least WhatsApp thread is on front page for everyone's sake, but personally I felt like the Looking ahead for WhatsApp discussion covered much of what's being said here. The difference is that poster didn't have as good of a title and submitted it when much of the West Coast was still asleep. Also, while this site doesn't have the resources to comb and diff each new thread to make sure it's not a dupe, I wish more users would point this out when it does happen. At the very least, thanks for pointing out the two existing threads, but we shouldn't be afraid of merging threads to make it easier for future users to reference (if they do).

dang 10y ago
Fair enough, but I don't see a clearly better solution. Do you? Since this is a bit meta I've detached the subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12361031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12361031 and marked it off-topic.
- et-al 10y ago
  Edited my comment to clarify some things, but a solution is that if someone points out a thread is a potential dupe, be more open to the possibility of merging that discussion? Especially since the bulk other thread was already talking about privacy concerns and most users would go down that route. Also, you already do a great job moderating here, but this is just one of those few situations where I'm in disagreement with you on this particular instance.

tailrecursion 10y ago

If people want to use snazzy services but don't want to pay, and then outlaw collecting private information, presumably the owner of the snazzy service will find some more complicated or secret way to monetize its users?

kevincox 10y ago

It's interesting that Facebook Messenger still doesn't have ads. It even supports using it without a Facebook account (although you do need a phone number and it appears to be slightly limited)

chad_strategic 10y ago

-->How do I choose not to share my account information with Facebook? Answer: Don't use Facebook.

CaptSpify 10y ago
Not true. They still build shadow profiles of you.
- chad_strategic 10y ago
  That's the NSA funded wing of Facebook. (Don't tell anybody)

StanislavPetrov 10y ago

You can't. According to them, even if you opt out: >The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities.

Zhenya 10y ago

One question no-one is answering. Will this be pushed in the future, or have we accepted the terms earlier?!

wonkaWonka 10y ago

The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes... Answer: YOU DO NOT.

nashashmi 10y ago

I am reading the opt out agreement as far too specific. It says do not share info with Facebook for improved ads experience. MEANING SHARE info WITH FACEBOOK anyways, even if you are not interested in ads. I don't want any of my info shared. Yet there is no way to opt out of it.

throwawayReply 10y ago
FTA > The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems, understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities. So you can't not share.

Zhenya 10y ago

I just got the prompt to accept the new terms. 1) you did not have to scroll to opt out. 2) opting out brought up a toast saying "when you tap 'agree', your account info will be used to improve your Facebook ads and product experiences" 3) there was a " X not now" option in the top right corner. I chose that. Edit: no app update was required. I'm guessing in the future, the could push ads the same way

ygra 10y ago

So what does this change mean if you're using WhatsApp while not having a Facebook account?

titomc 10y ago

Ironically, I just whatsapped all my "non-IT" friends on how to "not agree" by finding the hidden data sharing checkbox.

fx85ms 10y ago

This seems like a potentially stupid question, but the link only shows how to do it on an android device. The terms sprung up on me in the iOS app (I have yet to update it) and thankfully I found the hidden toggle button. There does not seem to be an equivalent way to turn off the sharing of data on my iOS device, so if anyone has found a way, please tell me about it.

harry8 10y ago

I wonder how Moxie feels about being used in what looks to be a pretty spectacular privacy bait-and-switch.

Qantourisc 10y ago

I cannot wait on Matrix protocol, I just hope it will be used.

nanospeck 10y ago

I wonder, what are the odds of success if someone starts a paid social network say for 5$/month. Ad-free, no-snopping, secure social network. E.g. Diaspora pod with good UI and more features. Would you be willing to pay for it?

nanospeck 10y ago

I thought an SSL encryption would not let 'anyone' else read your messages. So that means even if whatsapp promises SSL encryptin, they can read our messages? Is it technically possible? Forgive my ignorance.

ino 10y ago
from https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ - Your messages are yours, and we can’t read them. We’ve built privacy, end-to-end encryption, and other security features into WhatsApp. We don’t store your messages once they’ve been delivered. When they are end-to-end encrypted, we and third parties can’t read them. So they can share location, phone number, contact book, maybe chat group names if they're not encrypted, and maybe the people participating in those groups, the online/offline status, who and when you call, what else am I missing?

ViProvoft 10y ago

My phone does not show 'share my account info' option... Please can you help me

THROANN77 10y ago

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THROANN77 10y ago