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64-bit ARM desktop hardware?
- dmm 10y agoNot loading for me, here's the google cache: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FbgwL1aC8DcJ:https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2016/07/25/aarch64-desktop-hardware/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FbgwL1...
- okket 10y agoLoads fine for me, just a moment ago. Try: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/marcin.juszkiewicz.co...
- nextos 10y agoI got interested in ARM desktop & laptop hardware while I was looking for more open solutions. Remarkably, the only modern hardware that is truly open top-down, including firmware, are cheap Rockchip Chromebooks [1]. I'm also looking forward to POWER offerings, which might be more performant and thus suitable as workstations [2]. [1] https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html [2] https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php
- new299 10y agoIn terms of this article, the RK3288 is a 32bit ARM7. I've also been looking at this. I think the Google Pixel C might be a good option, for a 64bit ARM laptop. I've seen some talk of running Ubuntu on it. But it uses the Nvidia TX1 which has good Ubuntu support on the TX1 Jetson.
- nextos 10y agoI thought the Pixel C bootloader was looked. Do you have any pointers to instructions on how to boot Ubuntu on this machine? The problem with ARM architectures is the lack of a standard boot system.
- ashitlerferad 10y agoUEFI is the standard firmware these days, at least for ARM servers.
- metafex 10y agoIt is locked. There is a switch like with the Chromebooks, but to reach it you have to disassemble it. OTOH rooting and running custom kernels works. Not ideal but it works for some use-cases. edit: The Pixel C runs on Coreboot of course.
- nextos 10y agoYep, but has anyone successfully installed Linux (aside from ChromeOS, obviously)?
- mwcampbell 10y agoThis is still 32-bit only, but you might be interested in the EOMA68 modular computing hardware campaign on Crowd Supply. [1] Since it's modular, at least we can potentially have a 64-bit computer card later, while re-using the micro-desktop and laptop housing. [1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
- TD-Linux 10y agoOr the Novena, also on CrowdSupply [1]. It's the closest to a "real" ARM computer as I've found. It has 4GB of RAM, SATA, and all the peripherals you'd expect for a laptop or low profile desktop. I've used it to design PCBs in KiCAD - second generation open hardware :) Though again, it's only 32bit, and while that works great for most purposes, it still leaves the OP's point valid. (I have one of the early 64-bit 8-core hikey 96boards mentioned, and I'd take the Novena over it any day) [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
- keenerd 10y agoI use an RK3288 as my main dev machine these days. It is faster than the 64 bit x86 thinkpad it replaced. Overall, pretty nice. Some of my experiences are summarized here: http://kmkeen.com/c100p-tweaks/ http://kmkeen.com/c100p-tweaks/
- bluedino 10y agoWhatever happened to the Acorn RISC PC's from the mid/late 90's? I remember guys in the UK on USENET with the 'StrongARM...' in their signatures.
- new299 10y agoYea. ARM was originally a desktop processor and then was spun out from Acorn and moved toward mobile/low power. Bits of Acorn eventually got bought by various people and it no longer exists.
- timthorn 10y agoAnd x86 was original embedded...
- okket 10y agoAlso somewhat related but MIPS, not ARM. The Cobalt Qube [1] and Raq [2] (though later ones replaced the MIPS CPU with AMD K6/Pentium) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_Qube https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_Qube [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_RaQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_RaQ
- bluedino 10y agoI remember those weird little web hosting appliances. Found more than one customer who was locked into something developed on one (they were easy to migrate to a generic RedHat setup) and we even co-located a handful of them for people.
- Symbiote 10y agoAcorn seemed to fail to advertise their products outside the education market, which rapidly dried up as education shifted to teaching Microsoft Word on cheap PCs. The final workstation system was cancelled in 1998 [1], ARM spun off as a separate company, and the remaining part of Acorn made set-top boxes for digital TV. It was then bought by Broadcom. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(computer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(computer) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers#1998.E2.80.932000:_Element_14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers#1998.E2.80.932...
- markokrajnc 10y agoJust buy Raspberry Pi 3 and you will have 64-bit ARM desktop hardware...
- Nullabillity 10y agoDoes any software actually enable the 64-bit mode yet?
- Zigurd 10y agoNot end-user usable software, as far as I can tell. It appears that some people have built 64 bit kernels but with many features broken or missing.
- markokrajnc 10y agoUltibo may soon be working in 64-bit mode: https://ultibo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60 https://ultibo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60
- protomyth 10y agoI finally saw a retail package in an actual store right next to the drones. Quite a selection of packages (e.g. bare, complete, etc.) too. It is one of those, "I know what those are" purchases since there was no support material (signs, books, software) around them.
- choudanu4 10y agoThe raspberry pi 3 only runs in 32-bit mode right now [1]. There is no 64-bit kernel for it currently. [1]: https://www.linux.com/news/raspberry-pi-3-still-essentially-32-bit-sbc-now https://www.linux.com/news/raspberry-pi-3-still-essentially-...
- markokrajnc 10y agoThe raspberry pi 3 runs in 32 and 64 mode. There is no >>LINUX<< 64-bit kernel for it currently...
- lazyjones 10y agoWhat's wrong with the Gigabyte MP30-AR0? http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5422#ov http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5422#... It's sold as a server board in the $1000 range, but seems to fit the bill as far as the points in the blog article are concerned.
- WatchDog 10y agoThe author seemed to imply that $1000+ was too much to pay. Regardless, I did a quick search and couldn't find anyone actually selling that board or listing a price.
- lazyjones 10y ago> I did a quick search and couldn't find anyone actually selling that board or listing a price. Large german online store Mindfactory claims availability with 3-5 days for delivery time: http://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/Gigabyte-MP30-AR0-SoC-So-BGA-Quad-Channel-DDR3-mATX-Retail_1030045.html http://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/Gigabyte-MP30-AR0...
- tsuraan 10y agoI've been shopping for a low-power server board, and I absolutely want that one. The problem is, nobody seems to sell it. I can't find any notice that it's been discontinued, but every reseller that google's given me has said that the board is out of stock (I think I found one in Spain, actually, but I'd rather order from somewhere in NA). Do you know where a person can actually buy that board?
- Gregordinary 10y agoNot in NA, but looks like this company has one in stock: https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-with-appliedmicro-x-gene1-processor https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-with-appl...
- rwmj 10y agoThey are definitely available in the EU. I got one from xcase.co.uk. Note there is a slightly newer variant now (MP30-AR1), although it still uses the X-gene 1. If I were you I'd wait a bit for the Cavium-based Gigabyte boards. I have pricing for these which unfortunately I'm not permitted to reveal, but it will be very competitive. The Caviums have lots of cores (48 / socket), but each core is pretty slow, like an Intel Atom. Caviums have tons of fast I/O. The challenge is to make software which can deal with this, since it's quite unlike Intel hardware (few, fast cores, slow I/O).
- _ph_ 10y agoThis is something I don't understand with any cpu manufacturer which isn't x86. Why don't the manufacturers offer standard pc motherboards tweaked for their corresponding cpu? Since the mid-90ies, they would have made nice Linux platforms. I think, many Linux enthusiasts would be thrilled to run an alternative CPU platform. By offering cheap desktop solutions, they would drive the software base and interest for the more expensive enterprise hardware. Back then it was Sparc - it was still competitive in performance with Intel, later PowerPc, now Arm64.
- vertex-four 10y agoIt's not necessarily cheap to provide and support a full desktop system, especially given the very small minority of people who might actually be interested in it.
- drewg123 10y ago+1 to that. I feel his pain, having been there myself. Back when DEC Alpha CPUs were still a going concern, I was one of the maintainers of the FreeBSD/alpha port. While DEC shipped their workstations, they were beyond the reach of OSS developers. The first "normal" Alpha board was the API UP1000. It was basically an Alpha 21264 on an AMD motherboard & it was totally awesome. API shipped me one before they were generally available so I could get FreeBSD working on it. I used it as my desktop (running FreeBSD/alpha) for years. Sadly all things Alpha were killed off in favor of Itanium. Here is the best description I can find of it in ~30 seconds of googling: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/API+Announces+Program+to+Encourage+ISVs+And+IHVs+To+Develop+Alpha...-a059124753 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/API+Announces+Program+to+Encou...
- danieldk 10y agoI fondly remember getting an AXP-PCI 33 board as a teenager, which were (at some point) really affordable [1]. It was my first non-x86 machine. [1] http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/alpha/axpcidgc.pdf http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/alpha/...
- salem 10y ago
- coredog64 10y agoNvidia Shield console? 3GB of RAM, a fancy video card (with support for CUDA), and gigabit ethernet. The guys at Hypriot have even demonstrated a working Docker install [0] The custom partition layout is kind of wonky, so I'd likely just by the non-PRO version and use USB 3 and an SSD for additional storage. I'd be happier still if Nvidia supported running other distros on it -- I wouldn't even be mad if I could no longer use it for gaming or watching movies. [0] http://blog.hypriot.com/post/getting-docker-running-on-a-highend-arm-gaming-console-for-fun-and-profit/ http://blog.hypriot.com/post/getting-docker-running-on-a-hig...
- frou_dh 10y agoIs it not the thrust of the article that they don't want to 'make do' by repurposing fruity consumer products, but want actual workstation hardware, or at least hardware that is 'serious' by virtue of having utilitarian form-factor?
- jamesfmilne 10y agoOr the Jetson TX1 dev kit, $599 - 4GB RAM - 1GB Ethernet - 802.11ac wifi - 16GB eMMC onboard - m2 slot - PCIe Gen2 x4 slot - SATA interface - USB 2 and USB 3 ports <http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-kit.html> http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-kit.html> NVIDIA should really sell a case for it to make it into a NUC-style desktop.
- coldpie 10y ago> <http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-kit.html> http://www.nvidia.com/object/jetson-tx1-dev-kit.html> Really wish hackernews would fix this bug already.
- hawski 10y agoInteresting. Honest questions: If I would buy one, can I count on driver updates for at least 3-4 years? And after 3-4 years can I count on having Open Source drivers not much worse than proprietary?
- 10y ago
- intrasight 10y agoThere the NVIDIA Jetson TK1 and TX1. An excellent desktop platform IMHO. When the TK1 came out, you could get one free by telling them what you planned to do with it. Unfortunately they tripled the price from the TK1 ($200) to the TX1 ($600). You can get a TK1 on ebay for ~$150. This thing is much faster than the million dollar supercomputer I used in college ;)
- fit2rule 10y agoThis thing looks pretty nice, but the catch of course, is that you need all the expansion boards as well, so the costs go way up. Plus, there's the whole availability thing .. I'd love to hear from someone who has one and can tell us what its like as a machine. I'm in the camp of those who would like to have a smart Linux workstation with modern peripherals and not be x86, just for the kicks of it .. so actually, the TX1 seems like it might be a pretty viable investment.
- jfb 10y agoI have a TK1; it's perfectly usable as a desktop machine. I don't use it because I don't like Ubuntu and the project I was using it for has finished, but plug a SSD into it and it works a treat.
- fit2rule 10y agoWould you consider selling it, then?
- intrasight 10y agoSorry for the delay. Yes, I'll sell it.
- jfb 10y agoOh, sorry, missed this. Sure. Send me an email to the listed address if you're still interested.
- 10y ago
- blastrat 10y agohe suggested "motherboard", not "full desktop system" resist the urge to reword
- esmi 10y agoI think the parent mentions both and I agree with their comment. A desktop motherboard, to me, includes things like audio and video support which can be a pain to support. If all you want is a board with a USB port and memory then you can have that today.
- mrweasel 10y ago>A desktop motherboard, to me, includes things like audio and video support Ideally, what most of us want, I think, is a ARM ATX motherboard, with a few PCI Express slots. I believe that it would limit the selection of processor though.
- _ph_ 10y agoYes, exactly that. The typical PC motherboards start at $100, and have so since the 90ies. Just one of those, with a socket for their cpu and a translated bios just good enough to bootstrap Linux should not be so much more expensive. Even if they had to sell it at cost it would be worth spreading the technology.
- vertex-four 10y agoThey are, however, mass-manufactured, and how to build an Intel motherboard is well-known, there's very little research cost involved. An ARM motherboard really couldn't be mass-manufactured - there wouldn't be enough demand - and you're starting almost from scratch in terms of knowledge of how it integrates with the processor. Also, if you wanted a socket, you'd have to actually design a socket for your ARM chip, and then sell ARM chips that are socket-able, with few people who actually want them.
- blastrat 10y ago
- cptskippy 10y agoDid ARM ever get a formalized platform? I remember reading that one of the major issues with adoption of ARM was that there wasn't a common platform for the CPU to interface with external devices. It was all custom and proprietary which is fine for embedded systems but not so good for desktops or consumer grade PCs. Is that no longer the case?
- raverbashing 10y agoWell, plugging things directly on the processor bus is something that is "out of fashion" since the ISA days (in the PC world at least)
- cptskippy 10y agoRight but isn't it also advantageous from a low power perspective because it reduces the number of chips and over all power profile of the device?
- ashitlerferad 10y agoIt did but only for servers: http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-ecosystem-collaborates-to-deliver-initial-server-platform-standard.php http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-ecosystem-collaborates...
- cptskippy 10y agoSo is that perhaps the reason why there has been little adoption or investment from OEMs into producing standardized boards?
- rwmj 10y agoYes, sort of. The other problem, shared with 32 bit ARM, is that there are billions of shitty Android chips made each year, and it's very easy to take one of these, slap it into a development board, add a proprietary kernel with random blobs, and sell it for $50. These crowd out properly designed server hardware, or anything that cares about freedom, upstream Linux, maintainability, virtualization, etc.
- mindcrime 10y agoI've felt this same frustration with POWER for what feels like forever. I'd love to build and run a POWER desktop system, but traditionally there hasn't been a readily available, standard form-factor, somewhat inexpensive motherboard that you could just order up from Tyan or whoever. On and off over the years there's been a lot of talk about how this company or that was going to build a standard ATX motherboard for POWER cpu's, but they seem to never materialize, or if they do, they're insanely expensive, or something which keeps the whole idea just out of reach. This most recent push for openness in the POWER world might actually change that though. Tyan does have a kinda-sorta not-too-expensive POWER8 based server available, and there was a document floating around a while back listing all the companies who were committing to build machines, motherboards, etc. based on POWER8. As I recall, there were a lot of names on the list, which is encouraging. But still... why can't we hit up NewEgg and order an ATX motherboard, a CPU and some RAM for, say, $1000.00 or less? sigh
- ashitlerferad 10y agoGuess you are waiting for TALOS to be released? Bit too expensive though. https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php
- mindcrime 10y agoYeah, I like the idea behind TALOS, but nearly $4k for just the motherboard and CPU??? That's a bit much for me to swallow. :-(
- gravypod 10y agoI'd love a system that fits the form factor of my desktop motherboard but supports an arm chipset. My main system mother board is a little... strange from the normal. I've build my system around being 100% silent and low power while still having enough juice to run some IDEs and be productive. My current mobo is from ASRock and has an interesting feature [0]. It's got support to use a laptop charger as a PSU built into the board. If there was a low power, passive, ARM system for a desktop like this I'd switch. This is just the lowest power and quietest build I could think of currently. (Only problem is no MSATA :() [0] - http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1H-ITX/ http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1H-ITX/
- slinger 10y agoJust out of curiosity, what are the advantages of using ARM on a desktop over a x86-64 architecture for an end-user? Or it is just to enable developers targeting server softwares to buy a less expensive hardware? I can see the advantages of using it on servers and IoT though.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y agoMaybe Apple might switch from Intel to ARM for the Mac at some point. They've switched architecture twice before (68k to PowerPC, PowerPC to Intel), they could do it again. I'm sure they'd relish the chance to design their own desktop CPUs, not just ones for mobile devices.
- drudru11 10y agoNextStep ran on 68k, Sparc, PA RISC, and I think a few others. Btw - laptop CPUs are A LOT like mobile CPUs. Single threaded performance on Apple ARM CPUs are very competitive with recent Intel laptop processors.
- __d 10y agoI keep hoping that's why there's been no new Mac hardware recently ...
- digi_owl 10y agomore likely that they will retire the whole MacOS line at that point. Not sure if they have alienated enough of the media production market to do so though.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y agoWhy would ARM be the death of macOS? If it can run on Intel, PowerPC and 68k, what's another processor transition? And why would that “alienate the media production market”? Apple could build a beefy ARM machine if they needed.
- picken_001 10y agoSoftIron have a 'SoftIron 1000' for $599 http://softiron.co.uk/products/ http://softiron.co.uk/products/
- throw2016 10y agoThose who have tried the Odroid C2 will not fail to be impressed by how delightfully close it is to offering a significant desktop experience for a $40 device. It's nearly unbelievable that this tiny, portable device sips powers and can run accelerated videos upto 4k, runs 64 bit Ubuntu Mate and even 720p Youtube on Chromium. And it could be more but for ARM. The potential for disruption is massive and yet here is ARM dragging its feet with it's increasingly inexplicable and extremely closed nature. Things only work on Android, the GPU especially is a big problem, and given Android runs the Linux kernel I am sure Arm and Google are having a laugh at the point of open source. Most current mid to high end ARM SOCs and those coming make Intel's pricing and value look extremely questionable. These SOCs are a fraction of the price Intel demands. Enough to raise doubts about the future of the platform beyond high end gaming and GPU use cases. And with Vulcan even that is up in the air. The iPad Pro benches close the the Macbook. The A72 SOCs are at 1500 single core and 4000-5000 multicore on Geekbench. This is real. Yet ARM for reasons best known to them either do not see the potential or do not want to pursue it, giving Intel a breather. Now with Softbank acquiring ARM at this critical juncture its anyone's guess where this goes.
- Animats 10y agoThere's this little desktop box, sold as a development system [1]: AMD Opteron A1100 series processor 4 x 64-bit ARM Cortex A57 Cores 2 x RDIMM with 8GB DDR4 DRAM 1 x 1GBase-T Ethernet 2 x USB 3.0 ports 2 x SATA 3.0 ports 1 x 1TB HDD $599 (Pre-Order Now – Delivery July) - not good seeing that on July 25th. No graphics, though. It's really a server board in a desktop package. There are lots of small boards which are really tablet-type systems-on-a-chip where the connections from the chip were brought out to connectors. (That's what a Raspberry Pi is.) But they don't usually have PCI or SATA interfaces, so disk I/O capability is limited. There are good embedded 32-bit ARM boards, but the embedded world isn't going 64-bit yet. Everybody seems to assume you're going to cross-compile and remote debug for embedded and server work. QNX doesn't even self-host any more. (I rather liked having a QNX desktop.) [1] https://shop.softiron.co.uk/product/overdrive-1000/ https://shop.softiron.co.uk/product/overdrive-1000/
- Animats 10y agoSite now reads "Pre-Order Now – Delivery August". Even less good.
- mrmondo 10y agoI have a nvidia shield just sitting around (because to be honest it's pretty useless as a console / with android on it), I've been considering looking up to see if it can run Fedora / CentOS's ARM port for some time. This might just be the push over the edge I need...
- leoc 10y agoHow about the Gigabyte MP30-AR0, apparently actually available to consumers through this one retailer?: https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-with-appliedmicro-x-gene1-processor https://www.xcase.co.uk/products/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-with-appl... It seems Richard WM Jones has got RHEL running on it: https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-flashing-uefi/ https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-flas...
- mininodes 10y agoAside from the Overdrive 1000 as already mentioned by others: http://softiron.co.uk/products/ http://softiron.co.uk/products/, there is the LeMaker Cello forthcoming (which was supposed to have already shipped but...) available for pre-order here: http://www.lenovator.com/product/103.html http://www.lenovator.com/product/103.html
- sitkack 10y agoWhy not make a 32 core arm chip with an amd pin out so it can fit into existing low cost motherboards ?