17 ms·

Agree 100%. A small step in the right direction. Our criminal justice system needs serious overhauls on SO many levels. Unfortunately, it is not only the fault

Agree 100%. A small step in the right direction. Our criminal justice system needs serious overhauls on SO many levels. Unfortunately, it is not only the fault of law enforcement, politicians, and judges. They are simply representing the will of the people. The heart of American citizens need to change. We live in such an unforgiving society. Despite what anyone says, America and Americans don't believe in 2nd chances. Anyone that survives our legal system and incarceration will NEVER have a true 2nd chance because we as Americans cannot and will not collectively forgive. I blame the media to be honest for perpetuating fear in the hearts of the masses. We live in a sad country filled with sad, fearful, unforgiving people. Maybe a blanket statement, but one that I believe to be true.

bradleyankrom 10y ago
I don't think it's necessarily the will of the people that they are representing, unless you mean 'people' in the Citizens United sense.
helthanatos 10y ago
We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison. We need a harsher system that accurately punishes crime.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  While I agree with the downvoting of this comment for the primitive perspective, I do also agree with the sentiment. Prison time does very little to change people and makes them more likely to re-offend. What matters is repaying the "debt" to society. Hard to do when a year in prison can cost more to the taxpayer than a year at Harvard.
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    >Prison time does very little to change people Probably most out-of-touch statement of the year.
    - gleenn 10y ago
      I'm assuming they meant change for the good, not just change.
    - rjbwork 10y ago
      I think he means in a positive manner.
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      As in change people from being the kind of person that does things that get them into prison.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  People can downvote you all they want, but this has certainly worked well for Singapore.
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    I wouldn't mind if your given a choice of 40 lashes vs. prison time. I would definitely take a temporary few days of pain over years or weeks of my life wasted in the psychological torture known as prison.
    - Unbeliever69 10y ago
      The time isn't the problem. It's living with a felony on your record that is a problem.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    And Iran cuts thieves hands off with band saw.[0] What's your point? Barbarism "works"? No thanks. [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9831727/Iran-unveils-finger-amputating-machine-for-use-on-thieves.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/98...
    - kazagistar 10y ago
      Incarceration as practiced in the USA is also barbarism.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      If you can't see that comparing welts on your butt for a week vs. lopping off a hand is hyperbolic, then I doubt that you're coming into this in good faith. Harsh punishments do work, when you apply them consistently and early on. While you may think that being caned is harsh, most people I've talked to would prefer to be caned over a month in prison. Singapore's use of the death penalty is a fairly good example. Kidnapping is a capitol offense -- consequently you see young kids walking around the Singapore alone and taking buses on their own.
- winfred 10y ago
  >We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison. Masochists all over the world support your cause.
  - helthanatos 10y ago
    1) It's cheaper. 2) It's actually more humane if you think about it.
ladzoppelin 10y ago
This is complete nonsense. Money has influenced these policies and most "Americans" tune out the process.
- MGMXI 10y ago
  Agreed. @Unbeliever69 Don't flatter Americans with this being our "will". It's a select group of people deciding on policies and their oversights are ultimately permitted by the public's indifference towards the political process.
- shkkmo 10y ago
  I believe Unbeliever69 is referring the difficulties involved in finding jobs or housing once you have a criminal record. That isn't just 'policies', that is the result of the individual actions people take. There certainly are exceptions, but those exceptions tent to prove the rule.
- Daishiman 10y ago
  Ever heard any elected American politician running on a platform of shorter sentences, rehabilitation and reducing prison population?
  - erichocean 10y ago
    > running on a platform of shorter sentences Trump? Oh, you meant criminal sentencing, not grammar. Got it.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I did hear of a guy like that once but it turns out I would be sexist if I didn't vote for his opponent. You see, it was her turn.
  - Chathamization 10y ago
    A number of politicians have advocated that, particularly when it comes to non-violent drug offenses. Clinton, for example, is running on that platform: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/ https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-refor... Though I should say that I'm not sure shorter sentences across the board are what's needed. We definitely need shorter sentences for non-violent drug offenses, and shorter sentences for inmates who seem like they can be rehabilitated is a good idea. On the other hand, I infrequently read about cases in the news where some deeply disturbed individual commits a truly heinous crime, and then is back out in the general population after only 2 or 3 years. There are some people who really should be in for a longer time. I often look at sentencing through the lens of "how would I feel if this person lived in my neighborhood." Someone like Mumia Abu-Jamal is in for life, but I wouldn't be particularly bothered if he lived next door to me (or Bernie Madoff, sentenced to 150 years). Then there are people who only get a few years, but I wouldn't want them living anywhere near me.
koenigdavidmj 10y ago
The will of the people is delight at prisoners being anally raped. Sometimes the state needs to do something different.
- smadge 10y ago
  True it's absolutely disgusting that prison rape is a punchline. There's not even a setup to the joke, just "you'll get raped in prison."
slavik81 10y ago
On the plus side, it seems attitudes have been improving (PDF): https://opportunityagenda.org/files/field_file/2014.08.23-CriminalJusticeReport-FINAL_0.pdf https://opportunityagenda.org/files/field_file/2014.08.23-Cr...
tn13 10y ago
> We live in a sad country filled with sad, fearful, unforgiving people. Maybe a blanket statement, but one that I believe to be true. I have personally found American people to be very cheerful and forgiving too. Land of second opportunities! But people are super insecure. They are not willing to stand up for the rights of criminals no matter what the crime is. It makes politician's life far more easier.
michaelbuddy 10y ago
So I'm supposed to forgive the guy who raped my cousin and killed her friend? Am I supposed to feel like he paid his dues. Whatever imaginary criminal you are inventing is not the real criminals who destroy lives every day. And their punishment for their violence the trauma they cause victims their families and their selfishness of taking lives cannot be punished enough in so many cases. It's not the media that causes victims and victim families to live sad or fearful or hateful. Desiring punishment and retribution for crimes is very much a natural thing. We see it in the animal kingdom as well. Any personal forgiveness is up to the individual(s) affected. Many criminals get off easy in the justice system. Some of them should never get out. Some of them deserve the pain they unleashed on their victims but sadly get 3 hots and a cot for 50 years, never contributing anything to society for their entire life.
- danharaj 10y ago
  You don't have to forgive anyone. Getting the retribution you think is just and deserved means giving the state the power to inflict that retribution on anyone it wants. There are consequences to having the brutish government punish people on your behalf and they always come back to harm the weak and innocent. Justice systems don't operate to make people feel better or make the evil suffer.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > Getting the retribution you think is just and deserved means giving the state the power to inflict that retribution on anyone it wants. Not giving that authority to the State means that it is retained by the People. The whole point of a justice system is to give the State a monopoly on violence: in return for giving up their right to vendetta, the People expect that the State will be scrupulous and fair in its prosecution of criminals. Indeed, this is the foundation of the legitimacy of the State, and it is why a State which refuses to execute justice will eventually lose legitimacy in the eyes of its People.
- Frondo 10y ago
  Forgiveness is up to you. I'd prefer the criminal justice system focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I'd rather we try to make society safer than exact revenge: we all have different ideas of revenge, but a safer society ought to be pretty easy to agree on.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
I completely agree. And considering forgiveness is such a core tenant of Christianity, it's surprising that people call the U.S. a Christian nation. Our use of capital punishment is also bizarre when you factor in the religious component. Or the utter lack of care for the poor. And I'm not saying religion should influence our laws, but I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc).
- micaksica 10y ago
  > I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc). While I have met many Christians in America that do live by their beliefs, I have found the majority of these self-professed "Christians" I have met are simply using the term as a tribal banner in which to wage a cultural war that enriches them and continues their evolutionary propagation at the expense of those that are not of the typical WASP voting bloc. The Christian doctrine of acceptance and tolerance appears long lost, and this same bigoted crowd often seems to be those that wonder why it is many people have turned to secularism. Those wishing extreme "punishment" on those we incarcerate -- and are supposed to rehabilitate -- are wishing to play the role of the God of the Old Testament, not follow the teachings of their messiah.
  - sfrailsdev 10y ago
    Maybe, but Martin Luther King Jr. was a reverend, and I have friends who attend GLBT or African American Churches that I'd never call part of the religious right. And even within the right, there are lots of different types of people. I am not super informed about Christianity in America, but it strikes me as a topic more complex and nuanced then your words might suggest you believe, and as a group more varied then you seem to have experienced.
- nsxwolf 10y ago
  I am Christian that does not claim the US is a Christian nation for precisely the reason you describe - forgiveness simply isn't an American value. We value punishment, stigmatization, and maintaining their permanence via information technology. We only forgive when it's convenient or necessary - thus Apple's hypocrisy in hiring an abusive misogynist like Dr. Dre, with Tim Cook issuing a statement that more honestly should have read "This is a multi billion dollar deal, damnit! It needs to happen so you WILL forgive him!"
stcredzero 10y ago
Despite what anyone says, America and Americans don't believe in 2nd chances. I have seen first-hand that America and Americans can believe in 2nd chances, particularly if the perpetrator is white and comes from a middle/upper-middle class background. Police and the DA are willing to soft-pedal the charges. The prosecutor is willing to plea-bargain away and otherwise chip away at the penalty. (Even giving away 1/2 year of probation, beyond the wishes of the victim.) I've seen first-hand that 2 counts of felony assault can be whittled down to 1 year of probation -- provided the assailant is white and can afford good lawyers. White lives and white dignity matter the most in the US -- even in California and the Bay Area. Perhaps especially so.
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  I'm not American, so I don't really know what it's like there, but is it a race issue, or a class issue? Would a well known/well off black person who can hire good lawyers be able to whittle down 2 counts of felony assault to a year of probation? Here in New Zealand, the son of the Maori King (a purely ceremonial and symbolic role for our native people), who was something like 3rd in line for the throne, got off a theft and drink driving conviction because he would be ineligible to hold the throne if convicted. He was eventually convicted after public outcry.
  - miller_joe 10y ago
    OJ Simpson
  - porpoisemonkey 10y ago
    There are two separate issues. One is the disproportionate attention minority races get from the police. It's not hard evidence but here's a CNN report discussing the profiling that wealthy blacks receive in the United States. http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-racial-profiling/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-... The second is the disproportionate sentencing for similar or identical crimes. Again without any hard data this seems to be mostly a class based issue. One commonly cited example of this is the differences in mandatory minimum sentences between crack cocaine and regular cocaine. Crack cocaine is often associated with lower classes due to being cheaper to acquire than powdered cocaine. Additionally there are significant differences between the legal representation that can be afforded at different levels of income. Coupled with issue 1 this creates a disparity in how the US justice system treats minorities. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-rac...
daveheq 10y ago
Actually they're also under the will of decades of law enforcement philosophy based on old opinions and facts. Example is when federal and state chiefs argue for keeping marijuana a Schedule 1 substance against modern scientific studies, though it could be argued they just don't want to lose jobs or spending.

bradleyankrom 10y ago

I don't think it's necessarily the will of the people that they are representing, unless you mean 'people' in the Citizens United sense.

helthanatos 10y ago

We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison. We need a harsher system that accurately punishes crime.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
While I agree with the downvoting of this comment for the primitive perspective, I do also agree with the sentiment. Prison time does very little to change people and makes them more likely to re-offend. What matters is repaying the "debt" to society. Hard to do when a year in prison can cost more to the taxpayer than a year at Harvard.
- ryanlol 10y ago
  >Prison time does very little to change people Probably most out-of-touch statement of the year.
  - gleenn 10y ago
    I'm assuming they meant change for the good, not just change.
  - rjbwork 10y ago
    I think he means in a positive manner.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    As in change people from being the kind of person that does things that get them into prison.
nostrebored 10y ago
People can downvote you all they want, but this has certainly worked well for Singapore.
- mahyarm 10y ago
  I wouldn't mind if your given a choice of 40 lashes vs. prison time. I would definitely take a temporary few days of pain over years or weeks of my life wasted in the psychological torture known as prison.
  - Unbeliever69 10y ago
    The time isn't the problem. It's living with a felony on your record that is a problem.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  And Iran cuts thieves hands off with band saw.[0] What's your point? Barbarism "works"? No thanks. [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9831727/Iran-unveils-finger-amputating-machine-for-use-on-thieves.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/98...
  - kazagistar 10y ago
    Incarceration as practiced in the USA is also barbarism.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    If you can't see that comparing welts on your butt for a week vs. lopping off a hand is hyperbolic, then I doubt that you're coming into this in good faith. Harsh punishments do work, when you apply them consistently and early on. While you may think that being caned is harsh, most people I've talked to would prefer to be caned over a month in prison. Singapore's use of the death penalty is a fairly good example. Kidnapping is a capitol offense -- consequently you see young kids walking around the Singapore alone and taking buses on their own.
winfred 10y ago
>We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison. Masochists all over the world support your cause.
- helthanatos 10y ago
  1) It's cheaper. 2) It's actually more humane if you think about it.

ladzoppelin 10y ago

This is complete nonsense. Money has influenced these policies and most "Americans" tune out the process.

MGMXI 10y ago
Agreed. @Unbeliever69 Don't flatter Americans with this being our "will". It's a select group of people deciding on policies and their oversights are ultimately permitted by the public's indifference towards the political process.
shkkmo 10y ago
I believe Unbeliever69 is referring the difficulties involved in finding jobs or housing once you have a criminal record. That isn't just 'policies', that is the result of the individual actions people take. There certainly are exceptions, but those exceptions tent to prove the rule.
Daishiman 10y ago
Ever heard any elected American politician running on a platform of shorter sentences, rehabilitation and reducing prison population?
- erichocean 10y ago
  > running on a platform of shorter sentences Trump? Oh, you meant criminal sentencing, not grammar. Got it.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I did hear of a guy like that once but it turns out I would be sexist if I didn't vote for his opponent. You see, it was her turn.
- Chathamization 10y ago
  A number of politicians have advocated that, particularly when it comes to non-violent drug offenses. Clinton, for example, is running on that platform: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/ https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-refor... Though I should say that I'm not sure shorter sentences across the board are what's needed. We definitely need shorter sentences for non-violent drug offenses, and shorter sentences for inmates who seem like they can be rehabilitated is a good idea. On the other hand, I infrequently read about cases in the news where some deeply disturbed individual commits a truly heinous crime, and then is back out in the general population after only 2 or 3 years. There are some people who really should be in for a longer time. I often look at sentencing through the lens of "how would I feel if this person lived in my neighborhood." Someone like Mumia Abu-Jamal is in for life, but I wouldn't be particularly bothered if he lived next door to me (or Bernie Madoff, sentenced to 150 years). Then there are people who only get a few years, but I wouldn't want them living anywhere near me.

koenigdavidmj 10y ago

The will of the people is delight at prisoners being anally raped. Sometimes the state needs to do something different.

smadge 10y ago
True it's absolutely disgusting that prison rape is a punchline. There's not even a setup to the joke, just "you'll get raped in prison."

slavik81 10y ago

On the plus side, it seems attitudes have been improving (PDF): https://opportunityagenda.org/files/field_file/2014.08.23-CriminalJusticeReport-FINAL_0.pdf https://opportunityagenda.org/files/field_file/2014.08.23-Cr...

tn13 10y ago

> We live in a sad country filled with sad, fearful, unforgiving people. Maybe a blanket statement, but one that I believe to be true. I have personally found American people to be very cheerful and forgiving too. Land of second opportunities! But people are super insecure. They are not willing to stand up for the rights of criminals no matter what the crime is. It makes politician's life far more easier.

michaelbuddy 10y ago

So I'm supposed to forgive the guy who raped my cousin and killed her friend? Am I supposed to feel like he paid his dues. Whatever imaginary criminal you are inventing is not the real criminals who destroy lives every day. And their punishment for their violence the trauma they cause victims their families and their selfishness of taking lives cannot be punished enough in so many cases. It's not the media that causes victims and victim families to live sad or fearful or hateful. Desiring punishment and retribution for crimes is very much a natural thing. We see it in the animal kingdom as well. Any personal forgiveness is up to the individual(s) affected. Many criminals get off easy in the justice system. Some of them should never get out. Some of them deserve the pain they unleashed on their victims but sadly get 3 hots and a cot for 50 years, never contributing anything to society for their entire life.

danharaj 10y ago
You don't have to forgive anyone. Getting the retribution you think is just and deserved means giving the state the power to inflict that retribution on anyone it wants. There are consequences to having the brutish government punish people on your behalf and they always come back to harm the weak and innocent. Justice systems don't operate to make people feel better or make the evil suffer.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > Getting the retribution you think is just and deserved means giving the state the power to inflict that retribution on anyone it wants. Not giving that authority to the State means that it is retained by the People. The whole point of a justice system is to give the State a monopoly on violence: in return for giving up their right to vendetta, the People expect that the State will be scrupulous and fair in its prosecution of criminals. Indeed, this is the foundation of the legitimacy of the State, and it is why a State which refuses to execute justice will eventually lose legitimacy in the eyes of its People.
Frondo 10y ago
Forgiveness is up to you. I'd prefer the criminal justice system focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I'd rather we try to make society safer than exact revenge: we all have different ideas of revenge, but a safer society ought to be pretty easy to agree on.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago

I completely agree. And considering forgiveness is such a core tenant of Christianity, it's surprising that people call the U.S. a Christian nation. Our use of capital punishment is also bizarre when you factor in the religious component. Or the utter lack of care for the poor. And I'm not saying religion should influence our laws, but I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc).

micaksica 10y ago
> I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc). While I have met many Christians in America that do live by their beliefs, I have found the majority of these self-professed "Christians" I have met are simply using the term as a tribal banner in which to wage a cultural war that enriches them and continues their evolutionary propagation at the expense of those that are not of the typical WASP voting bloc. The Christian doctrine of acceptance and tolerance appears long lost, and this same bigoted crowd often seems to be those that wonder why it is many people have turned to secularism. Those wishing extreme "punishment" on those we incarcerate -- and are supposed to rehabilitate -- are wishing to play the role of the God of the Old Testament, not follow the teachings of their messiah.
- sfrailsdev 10y ago
  Maybe, but Martin Luther King Jr. was a reverend, and I have friends who attend GLBT or African American Churches that I'd never call part of the religious right. And even within the right, there are lots of different types of people. I am not super informed about Christianity in America, but it strikes me as a topic more complex and nuanced then your words might suggest you believe, and as a group more varied then you seem to have experienced.
nsxwolf 10y ago
I am Christian that does not claim the US is a Christian nation for precisely the reason you describe - forgiveness simply isn't an American value. We value punishment, stigmatization, and maintaining their permanence via information technology. We only forgive when it's convenient or necessary - thus Apple's hypocrisy in hiring an abusive misogynist like Dr. Dre, with Tim Cook issuing a statement that more honestly should have read "This is a multi billion dollar deal, damnit! It needs to happen so you WILL forgive him!"

stcredzero 10y ago

Despite what anyone says, America and Americans don't believe in 2nd chances. I have seen first-hand that America and Americans can believe in 2nd chances, particularly if the perpetrator is white and comes from a middle/upper-middle class background. Police and the DA are willing to soft-pedal the charges. The prosecutor is willing to plea-bargain away and otherwise chip away at the penalty. (Even giving away 1/2 year of probation, beyond the wishes of the victim.) I've seen first-hand that 2 counts of felony assault can be whittled down to 1 year of probation -- provided the assailant is white and can afford good lawyers. White lives and white dignity matter the most in the US -- even in California and the Bay Area. Perhaps especially so.

toomanybeersies 10y ago
I'm not American, so I don't really know what it's like there, but is it a race issue, or a class issue? Would a well known/well off black person who can hire good lawyers be able to whittle down 2 counts of felony assault to a year of probation? Here in New Zealand, the son of the Maori King (a purely ceremonial and symbolic role for our native people), who was something like 3rd in line for the throne, got off a theft and drink driving conviction because he would be ineligible to hold the throne if convicted. He was eventually convicted after public outcry.
- miller_joe 10y ago
  OJ Simpson
- porpoisemonkey 10y ago
  There are two separate issues. One is the disproportionate attention minority races get from the police. It's not hard evidence but here's a CNN report discussing the profiling that wealthy blacks receive in the United States. http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-racial-profiling/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-... The second is the disproportionate sentencing for similar or identical crimes. Again without any hard data this seems to be mostly a class based issue. One commonly cited example of this is the differences in mandatory minimum sentences between crack cocaine and regular cocaine. Crack cocaine is often associated with lower classes due to being cheaper to acquire than powdered cocaine. Additionally there are significant differences between the legal representation that can be afforded at different levels of income. Coupled with issue 1 this creates a disparity in how the US justice system treats minorities. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-rac...

daveheq 10y ago

Actually they're also under the will of decades of law enforcement philosophy based on old opinions and facts. Example is when federal and state chiefs argue for keeping marijuana a Schedule 1 substance against modern scientific studies, though it could be argued they just don't want to lose jobs or spending.