16 ms·

Seymour Papert has died

820 points by j4mie 10y ago

Tomte 10y ago
Just yesterday I finished "Turtles, Termites and Traffic Jams" by Resnick who builds heavily upon Papert's work. Mindstorms is on my backlog. I have fond recollections about my first contact with Turtles. It didn't shape me or anything like that, but I'd like to take Logo out again and play with it. Is there a recommended modernish Logo (running on Windows), or should I simply go to Processing?
- RodgerTheGreat 10y ago
  Try UCBLogo (https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html) or NetLogo (https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/).
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    I was told in another thread [0] that NetLogo isn't really suitable for "turtle graphics" and is apparently for "actor based modelling". I certainly found the interface overwhelming. When I last used Logo it was in mswLogo [1]. There's also Lhogho [2], Python's turtle module [3] and FMSLogo [4] 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12149061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12149061 1: http://www.softronix.com/logo.html http://www.softronix.com/logo.html (not sure if this is the original site) 2: http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ 3: https://docs.python.org/3.0/library/turtle.html https://docs.python.org/3.0/library/turtle.html 4: http://fmslogo.sourceforge.net/ http://fmslogo.sourceforge.net/
- mcphage 10y ago
  > Just yesterday I finished "Turtles, Termites and Traffic Jams" Oh, that's a great book.
  - jkestner 10y ago
    Yes! A great read even if you don't have a CS degree. It helped me get the emergent behavior bug, the same way NewtonScript made OOP click for me. The descendents of his multi-turtle Logo variant, StarLogo, are still going, including online. http://web.mit.edu/mitstep/projects/starlogo-tng/learn.html http://web.mit.edu/mitstep/projects/starlogo-tng/learn.html http://www.slnova.org http://www.slnova.org
- chriswarbo 10y ago
  EToys is quite nice http://www.squeakland.org http://www.squeakland.org It's a Smalltalk environment extended with a drag-and-drop scripting system. All (literally, all) of the graphical objects can be used as turtles (they have a "pen", and methods for "forward", "left"/"right", etc.). The really nice part is that it's "turtles all the way down": the entire GUI (scripts, text, buttons, etc.) is made out of the same stuff as user-created objects; you can write scripts which tell other scripts how to move around; and write scripts to tell those scripts how to move around; and so on. It comes with a bunch of pre-built objects, including a musical keyboard, a paint program, etc. and there are projects like "physical etoys" for hooking in physical sensors and actuators, so you can make a physical turtle.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  Small Basic has a Turtle object: http://smallbasic.com/doc.aspx?o=Turtle http://smallbasic.com/doc.aspx?o=Turtle
- tjr 10y ago
  Also check out The Children's Machine. Some similar content to what's in Mindstorms, but it was written years later, based on further research. A favorite quote: [O]n my reckoning, the fraction of human knowledge that is in the [school] curriculum is well under a millionth and diminishing fast. I simply cannot escape from the question: Why that millionth in particular?
- e12e 10y ago
  In addition to what others have mentioned, Racket also comes with a turtle-like graphics module: https://docs.racket-lang.org/racket_turtle/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/racket_turtle/index.html
CaRDiaK 10y ago
"People laughed at Seymour Papert in the sixties when he talked about children using computers as instruments for learning and for enhancing creativity." - I'm glad he continued his work. My most fond memory of when I first saw a computer.. and it was running logo. I was amazed by all those keys! I would definitely not be here today if it were not for this gentleman. I got into trouble in school for throwing away the provided instructions and started to hack that turtle into writing my name the moment I realized I could control it. I never looked back from that day, I was 8 years old. RIP Seymour.
edtechdev 10y ago
You can find some of his work at: http://www.papert.org/ http://www.papert.org/ and more background info on him on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert
kylek 10y ago
I never had the opportunity to use Logo, but I think it's obvious how much influence Seymour had on our industry and many of our paths. RIP.
picklesman 10y ago
LogoWriter was my entry into programming. I started with the turtle in elementary school, and in early high school my mind was blown when I leaned about the "flip side", where you could use functions and script things. In grade 7 I used it to make an elaborate multi screen Sierra inspired game that took the better part of the year to make. What I would give to have a copy of it now... RIP. Thanks for Logo and everything else.
gfodor 10y ago
Of course, Logo was just a means to an end, something that was meant to be one example of many as to how to introduce children to the medium of computing. As is often the case the wider message was lost -- to me this was much like when englebart died and he was called "the inventor of the mouse." Mindstorms is a must read.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
panic 10y ago
2016 strikes again. :( Seymour Papert was "co-creator of Logo" in much the same way that Doug Engelbart was "creator of the mouse". Their ideas were bigger than something you can fit in a headline. Papert believed that computers had a unique potential to help us learn and think. Anyone interested in computers or education should check out his book Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- setpatchaddress 10y ago
  I want to emphasize the "or" in that last sentence -- everyone should read Mindstorms.
- unexistance 10y ago
  "to augment human intelligence"
joaorico 10y ago
"The fundamental fact about learning: Anything is easy if you can assimilate it to your collection of models. If you can't, anything can be painfully difficult." [0] Although Papert is most known for Logo, he did not believe learning how to program was specially good in itself. It is the fact that the computer allows the child to model almost everything (at almost no cost) that allowed that child to develop and fall in love with a topic, the same way he fell in love with gears at a very young age. In his own words [1]: "It did not occur to me that anyone could possibly take my statement to mean that learning to program would in itself have consequences for how children learn and think. [...] But encouraging programming as an activity meant to be good in itself is far removed, in its nature, from working at identifying ideas that have been disempowered and seeking ways to re-empower them." [0] Papert - "Mindstorms" in the Foreword: 'The Gears of My Childhood' [1] Papert - "What’s the big idea? Toward a pedagogy of idea power"
- joaorico 10y ago
  From the same Foreword: "A modern-day Montessori might propose, if convinced by my story, to create a gear set for children. Thus every child might have the experience I had. But to hope for this would be to miss the essence of the story. I fell in love with the gears. This is something that cannot be reduced to purely "cognitive" terms. Something very personal happened, and one cannot assume that it would be repeated for other children in exactly the same form. My thesis could be summarized as: What the gears cannot do the computer might. The computer is the Proteus of machines. Its essence is its universality, its power to simulate."
ontouchstart 10y ago
Seymour Papert and Paulo Freire Debate Technology and the Future of Schools https://youtu.be/4V-0KfBdWao https://youtu.be/4V-0KfBdWao
- neves 10y ago
  Wow, two of my heroes together! Sure it will be better than Batman Vs Superman...
ontouchstart 10y ago
https://www.c-span.org/video/?67583-1/technology-education https://www.c-span.org/video/?67583-1/technology-education Technology In Education The committee examined technological advances in education. OCTOBER 12, 1995 Alan Brown Superintendent Public Schools Chris Dede Professor George Mason University Jeffrey Joseph Vice President U.S. Chamber of Commerce->Domestic Policy Alan Kay Fellow Apple Computer->Learning Concepts Cheryl Lemke Associate Superintendent Illinois->Board of Education Edward McCracken President and CEO Silicon Graphics Deborah McGriff Senior Vice President Edison Project Robert W. Mendenhall Vice President IBM->K-12 Industry Division Seymour Papert Professor Massachusetts Institute of Technology->Technology David Shaw Chief Executive Officer Shaw Investment Company Pat Wright Vice President TCI Educational Technologies
- ontouchstart 10y ago
  This is a long 1995 congress hearing video that I doubt many people have time and patience to sit through. But if you fast forward to the debate between D.E. Shaw and Seymour Papert/Alan Kay, you will find out 20 years later, the hardware progress is almost exactly as Shaw had predicted, on the other hand, we are far from the vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    Do you have an approximate timestamp?
    - ontouchstart 10y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209538
    - ontouchstart 10y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209678
  - aidenn0 10y ago
agumonkey 10y ago
Anecdote: Logo was used in French 80s National "Plan Informatique Pour Tous" https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_informatique_pour_tous https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_informatique_pour_tous (Computing for all), running on Thomson MO5 terminals distributed in many schools. Kids (6-9yo I believe) would learn to "program" using it. For the younger ones it was mostly about moving that infamous turtle, and that was it. It was still something utterly magical, even though the lightpen bundled with the MO5 was also a big part of it.
- draven 10y ago
  I remember playing with logo on MO5. The teacher used a TO7. IIRC we managed to get some geometrical figures using loops, like eg a "square-y spiral."
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Yes, that's what I recall too. Most kids were confused by the relativity of orientation since left when facing down is right ... After that classes were about the word processor and paint program. Something I wish I could investigate; was the network infrastructure. I don't know if my school was special but there was a bit networked server that could communicate with other schools (we even had online contests). I also remember seeing its screen trashed. Teacher said "there's a virus.".
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Some screens http://archive.is/xKzo9 http://archive.is/xKzo9
- vmarsy 10y ago
  I remember using logo during elementary school a bit later (late 90s), the computer room was full of old computers, not sure if they were MO5, but the keyboard looks familiar. I loved it. I was so happy when, back home on windows 3.1, I could open my drawings saved on a floppy disk. A good memory is the day I found the Help page with instructions on how to draw a wireframe 3D sphere. This was my first successful introduction to the power of "RTFM".
brudgers 10y ago
Announcement on front page of the Logo Foundation: http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/ http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/
- sctb 10y ago
  Thanks, we updated the link from https://twitter.com/LogoFoundation/status/760057041687830528 https://twitter.com/LogoFoundation/status/760057041687830528.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - beefman 10y ago
    Better but not great because the new link is not specific to this story. This is a better link http://www.media.mit.edu/people/in-memory/papert http://www.media.mit.edu/people/in-memory/papert It was submitted but incorrectly marked as a dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12204756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12204756
    - dang 10y ago
      Thanks very much. We've changed to that from http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/ http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/.
richard_todd 10y ago
For many years, I completely associated Logo with "turtle graphics" -- like it was a toy for kids to learn programming ideas. I only realized a couple years ago that it's a pretty capable language. The best references I found are a 3-volume set that covers using Logo for symbolic computation, making compilers, a diff tool, etc. PDF/HTML at https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1-toc2.html https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1-toc2.html
- abecedarius 10y ago
  My favorite Logo-for-relative-grownups work is https://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics-Artificial-Intelligence/dp/0262510375 https://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics-Artificia... -- yes, with the same coauthor as SICP. It's about math more than CS, and it's really good: by the last chapter you're figuring out motion in general relativity. It has a spirit of DIY exploration unlike any other math book I'd seen at the time.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  Logo is essentially just Lisp without parenthesis. Everything is possible, and it's all self contained and defined in terms of itself! Leigh Klotz wrote a 6502 assembly language assembler in Logo for Terrapin Logo for the Apple ][ and C64, which you could use to extend Logo do to anything you wanted, like interfacing to hardware.
  - eggy 10y ago
    I've been playing with Lhogho - Logo compiler [1]. The creator has done some amazing things with it and other projects too. I had an OpenGL spinning pyramid up in 10 minutes and an EXE for windows and an executable for Linux too. Pretty cool, but it is not being developed any longer. It runs fine on my Win 10 box and Linux Ubuntu 14 box. I found it when looking into Logo because I was working with the modeling software NetLogo [2]. [1] http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ [2] https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/
wiz21 10y ago
So Long, and Thanks for All the Turtles
gbin 10y ago
Python has a "logo inspired" turtle in the standard lib: https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/turtle.html https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/turtle.html We played with it with my son and it brought back memories from the 80s when the French government made a big push on Logo in the schools.
- vram22 10y ago
  >Python has a "logo inspired" turtle in the standard lib Yes. Here is an example of its use, that I wrote a while ago: http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2016/01/simple-drawing-program-with-python.html?m=0 http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2016/01/simple-drawing-program-wit...
- daeken 10y ago
  Oh man, you absolutely made my day. I've been teaching my fiancee bits of Python for the past couple days (her first code ever!) and this library made it all make sense. It let her take all the little concepts I taught her, and put them together to make something cool. She just wrote a street with houses on it, generated by a simple for loop!
  - sn9 10y ago
    The freely available online book Think Python is a fantastic introduction to both CS and Python and includes a chapter on turtle graphics with some fun exercises.
    - coroxout 10y ago
      There's a Udacity mini-course with a fun section on Python turtle graphics, too. https://www.udacity.com/course/viewer#!/c-ud036/l-1004409226/m-1013388828 https://www.udacity.com/course/viewer#!/c-ud036/l-1004409226... (UD-036 Programming Foundations with Python, lesson 2A)
- schoen 10y ago
  Wow, nice! Thanks for mentioning it.
nekopa 10y ago
Actually, when you look at any kind of programming, it is: Turtles, turtles all the way down. RIP
wallflower 10y ago
RIP, Seymour Papert. Scratch is the spiritual successor to Logo. As Scratch becomes more and more popular, it has been sad to say that there is a tension between the spirit of Scratch and commercialization. Scratch is all about exploration and making mistakes and experiential learning. However, there is a deluge of companies who are trying to create curriculums for Scratch that fit into the traditional School lesson models (canned, cut and dry). Here are some of the better alternatives: Google has developed the CS First program which uses Scratch. The interesting thing about this program is that it tries to scale the problem of teaching CS by making it less necessary for the teacher to know CS. https://www.cs-first.com/ https://www.cs-first.com/ There is also a curriculum guide for Scratch. http://scratched.gse.harvard.edu/guide/ http://scratched.gse.harvard.edu/guide/
- sitkack 10y ago
  When we learned Logo, the teacher was learning right along with us. What a teacher can do, is encourage metacognition, so when a child either gets or not-gets something, they can organize it in their mind. I like scratch, but it seems so Bubble Gum. Logo on an Apple II had a beautiful austerity to it.
  - jhbadger 10y ago
    Logo doesn't get enough credit. It is more than just a system for turtle graphics, but a real programming language with a lot of similarity to Lisp. Brian Harvey at Berkeley used to be proponent of even using it as an alternative to Lisp for teaching functional programming to undergraduates.
  - wslh 10y ago
    And I think the best Logo implementation was on the TI 99/4A. It is called "TI Logo" and includes sprites. Full manual here: ftp://club100.org/programming/LOGO/TI%20LOGO%20(phm3109).pdf
- pfooti 10y ago
  While I'm a bit bummed about the general commercialization of some elements of Scratch, I think it's fair to say that there is an encouraging amount of work being done in parallel with Scratch that keeps us from living in a monoculture of blocks. As examples, the blockly [0] library makes it easier for devs to build blocks-based programming interfaces for a lot of systems. It's been used in App Inventor for building android apps [1], by some of the Code.org (and other) tutorials for hour of code, and excitingly there are some moves to build lego mindstorms programming environments in blockly too ([2] as well as a blog post from google that I can't find right now, ironically, stating they were working with lego on an official one) There's also snap [3], which started as a project at UCBerkeley to allow scratch users to build their own blocks (e.g., define functions, which was impossible in early versions of scratch), and is, excitingly, written in regular javascript rather than flash (scratch is still a flash app for the most part). There's some legacy notions in snap that make it not the easiest to use (it's all done on canvas elements, and some interface gestures don't work as well as their blockly counterparts, since blockly uses divs and css for blocks), but it's still great and free and open (and works on more devices). I'm sure there's other stuff out there I'm missing, including classic stuff (like the Boxer programming environment, of which I'm a huge fan), but Papert's legacy measured by the work and people has inspired directly and indirectly is enormous. 0: https://developers.google.com/blockly/ https://developers.google.com/blockly/ 1: http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/index-2.html http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/index-2.html 2: https://lab.open-roberta.org/ https://lab.open-roberta.org/ 3: http://snap.berkeley.edu/ http://snap.berkeley.edu/
ocschwar 10y ago
PU WAIT 7200 PD Thanks for your work, Mr. Papert
tel 10y ago
Black bar, please.
- ontouchstart 10y ago
  Definitely.
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    Thank you!
    - ontouchstart 10y ago
      I didn't do it. Just noticed it.
pfooti 10y ago
Wow, RIP - he was a big inspiration to me professionally both in terms of the tech he helped build and in terms of the learning theory of which he was a proponent. (I also work at the intersection of education, learning sciences, and technology). [0] is a great video from the early days of LOGO, and he's pushing notions of programming for all that felt new and revolutionary in the 2000s. Mindstorms [1] is a great book if you're interested in his ideas about learning. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 1: https://amzn.com/0465046746 https://amzn.com/0465046746
wiremine 10y ago
I very clearly remember using Logo in 1st grade over 30 years ago. Looking back, it was clearly what hooked me to get into CS. Thanks Dr. Papert!
tel 10y ago
If you haven't read Mindstorms yet and you have any interest at all in how learning, mathematics, and programming are interrelated then please take a moment to go buy it today. There's little risk that Papert's ideas will fail to last—they are already embedded in so much of how we think about programming—but reading that book helps to emphasize just how far we are away from the ideas he was able to see just by talking with people about how they learn. Truly, truly inspirational man. I'm sad he's now gone.
oulipo 10y ago
Seymour Papert was an inspiring and caring researcher, and he will inspire many generations to come. His work was truly groundbreaking, subtle and profound, and I encourage everyone to read some of his books, notably Mindstorm and Children's Machine https://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful-Ideas/dp/0465046746/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470065417&sr=8-1&keywords=mindstorm+book+papert https://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerfu... https://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Machine-Rethinking-School-Computer/dp/0465010636 https://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Machine-Rethinking-School-C...
davidf18 10y ago
He came to my high school to teach for the academic year when I was 16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Laboratory_High_School_(Urbana,_Illinois) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Laboratory_High_Sch... He was a very, very warm person that clearly loved children. I remember him juggling oranges (or balls?). I wanted to work with Papert and implemented LOGO with graphics on the university's computers when I was 16 using an instruction manual from Bolt, Beranek and Newman (now BBN Tech). I still remember showing it to him.
zalmoxes 10y ago
Anyone interested in educational technology should read Mindstorms and Powerful Ideas. Papert described how technology should be used in schools and also predicted most issues and trends with education today. Papert work is also present in most educational/programming toys we see today - Scratch, Kibo http://kinderlabrobotics.com/kibo/ http://kinderlabrobotics.com/kibo/, LittleBits, LEGO Mindstorms all owe their roots to Paperts ideas. http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/ http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/
- justincormack 10y ago
  Absolutely, Mindstorms is one of the best books about learning ever written. Everyone should read it. Buy it now!
xeropho 10y ago
my first memory of using a computer is Logo where we were asked to do anything. I usually gave very large numbers and got interesting geometric patterns on my screen ...exciting stuff for a 10 year old.
booleanbetrayal 10y ago
I'm an engineer at Pedago, and work on a product called Smartly (https://smart.ly https://smart.ly). Although the target audience differs a bit, Papert's work was the philosophical bedrock for the work we're doing. In fact, when the company was founded, it was agreed upon that it'd be best for all employees to read Mindstorms: Children, Computers, And Powerful Ideas. If you haven't read this book, and you are even the slightest bit interested in education and how we construct mental models, it's definitely worth the read. I only hope he would have approved of what we've tried to build! RIP, Seymour Papert.
reuven 10y ago
I had the honor of meeting Seymour Papert on a few occasions (there's no way that he would have remembered me), and coming away awestruck and inspired each time. I also read his books and papers, and did a PhD with one of his best-known students, and never failed to come away thorough amazed by his vision, his dedication, and his ability to execute on so much of that -- partly through great research, partly through great execution on his own, and partly through inspiring generations of students of all ages and backgrounds. Indeed, my PhD research was driven by my interest in pushing Papert's vision one step closer to reality. And my work training at companies around the world constantly tries to make things more constructionist, more exploratory, and thus better for my students. If you haven't yet read Mindstorms, you should. You might think that it's a book about using Logo to teach kids, but it's not. Rather, it's a book about how children think and learn, and about how to encourage them to think and learn. It's terribly sad that Papert has passed away, but his vision and ideas live on amount countless people who are better thinkers and educators as a result.
- jdcarter 10y ago
  I'll second the recommendation on "Mindstorms." The book is visionary and just as relevant today as when he wrote it. I teach programming and electronics to kids (just an hour a week) and my teaching is heavily influenced by Mindstorms to this day. In addition, my own first exposure to computers with with LOGO on an Apple II. Papert changed my life, and the enduring quality of his work will continue to change lives for years to come.
  - jonnycowboy 10y ago
    Do you have any details of what and how you teach the kids? I am interested in setting something similar up in our neighborhood.
    - jdcarter 10y ago
      I'm sorry, at the moment I don't have teaching materials in any presentable form. I tried Arduino-based projects, making parts of a 2D game in Swift+SpriteKit, fooling with Minecraft redstone, and worked through Google's blockly games. Arduino seemed to be click the best, because it involves a lot of working with your hands (both breadboard and soldering) and you can "see" your creation working in a way that you just don't get with pure-software teaching. At least for the ages I was working with (8-10 y/o) blinking a LED held more joy than putting a 2D sprite into a window. I thought about publishing a more formal project curriculum, but there's a ton of Arduino project books already on the market, so it didn't seem worth it. Instead I just pitch a couple ideas to the kids, see what they want to do, then we spend several sessions building that.
eggy 10y ago
I had just started learning NetLogo, which led me to Lhogho, a compiled Logo, and then references to Seymour Papert's book Mindstorms that piqued my interest. I'll have to give it a go seeing as how many people have spoken so highly of this book. Sad news go lose such a thinker.
NiftyFifty 10y ago
Seymore Butts wishes you all a very good wake and funeral.
ontouchstart 10y ago
Seymour Papert Tribute at IDC 2013 https://tltl.stanford.edu/papert_tribute https://tltl.stanford.edu/papert_tribute
philippeback 10y ago
RIP. Also check http://phratch.org http://phratch.org
japhyr 10y ago
I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s. I first learned about programming from my father, who worked at DEC during its prime. To this day I deeply appreciate him sharing his love of the field with me from ayoung age. My first computer-related memories are learning to program in BASIC on a kit computer we had in our unfinished basement. I loved learning in a cold basement cellar surrounded by pieces of electronic gear in a makeshit office. My second earliest memory about computers centers around learning Logo on an Apple II (I believe) in third grade. I remember exactly what Seymour describes: being shown the basics, and then being free to explore by making the turtle do what I wanted it to. I remember sketching designs in a notebook and then asking enough questions about angles and distances to be able to implement my designs. I think my love of programming comes from an equal mix of people like my father who I could learn from directly, and people like Seymour who created systems that made it possible to learn independently.
sgt101 10y ago
He said “the fundamental fact about learning: Anything is easy if you can assimilate it to your collection of models. If you can’t, anything can be painfully difficult.” This is very revealing about the actual nature of learning, human and machine, and it's something that the ML community has simply ignored.
japhyr 10y ago
I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s. I first learned about programming from my father, who worked at DEC during its prime. To this day I deeply appreciate him sharing his love of the field with me from ayoung age. My first computer-related memories are learning to program in BASIC on a kit computer we had in our unfinished basement. I loved learning in a cold basement cellar surrounded by pieces of electronic gear in a makeshift office. My second earliest memory about computers centers around learning Logo on an Apple II (I believe) in third grade. I remember exactly what Seymour describes: being shown the basics, and then being free to explore by making the turtle do what I wanted it to. I remember sketching designs in a notebook and then asking enough questions about angles and distances to be able to implement my designs. I think my love of programming comes from an equal mix of people like my father who I could learn from directly, and people like Seymour who created systems that made it possible to learn independently.
314 10y ago
As a child of the 80s logo was one of the first languages that I learned. Although the relative motion was difficult to understand, and functions seemed to be impossibly hard - they worked eventually. 15 years later when I encountered functional programming for the first time I remember the shock and awe that somebody had the foresight to plantvthose seeds so long in advance. Later still I became a teacher, and learning about constructivism for the first time I encountered Seymour's published body of work. So mindblowing. The passion and the vision inspired my career. RIP Seymour, you will be missed, but after what you have given to the world you will never be forgotten.
apricot 10y ago
As a math teacher with a background in computer science, Papert's work has influenced me tremendously, although I never got the chance to meet him. His spirit lives on in his books.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
yladiz 10y ago
This is the first time I've heard of Seymour, but it looks like he really tried to increase education around programming and computers, especially with younger kids/teenagers (e.g. Logo in Lego Windstorms, One Laptop Per Child), and for that I'm deeply respectful. Making computers and programming more accessible is really wonderful. RIP Seymour Papert.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
In 200x, when I was in 4th grade, my teacher said that that day, we would be learning some programming. We were strictly a Mac school, and Scratch wasn't as well known at the time, so the language and environment we learned was Terrapin Logo. There's nothing like looking at the screen and seeing something that you made come to life for the first time. And there's nothing quite like being given a problem that seems impossibly hard at first, cracking it, and seeing the result in front of you. It was a magical moment, and though I would not do any more work in logo (UCBLogo wouldn't compile for me), that sense of wonder and magic, and that amazement and the feeling of looking at something, and understanding the complexity that makes it work, and knowing that you designed it, built it, and made it work, that is why I program. For the sheer joy of it. Thank you Seymour, for everything.
- jkestner 10y ago
  You youths! I had a similar introduction to Logo, on an Apple ][ at a computer day camp in the summer of 198x. We programmers tend to love learning the shiny new languages, but it's thanks to the enduring idea behind this language that many of us acquired the love. I strive to build something as lasting. Papert on the turtle, children and the physical version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTd3N5Oj2jk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTd3N5Oj2jk
  - dopamean 10y ago
    I used Logo on an Apple in the early 90s. I dont recall what model it was though.
  - dewarrn1 10y ago
    Like you, I learned Logo on an Apple ][ in the '80s. Apart from some dabbling in between, I wouldn't pick up programming in a serious way until grad school. Despite the long gap, that early start made a huge difference for me, and I'll never forget the simple pleasures that Logo afforded me as a child.
- ZephyrP 10y ago
  Likewise, my introduction to computer programming came in the form of StarLogo (a now wildly changed Logo derivative) in the 6th grade while the 2004 election was winding up. Despite the many years it's been since I've used Logo, this news has hit really hit me with sadness for the loss of a personal icon combined with a rush of nostalgic memories of creating graphics and silly games with Logo, along with the fundamentals and features of a programming environment, presented in a way that would keep me thinking about computer programming for the next 12 years (and I'm sure the next 20). Many today trot out the Poignant Guide, "Learn You A ..." and related efforts as the future of computer education for young people. I say give them Logo: I was taught by a schoolmarm with no particular programming background in a public school with 20 other kids. I myself didn't have a computer at home but Logo showed me what I was missing by inserting itself into the curriculum of the "new digital economy": driving kids who would have never used a computer to be programmers. The examples and challenges were fun, deep and made writing toy programs a joy. To this day, Logo seems to crops where I least expect it: A clever t-refplace joke in the pioneering zine "Mondo 2000" (as well as ads for Terrapin), a Larry Wall interview and even my recent toy implementation of the inconvergent tree: http://zv.github.io/algorithmic-tree.html http://zv.github.io/algorithmic-tree.html use knowledge I first learned on Logo. Today, Seymour and Logo are titans, if only to me. `crtdo` a new turtle in his memory.
throw42 10y ago
My office was next door to Seymour's office at the Media Lab. This was before the motorcycle accident in Vietnam. I was a freshly arrived student from India. His main observation about India was about how the IITs were terrible for the country because they left such a profound debilitating effect on those who did not make it to those schools.
- throwaway2998 10y ago
  Interesting. Greetings from India . Could you elaborate on his thoughts on that ? I too sometimes feel like I've missed out on a good education. But I feel it's too late now to change that. :(
  - gohrt 10y ago
    My guess is that Papert believed that IIT curriculum (or similar) should be taught everywhere, not limited to the few seats in IIT.
    - gizmodo59 10y ago
      I'm not sure about this. Stanford/Harvard is much more than the curriculum.
      - josegonzalez 10y ago
        Based on what you are responding to, it sounds like you are saying those not at said schools should not learn what is in the curriculum.
        thomasfoster96 10y ago
        I don't think the comment meant that, rather that a lot of the success of those institutions in educating people comes from having better facilities, better teachers, better community, etc.
tomcam 10y ago
You can try LOGO in your browser with this Javascript-based interpreter by the inimitable Joshual Bell: http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/ http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/
- ontouchstart 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. I wrote a simple LOGO program to honor Seymour Papert. https://twitter.com/ontouchstart/status/760309863608160256 https://twitter.com/ontouchstart/status/760309863608160256
j0e1 10y ago
Logo was the first language that familiarized me with the fundamentals of programming and got me excited about computers back when I was in 4th grade in India, in the late 90s. It's amazing how a person's vision and hard work can have such far-reaching impact. I'm grateful for his life and work. Rest in Peace Seymour Papert.
drawkbox 10y ago
His central tenet could be useful in rebuilding the U.S. education systems more like Finland where it is project based, real-world based. "The central tenet of his Constructionist theory of learning is that people build knowledge most effectively when they are actively engaged in constructing things in the world." "you cannot think about thinking without thinking about thinking about something"
ontouchstart 10y ago
History of the original LOGO turtle (the actual robot): http://cyberneticzoo.com/cyberneticanimals/1969-the-logo-turtle-seymour-papert-marvin-minsky-et-al-american/ http://cyberneticzoo.com/cyberneticanimals/1969-the-logo-tur...
- justincormack 10y ago
  Turtles are older than that, 1950s.
mattkevan 10y ago
A sad day. My first programming experiences were with Logo, before I even realised that was what it was. In primary school we had a robot turtle attached to a BBC Micro with a long cable which trundled around the floor drawing wonky shapes. At the time it was one of the most amazing things I'd seen - and was probably similar to, if not exactly the same as this: http://www.classicacorn.freeuk.com/8bit_focus/logo/logo.html http://www.classicacorn.freeuk.com/8bit_focus/logo/logo.html Later, in secondary school, I remember amazing our teacher by getting the Acorn Archimedes we had to produce multicoloured spirograph-like patterns. Being able to type something - and then the computer actually going and doing it (or not) was both frustrating and fantastic, and left me with a lifelong interest in programming and learning new stuff. Thank you Seymour.
neves 10y ago
If you are an ACM member, you can download Papert's classic Mindstorm book here: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1095592&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFID=650941053&CFTOKEN=72086634&preflayout=flat http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1095592&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFI... (yes, the lego robot gets its name from this book)
bwldrbst 10y ago
Learning Logo on a Microbee in 1987 was my first introduction to computers. I remember being immensely excited when I figured out how to draw a circle.
mahmoodadv 10y ago
wow amazing http://greenlahore.blogspot.com/ http://greenlahore.blogspot.com/
nxzero 10y ago
New York Times coverage, "Seymour Papert, 88, Dies; Saw Education’s Future in Computers": http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-dies-saw-educations-future-in-computers.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-pape...
- cnojima 10y ago
  Truly a legend, will be sorely missed
DonHopkins 10y ago
Seymour Papert was a great philosopher, whose work on Constructionism has uplifted many children, inspired the OLPC project, and continues to have a huge positive influence on the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theo... Here is the source code to LLogo in MACLISP, which I stashed from the MIT-AI ITS system. It's a fascinating historical document, 12,480 lines of beautiful practical lisp code, defining where the rubber meets the road, with drivers for hardware like pots, plotters, robotic turtles, TV turtles, graphical displays, XGP laser printers, music devices, and lots of other interesting code and comments. http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp Here is a Logo Adventure game I wrote for Terrapin, the first program I ever sold, which they distributed with C64 Terrapin Logo, because they wanted a simple non-graphical game that showed off Logo's list processing capabilities: http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/logo/adventure.logo http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/logo/adventure.logo Seymour Papert greatly inspired me, and I applied his work on Constructionist Education to the open source version of SimCity for the OLPC. http://micropolisonline.com/static/documentation/HAR2009Transcript.html http://micropolisonline.com/static/documentation/HAR2009Tran...
- lerpa 10y ago
  Although his methods probably contributed a lot to popularization of computing, as a philosopher the mental model theory of knowledge has been demonstrated insufficient a long while ago, although it remained popular in the AI computer science field for much longer, the problems with that theory were known even during the hey-day of Papert's work. Just take a look at Hubert Dreyfus' work to better understand the issue.
  - bchjam 10y ago
    I don't think constructivism and embodied cognition are too far afield, they both have an emphasis on environmental interaction. That sort of intertwingedness goes along with the general thrust of Dreyfus' argument (+ here's a link to Dreyfus' essay Why Heideggerian AI failed http://cid.nada.kth.se/en/HeideggerianAI.pdf http://cid.nada.kth.se/en/HeideggerianAI.pdf)
mtokunaga 10y ago
I did not have a fortune to get to know the LOGO or even SMALLTALK languages. By the time I've heard about it, it is the C++ or even C, and all us "professionals" dismissed this. I've just read up on the LOGO language on the Wiki, and some of its fortes are based on its roots in functional (encouraging recursions over a set) and declarative style. These people were already thinking about many years ahead for me. I would imagine my career would have been more enriched if I have encountered this early on in my life.
ehudla 10y ago
Where I met Logo: 1984, Devotion School, Brookline, Massachusetts, Apple computers, Then at home: TI-99/4A. You?
pseud0r 10y ago
Sad day. I think Bret Victor is right in that Seymour Papert's ideas are not useful only in teaching children about computers. This essay inspired by Mindstorms is a great read http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/
ontouchstart 10y ago
NY Times : http://nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-dies-saw-educations-future-in-computers.html http://nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-d...
tudorw 10y ago
What an awesome contribution. I had a good chat with an educationalist about Logo and the hardware device that I experienced in the 70's with a pen that we programmed in primary school, we had a super progressive maths heavy headmaster, hey, maybe that explains something...anyway, a comment was that the more modern turtles made the pen inside the device less obvious and that this small change led to a diminished experience as the children did not get to see first hand the final act of creation, instead it came out of a 'magic box' that did something they maybe did not comprehend, these kind of subtle things show that inter-disciplinary work is super important.
smallbag 10y ago
I just installed Scratch and I find it awful but I am not a teenager. When a child realize that to simulate a small movement or scene you need to feed the computer with a lot of parameters he/she get bored. Fractals, like the Julia image, inspire us with deep thinking. What we want is to learn new concepts in such a way that the ratio power/(number of parameters) is very low. The logo idea is not about a turtle or a moving pen, is about the realization that you can draw complex images with a few parameters. I see loops as a form of parameters in a program. Snake moving is boring, we want to drive a drone. Virtual reality is a way of improving the way in which we feed parameters to the machine, another way is the machine learning about the programmer, completion of sentences, suggestions and predictions are a first step. A new logo is needed but one without turtles.
ideonexus 10y ago
One of my favorite Papert quotes from Mindstorms. I think it summarizes the potential of computers to revolutionize learning by empowering children to be autonomous explorers instead of learner-automatons. I hope one day our education systems will recognize this and flip the system, but it's hard to change culture: IN MOST contemporary educational situations where children come into contact with computers the computer is used to put children through their paces, to provide exercises of an appropriate level of difficulty, to provide feedback, and to dispense information. The computer programming the child. In the LOGO environment the relationship is reversed: The child, even at preschool ages, is in control: The child programs the computer. And in teaching the computer how to think, children embark on an exploration about how they themselves think. The experience can be heady: Thinking about thinking turns the child into an epistemologist, an experience not even shared by most adults.
kkylin 10y ago
Perceptrons remains one of my favorite books in many ways. Obviously the single-layer networks Minsky & Papert analyze are very primitive relative to today's deep neural networks, and the actual mathematical content may not be of direct use today. But the arguments were beautiful & insightful, and the exposition clear. For anyone interested in a mathematical understanding of computation in (artificial) neural networks, it's still not a bad place to start.
syk26 10y ago
I made an account today, just to comment on this news. Seymour Papert's work on Constructionism really struck a chord with me. I first learned about his work in college, and things like Logo really resonated with me - to point where I have now changed my career path from an engineer to one that is more education focused. I really hope people everywhere, and at least users on this site will learn more about his work and his importance.
edem 10y ago
This post might be competing for the "Most time spent on the front page" Award, right?

820 points by j4mie 10y ago

Tomte 10y ago

Just yesterday I finished "Turtles, Termites and Traffic Jams" by Resnick who builds heavily upon Papert's work. Mindstorms is on my backlog. I have fond recollections about my first contact with Turtles. It didn't shape me or anything like that, but I'd like to take Logo out again and play with it. Is there a recommended modernish Logo (running on Windows), or should I simply go to Processing?

RodgerTheGreat 10y ago
Try UCBLogo (https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html) or NetLogo (https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/).
- voltagex_ 10y ago
  I was told in another thread [0] that NetLogo isn't really suitable for "turtle graphics" and is apparently for "actor based modelling". I certainly found the interface overwhelming. When I last used Logo it was in mswLogo [1]. There's also Lhogho [2], Python's turtle module [3] and FMSLogo [4] 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12149061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12149061 1: http://www.softronix.com/logo.html http://www.softronix.com/logo.html (not sure if this is the original site) 2: http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ 3: https://docs.python.org/3.0/library/turtle.html https://docs.python.org/3.0/library/turtle.html 4: http://fmslogo.sourceforge.net/ http://fmslogo.sourceforge.net/
mcphage 10y ago
> Just yesterday I finished "Turtles, Termites and Traffic Jams" Oh, that's a great book.
- jkestner 10y ago
  Yes! A great read even if you don't have a CS degree. It helped me get the emergent behavior bug, the same way NewtonScript made OOP click for me. The descendents of his multi-turtle Logo variant, StarLogo, are still going, including online. http://web.mit.edu/mitstep/projects/starlogo-tng/learn.html http://web.mit.edu/mitstep/projects/starlogo-tng/learn.html http://www.slnova.org http://www.slnova.org
chriswarbo 10y ago
EToys is quite nice http://www.squeakland.org http://www.squeakland.org It's a Smalltalk environment extended with a drag-and-drop scripting system. All (literally, all) of the graphical objects can be used as turtles (they have a "pen", and methods for "forward", "left"/"right", etc.). The really nice part is that it's "turtles all the way down": the entire GUI (scripts, text, buttons, etc.) is made out of the same stuff as user-created objects; you can write scripts which tell other scripts how to move around; and write scripts to tell those scripts how to move around; and so on. It comes with a bunch of pre-built objects, including a musical keyboard, a paint program, etc. and there are projects like "physical etoys" for hooking in physical sensors and actuators, so you can make a physical turtle.
WorldMaker 10y ago
Small Basic has a Turtle object: http://smallbasic.com/doc.aspx?o=Turtle http://smallbasic.com/doc.aspx?o=Turtle
tjr 10y ago
Also check out The Children's Machine. Some similar content to what's in Mindstorms, but it was written years later, based on further research. A favorite quote: [O]n my reckoning, the fraction of human knowledge that is in the [school] curriculum is well under a millionth and diminishing fast. I simply cannot escape from the question: Why that millionth in particular?
e12e 10y ago
In addition to what others have mentioned, Racket also comes with a turtle-like graphics module: https://docs.racket-lang.org/racket_turtle/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/racket_turtle/index.html

CaRDiaK 10y ago

"People laughed at Seymour Papert in the sixties when he talked about children using computers as instruments for learning and for enhancing creativity." - I'm glad he continued his work. My most fond memory of when I first saw a computer.. and it was running logo. I was amazed by all those keys! I would definitely not be here today if it were not for this gentleman. I got into trouble in school for throwing away the provided instructions and started to hack that turtle into writing my name the moment I realized I could control it. I never looked back from that day, I was 8 years old. RIP Seymour.

edtechdev 10y ago

You can find some of his work at: http://www.papert.org/ http://www.papert.org/ and more background info on him on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert

kylek 10y ago

I never had the opportunity to use Logo, but I think it's obvious how much influence Seymour had on our industry and many of our paths. RIP.

picklesman 10y ago

LogoWriter was my entry into programming. I started with the turtle in elementary school, and in early high school my mind was blown when I leaned about the "flip side", where you could use functions and script things. In grade 7 I used it to make an elaborate multi screen Sierra inspired game that took the better part of the year to make. What I would give to have a copy of it now... RIP. Thanks for Logo and everything else.

gfodor 10y ago

Of course, Logo was just a means to an end, something that was meant to be one example of many as to how to introduce children to the medium of computing. As is often the case the wider message was lost -- to me this was much like when englebart died and he was called "the inventor of the mouse." Mindstorms is a must read.

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panic 10y ago

2016 strikes again. :( Seymour Papert was "co-creator of Logo" in much the same way that Doug Engelbart was "creator of the mouse". Their ideas were bigger than something you can fit in a headline. Papert believed that computers had a unique potential to help us learn and think. Anyone interested in computers or education should check out his book Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas.

deleted 10y ago
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setpatchaddress 10y ago
I want to emphasize the "or" in that last sentence -- everyone should read Mindstorms.
unexistance 10y ago
"to augment human intelligence"

joaorico 10y ago

"The fundamental fact about learning: Anything is easy if you can assimilate it to your collection of models. If you can't, anything can be painfully difficult." [0] Although Papert is most known for Logo, he did not believe learning how to program was specially good in itself. It is the fact that the computer allows the child to model almost everything (at almost no cost) that allowed that child to develop and fall in love with a topic, the same way he fell in love with gears at a very young age. In his own words [1]: "It did not occur to me that anyone could possibly take my statement to mean that learning to program would in itself have consequences for how children learn and think. [...] But encouraging programming as an activity meant to be good in itself is far removed, in its nature, from working at identifying ideas that have been disempowered and seeking ways to re-empower them." [0] Papert - "Mindstorms" in the Foreword: 'The Gears of My Childhood' [1] Papert - "What’s the big idea? Toward a pedagogy of idea power"

joaorico 10y ago
From the same Foreword: "A modern-day Montessori might propose, if convinced by my story, to create a gear set for children. Thus every child might have the experience I had. But to hope for this would be to miss the essence of the story. I fell in love with the gears. This is something that cannot be reduced to purely "cognitive" terms. Something very personal happened, and one cannot assume that it would be repeated for other children in exactly the same form. My thesis could be summarized as: What the gears cannot do the computer might. The computer is the Proteus of machines. Its essence is its universality, its power to simulate."

ontouchstart 10y ago

Seymour Papert and Paulo Freire Debate Technology and the Future of Schools https://youtu.be/4V-0KfBdWao https://youtu.be/4V-0KfBdWao

neves 10y ago
Wow, two of my heroes together! Sure it will be better than Batman Vs Superman...

ontouchstart 10y ago

https://www.c-span.org/video/?67583-1/technology-education https://www.c-span.org/video/?67583-1/technology-education Technology In Education The committee examined technological advances in education. OCTOBER 12, 1995 Alan Brown Superintendent Public Schools Chris Dede Professor George Mason University Jeffrey Joseph Vice President U.S. Chamber of Commerce->Domestic Policy Alan Kay Fellow Apple Computer->Learning Concepts Cheryl Lemke Associate Superintendent Illinois->Board of Education Edward McCracken President and CEO Silicon Graphics Deborah McGriff Senior Vice President Edison Project Robert W. Mendenhall Vice President IBM->K-12 Industry Division Seymour Papert Professor Massachusetts Institute of Technology->Technology David Shaw Chief Executive Officer Shaw Investment Company Pat Wright Vice President TCI Educational Technologies

ontouchstart 10y ago
This is a long 1995 congress hearing video that I doubt many people have time and patience to sit through. But if you fast forward to the debate between D.E. Shaw and Seymour Papert/Alan Kay, you will find out 20 years later, the hardware progress is almost exactly as Shaw had predicted, on the other hand, we are far from the vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay.
- aidenn0 10y ago
  Do you have an approximate timestamp?
  - ontouchstart 10y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209538
  - ontouchstart 10y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12209678
- aidenn0 10y ago

agumonkey 10y ago

Anecdote: Logo was used in French 80s National "Plan Informatique Pour Tous" https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_informatique_pour_tous https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_informatique_pour_tous (Computing for all), running on Thomson MO5 terminals distributed in many schools. Kids (6-9yo I believe) would learn to "program" using it. For the younger ones it was mostly about moving that infamous turtle, and that was it. It was still something utterly magical, even though the lightpen bundled with the MO5 was also a big part of it.

draven 10y ago
I remember playing with logo on MO5. The teacher used a TO7. IIRC we managed to get some geometrical figures using loops, like eg a "square-y spiral."
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Yes, that's what I recall too. Most kids were confused by the relativity of orientation since left when facing down is right ... After that classes were about the word processor and paint program. Something I wish I could investigate; was the network infrastructure. I don't know if my school was special but there was a bit networked server that could communicate with other schools (we even had online contests). I also remember seeing its screen trashed. Teacher said "there's a virus.".
agumonkey 10y ago
Some screens http://archive.is/xKzo9 http://archive.is/xKzo9
vmarsy 10y ago
I remember using logo during elementary school a bit later (late 90s), the computer room was full of old computers, not sure if they were MO5, but the keyboard looks familiar. I loved it. I was so happy when, back home on windows 3.1, I could open my drawings saved on a floppy disk. A good memory is the day I found the Help page with instructions on how to draw a wireframe 3D sphere. This was my first successful introduction to the power of "RTFM".

brudgers 10y ago

Announcement on front page of the Logo Foundation: http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/ http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/

sctb 10y ago
Thanks, we updated the link from https://twitter.com/LogoFoundation/status/760057041687830528 https://twitter.com/LogoFoundation/status/760057041687830528.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- beefman 10y ago
  Better but not great because the new link is not specific to this story. This is a better link http://www.media.mit.edu/people/in-memory/papert http://www.media.mit.edu/people/in-memory/papert It was submitted but incorrectly marked as a dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12204756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12204756
  - dang 10y ago
    Thanks very much. We've changed to that from http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/ http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/.

richard_todd 10y ago

For many years, I completely associated Logo with "turtle graphics" -- like it was a toy for kids to learn programming ideas. I only realized a couple years ago that it's a pretty capable language. The best references I found are a 3-volume set that covers using Logo for symbolic computation, making compilers, a diff tool, etc. PDF/HTML at https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1-toc2.html https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1-toc2.html

abecedarius 10y ago
My favorite Logo-for-relative-grownups work is https://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics-Artificial-Intelligence/dp/0262510375 https://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics-Artificia... -- yes, with the same coauthor as SICP. It's about math more than CS, and it's really good: by the last chapter you're figuring out motion in general relativity. It has a spirit of DIY exploration unlike any other math book I'd seen at the time.
DonHopkins 10y ago
Logo is essentially just Lisp without parenthesis. Everything is possible, and it's all self contained and defined in terms of itself! Leigh Klotz wrote a 6502 assembly language assembler in Logo for Terrapin Logo for the Apple ][ and C64, which you could use to extend Logo do to anything you wanted, like interfacing to hardware.
- eggy 10y ago
  I've been playing with Lhogho - Logo compiler [1]. The creator has done some amazing things with it and other projects too. I had an OpenGL spinning pyramid up in 10 minutes and an EXE for windows and an executable for Linux too. Pretty cool, but it is not being developed any longer. It runs fine on my Win 10 box and Linux Ubuntu 14 box. I found it when looking into Logo because I was working with the modeling software NetLogo [2]. [1] http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ http://lhogho.sourceforge.net/ [2] https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/

wiz21 10y ago

So Long, and Thanks for All the Turtles

gbin 10y ago

Python has a "logo inspired" turtle in the standard lib: https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/turtle.html https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/turtle.html We played with it with my son and it brought back memories from the 80s when the French government made a big push on Logo in the schools.

vram22 10y ago
>Python has a "logo inspired" turtle in the standard lib Yes. Here is an example of its use, that I wrote a while ago: http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2016/01/simple-drawing-program-with-python.html?m=0 http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2016/01/simple-drawing-program-wit...
daeken 10y ago
Oh man, you absolutely made my day. I've been teaching my fiancee bits of Python for the past couple days (her first code ever!) and this library made it all make sense. It let her take all the little concepts I taught her, and put them together to make something cool. She just wrote a street with houses on it, generated by a simple for loop!
- sn9 10y ago
  The freely available online book Think Python is a fantastic introduction to both CS and Python and includes a chapter on turtle graphics with some fun exercises.
  - coroxout 10y ago
    There's a Udacity mini-course with a fun section on Python turtle graphics, too. https://www.udacity.com/course/viewer#!/c-ud036/l-1004409226/m-1013388828 https://www.udacity.com/course/viewer#!/c-ud036/l-1004409226... (UD-036 Programming Foundations with Python, lesson 2A)
schoen 10y ago
Wow, nice! Thanks for mentioning it.

nekopa 10y ago

Actually, when you look at any kind of programming, it is: Turtles, turtles all the way down. RIP

wallflower 10y ago

RIP, Seymour Papert. Scratch is the spiritual successor to Logo. As Scratch becomes more and more popular, it has been sad to say that there is a tension between the spirit of Scratch and commercialization. Scratch is all about exploration and making mistakes and experiential learning. However, there is a deluge of companies who are trying to create curriculums for Scratch that fit into the traditional School lesson models (canned, cut and dry). Here are some of the better alternatives: Google has developed the CS First program which uses Scratch. The interesting thing about this program is that it tries to scale the problem of teaching CS by making it less necessary for the teacher to know CS. https://www.cs-first.com/ https://www.cs-first.com/ There is also a curriculum guide for Scratch. http://scratched.gse.harvard.edu/guide/ http://scratched.gse.harvard.edu/guide/

sitkack 10y ago
When we learned Logo, the teacher was learning right along with us. What a teacher can do, is encourage metacognition, so when a child either gets or not-gets something, they can organize it in their mind. I like scratch, but it seems so Bubble Gum. Logo on an Apple II had a beautiful austerity to it.
- jhbadger 10y ago
  Logo doesn't get enough credit. It is more than just a system for turtle graphics, but a real programming language with a lot of similarity to Lisp. Brian Harvey at Berkeley used to be proponent of even using it as an alternative to Lisp for teaching functional programming to undergraduates.
- wslh 10y ago
  And I think the best Logo implementation was on the TI 99/4A. It is called "TI Logo" and includes sprites. Full manual here: ftp://club100.org/programming/LOGO/TI%20LOGO%20(phm3109).pdf
pfooti 10y ago
While I'm a bit bummed about the general commercialization of some elements of Scratch, I think it's fair to say that there is an encouraging amount of work being done in parallel with Scratch that keeps us from living in a monoculture of blocks. As examples, the blockly [0] library makes it easier for devs to build blocks-based programming interfaces for a lot of systems. It's been used in App Inventor for building android apps [1], by some of the Code.org (and other) tutorials for hour of code, and excitingly there are some moves to build lego mindstorms programming environments in blockly too ([2] as well as a blog post from google that I can't find right now, ironically, stating they were working with lego on an official one) There's also snap [3], which started as a project at UCBerkeley to allow scratch users to build their own blocks (e.g., define functions, which was impossible in early versions of scratch), and is, excitingly, written in regular javascript rather than flash (scratch is still a flash app for the most part). There's some legacy notions in snap that make it not the easiest to use (it's all done on canvas elements, and some interface gestures don't work as well as their blockly counterparts, since blockly uses divs and css for blocks), but it's still great and free and open (and works on more devices). I'm sure there's other stuff out there I'm missing, including classic stuff (like the Boxer programming environment, of which I'm a huge fan), but Papert's legacy measured by the work and people has inspired directly and indirectly is enormous. 0: https://developers.google.com/blockly/ https://developers.google.com/blockly/ 1: http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/index-2.html http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/index-2.html 2: https://lab.open-roberta.org/ https://lab.open-roberta.org/ 3: http://snap.berkeley.edu/ http://snap.berkeley.edu/

ocschwar 10y ago

PU WAIT 7200 PD Thanks for your work, Mr. Papert

tel 10y ago

Black bar, please.

ontouchstart 10y ago
Definitely.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  Thank you!
  - ontouchstart 10y ago
    I didn't do it. Just noticed it.

pfooti 10y ago

Wow, RIP - he was a big inspiration to me professionally both in terms of the tech he helped build and in terms of the learning theory of which he was a proponent. (I also work at the intersection of education, learning sciences, and technology). [0] is a great video from the early days of LOGO, and he's pushing notions of programming for all that felt new and revolutionary in the 2000s. Mindstorms [1] is a great book if you're interested in his ideas about learning. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 1: https://amzn.com/0465046746 https://amzn.com/0465046746

wiremine 10y ago

I very clearly remember using Logo in 1st grade over 30 years ago. Looking back, it was clearly what hooked me to get into CS. Thanks Dr. Papert!

tel 10y ago

If you haven't read Mindstorms yet and you have any interest at all in how learning, mathematics, and programming are interrelated then please take a moment to go buy it today. There's little risk that Papert's ideas will fail to last—they are already embedded in so much of how we think about programming—but reading that book helps to emphasize just how far we are away from the ideas he was able to see just by talking with people about how they learn. Truly, truly inspirational man. I'm sad he's now gone.

oulipo 10y ago

Seymour Papert was an inspiring and caring researcher, and he will inspire many generations to come. His work was truly groundbreaking, subtle and profound, and I encourage everyone to read some of his books, notably Mindstorm and Children's Machine https://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful-Ideas/dp/0465046746/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470065417&sr=8-1&keywords=mindstorm+book+papert https://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerfu... https://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Machine-Rethinking-School-Computer/dp/0465010636 https://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Machine-Rethinking-School-C...

davidf18 10y ago

He came to my high school to teach for the academic year when I was 16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Laboratory_High_School_(Urbana,_Illinois) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Laboratory_High_Sch... He was a very, very warm person that clearly loved children. I remember him juggling oranges (or balls?). I wanted to work with Papert and implemented LOGO with graphics on the university's computers when I was 16 using an instruction manual from Bolt, Beranek and Newman (now BBN Tech). I still remember showing it to him.

zalmoxes 10y ago

Anyone interested in educational technology should read Mindstorms and Powerful Ideas. Papert described how technology should be used in schools and also predicted most issues and trends with education today. Papert work is also present in most educational/programming toys we see today - Scratch, Kibo http://kinderlabrobotics.com/kibo/ http://kinderlabrobotics.com/kibo/, LittleBits, LEGO Mindstorms all owe their roots to Paperts ideas. http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/ http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/

justincormack 10y ago
Absolutely, Mindstorms is one of the best books about learning ever written. Everyone should read it. Buy it now!

xeropho 10y ago

my first memory of using a computer is Logo where we were asked to do anything. I usually gave very large numbers and got interesting geometric patterns on my screen ...exciting stuff for a 10 year old.

booleanbetrayal 10y ago

I'm an engineer at Pedago, and work on a product called Smartly (https://smart.ly https://smart.ly). Although the target audience differs a bit, Papert's work was the philosophical bedrock for the work we're doing. In fact, when the company was founded, it was agreed upon that it'd be best for all employees to read Mindstorms: Children, Computers, And Powerful Ideas. If you haven't read this book, and you are even the slightest bit interested in education and how we construct mental models, it's definitely worth the read. I only hope he would have approved of what we've tried to build! RIP, Seymour Papert.

reuven 10y ago

I had the honor of meeting Seymour Papert on a few occasions (there's no way that he would have remembered me), and coming away awestruck and inspired each time. I also read his books and papers, and did a PhD with one of his best-known students, and never failed to come away thorough amazed by his vision, his dedication, and his ability to execute on so much of that -- partly through great research, partly through great execution on his own, and partly through inspiring generations of students of all ages and backgrounds. Indeed, my PhD research was driven by my interest in pushing Papert's vision one step closer to reality. And my work training at companies around the world constantly tries to make things more constructionist, more exploratory, and thus better for my students. If you haven't yet read Mindstorms, you should. You might think that it's a book about using Logo to teach kids, but it's not. Rather, it's a book about how children think and learn, and about how to encourage them to think and learn. It's terribly sad that Papert has passed away, but his vision and ideas live on amount countless people who are better thinkers and educators as a result.

jdcarter 10y ago
I'll second the recommendation on "Mindstorms." The book is visionary and just as relevant today as when he wrote it. I teach programming and electronics to kids (just an hour a week) and my teaching is heavily influenced by Mindstorms to this day. In addition, my own first exposure to computers with with LOGO on an Apple II. Papert changed my life, and the enduring quality of his work will continue to change lives for years to come.
- jonnycowboy 10y ago
  Do you have any details of what and how you teach the kids? I am interested in setting something similar up in our neighborhood.
  - jdcarter 10y ago
    I'm sorry, at the moment I don't have teaching materials in any presentable form. I tried Arduino-based projects, making parts of a 2D game in Swift+SpriteKit, fooling with Minecraft redstone, and worked through Google's blockly games. Arduino seemed to be click the best, because it involves a lot of working with your hands (both breadboard and soldering) and you can "see" your creation working in a way that you just don't get with pure-software teaching. At least for the ages I was working with (8-10 y/o) blinking a LED held more joy than putting a 2D sprite into a window. I thought about publishing a more formal project curriculum, but there's a ton of Arduino project books already on the market, so it didn't seem worth it. Instead I just pitch a couple ideas to the kids, see what they want to do, then we spend several sessions building that.

eggy 10y ago

I had just started learning NetLogo, which led me to Lhogho, a compiled Logo, and then references to Seymour Papert's book Mindstorms that piqued my interest. I'll have to give it a go seeing as how many people have spoken so highly of this book. Sad news go lose such a thinker.

NiftyFifty 10y ago

Seymore Butts wishes you all a very good wake and funeral.

ontouchstart 10y ago

Seymour Papert Tribute at IDC 2013 https://tltl.stanford.edu/papert_tribute https://tltl.stanford.edu/papert_tribute

philippeback 10y ago

RIP. Also check http://phratch.org http://phratch.org

japhyr 10y ago

I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s. I first learned about programming from my father, who worked at DEC during its prime. To this day I deeply appreciate him sharing his love of the field with me from ayoung age. My first computer-related memories are learning to program in BASIC on a kit computer we had in our unfinished basement. I loved learning in a cold basement cellar surrounded by pieces of electronic gear in a makeshit office. My second earliest memory about computers centers around learning Logo on an Apple II (I believe) in third grade. I remember exactly what Seymour describes: being shown the basics, and then being free to explore by making the turtle do what I wanted it to. I remember sketching designs in a notebook and then asking enough questions about angles and distances to be able to implement my designs. I think my love of programming comes from an equal mix of people like my father who I could learn from directly, and people like Seymour who created systems that made it possible to learn independently.

sgt101 10y ago

He said “the fundamental fact about learning: Anything is easy if you can assimilate it to your collection of models. If you can’t, anything can be painfully difficult.” This is very revealing about the actual nature of learning, human and machine, and it's something that the ML community has simply ignored.

japhyr 10y ago

I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s. I first learned about programming from my father, who worked at DEC during its prime. To this day I deeply appreciate him sharing his love of the field with me from ayoung age. My first computer-related memories are learning to program in BASIC on a kit computer we had in our unfinished basement. I loved learning in a cold basement cellar surrounded by pieces of electronic gear in a makeshift office. My second earliest memory about computers centers around learning Logo on an Apple II (I believe) in third grade. I remember exactly what Seymour describes: being shown the basics, and then being free to explore by making the turtle do what I wanted it to. I remember sketching designs in a notebook and then asking enough questions about angles and distances to be able to implement my designs. I think my love of programming comes from an equal mix of people like my father who I could learn from directly, and people like Seymour who created systems that made it possible to learn independently.

314 10y ago

As a child of the 80s logo was one of the first languages that I learned. Although the relative motion was difficult to understand, and functions seemed to be impossibly hard - they worked eventually. 15 years later when I encountered functional programming for the first time I remember the shock and awe that somebody had the foresight to plantvthose seeds so long in advance. Later still I became a teacher, and learning about constructivism for the first time I encountered Seymour's published body of work. So mindblowing. The passion and the vision inspired my career. RIP Seymour, you will be missed, but after what you have given to the world you will never be forgotten.

apricot 10y ago

As a math teacher with a background in computer science, Papert's work has influenced me tremendously, although I never got the chance to meet him. His spirit lives on in his books.

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yladiz 10y ago

This is the first time I've heard of Seymour, but it looks like he really tried to increase education around programming and computers, especially with younger kids/teenagers (e.g. Logo in Lego Windstorms, One Laptop Per Child), and for that I'm deeply respectful. Making computers and programming more accessible is really wonderful. RIP Seymour Papert.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

In 200x, when I was in 4th grade, my teacher said that that day, we would be learning some programming. We were strictly a Mac school, and Scratch wasn't as well known at the time, so the language and environment we learned was Terrapin Logo. There's nothing like looking at the screen and seeing something that you made come to life for the first time. And there's nothing quite like being given a problem that seems impossibly hard at first, cracking it, and seeing the result in front of you. It was a magical moment, and though I would not do any more work in logo (UCBLogo wouldn't compile for me), that sense of wonder and magic, and that amazement and the feeling of looking at something, and understanding the complexity that makes it work, and knowing that you designed it, built it, and made it work, that is why I program. For the sheer joy of it. Thank you Seymour, for everything.

jkestner 10y ago
You youths! I had a similar introduction to Logo, on an Apple ][ at a computer day camp in the summer of 198x. We programmers tend to love learning the shiny new languages, but it's thanks to the enduring idea behind this language that many of us acquired the love. I strive to build something as lasting. Papert on the turtle, children and the physical version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTd3N5Oj2jk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTd3N5Oj2jk
- dopamean 10y ago
  I used Logo on an Apple in the early 90s. I dont recall what model it was though.
- dewarrn1 10y ago
  Like you, I learned Logo on an Apple ][ in the '80s. Apart from some dabbling in between, I wouldn't pick up programming in a serious way until grad school. Despite the long gap, that early start made a huge difference for me, and I'll never forget the simple pleasures that Logo afforded me as a child.
ZephyrP 10y ago
Likewise, my introduction to computer programming came in the form of StarLogo (a now wildly changed Logo derivative) in the 6th grade while the 2004 election was winding up. Despite the many years it's been since I've used Logo, this news has hit really hit me with sadness for the loss of a personal icon combined with a rush of nostalgic memories of creating graphics and silly games with Logo, along with the fundamentals and features of a programming environment, presented in a way that would keep me thinking about computer programming for the next 12 years (and I'm sure the next 20). Many today trot out the Poignant Guide, "Learn You A ..." and related efforts as the future of computer education for young people. I say give them Logo: I was taught by a schoolmarm with no particular programming background in a public school with 20 other kids. I myself didn't have a computer at home but Logo showed me what I was missing by inserting itself into the curriculum of the "new digital economy": driving kids who would have never used a computer to be programmers. The examples and challenges were fun, deep and made writing toy programs a joy. To this day, Logo seems to crops where I least expect it: A clever t-refplace joke in the pioneering zine "Mondo 2000" (as well as ads for Terrapin), a Larry Wall interview and even my recent toy implementation of the inconvergent tree: http://zv.github.io/algorithmic-tree.html http://zv.github.io/algorithmic-tree.html use knowledge I first learned on Logo. Today, Seymour and Logo are titans, if only to me. `crtdo` a new turtle in his memory.

throw42 10y ago

My office was next door to Seymour's office at the Media Lab. This was before the motorcycle accident in Vietnam. I was a freshly arrived student from India. His main observation about India was about how the IITs were terrible for the country because they left such a profound debilitating effect on those who did not make it to those schools.

throwaway2998 10y ago
Interesting. Greetings from India . Could you elaborate on his thoughts on that ? I too sometimes feel like I've missed out on a good education. But I feel it's too late now to change that. :(
- gohrt 10y ago
  My guess is that Papert believed that IIT curriculum (or similar) should be taught everywhere, not limited to the few seats in IIT.
  - gizmodo59 10y ago
    I'm not sure about this. Stanford/Harvard is much more than the curriculum.
    - josegonzalez 10y ago
      Based on what you are responding to, it sounds like you are saying those not at said schools should not learn what is in the curriculum.
      - thomasfoster96 10y ago
        I don't think the comment meant that, rather that a lot of the success of those institutions in educating people comes from having better facilities, better teachers, better community, etc.

tomcam 10y ago

You can try LOGO in your browser with this Javascript-based interpreter by the inimitable Joshual Bell: http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/ http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/

ontouchstart 10y ago
Thanks for the link. I wrote a simple LOGO program to honor Seymour Papert. https://twitter.com/ontouchstart/status/760309863608160256 https://twitter.com/ontouchstart/status/760309863608160256

j0e1 10y ago

Logo was the first language that familiarized me with the fundamentals of programming and got me excited about computers back when I was in 4th grade in India, in the late 90s. It's amazing how a person's vision and hard work can have such far-reaching impact. I'm grateful for his life and work. Rest in Peace Seymour Papert.

drawkbox 10y ago

His central tenet could be useful in rebuilding the U.S. education systems more like Finland where it is project based, real-world based. "The central tenet of his Constructionist theory of learning is that people build knowledge most effectively when they are actively engaged in constructing things in the world." "you cannot think about thinking without thinking about thinking about something"

ontouchstart 10y ago

History of the original LOGO turtle (the actual robot): http://cyberneticzoo.com/cyberneticanimals/1969-the-logo-turtle-seymour-papert-marvin-minsky-et-al-american/ http://cyberneticzoo.com/cyberneticanimals/1969-the-logo-tur...

justincormack 10y ago
Turtles are older than that, 1950s.

mattkevan 10y ago

A sad day. My first programming experiences were with Logo, before I even realised that was what it was. In primary school we had a robot turtle attached to a BBC Micro with a long cable which trundled around the floor drawing wonky shapes. At the time it was one of the most amazing things I'd seen - and was probably similar to, if not exactly the same as this: http://www.classicacorn.freeuk.com/8bit_focus/logo/logo.html http://www.classicacorn.freeuk.com/8bit_focus/logo/logo.html Later, in secondary school, I remember amazing our teacher by getting the Acorn Archimedes we had to produce multicoloured spirograph-like patterns. Being able to type something - and then the computer actually going and doing it (or not) was both frustrating and fantastic, and left me with a lifelong interest in programming and learning new stuff. Thank you Seymour.

neves 10y ago

If you are an ACM member, you can download Papert's classic Mindstorm book here: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1095592&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFID=650941053&CFTOKEN=72086634&preflayout=flat http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1095592&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFI... (yes, the lego robot gets its name from this book)

bwldrbst 10y ago

Learning Logo on a Microbee in 1987 was my first introduction to computers. I remember being immensely excited when I figured out how to draw a circle.

mahmoodadv 10y ago

wow amazing http://greenlahore.blogspot.com/ http://greenlahore.blogspot.com/

nxzero 10y ago

New York Times coverage, "Seymour Papert, 88, Dies; Saw Education’s Future in Computers": http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-dies-saw-educations-future-in-computers.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-pape...

cnojima 10y ago
Truly a legend, will be sorely missed

DonHopkins 10y ago

Seymour Papert was a great philosopher, whose work on Constructionism has uplifted many children, inspired the OLPC project, and continues to have a huge positive influence on the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theo... Here is the source code to LLogo in MACLISP, which I stashed from the MIT-AI ITS system. It's a fascinating historical document, 12,480 lines of beautiful practical lisp code, defining where the rubber meets the road, with drivers for hardware like pots, plotters, robotic turtles, TV turtles, graphical displays, XGP laser printers, music devices, and lots of other interesting code and comments. http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp Here is a Logo Adventure game I wrote for Terrapin, the first program I ever sold, which they distributed with C64 Terrapin Logo, because they wanted a simple non-graphical game that showed off Logo's list processing capabilities: http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/logo/adventure.logo http://donhopkins.com/home/archive/logo/adventure.logo Seymour Papert greatly inspired me, and I applied his work on Constructionist Education to the open source version of SimCity for the OLPC. http://micropolisonline.com/static/documentation/HAR2009Transcript.html http://micropolisonline.com/static/documentation/HAR2009Tran...

lerpa 10y ago
Although his methods probably contributed a lot to popularization of computing, as a philosopher the mental model theory of knowledge has been demonstrated insufficient a long while ago, although it remained popular in the AI computer science field for much longer, the problems with that theory were known even during the hey-day of Papert's work. Just take a look at Hubert Dreyfus' work to better understand the issue.
- bchjam 10y ago
  I don't think constructivism and embodied cognition are too far afield, they both have an emphasis on environmental interaction. That sort of intertwingedness goes along with the general thrust of Dreyfus' argument (+ here's a link to Dreyfus' essay Why Heideggerian AI failed http://cid.nada.kth.se/en/HeideggerianAI.pdf http://cid.nada.kth.se/en/HeideggerianAI.pdf)

mtokunaga 10y ago

I did not have a fortune to get to know the LOGO or even SMALLTALK languages. By the time I've heard about it, it is the C++ or even C, and all us "professionals" dismissed this. I've just read up on the LOGO language on the Wiki, and some of its fortes are based on its roots in functional (encouraging recursions over a set) and declarative style. These people were already thinking about many years ahead for me. I would imagine my career would have been more enriched if I have encountered this early on in my life.

ehudla 10y ago

Where I met Logo: 1984, Devotion School, Brookline, Massachusetts, Apple computers, Then at home: TI-99/4A. You?

pseud0r 10y ago

Sad day. I think Bret Victor is right in that Seymour Papert's ideas are not useful only in teaching children about computers. This essay inspired by Mindstorms is a great read http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/

ontouchstart 10y ago

NY Times : http://nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-dies-saw-educations-future-in-computers.html http://nytimes.com/2016/08/02/technology/seymour-papert-88-d...

tudorw 10y ago

What an awesome contribution. I had a good chat with an educationalist about Logo and the hardware device that I experienced in the 70's with a pen that we programmed in primary school, we had a super progressive maths heavy headmaster, hey, maybe that explains something...anyway, a comment was that the more modern turtles made the pen inside the device less obvious and that this small change led to a diminished experience as the children did not get to see first hand the final act of creation, instead it came out of a 'magic box' that did something they maybe did not comprehend, these kind of subtle things show that inter-disciplinary work is super important.

smallbag 10y ago

I just installed Scratch and I find it awful but I am not a teenager. When a child realize that to simulate a small movement or scene you need to feed the computer with a lot of parameters he/she get bored. Fractals, like the Julia image, inspire us with deep thinking. What we want is to learn new concepts in such a way that the ratio power/(number of parameters) is very low. The logo idea is not about a turtle or a moving pen, is about the realization that you can draw complex images with a few parameters. I see loops as a form of parameters in a program. Snake moving is boring, we want to drive a drone. Virtual reality is a way of improving the way in which we feed parameters to the machine, another way is the machine learning about the programmer, completion of sentences, suggestions and predictions are a first step. A new logo is needed but one without turtles.

ideonexus 10y ago

One of my favorite Papert quotes from Mindstorms. I think it summarizes the potential of computers to revolutionize learning by empowering children to be autonomous explorers instead of learner-automatons. I hope one day our education systems will recognize this and flip the system, but it's hard to change culture: IN MOST contemporary educational situations where children come into contact with computers the computer is used to put children through their paces, to provide exercises of an appropriate level of difficulty, to provide feedback, and to dispense information. The computer programming the child. In the LOGO environment the relationship is reversed: The child, even at preschool ages, is in control: The child programs the computer. And in teaching the computer how to think, children embark on an exploration about how they themselves think. The experience can be heady: Thinking about thinking turns the child into an epistemologist, an experience not even shared by most adults.

kkylin 10y ago

Perceptrons remains one of my favorite books in many ways. Obviously the single-layer networks Minsky & Papert analyze are very primitive relative to today's deep neural networks, and the actual mathematical content may not be of direct use today. But the arguments were beautiful & insightful, and the exposition clear. For anyone interested in a mathematical understanding of computation in (artificial) neural networks, it's still not a bad place to start.

syk26 10y ago

I made an account today, just to comment on this news. Seymour Papert's work on Constructionism really struck a chord with me. I first learned about his work in college, and things like Logo really resonated with me - to point where I have now changed my career path from an engineer to one that is more education focused. I really hope people everywhere, and at least users on this site will learn more about his work and his importance.

edem 10y ago

This post might be competing for the "Most time spent on the front page" Award, right?