7 ms·

I don't know what's meant by "tech workers" but as a programmer I can't really think of a better place with more jobs, more events, more everything that matters

by mevile 10y ago

I don't know what's meant by "tech workers" but as a programmer I can't really think of a better place with more jobs, more events, more everything that matters. All my former coworkers and friends live here. There are meetups all the time. I don't see how it's losing its luster. Yes it's expensive, but I BART in from a place with cheaper housing costs. I don't have to live in downtown SF to work there.

atom-morgan 10y ago
A lot of the jobs I see offer surprisingly low pay and I'm not even factoring in cost of living. I've seen salaries out in SV that I wouldn't even consider in Atlanta and I don't come close to spending near half of my paychecks on rent.
- mevile 10y ago
  Pay depends on the stage a startup is in if you want to work at a startup. Very early stage startups can pay very little, but you don't work at a startup like that for money. Google, Facebook, and even companies like New Relic, Zen Payroll, thousands of other companies easily pay 6 figure salaries to engineers. Starting out pay for new engineers is close to 6 figures. I don't know maybe that's low for you, but it is enough for me.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > you don't work at a startup like that for money Then why the hell do you? To make someone else rich? To help VCs get a few extra dollars? Slave away with 60 hours weeks for years only to see an exit that nets you less than what you could have made working for any of the big companies? So that you can experience wanting to move on after a few years but worrying about losing stock options? SO you can sit around wondering when the company is going to IPO and you can actually make some cash? (meanwhile the CEO cashed out years ago, and doesn't want to IPO ever)
    - Avshalom 10y ago
      Nah man, you work at startups because home delivery parrot rental service is gonna like disrupt the industry man. That's where all the cutting edge interesting problems to solve are.
      - pdimitar 10y ago
        Awesome sarcasm, made me laugh. Thanks! Seriously though, I feel the tone and attitude you're satirizing are describing the startup culture pretty well.
    - mevile 10y ago
      Early stage startups don't have much VC funding if any. If there was VC funding then you can expect normal pay rates. As to why? I work at small startups because I love the challenge, I love working as part of a small team, I love being close to the customer and making a difference. I rather work there than phone it in at a big company for a bigger paycheck. My work is a big part of my life, I want to do things I care about. The equity has never made up the loss of salary. As an employee your company has to become really, really big for it to be life changing and that's incredibly unlikely to happen for all but one or two startups every few years and there are many thousands of startups. As an employee working at a small startup can't be about the money, if it is then you are wasting your time.
    - xkcd-sucks 10y ago
      Ideally you touch every part of the stack, learn some new stuff, play fast and loose with everything, cash out leaving your '10x developer' code for someone else to maintain, and tell people you have experience with a million trending technologies while omitting the superficiality of said experiences. It's all about the lifestyle.
      - mevile 10y ago
        I should have read the entire comment before upvoting. Just subtract -1 in your head when you see your upvote count.
    - 10y ago
  - muzz 10y ago
    Not just the two startups you mentioned, but starting salary for almost every funded startup is minimum 6 figures for new engineers these days.
- poink 10y ago
  From my limited experience with the tech scene here, Atlanta seems to have a ridiculously good compensation to cost of living ratio.
yladiz 10y ago
While there may be more jobs in the Bay Area, it's always a battle of compromises when you compare it to another place. For example, somewhere like Boston may have less jobs, but the rent/cost of living isn't as extremely high as it is in somewhere like San Francisco or a lot of places in the Bay Area, which means you can save more money for things like retirement, vacation, etc., and it has easy access to somewhere like NYC, meaning it may be a better fit for the people they interviewed. Friends can always be found where you go, and meet ups can be found in varying degrees, so the main appeal to staying in the Bay Area is mostly going to be job opportunities and networking, both of which are available in other cities like Boston, NYC, and Austin.
- titanoceanus 10y ago
  I know you were only using it as an example, but does Boston have a thriving startup community on par to SF/Austin/NYC?
  - yladiz 10y ago
    I'm not sure; I would guess it's on similar levels to somewhere like Austin or NYC since it's in the same grouping as it in the article, but I don't know first hand.
  - Xcelerate 10y ago
    Over the last year, I've seen Austin go from being mentioned as "second tier" startup city, to now being mentioned alongside SF and NYC. Has it really grown that much in such a short time? As someone just about to finish grad school, I may consider checking it out some more.
    - natrius 10y ago
      Depends on what you're looking for. I live in Austin and I love it. There are plenty of interesting companies to work for, and you'll live in a better home in a better neighborhood for your budget. Austinites are generally fantastic, welcoming people. It's probably a good place for you. Here are the exceptions: 1. Read https://breakoutlist.com/ https://breakoutlist.com/. If that argument matches your motivations, go to San Francisco. 2. Do you have a (relatively) niche interest, like VR/AR, machine learning, or blockchains? Go where those companies are: San Francisco and New York. 3. Do you want to experience a city where everything happens? Go to New York. Otherwise, pick Austin. Maybe Seattle depending on weather preferences and distance from friends and family.
codingdave 10y ago
"everything that matters" is quite subjective. I live in the mountains, with endless outdoor activity within minutes of my place. I can drive to 8 national parks and monuments in half a day. I have a great place to raise my kids, and I am NOT surrounded by tech events and meetups... I am surrounded by people who like to spend our free time outside. All of those things matter to me. So whether or not Silicon Valley is important to you has everything to do with what you value in life. As the article said, there is a big generation gap here. I'm an older coder who doesn't give a crap how many opportunities are around because I only need one at a time. And with remote work becoming ever more prevalent, I just don't foresee ever having a desire to move to SV. I live where I can lead the life I want, not work the job I want.
- clamprecht 10y ago
  Sounds awesome, where do you live?
  - foobarian 10y ago
    Looking at this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3f/bb/7f/3fbb7f0fe1e48bf14ec270bd388067e4.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3f/bb/7f/3fbb7f0fe... I'm thinking Seattle area is likely.
    - codingdave 10y ago
      Nah, Central Utah -- there are also a couple national monuments nearby that are not shown on that map.
      - batbomb 10y ago
        I've lived in both places (SLC, the Four Corners, SF, Menlo Park) and spent many weeks at a time in Delta, UT, in addition to places in New Mexico. I'd love to live in Torrey and I'd move back to SLC if I could get a job in an industry that doesn't suck, but all things considered I'd take the bay area over anywhere in Utah.
ctvo 10y ago
I went to all those tech meetups and events when I was in the Bay area. It wasn't that great for me. The topics covered tend to be basic (this is true for most presentations, they need to be able to appeal to a wider audience). Not only that, but the larger meetups live streamed them or they were uploaded to Youtube later. The networking benefits are real, but is that worth the cost of living, commute, lack of options for housing?
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  This was a pleasant surprise about Sydney, Australia. The quality of tech talks is very good in my experience.
bdcravens 10y ago
> everything that matters I pay $1150 to lease a 1600 sqft house in Houston, and make more money than I'd make in the Bay, and control my stack instead of being a worker bee.
- s3r3nity 10y ago
  I find Houston to be ever more appealing as a number of my friend move over there and buy giant condos/houses for what would barely get you a box 2 hours south of San Jose.
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    Yeah, real estate is great. However, it doesn't have a culture that someone from San Jose would find appealing. Even though it's only a 3 hour drive, Houston isn't Austin. (though there's pockets, like Montrose) The heat is miserable in the summer, and the job market is somewhat narrow (more .NET and a fewer industries to pick from than you'll find elsewhere)
    - jamiesonbecker 10y ago
      Interestingly, Houston has more (live) theater seats than anywhere else except NYC.. tons of awesome museums, and the most racially/ethnically diverse large metro area in the country (which makes it a great town for foodies) I love Austin, but it's probably arguable that its "culture" (in the art/culture sense of the word) even approaches Houston's. "Houston is one of only five cities in the United States with permanent professional resident companies in all of the major performing arts disciplines: opera, ballet, symphony, and theater" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Houston#Arts_and_theatre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Houston#Arts_and_th... And Houston is cheaper than Austin, too... but I've found Austin's tech scene to be slightly up on Houston's (if only because Austin is more compact and so getting around to the nearest meetup is a bit easier... also, Austin has a much better VC scene, but Houston does have a surprisingly large tech scene, even given that Houston is probably going to become the country's third-largest city.) http://www.businessinsider.com/r-americas-city-rankings-set-for-texas-sized-shake-up-houston-to-edge-past-chicago-2015-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/r-americas-city-rankings-set-... But bdcraven is right... modern here tends to mean .NET or Java at most of the larger Fortune 100 companies based here (mostly oil and gas, medicine, and finance.) You'll need a lot of air conditioning and maybe a swimming pool (or two) during the summer though.
the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
I think SF breaks down if younhave either children or you are coming from abroad and have no plans to settle in the states. I did the math more than once and it's not great. I can see the people by flying there too :)
eru 10y ago
They just miss a proper city around there. There's no NYC or Hong Kong close by.

by mevile 10y ago

atom-morgan 10y ago

A lot of the jobs I see offer surprisingly low pay and I'm not even factoring in cost of living. I've seen salaries out in SV that I wouldn't even consider in Atlanta and I don't come close to spending near half of my paychecks on rent.

mevile 10y ago
Pay depends on the stage a startup is in if you want to work at a startup. Very early stage startups can pay very little, but you don't work at a startup like that for money. Google, Facebook, and even companies like New Relic, Zen Payroll, thousands of other companies easily pay 6 figure salaries to engineers. Starting out pay for new engineers is close to 6 figures. I don't know maybe that's low for you, but it is enough for me.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > you don't work at a startup like that for money Then why the hell do you? To make someone else rich? To help VCs get a few extra dollars? Slave away with 60 hours weeks for years only to see an exit that nets you less than what you could have made working for any of the big companies? So that you can experience wanting to move on after a few years but worrying about losing stock options? SO you can sit around wondering when the company is going to IPO and you can actually make some cash? (meanwhile the CEO cashed out years ago, and doesn't want to IPO ever)
  - Avshalom 10y ago
    Nah man, you work at startups because home delivery parrot rental service is gonna like disrupt the industry man. That's where all the cutting edge interesting problems to solve are.
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      Awesome sarcasm, made me laugh. Thanks! Seriously though, I feel the tone and attitude you're satirizing are describing the startup culture pretty well.
  - mevile 10y ago
    Early stage startups don't have much VC funding if any. If there was VC funding then you can expect normal pay rates. As to why? I work at small startups because I love the challenge, I love working as part of a small team, I love being close to the customer and making a difference. I rather work there than phone it in at a big company for a bigger paycheck. My work is a big part of my life, I want to do things I care about. The equity has never made up the loss of salary. As an employee your company has to become really, really big for it to be life changing and that's incredibly unlikely to happen for all but one or two startups every few years and there are many thousands of startups. As an employee working at a small startup can't be about the money, if it is then you are wasting your time.
  - xkcd-sucks 10y ago
    Ideally you touch every part of the stack, learn some new stuff, play fast and loose with everything, cash out leaving your '10x developer' code for someone else to maintain, and tell people you have experience with a million trending technologies while omitting the superficiality of said experiences. It's all about the lifestyle.
    - mevile 10y ago
      I should have read the entire comment before upvoting. Just subtract -1 in your head when you see your upvote count.
  - 10y ago
- muzz 10y ago
  Not just the two startups you mentioned, but starting salary for almost every funded startup is minimum 6 figures for new engineers these days.
poink 10y ago
From my limited experience with the tech scene here, Atlanta seems to have a ridiculously good compensation to cost of living ratio.

yladiz 10y ago

While there may be more jobs in the Bay Area, it's always a battle of compromises when you compare it to another place. For example, somewhere like Boston may have less jobs, but the rent/cost of living isn't as extremely high as it is in somewhere like San Francisco or a lot of places in the Bay Area, which means you can save more money for things like retirement, vacation, etc., and it has easy access to somewhere like NYC, meaning it may be a better fit for the people they interviewed. Friends can always be found where you go, and meet ups can be found in varying degrees, so the main appeal to staying in the Bay Area is mostly going to be job opportunities and networking, both of which are available in other cities like Boston, NYC, and Austin.

titanoceanus 10y ago
I know you were only using it as an example, but does Boston have a thriving startup community on par to SF/Austin/NYC?
- yladiz 10y ago
  I'm not sure; I would guess it's on similar levels to somewhere like Austin or NYC since it's in the same grouping as it in the article, but I don't know first hand.
- Xcelerate 10y ago
  Over the last year, I've seen Austin go from being mentioned as "second tier" startup city, to now being mentioned alongside SF and NYC. Has it really grown that much in such a short time? As someone just about to finish grad school, I may consider checking it out some more.
  - natrius 10y ago
    Depends on what you're looking for. I live in Austin and I love it. There are plenty of interesting companies to work for, and you'll live in a better home in a better neighborhood for your budget. Austinites are generally fantastic, welcoming people. It's probably a good place for you. Here are the exceptions: 1. Read https://breakoutlist.com/ https://breakoutlist.com/. If that argument matches your motivations, go to San Francisco. 2. Do you have a (relatively) niche interest, like VR/AR, machine learning, or blockchains? Go where those companies are: San Francisco and New York. 3. Do you want to experience a city where everything happens? Go to New York. Otherwise, pick Austin. Maybe Seattle depending on weather preferences and distance from friends and family.

codingdave 10y ago

"everything that matters" is quite subjective. I live in the mountains, with endless outdoor activity within minutes of my place. I can drive to 8 national parks and monuments in half a day. I have a great place to raise my kids, and I am NOT surrounded by tech events and meetups... I am surrounded by people who like to spend our free time outside. All of those things matter to me. So whether or not Silicon Valley is important to you has everything to do with what you value in life. As the article said, there is a big generation gap here. I'm an older coder who doesn't give a crap how many opportunities are around because I only need one at a time. And with remote work becoming ever more prevalent, I just don't foresee ever having a desire to move to SV. I live where I can lead the life I want, not work the job I want.

clamprecht 10y ago
Sounds awesome, where do you live?
- foobarian 10y ago
  Looking at this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3f/bb/7f/3fbb7f0fe1e48bf14ec270bd388067e4.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3f/bb/7f/3fbb7f0fe... I'm thinking Seattle area is likely.
  - codingdave 10y ago
    Nah, Central Utah -- there are also a couple national monuments nearby that are not shown on that map.
    - batbomb 10y ago
      I've lived in both places (SLC, the Four Corners, SF, Menlo Park) and spent many weeks at a time in Delta, UT, in addition to places in New Mexico. I'd love to live in Torrey and I'd move back to SLC if I could get a job in an industry that doesn't suck, but all things considered I'd take the bay area over anywhere in Utah.

ctvo 10y ago

I went to all those tech meetups and events when I was in the Bay area. It wasn't that great for me. The topics covered tend to be basic (this is true for most presentations, they need to be able to appeal to a wider audience). Not only that, but the larger meetups live streamed them or they were uploaded to Youtube later. The networking benefits are real, but is that worth the cost of living, commute, lack of options for housing?

bbcbasic 10y ago
This was a pleasant surprise about Sydney, Australia. The quality of tech talks is very good in my experience.

bdcravens 10y ago

> everything that matters I pay $1150 to lease a 1600 sqft house in Houston, and make more money than I'd make in the Bay, and control my stack instead of being a worker bee.

s3r3nity 10y ago
I find Houston to be ever more appealing as a number of my friend move over there and buy giant condos/houses for what would barely get you a box 2 hours south of San Jose.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  Yeah, real estate is great. However, it doesn't have a culture that someone from San Jose would find appealing. Even though it's only a 3 hour drive, Houston isn't Austin. (though there's pockets, like Montrose) The heat is miserable in the summer, and the job market is somewhat narrow (more .NET and a fewer industries to pick from than you'll find elsewhere)
  - jamiesonbecker 10y ago
    Interestingly, Houston has more (live) theater seats than anywhere else except NYC.. tons of awesome museums, and the most racially/ethnically diverse large metro area in the country (which makes it a great town for foodies) I love Austin, but it's probably arguable that its "culture" (in the art/culture sense of the word) even approaches Houston's. "Houston is one of only five cities in the United States with permanent professional resident companies in all of the major performing arts disciplines: opera, ballet, symphony, and theater" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Houston#Arts_and_theatre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Houston#Arts_and_th... And Houston is cheaper than Austin, too... but I've found Austin's tech scene to be slightly up on Houston's (if only because Austin is more compact and so getting around to the nearest meetup is a bit easier... also, Austin has a much better VC scene, but Houston does have a surprisingly large tech scene, even given that Houston is probably going to become the country's third-largest city.) http://www.businessinsider.com/r-americas-city-rankings-set-for-texas-sized-shake-up-houston-to-edge-past-chicago-2015-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/r-americas-city-rankings-set-... But bdcraven is right... modern here tends to mean .NET or Java at most of the larger Fortune 100 companies based here (mostly oil and gas, medicine, and finance.) You'll need a lot of air conditioning and maybe a swimming pool (or two) during the summer though.

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

I think SF breaks down if younhave either children or you are coming from abroad and have no plans to settle in the states. I did the math more than once and it's not great. I can see the people by flying there too :)

eru 10y ago

They just miss a proper city around there. There's no NYC or Hong Kong close by.