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I have mixed feelings about this. I'm with you 100% on having the explicit opportunity to opt out of updates like this. That said, a large swath of Windows user

I have mixed feelings about this. I'm with you 100% on having the explicit opportunity to opt out of updates like this. That said, a large swath of Windows users are not nearly as technically literate as you and your mother are, and automatically helping people forward (if for nothing else, security fixes and ongoing support) is a Good Thing in my book (so long as it's free, and it is). There is no doubt there are cogent arguments against it. But when I think of the operating systems a lot of botnet computers are running on, I have a hard time not supporting automatic OS upgrades for non-power users.

SixSigma 10y ago
I wouldn't be upset if Windows 10 hadn't turned into a telemetry botnet for Microsoft. Edit: I see in other posts accusations of paranoia. But how can I not be paranoid when I cannot determine what is being transmitted.
- FussyZeus 10y ago
  ^ This. It's not THAT there is telemetry and "phoning home," it's the fact that Microsoft flat out REFUSES to be up front about what it's sending home, how they're anonymizing it, and why these things can't be 100% disabled. If you say nothing then your users will (and should) assume the worst.
  - 794CD01 10y ago
    Where have they refused to be up front about any of this? As far as I'm aware, they have detailed all of those things except how exactly they anonymize the data, which I haven't seen anyone specifically ask them about.
    - FussyZeus 10y ago
      There's no way to turn it off. It says it's turned off, and it's still sending shit to Redmond. That's unacceptable and deceptive. I do not use software that lies to me, period, paragraph.
      - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
        I suggest you check out Spybot Anti-Beacon. It will help you in turning some of those Telemetry services off. https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/
      - 794CD01 10y ago
        You can turn it off via group policy if you have windows enterprise. If you just want to complain that the cheaper version doesn't have the feature you want, and you don't want to pay the higher price for the version that does have it, that's your right, but I don't have much sympathy for that.
        nitrogen 10y ago
        Another sad example of pirates having it better than us legitimate users.
        FussyZeus 10y ago
        I have to pay to not be spied on? And you think that's acceptable?
        seanp2k2 10y ago
        You have to pay to have the option to not be spied on, because only the version designed to be used for serious business supports disabling the first-party tracking, because business users are important and home users are just another revenue channel. I now have even less moral issue with not paying to use Windows for personal use. Seriously, they should have just made it free for home users regardless of Win7 license state (I've had terrible luck with "upgraded" versions of Windows -- clean installs only for me, and yes I know about the Insider program and the exception to this...I didn't stay up on the news and I missed the "must be installed by" deadline).
        FussyZeus 10y ago
        If it makes you feel better, my mother was on an insider build because we figured she would get Windows either free or at a discount, and she ended up having to buy retail anyway.
    - curt15 10y ago
      Where does Microsoft explain what they are sending to domains like ad.doubleclick.net?
      - 794CD01 10y ago
        Exactly where you would expect to find it: the data use and access section of the technet article on the feature, and in the Windows privacy statement.
- GrumpyYoungMan 10y ago
  I take it that you don't use a smartphone, either, since you have no way of knowing what is transmitted either, either by the primary OS or the secondary radio OS. http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste... Or macOS (nee OS X), since Apple gathers telemetry as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11907060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11907060 Moreover, security researchers looking to make a name for themselves are crawling all over Windows. If they haven't found anything in the telemetry that makes headlines yet, most likely there's nothing to find. Paranoid or not, telemetry is already everywhere without you knowing what's being sent and it's here to stay. Singling out Windows is ridiculous.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - vetinari 10y ago
    > I take it that you don't use a smartphone, either, since you have no way of knowing what is transmitted either, either by the primary OS or the secondary radio OS. You know, two wrongs do not make one right. > Or macOS (nee OS X), since Apple gathers telemetry as well. In OSX, sending telemetry and crash reports is voluntary. It is being asked in the OOB wizard and is easily available in the Settings application. In consumer SKUs of Windows 10, that's not the case, sending telemetry is mandatory. > Paranoid or not, telemetry is already everywhere without you knowing what's being sent and it's here to stay. Too early to say. It may also break Microsoft's neck. > Singling out Windows is ridiculous. Biggest target. They have a great opportunity to lead by example - in the positive way.
  - whyoh 10y ago
    >If they haven't found anything in the telemetry that makes headlines yet, most likely there's nothing to find. There's plenty to be found and Microsoft isn't even hiding it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con... That data, even at the "Basic" level, is enough to be used for 'bad things'. And since it's on someone else's computer you can't know who has access to it, so you can assume the worst. >Singling out Windows is ridiculous. Just Windows 10. Because it's the only mainstream desktop OS with forced telemetry and no opt-out option.
givinguflac 10y ago
Support it if you want, but you seriously think it's OK for the PC to restart in the middle of a call? What if the user is doing something mission critical; it's acceptable to just wait an hour (or more likely several) to get back to work because "MS knows best"?? There is nothing to stop it from just doing it all over again either. I will never use Windows again because of this behavior.
- wvenable 10y ago
  I just did the Windows 10 upgrade on my laptop and at no point could I start the upgrade without explicitly clicking a button. In addition, the process starts by immediately rebooting (after downloading via Windows update and asking you to start it).
  - pdx 10y ago
    That's a really interesting story. Let me tell you another one. Both my wife's and my son's computers updated automatically, with no button presses on their parts, even after them pressing "do not update" on all the nag screens for the past several months.
    - wvenable 10y ago
      You at least have accept the license agreement, which is true of almost every piece of software. I've still got half my machines on Windows 7/8 and I haven't upgraded them yet. On this laptop I actually had it download Windows 10 but I wasn't ready to upgrade so I held it off for another week. I still had to press something to get it to start.
    - intopieces 10y ago
      On the pop-ups that appear on my Windows 7 machine, there is no button they says "Do Not Update"; both buttons (Update now, update later) lead the system to download and install Windows 10. That both of your users report explicitly clicking a button that references update makes me suspicious that they in fact just clicked the wrong button. Sneaky of Microsoft, but I'm having trouble buying these tales of the OS going rogue. I just haven't seen any way for that to happen.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
Those technically illiterate users are going to have trouble with Windows 10. My stepfather is in his 70s, and I had to help him set up the weather app - and it took me about ten minutes how to figure out how to set a default location! 10 is different enough from 7 that they're going to have to learn a lot of new habits - and while that's just the nature of modern life, some people are going to suffer significantly more than others. I believe there must be a better way of getting the less-literate people to consensually upgrade to Windows 10, without forcing it on them.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  I believe there must be a way of allowing people to live forever without growing old or dying. Unfortunately, neither of our beliefs are very helpful since we cannot describe an exact method for achieving our goals.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    Sure, but you can easily user-test and iterate changes to software without killing people or waiting 20 years to see if your changes are beneficial.
- PKop 10y ago
  Have you tried ChromeOS? My grandfather is in his mid 80's. I've been helping him with his computer(s) for years. In the last year, I switched him over to a Chromebook, after trying and failing to switch him to Windows 10 (wasn't compatible with his old computer)... and since everything he does involves websites and bookmarks anyways. It's the easiest time he's ever had using a computer. No random update notifications, adware popups, anti-virus subscription nags, etc. Nothing but a browser, which he knows how to use. I'd recommend it to anyone considered technically illiterate.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    I haven't, but I probably should. One problem is that they live halfway across the country, so I wouldn't be on hand to help him adjust to the new OS.
Someone1234 10y ago
I'm sympathetic both ways on this one. I think Microsoft went "too far" but I also agree that we don't want another "XP situation" with Windows 7. Effectively having 20%+ of the market on a super old OS holding back the industry and less secure. Microsoft claim they're planning to avoid this in the future by no longer releasing named new OS's, and instead just update Windows 10 for "free" forever. Basically the same as Apple's current model with MacOS. I guess how you fall on this topic is answered by the question: "Do the ends justify the means?"
- 15charlimit 10y ago
  > we don't want another "XP situation" with Windows 7 If Microsoft had really wanted to avoid that, they'd have made Windows 10 actually attractive to the end user and the tech people that would recommend it to the end user. Instead they jammed it chock-full of spyware and malware-tier garbage that nobody wants, and treat the installbase as a testbed for forced updates that could easily (and have) render machines inoperable. Windows 7 will become the next XP, and Microsoft has nobody to blame for it but themselves.
  - Pxtl 10y ago
    Oh come on, "spyware" is the same cloud-enabled search stuff that every OS is doing. To me the big problem with Windows 10 is that it's simply very buggy.
  - lloeki 10y ago
    > Instead they jammed it chock-full of spyware and malware-tier garbage that nobody wants Can people stop spreading this meme? Worst case, anonymized telemetry is hardly spyware. > Windows 10 actually attractive to the end user It is, regular people around me love it. > and the tech people that would recommend it to the end user. I (and many) do, if only because it is immensely better than sticking to Win7 whose non-extended support ends next year or something. > Microsoft has nobody to blame for it but themselves MS made a couple missteps, but people just love to blow whatever MS does way out of proportion (the same way they do for Apple, only for other points) so instead of having reasonable discourse, all we have is a pile of knee-jerk reactions (not even flamewars!) We get it, MS is bad, Apple is bad, Google is bad bad bad. Oh nasty corps. Probably end user should stick to pen+paper. EDIT: not even a dozen seconds and downvotes are pouring in. Is it still possible to have some reasonable talk instead of yelling at each other?
creshal 10y ago
And yet Windows 7 is supposed to keep getting security updates until 2020. Computer illiterate users are the last group you should upgrade to a new system in an automated manner, because they are the most helpless if drivers/applications break from it.
- snuxoll 10y ago
  This is why the Windows 10 installer does a compatibility check before performing the upgrade. My friend was trying to upgrade to Windows 10 last week but it kept denying him saying his "display is not compatible". I logged into his machine and saw he had an old GoToMyPC monitor driver installed that was causing him grief, uninstalled it and away the upgrade went. It's not perfect by any means, and "compatibility" checks often never will be, but I think it does a good enough job to prevent breaking a working system that isn't ready for the upgrade yet.
  - Decade 10y ago
    I installed Windows 10, and then discovered that the third-party driver that I needed for work was not compatible. Namely, the Roland REAC Driver. That driver acts as a network protocol that you attach to a particular network adapter, so when I upgraded, the adapter showed up as having no protocols. Totally Roland’s fault, waiting until the final release of Windows 10 before even starting to work on upgrading their drivers, but Microsoft also gets some blame for thinking that only Microsoft network protocols matter. The rollback worked, so no lasting harm that I’ve noticed, yet.
    - slantedview 10y ago
      > I installed Windows 10, and then discovered that the third-party driver that I needed for work was not compatible Similar. I KNOW that my wifi adapter's driver is not compatible with Windows 10. So were I to upgrade, I'd have no Wifi until I buy a new adapter, which I don't want to do for that machine. So the constant harassment to upgrade is frustrating.
  - turnip1979 10y ago
rocky1138 10y ago
It's a "Good Thing" when it's done using open source software, not necessarily when it's done by a closed-source company with different priorities than your own.
untog 10y ago
It would be better if Microsoft hadn't stripped features out of 10 in order to ship it. For example, I use Windows Media Center in Windows 8. If I upgrade to Windows 10 it'll disappear and suddenly I won't be able to watch TV any more.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  CABLECard is dead and until the FCC gets sabers rattling against the cable conglomerates for cable box reform (again) and (presumably) universal cable apps, it's tough for anyone to support TV on the computer. (Yeah, that leaves broadcast and broadcast is still open, but broadcast alone has never been a priority for Microsoft and there are still vendor/OEM apps that work with broadcast tuners in Windows 10, at least.) The apps that Media Center was split into are getting better in Windows 10 and with the Anniversary Update and the Xbox One in mind are getting better support for running on couch screens again, but TV viewing is something that currently seems like it will take a while to sort out thanks to the cable conglomerate stubbornness and also the Xbox One needing to pivot and meet gaming stubbornness first over the fight to rebuild a modern Media Center (aka "OneGuide" now).
mikeash 10y ago
Apple manages to get rapid uptake of their new OSes without resorting to these shenanigans. But apparently making an OS that people want to upgrade was too difficult for Microsoft.
- Vexs 10y ago
  I mean, not too much changes with apple upgrades. Sure, someone in the know can pick out generations, but I (and most people) sure can't. Win10 is a drastic change.
mraleman 10y ago
I bet the vast majority of the devs complaining in here hate supporting old versions. Or are web devs.
ghurtado 10y ago
>so long as it's free, and it is It's free if you only consider the cost of licensing the software to the end user. It's not free if you consider that there is a value to the user's time spent dealing with the upgrade, dealing with consequences like drivers or programs that no longer work ( and in the case of OP), rolling back to the previous OS. For me, "free" or not, this is the biggest cost: the daunting prospect of investing an unknowable number of hours of my time.
curried_haskell 10y ago
As a web dev I'm definitely in favor of keeping people updated. However, MS should never never never fucking never interrupt somebody to force an upgrade.
- Bjartr 10y ago
  Doesn't that end up with tons of machines fragmented across security patch levels?
Tloewald 10y ago
I'm in favor of automatic updates for users if it's competently executed, explicit, and stoppable. So it's not the principle, it's the execution.
merb 10y ago
> so long as it's free, and it is There is no such thing.
CamperBob2 10y ago
With this attitude, we might as well not even have personal computers. You're calling for the return of the mainframe priesthood, essentially.

SixSigma 10y ago

I wouldn't be upset if Windows 10 hadn't turned into a telemetry botnet for Microsoft. Edit: I see in other posts accusations of paranoia. But how can I not be paranoid when I cannot determine what is being transmitted.

FussyZeus 10y ago
^ This. It's not THAT there is telemetry and "phoning home," it's the fact that Microsoft flat out REFUSES to be up front about what it's sending home, how they're anonymizing it, and why these things can't be 100% disabled. If you say nothing then your users will (and should) assume the worst.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  Where have they refused to be up front about any of this? As far as I'm aware, they have detailed all of those things except how exactly they anonymize the data, which I haven't seen anyone specifically ask them about.
  - FussyZeus 10y ago
    There's no way to turn it off. It says it's turned off, and it's still sending shit to Redmond. That's unacceptable and deceptive. I do not use software that lies to me, period, paragraph.
    - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
      I suggest you check out Spybot Anti-Beacon. It will help you in turning some of those Telemetry services off. https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/
    - 794CD01 10y ago
      You can turn it off via group policy if you have windows enterprise. If you just want to complain that the cheaper version doesn't have the feature you want, and you don't want to pay the higher price for the version that does have it, that's your right, but I don't have much sympathy for that.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        Another sad example of pirates having it better than us legitimate users.
      - FussyZeus 10y ago
        I have to pay to not be spied on? And you think that's acceptable?
        seanp2k2 10y ago
        You have to pay to have the option to not be spied on, because only the version designed to be used for serious business supports disabling the first-party tracking, because business users are important and home users are just another revenue channel. I now have even less moral issue with not paying to use Windows for personal use. Seriously, they should have just made it free for home users regardless of Win7 license state (I've had terrible luck with "upgraded" versions of Windows -- clean installs only for me, and yes I know about the Insider program and the exception to this...I didn't stay up on the news and I missed the "must be installed by" deadline).
        FussyZeus 10y ago
        If it makes you feel better, my mother was on an insider build because we figured she would get Windows either free or at a discount, and she ended up having to buy retail anyway.
  - curt15 10y ago
    Where does Microsoft explain what they are sending to domains like ad.doubleclick.net?
    - 794CD01 10y ago
      Exactly where you would expect to find it: the data use and access section of the technet article on the feature, and in the Windows privacy statement.
GrumpyYoungMan 10y ago
I take it that you don't use a smartphone, either, since you have no way of knowing what is transmitted either, either by the primary OS or the secondary radio OS. http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste... Or macOS (nee OS X), since Apple gathers telemetry as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11907060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11907060 Moreover, security researchers looking to make a name for themselves are crawling all over Windows. If they haven't found anything in the telemetry that makes headlines yet, most likely there's nothing to find. Paranoid or not, telemetry is already everywhere without you knowing what's being sent and it's here to stay. Singling out Windows is ridiculous.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- vetinari 10y ago
  > I take it that you don't use a smartphone, either, since you have no way of knowing what is transmitted either, either by the primary OS or the secondary radio OS. You know, two wrongs do not make one right. > Or macOS (nee OS X), since Apple gathers telemetry as well. In OSX, sending telemetry and crash reports is voluntary. It is being asked in the OOB wizard and is easily available in the Settings application. In consumer SKUs of Windows 10, that's not the case, sending telemetry is mandatory. > Paranoid or not, telemetry is already everywhere without you knowing what's being sent and it's here to stay. Too early to say. It may also break Microsoft's neck. > Singling out Windows is ridiculous. Biggest target. They have a great opportunity to lead by example - in the positive way.
- whyoh 10y ago
  >If they haven't found anything in the telemetry that makes headlines yet, most likely there's nothing to find. There's plenty to be found and Microsoft isn't even hiding it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con... That data, even at the "Basic" level, is enough to be used for 'bad things'. And since it's on someone else's computer you can't know who has access to it, so you can assume the worst. >Singling out Windows is ridiculous. Just Windows 10. Because it's the only mainstream desktop OS with forced telemetry and no opt-out option.

givinguflac 10y ago

Support it if you want, but you seriously think it's OK for the PC to restart in the middle of a call? What if the user is doing something mission critical; it's acceptable to just wait an hour (or more likely several) to get back to work because "MS knows best"?? There is nothing to stop it from just doing it all over again either. I will never use Windows again because of this behavior.

wvenable 10y ago
I just did the Windows 10 upgrade on my laptop and at no point could I start the upgrade without explicitly clicking a button. In addition, the process starts by immediately rebooting (after downloading via Windows update and asking you to start it).
- pdx 10y ago
  That's a really interesting story. Let me tell you another one. Both my wife's and my son's computers updated automatically, with no button presses on their parts, even after them pressing "do not update" on all the nag screens for the past several months.
  - wvenable 10y ago
    You at least have accept the license agreement, which is true of almost every piece of software. I've still got half my machines on Windows 7/8 and I haven't upgraded them yet. On this laptop I actually had it download Windows 10 but I wasn't ready to upgrade so I held it off for another week. I still had to press something to get it to start.
  - intopieces 10y ago
    On the pop-ups that appear on my Windows 7 machine, there is no button they says "Do Not Update"; both buttons (Update now, update later) lead the system to download and install Windows 10. That both of your users report explicitly clicking a button that references update makes me suspicious that they in fact just clicked the wrong button. Sneaky of Microsoft, but I'm having trouble buying these tales of the OS going rogue. I just haven't seen any way for that to happen.

pavel_lishin 10y ago

Those technically illiterate users are going to have trouble with Windows 10. My stepfather is in his 70s, and I had to help him set up the weather app - and it took me about ten minutes how to figure out how to set a default location! 10 is different enough from 7 that they're going to have to learn a lot of new habits - and while that's just the nature of modern life, some people are going to suffer significantly more than others. I believe there must be a better way of getting the less-literate people to consensually upgrade to Windows 10, without forcing it on them.

794CD01 10y ago
I believe there must be a way of allowing people to live forever without growing old or dying. Unfortunately, neither of our beliefs are very helpful since we cannot describe an exact method for achieving our goals.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Sure, but you can easily user-test and iterate changes to software without killing people or waiting 20 years to see if your changes are beneficial.
PKop 10y ago
Have you tried ChromeOS? My grandfather is in his mid 80's. I've been helping him with his computer(s) for years. In the last year, I switched him over to a Chromebook, after trying and failing to switch him to Windows 10 (wasn't compatible with his old computer)... and since everything he does involves websites and bookmarks anyways. It's the easiest time he's ever had using a computer. No random update notifications, adware popups, anti-virus subscription nags, etc. Nothing but a browser, which he knows how to use. I'd recommend it to anyone considered technically illiterate.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  I haven't, but I probably should. One problem is that they live halfway across the country, so I wouldn't be on hand to help him adjust to the new OS.

Someone1234 10y ago

I'm sympathetic both ways on this one. I think Microsoft went "too far" but I also agree that we don't want another "XP situation" with Windows 7. Effectively having 20%+ of the market on a super old OS holding back the industry and less secure. Microsoft claim they're planning to avoid this in the future by no longer releasing named new OS's, and instead just update Windows 10 for "free" forever. Basically the same as Apple's current model with MacOS. I guess how you fall on this topic is answered by the question: "Do the ends justify the means?"

15charlimit 10y ago
> we don't want another "XP situation" with Windows 7 If Microsoft had really wanted to avoid that, they'd have made Windows 10 actually attractive to the end user and the tech people that would recommend it to the end user. Instead they jammed it chock-full of spyware and malware-tier garbage that nobody wants, and treat the installbase as a testbed for forced updates that could easily (and have) render machines inoperable. Windows 7 will become the next XP, and Microsoft has nobody to blame for it but themselves.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  Oh come on, "spyware" is the same cloud-enabled search stuff that every OS is doing. To me the big problem with Windows 10 is that it's simply very buggy.
- lloeki 10y ago
  > Instead they jammed it chock-full of spyware and malware-tier garbage that nobody wants Can people stop spreading this meme? Worst case, anonymized telemetry is hardly spyware. > Windows 10 actually attractive to the end user It is, regular people around me love it. > and the tech people that would recommend it to the end user. I (and many) do, if only because it is immensely better than sticking to Win7 whose non-extended support ends next year or something. > Microsoft has nobody to blame for it but themselves MS made a couple missteps, but people just love to blow whatever MS does way out of proportion (the same way they do for Apple, only for other points) so instead of having reasonable discourse, all we have is a pile of knee-jerk reactions (not even flamewars!) We get it, MS is bad, Apple is bad, Google is bad bad bad. Oh nasty corps. Probably end user should stick to pen+paper. EDIT: not even a dozen seconds and downvotes are pouring in. Is it still possible to have some reasonable talk instead of yelling at each other?

creshal 10y ago

And yet Windows 7 is supposed to keep getting security updates until 2020. Computer illiterate users are the last group you should upgrade to a new system in an automated manner, because they are the most helpless if drivers/applications break from it.

snuxoll 10y ago
This is why the Windows 10 installer does a compatibility check before performing the upgrade. My friend was trying to upgrade to Windows 10 last week but it kept denying him saying his "display is not compatible". I logged into his machine and saw he had an old GoToMyPC monitor driver installed that was causing him grief, uninstalled it and away the upgrade went. It's not perfect by any means, and "compatibility" checks often never will be, but I think it does a good enough job to prevent breaking a working system that isn't ready for the upgrade yet.
- Decade 10y ago
  I installed Windows 10, and then discovered that the third-party driver that I needed for work was not compatible. Namely, the Roland REAC Driver. That driver acts as a network protocol that you attach to a particular network adapter, so when I upgraded, the adapter showed up as having no protocols. Totally Roland’s fault, waiting until the final release of Windows 10 before even starting to work on upgrading their drivers, but Microsoft also gets some blame for thinking that only Microsoft network protocols matter. The rollback worked, so no lasting harm that I’ve noticed, yet.
  - slantedview 10y ago
    > I installed Windows 10, and then discovered that the third-party driver that I needed for work was not compatible Similar. I KNOW that my wifi adapter's driver is not compatible with Windows 10. So were I to upgrade, I'd have no Wifi until I buy a new adapter, which I don't want to do for that machine. So the constant harassment to upgrade is frustrating.
- turnip1979 10y ago

rocky1138 10y ago

It's a "Good Thing" when it's done using open source software, not necessarily when it's done by a closed-source company with different priorities than your own.

untog 10y ago

It would be better if Microsoft hadn't stripped features out of 10 in order to ship it. For example, I use Windows Media Center in Windows 8. If I upgrade to Windows 10 it'll disappear and suddenly I won't be able to watch TV any more.

WorldMaker 10y ago
CABLECard is dead and until the FCC gets sabers rattling against the cable conglomerates for cable box reform (again) and (presumably) universal cable apps, it's tough for anyone to support TV on the computer. (Yeah, that leaves broadcast and broadcast is still open, but broadcast alone has never been a priority for Microsoft and there are still vendor/OEM apps that work with broadcast tuners in Windows 10, at least.) The apps that Media Center was split into are getting better in Windows 10 and with the Anniversary Update and the Xbox One in mind are getting better support for running on couch screens again, but TV viewing is something that currently seems like it will take a while to sort out thanks to the cable conglomerate stubbornness and also the Xbox One needing to pivot and meet gaming stubbornness first over the fight to rebuild a modern Media Center (aka "OneGuide" now).

mikeash 10y ago

Apple manages to get rapid uptake of their new OSes without resorting to these shenanigans. But apparently making an OS that people want to upgrade was too difficult for Microsoft.

Vexs 10y ago
I mean, not too much changes with apple upgrades. Sure, someone in the know can pick out generations, but I (and most people) sure can't. Win10 is a drastic change.

mraleman 10y ago

I bet the vast majority of the devs complaining in here hate supporting old versions. Or are web devs.

ghurtado 10y ago

>so long as it's free, and it is It's free if you only consider the cost of licensing the software to the end user. It's not free if you consider that there is a value to the user's time spent dealing with the upgrade, dealing with consequences like drivers or programs that no longer work ( and in the case of OP), rolling back to the previous OS. For me, "free" or not, this is the biggest cost: the daunting prospect of investing an unknowable number of hours of my time.

curried_haskell 10y ago

As a web dev I'm definitely in favor of keeping people updated. However, MS should never never never fucking never interrupt somebody to force an upgrade.

Bjartr 10y ago
Doesn't that end up with tons of machines fragmented across security patch levels?

Tloewald 10y ago

I'm in favor of automatic updates for users if it's competently executed, explicit, and stoppable. So it's not the principle, it's the execution.

merb 10y ago

> so long as it's free, and it is There is no such thing.

CamperBob2 10y ago

With this attitude, we might as well not even have personal computers. You're calling for the return of the mainframe priesthood, essentially.