7 ms·

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 http://w

by _jgvg 10y ago

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from 70-170 micrograms/L; the differences remain statistically significant (p less than 0.01) after corrections for population density." Edit: on a second thought, it wouldn't drive them crazy, it would literally calm them! Edit 2: I'm not proposing adding therapy-level doses of lithium to the water, just equalizing it to the water in other regions.

nibs 10y ago
I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407280 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407280 [2]: http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00626-5/abstract?cc=y= http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00626-5/abs... [3]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24072668 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24072668
- iaskwhy 10y ago
  Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?
  - johnward 10y ago
    It's available as a prescription in the US. A psychiatrist can prescribe it. There are other drugs that have less side effects that can be tried first though. I wouldn't take it without doctor supervision as it's very easy to reach toxic levels in your blood. Even while on it with a doctor you need blood work regularly. It is one thing that did finally start to help me after about 10 years of dealing with bipolar 2 (which included symptoms of not wanting to live). https://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Lithium https://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Lithium
  - PragmaticPulp 10y ago
    This may not apply to you, but I must mention it: Anyone suffering from suicidal ideation should seek professional help. These aren't the kinds of things you want to try to self-medicate away. That said, there is a form of lithium that is available over the counter: Lithium Orotate. The amount of elemental lithium per dose is lower than you'll find in prescription lithium carbonate treatment, but you wouldn't want to attempt to self-medicate in to the prescription range anyway. Lithium has a notoriously narrow therapeutic window, and it would be too easy to dose yourself into the toxic range. I've tried lithium orotoate myself out of curiosity for circadian rhythm modification. Although the dose is lower than that of prescription lithium, the effects and side effects were still palpable. Personally, I found no positive benefits but substantial cognitive slowing and general feelings of malaise. It's also worth noting that lithium is moderately toxic to the kidneys over time. Having tried low-dose lithium orotate myself, I would never advocate for any amount of supplemental lithium in water supplies. Let's leave the medication to those who need it, rather than forcing it upon the entire population.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > I would never advocate for any amount of supplemental lithium in water supplies. Would you remove the lithium from other water supplies?
  - nibs 10y ago
    Not meaningfully. I think PragmaticPulp captured it well. You can increase the amount of lithium you consume, but mostly what lithium does is improve B12 metabolism. Regardless of suicidal ideation status, taking B12 and improving diet/sleep would be better than taking lithium. B12 is consistently and significantly lower in those with clinical bipolar than controls, so it is the real problem. Superdosing lithium ensures an ideal environment for B12 metabolism, hence the benefits.
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  Do take varying diets and local culture in consideration when you push for such stuff. Lithium is almost certainly harmless, but adding zinc to the water will probably cause health problems for some people. It may be a case of doing it, and warning people not to eat too much of it. But you need actual research to discover that.
- PragmaticPulp 10y ago
  It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is otherwise healthy be subjected to those side effects for the incremental benefit of a select few. The magnitude of these side effects may be relatively small in the levels we're talking about, but the net effect is likely not negligible when applied to entire populations over the course of their lifetimes.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    To add to this, I think there are many people who just plain wouldn't like do this. Even if they're unhappy or depressed they'd rather not have that feeling taken away by a mood stabilizer. I'm not going to argue with the fact that it results in "better" outcomes in some people's minds, but personally I'd rather accept an increased suicide risk. I'm sure I could take any number of mind-altering substances every day and I'd feel great, but that doesn't mean it's something I want to do.
  - nibs 10y ago
    Lithium is an element, not just a medication. The element is used to medicate people with bipolar, in huge dosages. You and I both consume lithium every day. We may consume slightly more or less than others. The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. Lithium the medication is in 100-1000x the dosages, hence the side effects. If it is bad in high (but naturally occurring, and much lower than the medication) doses, we should filter it out.
    - PragmaticPulp 10y ago
      > Lithium is an element, not just a medication. It doesn't matter if you call it an element or a medication, it has non-negligible medical effects and side effects. If it had no relevant effects, we wouldn't be discussing it here. > The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. "No side effects" is an impossible claim to make. The studies we do have show a correlation between lithium in the water supply and suicidal frequency in the population. The side effects have not been studied. For some hard evidence: Lithium in drinking water is correlated with changes of thyroid function: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114818/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114818/ Lithium most certainly does have side effects that are dose- and time-dependent. The side effects may be minimal at low concentrations, but when applied to a population over the course of a lifetime, they would certainly add up. Especially for those who are most susceptible to the negative effects. It's also not hard to imagine that lithium's suicide rate reduction effects (which are purely correlation at this point, FWIW) are due to it's tendency to mellow people out. The cognitive dulling of even small amounts of lithium orotate in healthy (non-bipolar and non-suicidal) people are palpable. Would you still advocate for lithium in the water if it reduced the average intelligence of the population by, say, 1%? I'm picking hypothetical numbers here, but the reality is that there are certainly downsides to mass-medicating people with small doses of lithium.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  While you're at it, you might as well add magnesium, potassium, sulfate, phosphate, iodide, L-selenomethionine, copper, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, orthosilicic acid, and ascorbate, too. While you can't make people exercise and eat their vegetables, they will usually drink the tap water. But you then have to provide a way for people to opt out without any de facto penalty, which is the problem. So this would so something more suited for a dedicated drinking water system in an apartment building or complex. The mineralized water on tap goes to sinks, drinking fountains, and refrigerators, and regular old municipal water to sinks, toilets, showers, and laundry machines.
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    Iodine is already added, to salt.
ultramancool 10y ago
You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.
- johnward 10y ago
  What about all those cancer causing chemicals we allow companies to dump into the water or fluoride? I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    > I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride. They are. I hope however that we can agree that they are in fact conspiracy theorists.
    - toolz 10y ago
      Why would you hope that? What do you gain by polarizing an entire group of people based on something as inconsequential as fluoride? Are you unable to brush your own teeth and would suffer great harm if they stopped profiting from companies who pay to dump their fluoride waste into our water supply? Crazy ideas only get crazier when you don't calmly address them with education and instead find some weird necessity to ostracize those with differing viewpoints.
      - lawless123 10y ago
        also vaccines..
        toolz 10y ago
        Hmm, vaccines are in a slightly different camp as they are most effective when everyone uses them. I will say that the anti-anti-vaccine crowd does much more harm than good by spreading pro-vaccine propaganda. Believe it or not, not every vaccine created has been effective and harmless and by generalizing your hate speeches (on both sides) instead of educating you only cause people to make emotional decisions rather than rational decisions.
Kenji 10y ago
Ludicrous. Let people decide that for themselves. I can't believe anyone is seriously suggesting force medicating us because it seems to be correlated (note, correlation, not necessarily causation) with a drop of suicide, homicide and rape. We don't even know how lithium would cause such a thing and its exact effect on the psyche. I have been following the field of psychology and psychiatry closely and let me tell you, they are not only far from understanding and curing the causes of mental disorders, they are also prescribing very harmful medication based on biased research funded by pharma. What you are arguing for is very dangerous. And even if it was shown to be beneficial beyond doubt, why not make these supplements available in another form, cheaply and conveniently? State mandated force medication is not only infantilizing to the extreme, it also violates essential liberties of the people.
- ucaetano 10y ago
  You're already medicated. Fluorine is added to water, and iodine to salt.
  - Kenji 10y ago
    Your point being? I am opposed to that too. I just think it should be people's own decision to medicate themselves however they see fit. At least with the salt you can buy whatever salt you please,with or without iodine. The water supply, on the other hand, cannot be chosen.
    - ucaetano 10y ago
      You can buy whatever water you choose to drink, done pretty frequently around the world.
wrsh07 10y ago
You realize there are seriously negative side effects to lithium, right? Kidney disease, extremely bad for nursing babies, etc
hx87 10y ago
How about a compromise: make some form of lithium available OTC, without any patents involved?
SilasX 10y ago
Ethically, what's the difference between that and water fluoridation? Atomic number? In both cases, you're forcing a chemical on people that the evidence says would be to their benefit, but with a Knightian ("unknown unknown") risk of really hurting them.
- rtkwe 10y ago
  The point of dumping lithium would be explicitly behavioral modification which is a different kind of thing entirely to the effects of fluoride in the water.
amelius 10y ago
Or perhaps people should start taking more cod-liver oil, like people did in the old days.
tathougies 10y ago
Lithium can cause severe problems for those who have hypothyroidism (a significant portion of women). For these people, the lack of thyroid hormone would likely worsen their depression.

by _jgvg 10y ago

nibs 10y ago

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407280 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407280 [2]: http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00626-5/abstract?cc=y= http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00626-5/abs... [3]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24072668 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24072668

iaskwhy 10y ago
Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?
- johnward 10y ago
  It's available as a prescription in the US. A psychiatrist can prescribe it. There are other drugs that have less side effects that can be tried first though. I wouldn't take it without doctor supervision as it's very easy to reach toxic levels in your blood. Even while on it with a doctor you need blood work regularly. It is one thing that did finally start to help me after about 10 years of dealing with bipolar 2 (which included symptoms of not wanting to live). https://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Lithium https://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Lithium
- PragmaticPulp 10y ago
  This may not apply to you, but I must mention it: Anyone suffering from suicidal ideation should seek professional help. These aren't the kinds of things you want to try to self-medicate away. That said, there is a form of lithium that is available over the counter: Lithium Orotate. The amount of elemental lithium per dose is lower than you'll find in prescription lithium carbonate treatment, but you wouldn't want to attempt to self-medicate in to the prescription range anyway. Lithium has a notoriously narrow therapeutic window, and it would be too easy to dose yourself into the toxic range. I've tried lithium orotoate myself out of curiosity for circadian rhythm modification. Although the dose is lower than that of prescription lithium, the effects and side effects were still palpable. Personally, I found no positive benefits but substantial cognitive slowing and general feelings of malaise. It's also worth noting that lithium is moderately toxic to the kidneys over time. Having tried low-dose lithium orotate myself, I would never advocate for any amount of supplemental lithium in water supplies. Let's leave the medication to those who need it, rather than forcing it upon the entire population.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > I would never advocate for any amount of supplemental lithium in water supplies. Would you remove the lithium from other water supplies?
- nibs 10y ago
  Not meaningfully. I think PragmaticPulp captured it well. You can increase the amount of lithium you consume, but mostly what lithium does is improve B12 metabolism. Regardless of suicidal ideation status, taking B12 and improving diet/sleep would be better than taking lithium. B12 is consistently and significantly lower in those with clinical bipolar than controls, so it is the real problem. Superdosing lithium ensures an ideal environment for B12 metabolism, hence the benefits.
marcosdumay 10y ago
Do take varying diets and local culture in consideration when you push for such stuff. Lithium is almost certainly harmless, but adding zinc to the water will probably cause health problems for some people. It may be a case of doing it, and warning people not to eat too much of it. But you need actual research to discover that.
PragmaticPulp 10y ago
It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is otherwise healthy be subjected to those side effects for the incremental benefit of a select few. The magnitude of these side effects may be relatively small in the levels we're talking about, but the net effect is likely not negligible when applied to entire populations over the course of their lifetimes.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  To add to this, I think there are many people who just plain wouldn't like do this. Even if they're unhappy or depressed they'd rather not have that feeling taken away by a mood stabilizer. I'm not going to argue with the fact that it results in "better" outcomes in some people's minds, but personally I'd rather accept an increased suicide risk. I'm sure I could take any number of mind-altering substances every day and I'd feel great, but that doesn't mean it's something I want to do.
- nibs 10y ago
  Lithium is an element, not just a medication. The element is used to medicate people with bipolar, in huge dosages. You and I both consume lithium every day. We may consume slightly more or less than others. The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. Lithium the medication is in 100-1000x the dosages, hence the side effects. If it is bad in high (but naturally occurring, and much lower than the medication) doses, we should filter it out.
  - PragmaticPulp 10y ago
    > Lithium is an element, not just a medication. It doesn't matter if you call it an element or a medication, it has non-negligible medical effects and side effects. If it had no relevant effects, we wouldn't be discussing it here. > The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. "No side effects" is an impossible claim to make. The studies we do have show a correlation between lithium in the water supply and suicidal frequency in the population. The side effects have not been studied. For some hard evidence: Lithium in drinking water is correlated with changes of thyroid function: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114818/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114818/ Lithium most certainly does have side effects that are dose- and time-dependent. The side effects may be minimal at low concentrations, but when applied to a population over the course of a lifetime, they would certainly add up. Especially for those who are most susceptible to the negative effects. It's also not hard to imagine that lithium's suicide rate reduction effects (which are purely correlation at this point, FWIW) are due to it's tendency to mellow people out. The cognitive dulling of even small amounts of lithium orotate in healthy (non-bipolar and non-suicidal) people are palpable. Would you still advocate for lithium in the water if it reduced the average intelligence of the population by, say, 1%? I'm picking hypothetical numbers here, but the reality is that there are certainly downsides to mass-medicating people with small doses of lithium.
logfromblammo 10y ago
While you're at it, you might as well add magnesium, potassium, sulfate, phosphate, iodide, L-selenomethionine, copper, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, orthosilicic acid, and ascorbate, too. While you can't make people exercise and eat their vegetables, they will usually drink the tap water. But you then have to provide a way for people to opt out without any de facto penalty, which is the problem. So this would so something more suited for a dedicated drinking water system in an apartment building or complex. The mineralized water on tap goes to sinks, drinking fountains, and refrigerators, and regular old municipal water to sinks, toilets, showers, and laundry machines.
- ucaetano 10y ago
  Iodine is already added, to salt.

ultramancool 10y ago

You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.

johnward 10y ago
What about all those cancer causing chemicals we allow companies to dump into the water or fluoride? I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  > I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride. They are. I hope however that we can agree that they are in fact conspiracy theorists.
  - toolz 10y ago
    Why would you hope that? What do you gain by polarizing an entire group of people based on something as inconsequential as fluoride? Are you unable to brush your own teeth and would suffer great harm if they stopped profiting from companies who pay to dump their fluoride waste into our water supply? Crazy ideas only get crazier when you don't calmly address them with education and instead find some weird necessity to ostracize those with differing viewpoints.
    - lawless123 10y ago
      also vaccines..
      - toolz 10y ago
        Hmm, vaccines are in a slightly different camp as they are most effective when everyone uses them. I will say that the anti-anti-vaccine crowd does much more harm than good by spreading pro-vaccine propaganda. Believe it or not, not every vaccine created has been effective and harmless and by generalizing your hate speeches (on both sides) instead of educating you only cause people to make emotional decisions rather than rational decisions.

Kenji 10y ago

Ludicrous. Let people decide that for themselves. I can't believe anyone is seriously suggesting force medicating us because it seems to be correlated (note, correlation, not necessarily causation) with a drop of suicide, homicide and rape. We don't even know how lithium would cause such a thing and its exact effect on the psyche. I have been following the field of psychology and psychiatry closely and let me tell you, they are not only far from understanding and curing the causes of mental disorders, they are also prescribing very harmful medication based on biased research funded by pharma. What you are arguing for is very dangerous. And even if it was shown to be beneficial beyond doubt, why not make these supplements available in another form, cheaply and conveniently? State mandated force medication is not only infantilizing to the extreme, it also violates essential liberties of the people.

ucaetano 10y ago
You're already medicated. Fluorine is added to water, and iodine to salt.
- Kenji 10y ago
  Your point being? I am opposed to that too. I just think it should be people's own decision to medicate themselves however they see fit. At least with the salt you can buy whatever salt you please,with or without iodine. The water supply, on the other hand, cannot be chosen.
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    You can buy whatever water you choose to drink, done pretty frequently around the world.

wrsh07 10y ago

You realize there are seriously negative side effects to lithium, right? Kidney disease, extremely bad for nursing babies, etc

hx87 10y ago

How about a compromise: make some form of lithium available OTC, without any patents involved?

SilasX 10y ago

Ethically, what's the difference between that and water fluoridation? Atomic number? In both cases, you're forcing a chemical on people that the evidence says would be to their benefit, but with a Knightian ("unknown unknown") risk of really hurting them.

rtkwe 10y ago
The point of dumping lithium would be explicitly behavioral modification which is a different kind of thing entirely to the effects of fluoride in the water.

amelius 10y ago

Or perhaps people should start taking more cod-liver oil, like people did in the old days.

tathougies 10y ago

Lithium can cause severe problems for those who have hypothyroidism (a significant portion of women). For these people, the lack of thyroid hormone would likely worsen their depression.