12 ms·

Turkey Extends Purge to Universities, Asking All Deans to Go

126 points by sethbannon 10y ago

vegabook 10y ago
"Democracy is like a tram. You use it to get to you destination, and then you get off" - Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The West was seriously duped by this guy. I remember The Economist's self-deluded/deceitful decade-long, apologetic editorial line, never letting a mention of the islamist AKP go unqualified with the adjective "mildly" (read: "market friendly"), and it is ironic that one of the most effective Brexit camp scare tactics was Turkish EU accession, when it was Britain under Blair and Cameron who were the most vociferous advocates of the policy in the first place. The fix is in. This "coup" is a transparent manipulation by Erdogan so that he might grab absolute power. Who knows what havoc he will now wreak in the region, and in Europe, with it.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  Oh, thank goodness that he doesn't fundamentally misunderstand the concept or anything! moans
  - vegabook 10y ago
    Reminds me of the bitter colonialists' quip during the period of African independence: "one man one vote. Once" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote#One_man.2C_one_vote.2C_once https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote#One_man.2C_o...
    - JoshTriplett 10y ago
      Or Terry Pratchett on the Patrician: "Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man, he had the Vote." (Mort, Terry Pratchett)
    - hx87 10y ago
      That was the /anti/ colonialists, I believe.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        I've mostly heard it in echoes referring to later events, and am not clear on the origins, but intuitively it makes the most sense as a statement by the opponents of decolonialization commenting on the likely results of democratic elections after the departure of the colonial authorities, so it makes sense for it to be the colonialists rather than the anti-colonialists.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- FreedomToCreate 10y ago
  Is there a link to this quote?
  - stdgy 10y ago
    Earliest I can find is a NYTimes reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/the-east-in-the-west.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/the-east-in-the-w... Search for streetcar.
- api 10y ago
  He made GDP go up. The West has also spent the past decade and a half fawning over the genius of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA for the same reason. Look into their glorious human rights record, or the level of inequality there for that matter. Makes the USA look like an egalitarian utopia. Dubai is another one. Look at those skyscrapers! What a dynamic economy! Never mind the slave labor and the caste system. I'd throw Singapore in too. They're nowhere near as bad as the PLA or Dubai in practice but they are essentially totalitarian at heart. But the numbers look good and the streets are clean so it's okay. Side note: One thing that's disillusioned me about libertarianism is that the past 30-ish years of history seem to have proven that capitalism and economic health are absolutely compatible with totalitarianism. IMHO the Randian notion that the two are at odds and that a dynamic economy requires freedom and justice has been empirically proven wrong. Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like?
  - iwwr 10y ago
    >Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like? They work when they're sitting on a mountain of oil, or Singapore's equivalent: a shipping bottleneck. Sort-of, at some point corruption becomes intolerable, or the oil runs out (or becomes too cheap to pay for the oppression). That said, the Singapore comparison may be a little far-fetched, they resemble the West far more than the totalitarian Middle East states.
    - madelinecameron 10y ago
      Pretty sure Singapore gives the death penalty to drug dealers. Maybe even drug users, but I do know at some point the minimum punishment for any drug dealing was death.
      - PopsiclePete 10y ago
        You're going to have to provide a lot more than that one example to show me that Singapore is a "totalitarian" state. Just recently the entire State of Louisiana's "Justice" system was shown to be in cahoots with the private prison industry, for example. And judging by the "Making a Murderer" documentary, our entire judicial process resembles a totalitarian police state circus much more than any other developed nation. Singapore is a "totalitarian" state? Fine, by your standards, the US is a 2nd rate Banana Republic.
- simonh 10y ago
  I agree Erdogan is using this as an excuse to seize complete control, but I don't buy the fake coup conspiracy theory. The military had no reason to agree to help Erdongan do something like that, and who would volunteer to get tried for Treason? The military never liked Erdogan and he's been locking up military leaders for 'plotting' against him for years. Some of them finally got fed up with him, but made a mess of it.
  - vegabook 10y ago
    the theorists are saying something more subtle happened. Either of: a) A coup-credible general or two or three, would have been bribed to trigger it, so that Erdogan could identify his enemies red-handed. The rest of the plotters in the army would have been under the impression a real coup was happening. This would explain the quick surrender of the bridge soldiers without a fight, because the horrible reality that they had been duped would have dawned upon them. Or possibly more likely: b) Noises and rumours were discretely circulated by his agents that Erdogan was preparing a large purge. This is credible because it is reported the list of all the 3000 judge firings, for example, was pre-prepared (as you would expect with such a large number). Tactical leaks to the right people of would have forced an immature half-baked coup plan hastily and prematurely to be executed, in panic and to protect themselves pre-emptively from said purge. This is the scenario where Erdogan basically raised the stakes in order to call their bluff, and thus flushed his enemies out into the open. Personally I find the consequences of this "coup" to be much too neatly convenient for Erdogan, the purge too pre-meditated in appearance and logistically well organised, for the finger of prime suspicion not to point directly at him.
    - simonh 10y ago
      Erdogan has been terrified there might be a coup for years. The idea that he'd deliberately manipulate part of the army into actually trying to overthrow him seems very thin because he'd be far too worried the coup would actually work. Could he really trust the instigators of the fake coup to back him and not go for a real coup? There's no way he'd ever take that risk, he doesn't trust anyone in the military. It's like asking someone with a pathological terror of guns to play Russian roulette. Yes you could win big, but consider the down side. The Middle East is full of conspiracy theories like this. Pretty much everything that ever happens is either an Israeli or American plot or both. I get that there are actually a lot of conspiracies and plotting going on in the region. But sometimes a failed coup is just a failed coup. I can kind of buy the big purge theory, but Erdogan would have had big lists of political enemies anyway whether he was actively plotting a purge or not. In fact hundreds of military personnel have already been tried an jailed for plotting and disloyalty over the years. Along with stripping opposition politicians of immunity and planning to try them for treason, he was already carrying out a step-by-step purge anyway. I don't think the coup plotters had any need to know about or believe in anything more in order to see what was happening and decide a coup was worth a shot.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
This is a particularly bad sign, and one that seems to support the worst fears about the future of Turkey. Ousting judges and other powerful figures in the government and military makes a certain ruthless sense, but intellectual purges seem to always be the ultimate canary in the social coalmine.
- Freak_NL 10y ago
  Working on reintroducing the death penalty is another. Its saddening to see how the large secular part of the population that has no desire to live in an Islamic state has little recourse but to keep quiet and hope nobody points a finger in their direction.
  - api 10y ago
    ... or leave. The USA and Europe should welcome them. The American Century was in many ways built on brain drain from totalitarian regimes. When Germany went insane we got quite a bit of the cream of the crop of German intellectuals including many of history's greatest physicists, the Bauhaus School of design, etc.
    - JoshTriplett 10y ago
      > ... or leave. You're assuming a country that broken won't also prevent emigration, and that everyone who wants to leave has the means to leave.
      - madelinecameron 10y ago
        True, Operation Paperclip wasn't exactly the, uh, most optional thing from what I understand.
      - egeozcan 10y ago
        The situation is bad, yes, but not war-zone-bad. Borders are open and non-political actors (well, most of them) get to keep their passports and freedom of mobility (obviously not all freedoms).
knowaveragejoe 10y ago
Asking? Also, I didn't know about this, but I guess I should be prepared for even more of it: > President Recep Tayyip Erdogan clashed with academics earlier this year, when more than 1,000 of them signed a petition calling for peace in the southeast and criticizing the government’s handling of the state’s long-running battle with its Kurdish population centered there. Many ended up on trial, while others lost their jobs.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  "Plomo o plata" is still technically a choice you're "asking" someone to make, and I don't get the sense that protection against coercion is a big thing right now for old Recep.
FreedomToCreate 10y ago
Punish the smartest of your population and good luck creating an economy that is built on any form of scientific progress. Utter sadness to watch a man destroy a country so he can consolidate power while destroying that which he wants power over.
Animats 10y ago
Erdoğan has been pushing primary education in Turkey to become more Islamic. Is this part of that? Turkey may be headed down the Islamic rathole. No country with an Islamic education system is very successful, because Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills. Some of the oil states survive by bringing in outsiders to do the work, but that only lasts until the oil runs out. Then they become failed states like Egypt and Syria.
- api 10y ago
  You are assuming that human welfare is the goal.
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  > Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills. I can't speak to the quality (or lack thereof) of Islamic education. But I feel this generally holds true for any fundamentalist religion-based education.
  - newacct23 10y ago
    Jesuit education manages to be good.
    - TulliusCicero 10y ago
      Is Jesuit education fundamentalist? I didn't think it was.
    - pbh101 10y ago
      It isn't very fundamentalist :)
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Almost exclusively because it's not about religion. Jesuits always were at the front of scientific achievements and embraced them really quickly.
    - Jtsummers 10y ago
kra34 10y ago
In the name of the general welfare, to protect the people's security, to achieve full equality and total stability, it is decreed for the duration of the national emergency that: Point One. All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail. The penalty shall be determined by the Unification Board, such Board to be appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources. All persons reaching the age of twenty-one shall report to the Unification Board, which shall assign them to where, in its opinion, their services will best serve the interests of the nation. Point Two. All industrial, commercial, manufacturing and business establishments of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth remain in operation, and the owners of such establishments shall not quit nor leave nor retire, nor close, sell or transfer their business, under penalty of the nationalization of their establishment and of any and all of their property. Point Three. All patents and copyrights, pertaining to any devices, inventions, formulas, processes and works of any nature whatsoever, shall be turned over to the nation as a patriotic emergency gift by means of Gift Certificates to be signed voluntarily by the owners of all such patents and copyrights. The Unification Board shall then license the use of such patents and copyrights to all applicants, equally and without discrimination, for the purpose of eliminating monopolistic practices, discarding obsolete products and making the best available to the whole nation. No trademarks, brand names or copyrighted titles shall be used. Every formerly patented product shall be known by a new name and sold by all manufacturers under the same name, such name to be selected by the Unification Board. All private trademarks and brand names are hereby abolished. Point Four. No new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever, not now on the market, shall be produced, invented, manufactured or sold after the date of this directive. The Office of Patents and Copyrights is hereby suspended.
- gherkin0 10y ago
  For those who don't get this reference (I didn't), it appears to be from Atlas Shrugged: http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289 http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_II https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summary-and-analysis/part-2-chapter-6 https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summ...
noobermin 10y ago
Atatürk must be turning in his grave. Can any Turks comment on this whole thing? EDIT: from DominikR, it seems the Turkish government is encouraging others to report online posts of anti-government sentiment. Be careful to post anonymously if you are willing to post from within Turkey.
- squidfood 10y ago
  Sure. It's horrible. I've been out-of-country for a while, but my (very anti-islamist) family is basically saying "best hope is ending up like Iran, worst hope is Syria". There are continuing widespread, scary daily rallies of Islamist-supporters whipping up a frenzy, and secularists are completely cowed with no way forward. The secularist state is being completely dismantled.
  - mathattack 10y ago
    Approximately 10 years ago a colleague of mine said, "Visit Turkey now, it's headed towards Iran. All the business people are visiting Mosques to get blessings on their deals." It seemed alarmist, and for much of the past 10 years I laughed at how wrong he was. Whoops!
  - kyriakos 10y ago
    If secularists take the streets it will eventually turn into a Syria situation. If they do nothing Turkey will become the new Iran.
- 019230191 10y ago
  Does HN allow account creation via Tor? Will you be flagged in Turkey if you use Tor?
  - DominikR 10y ago
    The Turkish government has already called for reporting to the police (with screenshot) all anti-government statements on Twitter and Facebook by Turks. So yes, I expect that many dissenting civilians will get into trouble.
DominikR 10y ago
It is clear to me that the West wanted Erdogan gone (for good reasons) although I'm not insinuating that the US had any part in the failed coup. But after these extensive purges it will be basically impossible to remove the elite that rose with Erdogan for the next decades, of that much I'm sure. History has shown again and again that purges are a cruel but still extremely effective tool. After this there will be no opposition left. I even expect that Turkey will leave NATO within the next years and get closer to Russia/China/Iran.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Pica_soO 10y ago
Imagine to sit in such a parliament, and the vote for the reintroduction of the death penalty comes up. Do you vote for it? If you don't vote for it- you surely get on El presidents list. If you vote for it, you might get on that list... later. Imagine one would send out a fake "purge" list with nearly everyone in parliament on it. Robespierre rule ended that way. Thus the Madman, enters his final stage.
edko 10y ago
Soon, it will be known that Galatasaray was behind the coup too.
aaronheid 10y ago
Ruling party is purging all members and supporters of Gulen movement which has been involved in unsuccessful Coup attempt, many illegals activities, faking university, military school, government job enterance tests. Technically one can not call it removing opponents because no competing political party member is involved in the purge. As a person who grew up in Turkey and had visited Gulen movements university preparation courses and joined their after school tuitions, I wholeheartedly support this purge. We should have done this ten years ago.
gumby 10y ago
Viktor Orbán's Hungarian dream! In his case he doesn't even have a majority, simply a plurality. But it was enough to purge the press and neuter the judiciary. And if you haven't read it, this is a timely read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here
ajmurmann 10y ago
This to me again pushes the question when it's OK to overthrow a democratically elected government. All western governments and even the Turkish opposition came out against the coup because it was "undemocratic". However, I believe there is definitely a line somewhere that a democratically elected government cannot cross without losing legitimacy and making a coup the right thing to do regardless of the remaining popular support. Had Erdogan crossed that line? If so, what was that line? If he didn't cross it what would be that line. I'm sure we all can agree that there is such s line since we probably all can agree that Hitler crossed it although I'm not sure in his case where exactly that line was either. Maybe when he dismantled the parliament? Maybe earlier?
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  Hitler was democratically elected. If you oppose any coup that's undemocratic, then you necessarily have to oppose the attempted coups against Hitler. Hitler had great support among his people, even after he dismantled Parliament. After all, he was a strong leader for his country, and his people liked that, just like the Turkish people love Erdogan for the same. As for as crossing a line, because he was democratically elected, there's two lines to cross: 1) when he makes death camps and starts gassing large numbers of his own people (probably minorities like the Kurds, or various secularists), and 2) when he invades some other country. In WWII, other nations only finally did something after Germany invaded too many countries (they gave him a pass on Poland, saying "we'll have peace in our time!" by appeasing him). They didn't care about the death camps, until after they defeated Germany and then decided to punish them for those. Just like they didn't care about the genocide in Rwanda. I imagine the situation with Turkey will be much the same.
  - bluejekyll 10y ago
    > they gave him a pass on Poland Um, the invasion of Poland was what caused England to declare war, and ask France to do the same.
    - CPLX 10y ago
      Presumably he's thinking of Czechoslovakia?
gonvaled 10y ago
Sadly, this could have been avoided 20-15 years ago when Turkey was pretty liberal and aproaching the EU. This has been the biggest mistake of the EU history: letting the right declare it a christian club, and thus losing both a moderate islamic country and a bridge to the middle east. Erdogan understood long ago that Turkey would never be accepted in the EU (even with big pressure coming from USA and UK) and has used the EU membership as a bargaining chip. Now the membership option is openly dead, and Erdogan can proceed with his fundamentalist agenda. Also, having been clearly betrayed by EU and OTAN in this military coup, he really has nothing to worry about anymore. Turkey will be out of NATO soon, and it will become a Russia ally. What a blunder the west is playing: only 25 years after the URSS collapse, and instead of integrating Russia into the global institucions, the USA decided to proffit the strategic advantage to expand and provoke. We have managed to turn the possibility of true global integration, collaboration and progress into a new cold (actually warm and soon hot) war.
- kyriakos 10y ago
  Easily forgotten but Turkey is occupying an EU members land.
  - cloudjacker 10y ago
    elaborate?
    - kyriakos 10y ago
      Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 and is still holding 1/3 of northern part of the island. In the meantime 300000 settlers from Turkey were placed in the occupied areas changing its demographics (who are basically now more than the Turkish Cypriots the invasion was supposed to protect). Turkish Cypriots are culturally different from mainland Turks (they are described as the most progressive Muslim population in the world). The island's internationally recognised government in the south (the Republic of Cyprus) is a full member of the EU since 2003 and can veto Turkey's accession. In the meantime Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus and that's one of the reasons negotiations with EU have been on halt for years now. In detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
bpodgursky 10y ago
The only upside of Turkey overtly collapsing is that nobody will be able to pretend anymore there are real examples of functioning Muslim democracies. Pretty sad, given what it used to be.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  This is a catastrophe! If muslims do not make it into the modern era, what are the alternatives? We can not build walls between blocks, so perpetual war is the only answer. Losing Turkey is even worse than losing the UK - and both are probably connected: Turkey is abusing a weakened EU. Collaboration and compromise is falling apart: welcome to BoJo's future, where everything is a trade and people have no rights.
  - pas 10y ago
    I think the loss of civil liberties in Poland are worse than any kind of Brexit in a sense. Though both signal a fucked up populace. Just as submitting to a supernatural being that so far provided 0 bit of its existence. Eventually things will have to give. Navigating our increasingly global, complex, many-faceted, and all in all stranger world requires firm roots in rationality, of course, only if one wants to really get somewhere not just hide from the hard problems of life. So far, it seems, we have billions of people very much reluctant to face this reality. Fighting tooth and nail against every kind of revelation, instead butchering reality to make it fit to their worldview.
sa-mao 10y ago
This entire thread and the common trends in western media makes me think that Turkey will be soon destroyed, and will be joining other failed countries. Clearly not by raw force since this military coup failed to achieve his goals. I will always be amazed how the west manage to slaughter third world countries and still has political support from the people.
- gwright 10y ago
  Your last sentence has an implied assumption that 'third world countries' have no independent agency, that their success or failure is derived primarily from 'the West'. Isn't it possible that the more direct cause of success or failure are the circumstances and choices made by the people within these countries?
  - sa-mao 10y ago
    What you are saying is definitely true. People in third world countries made over the past many bad decisions, and I think that is mostly due to the lack of education, and an absence of honorable ruling class. But still the west is playing a big role in that matter too. those countries are still maintaining bad influence over their colonies or areas of interest. Draining at the same time human and financial wealth crucial for these countries to rise as decent nations. Mallence give an interesting talk on that matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvNp9gHjfk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvNp9gHjfk
knowaveragejoe 10y ago
How is this story so popular yet already fallen off the front page after 2 hours?
- jacobolus 10y ago
  Any time comments outnumber upvotes, a “flamewar” detector is triggered, and the discussion drops off the front page.
  - knowaveragejoe 10y ago
    Seems potentially useful in some cases but overall obvious as to how it would garner false positives. Basically limits things to 1 comment per person who upvoted.
PopsiclePete 10y ago
Pol Pot also didn't like the intellectuals. In general, the intelligentsia is always troublesome for Despots. They're usually one of the first groups to be purged. Turkey is firmly bent on following Iran's lead. Ladies and Gentlemen - Ayatollah Supreme Leader Sultan Erdogan I, The Glorious, The Ever-Wise, Founder of the Modern Islamic Republic of Turkey!

126 points by sethbannon 10y ago

"Democracy is like a tram. You use it to get to you destination, and then you get off" - Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The West was seriously duped by this guy. I remember The Economist's self-deluded/deceitful decade-long, apologetic editorial line, never letting a mention of the islamist AKP go unqualified with the adjective "mildly" (read: "market friendly"), and it is ironic that one of the most effective Brexit camp scare tactics was Turkish EU accession, when it was Britain under Blair and Cameron who were the most vociferous advocates of the policy in the first place. The fix is in. This "coup" is a transparent manipulation by Erdogan so that he might grab absolute power. Who knows what havoc he will now wreak in the region, and in Europe, with it.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
Oh, thank goodness that he doesn't fundamentally misunderstand the concept or anything! moans
- vegabook 10y ago
  Reminds me of the bitter colonialists' quip during the period of African independence: "one man one vote. Once" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote#One_man.2C_one_vote.2C_once https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote#One_man.2C_o...
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    Or Terry Pratchett on the Patrician: "Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man, he had the Vote." (Mort, Terry Pratchett)
  - hx87 10y ago
    That was the /anti/ colonialists, I believe.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      I've mostly heard it in echoes referring to later events, and am not clear on the origins, but intuitively it makes the most sense as a statement by the opponents of decolonialization commenting on the likely results of democratic elections after the departure of the colonial authorities, so it makes sense for it to be the colonialists rather than the anti-colonialists.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
FreedomToCreate 10y ago
Is there a link to this quote?
- stdgy 10y ago
  Earliest I can find is a NYTimes reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/the-east-in-the-west.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/the-east-in-the-w... Search for streetcar.
api 10y ago
He made GDP go up. The West has also spent the past decade and a half fawning over the genius of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA for the same reason. Look into their glorious human rights record, or the level of inequality there for that matter. Makes the USA look like an egalitarian utopia. Dubai is another one. Look at those skyscrapers! What a dynamic economy! Never mind the slave labor and the caste system. I'd throw Singapore in too. They're nowhere near as bad as the PLA or Dubai in practice but they are essentially totalitarian at heart. But the numbers look good and the streets are clean so it's okay. Side note: One thing that's disillusioned me about libertarianism is that the past 30-ish years of history seem to have proven that capitalism and economic health are absolutely compatible with totalitarianism. IMHO the Randian notion that the two are at odds and that a dynamic economy requires freedom and justice has been empirically proven wrong. Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like?
- iwwr 10y ago
  >Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like? They work when they're sitting on a mountain of oil, or Singapore's equivalent: a shipping bottleneck. Sort-of, at some point corruption becomes intolerable, or the oil runs out (or becomes too cheap to pay for the oppression). That said, the Singapore comparison may be a little far-fetched, they resemble the West far more than the totalitarian Middle East states.
  - madelinecameron 10y ago
    Pretty sure Singapore gives the death penalty to drug dealers. Maybe even drug users, but I do know at some point the minimum punishment for any drug dealing was death.
    - PopsiclePete 10y ago
      You're going to have to provide a lot more than that one example to show me that Singapore is a "totalitarian" state. Just recently the entire State of Louisiana's "Justice" system was shown to be in cahoots with the private prison industry, for example. And judging by the "Making a Murderer" documentary, our entire judicial process resembles a totalitarian police state circus much more than any other developed nation. Singapore is a "totalitarian" state? Fine, by your standards, the US is a 2nd rate Banana Republic.
simonh 10y ago
I agree Erdogan is using this as an excuse to seize complete control, but I don't buy the fake coup conspiracy theory. The military had no reason to agree to help Erdongan do something like that, and who would volunteer to get tried for Treason? The military never liked Erdogan and he's been locking up military leaders for 'plotting' against him for years. Some of them finally got fed up with him, but made a mess of it.
- vegabook 10y ago
  the theorists are saying something more subtle happened. Either of: a) A coup-credible general or two or three, would have been bribed to trigger it, so that Erdogan could identify his enemies red-handed. The rest of the plotters in the army would have been under the impression a real coup was happening. This would explain the quick surrender of the bridge soldiers without a fight, because the horrible reality that they had been duped would have dawned upon them. Or possibly more likely: b) Noises and rumours were discretely circulated by his agents that Erdogan was preparing a large purge. This is credible because it is reported the list of all the 3000 judge firings, for example, was pre-prepared (as you would expect with such a large number). Tactical leaks to the right people of would have forced an immature half-baked coup plan hastily and prematurely to be executed, in panic and to protect themselves pre-emptively from said purge. This is the scenario where Erdogan basically raised the stakes in order to call their bluff, and thus flushed his enemies out into the open. Personally I find the consequences of this "coup" to be much too neatly convenient for Erdogan, the purge too pre-meditated in appearance and logistically well organised, for the finger of prime suspicion not to point directly at him.
  - simonh 10y ago
    Erdogan has been terrified there might be a coup for years. The idea that he'd deliberately manipulate part of the army into actually trying to overthrow him seems very thin because he'd be far too worried the coup would actually work. Could he really trust the instigators of the fake coup to back him and not go for a real coup? There's no way he'd ever take that risk, he doesn't trust anyone in the military. It's like asking someone with a pathological terror of guns to play Russian roulette. Yes you could win big, but consider the down side. The Middle East is full of conspiracy theories like this. Pretty much everything that ever happens is either an Israeli or American plot or both. I get that there are actually a lot of conspiracies and plotting going on in the region. But sometimes a failed coup is just a failed coup. I can kind of buy the big purge theory, but Erdogan would have had big lists of political enemies anyway whether he was actively plotting a purge or not. In fact hundreds of military personnel have already been tried an jailed for plotting and disloyalty over the years. Along with stripping opposition politicians of immunity and planning to try them for treason, he was already carrying out a step-by-step purge anyway. I don't think the coup plotters had any need to know about or believe in anything more in order to see what was happening and decide a coup was worth a shot.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

This is a particularly bad sign, and one that seems to support the worst fears about the future of Turkey. Ousting judges and other powerful figures in the government and military makes a certain ruthless sense, but intellectual purges seem to always be the ultimate canary in the social coalmine.

Freak_NL 10y ago
Working on reintroducing the death penalty is another. Its saddening to see how the large secular part of the population that has no desire to live in an Islamic state has little recourse but to keep quiet and hope nobody points a finger in their direction.
- api 10y ago
  ... or leave. The USA and Europe should welcome them. The American Century was in many ways built on brain drain from totalitarian regimes. When Germany went insane we got quite a bit of the cream of the crop of German intellectuals including many of history's greatest physicists, the Bauhaus School of design, etc.
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    > ... or leave. You're assuming a country that broken won't also prevent emigration, and that everyone who wants to leave has the means to leave.
    - madelinecameron 10y ago
      True, Operation Paperclip wasn't exactly the, uh, most optional thing from what I understand.
    - egeozcan 10y ago
      The situation is bad, yes, but not war-zone-bad. Borders are open and non-political actors (well, most of them) get to keep their passports and freedom of mobility (obviously not all freedoms).

knowaveragejoe 10y ago

Asking? Also, I didn't know about this, but I guess I should be prepared for even more of it: > President Recep Tayyip Erdogan clashed with academics earlier this year, when more than 1,000 of them signed a petition calling for peace in the southeast and criticizing the government’s handling of the state’s long-running battle with its Kurdish population centered there. Many ended up on trial, while others lost their jobs.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
"Plomo o plata" is still technically a choice you're "asking" someone to make, and I don't get the sense that protection against coercion is a big thing right now for old Recep.

FreedomToCreate 10y ago

Punish the smartest of your population and good luck creating an economy that is built on any form of scientific progress. Utter sadness to watch a man destroy a country so he can consolidate power while destroying that which he wants power over.

Animats 10y ago

Erdoğan has been pushing primary education in Turkey to become more Islamic. Is this part of that? Turkey may be headed down the Islamic rathole. No country with an Islamic education system is very successful, because Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills. Some of the oil states survive by bringing in outsiders to do the work, but that only lasts until the oil runs out. Then they become failed states like Egypt and Syria.

api 10y ago
You are assuming that human welfare is the goal.
Jtsummers 10y ago
> Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills. I can't speak to the quality (or lack thereof) of Islamic education. But I feel this generally holds true for any fundamentalist religion-based education.
- newacct23 10y ago
  Jesuit education manages to be good.
  - TulliusCicero 10y ago
    Is Jesuit education fundamentalist? I didn't think it was.
  - pbh101 10y ago
    It isn't very fundamentalist :)
  - gambiting 10y ago
    Almost exclusively because it's not about religion. Jesuits always were at the front of scientific achievements and embraced them really quickly.
  - Jtsummers 10y ago

kra34 10y ago

In the name of the general welfare, to protect the people's security, to achieve full equality and total stability, it is decreed for the duration of the national emergency that: Point One. All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail. The penalty shall be determined by the Unification Board, such Board to be appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources. All persons reaching the age of twenty-one shall report to the Unification Board, which shall assign them to where, in its opinion, their services will best serve the interests of the nation. Point Two. All industrial, commercial, manufacturing and business establishments of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth remain in operation, and the owners of such establishments shall not quit nor leave nor retire, nor close, sell or transfer their business, under penalty of the nationalization of their establishment and of any and all of their property. Point Three. All patents and copyrights, pertaining to any devices, inventions, formulas, processes and works of any nature whatsoever, shall be turned over to the nation as a patriotic emergency gift by means of Gift Certificates to be signed voluntarily by the owners of all such patents and copyrights. The Unification Board shall then license the use of such patents and copyrights to all applicants, equally and without discrimination, for the purpose of eliminating monopolistic practices, discarding obsolete products and making the best available to the whole nation. No trademarks, brand names or copyrighted titles shall be used. Every formerly patented product shall be known by a new name and sold by all manufacturers under the same name, such name to be selected by the Unification Board. All private trademarks and brand names are hereby abolished. Point Four. No new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever, not now on the market, shall be produced, invented, manufactured or sold after the date of this directive. The Office of Patents and Copyrights is hereby suspended.

gherkin0 10y ago
For those who don't get this reference (I didn't), it appears to be from Atlas Shrugged: http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289 http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_II https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summary-and-analysis/part-2-chapter-6 https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summ...

noobermin 10y ago

Atatürk must be turning in his grave. Can any Turks comment on this whole thing? EDIT: from DominikR, it seems the Turkish government is encouraging others to report online posts of anti-government sentiment. Be careful to post anonymously if you are willing to post from within Turkey.

squidfood 10y ago
Sure. It's horrible. I've been out-of-country for a while, but my (very anti-islamist) family is basically saying "best hope is ending up like Iran, worst hope is Syria". There are continuing widespread, scary daily rallies of Islamist-supporters whipping up a frenzy, and secularists are completely cowed with no way forward. The secularist state is being completely dismantled.
- mathattack 10y ago
  Approximately 10 years ago a colleague of mine said, "Visit Turkey now, it's headed towards Iran. All the business people are visiting Mosques to get blessings on their deals." It seemed alarmist, and for much of the past 10 years I laughed at how wrong he was. Whoops!
- kyriakos 10y ago
  If secularists take the streets it will eventually turn into a Syria situation. If they do nothing Turkey will become the new Iran.
019230191 10y ago
Does HN allow account creation via Tor? Will you be flagged in Turkey if you use Tor?
- DominikR 10y ago
  The Turkish government has already called for reporting to the police (with screenshot) all anti-government statements on Twitter and Facebook by Turks. So yes, I expect that many dissenting civilians will get into trouble.

DominikR 10y ago

It is clear to me that the West wanted Erdogan gone (for good reasons) although I'm not insinuating that the US had any part in the failed coup. But after these extensive purges it will be basically impossible to remove the elite that rose with Erdogan for the next decades, of that much I'm sure. History has shown again and again that purges are a cruel but still extremely effective tool. After this there will be no opposition left. I even expect that Turkey will leave NATO within the next years and get closer to Russia/China/Iran.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Pica_soO 10y ago

Imagine to sit in such a parliament, and the vote for the reintroduction of the death penalty comes up. Do you vote for it? If you don't vote for it- you surely get on El presidents list. If you vote for it, you might get on that list... later. Imagine one would send out a fake "purge" list with nearly everyone in parliament on it. Robespierre rule ended that way. Thus the Madman, enters his final stage.

edko 10y ago

Soon, it will be known that Galatasaray was behind the coup too.

aaronheid 10y ago

Ruling party is purging all members and supporters of Gulen movement which has been involved in unsuccessful Coup attempt, many illegals activities, faking university, military school, government job enterance tests. Technically one can not call it removing opponents because no competing political party member is involved in the purge. As a person who grew up in Turkey and had visited Gulen movements university preparation courses and joined their after school tuitions, I wholeheartedly support this purge. We should have done this ten years ago.

gumby 10y ago

Viktor Orbán's Hungarian dream! In his case he doesn't even have a majority, simply a plurality. But it was enough to purge the press and neuter the judiciary. And if you haven't read it, this is a timely read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here

ajmurmann 10y ago

This to me again pushes the question when it's OK to overthrow a democratically elected government. All western governments and even the Turkish opposition came out against the coup because it was "undemocratic". However, I believe there is definitely a line somewhere that a democratically elected government cannot cross without losing legitimacy and making a coup the right thing to do regardless of the remaining popular support. Had Erdogan crossed that line? If so, what was that line? If he didn't cross it what would be that line. I'm sure we all can agree that there is such s line since we probably all can agree that Hitler crossed it although I'm not sure in his case where exactly that line was either. Maybe when he dismantled the parliament? Maybe earlier?

Grishnakh 10y ago
Hitler was democratically elected. If you oppose any coup that's undemocratic, then you necessarily have to oppose the attempted coups against Hitler. Hitler had great support among his people, even after he dismantled Parliament. After all, he was a strong leader for his country, and his people liked that, just like the Turkish people love Erdogan for the same. As for as crossing a line, because he was democratically elected, there's two lines to cross: 1) when he makes death camps and starts gassing large numbers of his own people (probably minorities like the Kurds, or various secularists), and 2) when he invades some other country. In WWII, other nations only finally did something after Germany invaded too many countries (they gave him a pass on Poland, saying "we'll have peace in our time!" by appeasing him). They didn't care about the death camps, until after they defeated Germany and then decided to punish them for those. Just like they didn't care about the genocide in Rwanda. I imagine the situation with Turkey will be much the same.
- bluejekyll 10y ago
  > they gave him a pass on Poland Um, the invasion of Poland was what caused England to declare war, and ask France to do the same.
  - CPLX 10y ago
    Presumably he's thinking of Czechoslovakia?

gonvaled 10y ago

Sadly, this could have been avoided 20-15 years ago when Turkey was pretty liberal and aproaching the EU. This has been the biggest mistake of the EU history: letting the right declare it a christian club, and thus losing both a moderate islamic country and a bridge to the middle east. Erdogan understood long ago that Turkey would never be accepted in the EU (even with big pressure coming from USA and UK) and has used the EU membership as a bargaining chip. Now the membership option is openly dead, and Erdogan can proceed with his fundamentalist agenda. Also, having been clearly betrayed by EU and OTAN in this military coup, he really has nothing to worry about anymore. Turkey will be out of NATO soon, and it will become a Russia ally. What a blunder the west is playing: only 25 years after the URSS collapse, and instead of integrating Russia into the global institucions, the USA decided to proffit the strategic advantage to expand and provoke. We have managed to turn the possibility of true global integration, collaboration and progress into a new cold (actually warm and soon hot) war.

kyriakos 10y ago
Easily forgotten but Turkey is occupying an EU members land.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  elaborate?
  - kyriakos 10y ago
    Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 and is still holding 1/3 of northern part of the island. In the meantime 300000 settlers from Turkey were placed in the occupied areas changing its demographics (who are basically now more than the Turkish Cypriots the invasion was supposed to protect). Turkish Cypriots are culturally different from mainland Turks (they are described as the most progressive Muslim population in the world). The island's internationally recognised government in the south (the Republic of Cyprus) is a full member of the EU since 2003 and can veto Turkey's accession. In the meantime Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus and that's one of the reasons negotiations with EU have been on halt for years now. In detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

bpodgursky 10y ago

The only upside of Turkey overtly collapsing is that nobody will be able to pretend anymore there are real examples of functioning Muslim democracies. Pretty sad, given what it used to be.

gonvaled 10y ago
This is a catastrophe! If muslims do not make it into the modern era, what are the alternatives? We can not build walls between blocks, so perpetual war is the only answer. Losing Turkey is even worse than losing the UK - and both are probably connected: Turkey is abusing a weakened EU. Collaboration and compromise is falling apart: welcome to BoJo's future, where everything is a trade and people have no rights.
- pas 10y ago
  I think the loss of civil liberties in Poland are worse than any kind of Brexit in a sense. Though both signal a fucked up populace. Just as submitting to a supernatural being that so far provided 0 bit of its existence. Eventually things will have to give. Navigating our increasingly global, complex, many-faceted, and all in all stranger world requires firm roots in rationality, of course, only if one wants to really get somewhere not just hide from the hard problems of life. So far, it seems, we have billions of people very much reluctant to face this reality. Fighting tooth and nail against every kind of revelation, instead butchering reality to make it fit to their worldview.

sa-mao 10y ago

This entire thread and the common trends in western media makes me think that Turkey will be soon destroyed, and will be joining other failed countries. Clearly not by raw force since this military coup failed to achieve his goals. I will always be amazed how the west manage to slaughter third world countries and still has political support from the people.

gwright 10y ago
Your last sentence has an implied assumption that 'third world countries' have no independent agency, that their success or failure is derived primarily from 'the West'. Isn't it possible that the more direct cause of success or failure are the circumstances and choices made by the people within these countries?
- sa-mao 10y ago
  What you are saying is definitely true. People in third world countries made over the past many bad decisions, and I think that is mostly due to the lack of education, and an absence of honorable ruling class. But still the west is playing a big role in that matter too. those countries are still maintaining bad influence over their colonies or areas of interest. Draining at the same time human and financial wealth crucial for these countries to rise as decent nations. Mallence give an interesting talk on that matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvNp9gHjfk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvNp9gHjfk

knowaveragejoe 10y ago

How is this story so popular yet already fallen off the front page after 2 hours?

jacobolus 10y ago
Any time comments outnumber upvotes, a “flamewar” detector is triggered, and the discussion drops off the front page.
- knowaveragejoe 10y ago
  Seems potentially useful in some cases but overall obvious as to how it would garner false positives. Basically limits things to 1 comment per person who upvoted.

PopsiclePete 10y ago

Pol Pot also didn't like the intellectuals. In general, the intelligentsia is always troublesome for Despots. They're usually one of the first groups to be purged. Turkey is firmly bent on following Iran's lead. Ladies and Gentlemen - Ayatollah Supreme Leader Sultan Erdogan I, The Glorious, The Ever-Wise, Founder of the Modern Islamic Republic of Turkey!