10 ms·

Brexit and the Failure of Western Establishment Institutions

168 points by benaadams 10y ago

mudil 10y ago
“since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.” This elite behavior is rampant on HN. The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist, simple-minded, etc without even thinking. When Obama wins the election, or "progressive" issue is advanced, the intellectual elite labels it as a genuine progress that's good for everyone. When Brexit or Trump happens, that's dumb masses that fail to comprehend the intellectual intricacies, hence that's bad, really bad. Never mind that people have real grievances, that Uber drivers barely make their ends meet, that societies been uprooted. That rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses, etc etc. People have real grievances. We need to listen to them.
- kiba 10y ago
  People have real grievances, but it doesn't mean that they didn't make stupid decisions.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - brandnewlow 10y ago
    One of the points the OP makes is that even if you think someone's decisions are stupid, it doesn't mean they are without legitimate grievance.
- entee 10y ago
  I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses" How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. This vote was for fear of change, insularity, a return to a past that never actually existed. This will likely harm those who voted for the exit the most. That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. Not to mention the very likely contraction of the British economy. Yes, these are "elite" ideas promoted by people who have studied economics and politics for decades, but who else would you rather have us listen to? The problem these institutions have is taking themselves a little too seriously and completely failing to communicate a positive vision for the future. They have also failed to acknowledge and mitigate the downsides of good policies. This is leading to a backlash that will throw the good out with the bad, leaving Europe and especially England and Wales, (doubtful that the UK as constituted survives this) poorer. This is a sad state of affairs.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.
    - noobermin 10y ago
      Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.
- euyyn 10y ago
  When a populist fear-mongering candidate has strong support, it is a failure of decision-making, no matter the side and the policies he pushes.
- FreedomToCreate 10y ago
  From the way I see it, the giant illiterate mass that already exists here is pissed of at the straw man of illiterate immigrants trying to change America into a 3rd world country, and in protest are self destructing on the system. There is a definite issue with income disparity and opportunity, but the way we are going about it is wrong. There are millions of job openings, but they can't be filled because of a skills deficit. Why is there a skills deficit? Because people are not being educated properly. If immigration completely stopped right now, America would still have the same problem. The educated middle class families are not having enough children, leaving a vacuum in the labor force. Combined with the education gap, we have the primer for dissatisfaction with the government. Welfare and medicare is costing the government billions of dollars. Who uses this benefits the most. The baby boomers and the poorly educated who require them to live, and they are the same population most supporting Trump. All of this is just a comical clusterf* and the media perpetuates it so they can make bank.
  - yompers888 10y ago
    If immigration stopped, we'd have quite a different problem, and one that looks like Japan and China and most of Europe: namely, an ageing population with no end in sight. The welfare state problems would be exacerbated.
    - mafribe 10y ago
      Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. If a young population was such a great thing, why are Chad, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Mozambique, South Sudan, Zambiam Malawi, Mali, Uganda, Niger all such basket cases? The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement.
      - madgar 10y ago
        > Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. Older people can be just as selfish as young people. Relevant Brexit quote [0]: > Woman on Radio 4 who voted Leave. "I'm pleased. Don't think it'll effect us cause we're elderly. For the young people I'm not sure." That doesn't sound experienced or wise - actually, if anything it seems recklessly selfish and bordering on intergenerational violence. > The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement. How exactly is that solution "easy" if all those old people vote consistently to keep the retirement age where it is? Older folks are the single most reliable constituency in America on election day. I personally think the story behind all of this is the growing divide between young and old voters. IMO our aging population is indeed more experienced and wiser... when it comes to stacking the deck in their favor and keeping their awful policies from being reversed. Which generation(s) have a problem with LGBT people? Which generation sold $1T in debt to its children and erected unprecedented barriers to discharging that debt? Which generation started the War on Drugs and refuses to admit to its failure, or even really fix the embarrassingly racist details like mandatory minimums? Which generation tells which generation that they can't possibly earn more than $7.25/hour, and which generation pours wealth into elections so they can maintain that status quo? [0] https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392 https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392
- dang 10y ago
  People do have real grievances, but the rants you posted against "Russian prostitutes" and "Polish kielbasa shops in London" were not among them. Those were some of the worst comments we've seen here recently--uncivil, unsubstantive and obviously unwelcome on this site. So it takes some brass, to borrow one elite globalist's colorful phrase, to diss the community ("this elite behavior is rampant on HN") and posture above it. Doing so is nearly always a marker of a bad comment, if not a bad commenter. To the extent that we have threads about Brexit or politics on HN (and we do have some, as the guidelines explicitly allow), people are welcome to argue either side of the issues, and indeed do. What they're not welcome to do is vent, spew, stomp their feet, impute ill motives to others, and all the rest of bad internet manners. They're also not welcome to diss the community whilst participating in it.
  - mudil 10y ago
    Precisely the point of the article: you don't hear us (me). The Polish and Russian comment was to illustrate the immigration situation, not to question the culture or people. I am from Ukraine, and have no problems with Russians or Polish, really, they are my people. Automatically, in accordance with prevailing political correctness, I am labeled racist, xenophobe, etc. It might be OK for Istanbul to have a mix of Polish transients and Russian prostitutes and Muslims etc etc, since it is on the crossroads of East and West, but for London to look like Damascus is not such a great idea, in my opinion. Again, just my opinion that has nothing to do with racism or intolerance. As a matter of fact, I shiver when I think how Europe can go fascist and turn these poor immigrants into corpses.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de&CMP=share_btn_tw#block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... > Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire. > Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge. > The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. > Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later. > Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident. > He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”
  - yompers888 10y ago
    >> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist >We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. >http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.... Fallacy of composition: incidences of hate crime offer no insight into parent's comments. Having said that, parent's comment also offers no insight into what parent does say about Brexit.
orev 10y ago
The main failure is of established intellectual organizations that have been unable to stop the erosion of their provably correct positions by those who want to undermine them for their own personal gain. It doesn't prove those institutions are wrong, just that all those things people that were so crazy that no one would take them seriously actually were taken seriously but a certain group of people. This didn't happen overnight -- it's been a concerted effort by certain interests for a long time.
- rayiner 10y ago
  I'm sorry, I missed the paper that proved that globalization and dilution of voting power were the "correct positions."
- mc32 10y ago
  One unrecognized issue by most of the west but recognized in places like Russia, Japan, SKorea, China, is while they may promote equality and universal values, they are careful not to subvert their own people. That is the gain for others is not at the expense of their working class. They typically extoll thru working class --even if sometimes, they betray them. But at least they make an effort rather than vilify and denigrate them as illiterate, lumpen masses of bigoted people who deserve being swept aside by a tide of workers willing to undercut them because however underpaid the newcomers are, they are much better off than remaining back home.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >One unrecognized issue by most of the west but recognized in places like Russia, Japan, SKorea, China, is while they may promote equality and universal values, they are careful not to subvert their own people. Then how come Russia and China keep their working classes poor, Japan and South Korea rabidly overwork people, and Japan has allowed three Lost Decades?
    - mc32 10y ago
      Among other reasons, from my experience, they are homogenous enough that failures are attributed to character, rather than someone else taking something from them. If I were to give a homeless person money in Asia, many people would frown at it because they ask, why do you support a good for nothing, they don't deserve it, they are able bodied, they can get a job, if they were so inclined. That's the attitude I've come across.
vegabook 10y ago
> "The solution is not to subserviently cling to corrupt elite institutions out of fear of the alternatives. It is, instead, to help bury those institutions..." Starting with the deeply corrupt policy of quantitative easing and zero interest rates, which seek to protect incumbent and bankrupt financial institutions by increasing the value of assets already in the hands of the elites, and devaluing liabilities, amongst which, wages.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  I don't think that's intentional. CSPAN had the Yellen congressional grilling on this week; at least nobody was able to formulate this question in a way to make me suspect it's anything but a side effect. Poor comfort, but it's something. Certain classes of assets are under fairly severe devaluation. When the winners are companies like Apple - which is a company with a pretty anti-elitist, popular product - this also presents headwinds to this sort of theory. IMO, I rather like Steve Randy Waldman's essay "Depression Is a Choice".
  - vegabook 10y ago
    Today's Fed, led by Yellen, has become a technocratic institution blinkered by "data", unable to rise above its econometric myopia to see what really is happening in the society which it serves. It has essentially been subjugated to the same economic doctrines and dogmas which serve the elites so well, and which are rolled out every time a brexit or a trump rears its head: "careful, this is bad for The Economy" (read: this is bad for the elites). Say what you like about Greenspan, but at least he had a self-determined intellect and swagger, which he used without needing to justify himself constantly with a spreadsheet's output (even if he used said swagger to serve his own class of capitalists). So I don't blame Yellen. She genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by the rules of the game she has been carefully selected to be unquestioning in.
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      As someone with Monetarist leanings ( which arguably makes me more "data driven" than the other branches, ironically ), I relate all this back to the Bank of England, that solemn engine of colonial oppression, being used as the template for all banking. The Fed balance sheet is being used as a prop in an economic horror movie. It is indeed econometric myopia. We set 2% inflation targets and then fail to meet them. But production is inherently extrinsic to central banks. With a populace that thinks more and more like retired people, it's harder to get the fire lit.
mudil 10y ago
Consider this. I am a physician, a Harvard trained cardiac anesthesiologist. I was born in Soviet Union, and I traveled all over the world. I consider myself to be well read and fairly well educated. And yet when I air my conservative views they are labeled dumb and not intelligent. How's that possible? In terms of grievances, they extend beyond white rednecks. (BTW, I read somewhere that the talented white redneck kids have the highest level of discrimination against them when applying into elite schools.) Consider African Americans: 73% of kids born to single mothers and huge level of incarceration. How is it not a failure of political science and Democrats that represent African Americans on all levels of government?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- noobermin 10y ago
  >How is it not a failure of political science and Democrats that represent African Americans on all levels of government? It could be a systemic racist system that marginalizes them even in the post-civil rights era--the sort of thing that Black Lives Matter and the NAACP propose. I'm not sure what "political science" or "Democrats" have to do with that other than tangentially.
- Retric 10y ago
  One possibility is the ideas are dumb. It's easy to live in an ecco chamber and not notice. Or possibly your not clearly expressing the ideas. The people you are talking to could also be misinformed.
- tremon 10y ago
  How's that possible? Neither your education nor your literacy level lends innate substance to your views. Maybe your are over-relying on your credentials and completely missing the real issues of your audience?
- RobertoG 10y ago
  Dumb views are dumb views, never mind the precedence. The idea that African Americans statistics have nothing to do with African Americans personal and collective history and it's just 'the way they are' (and, basically, that it's what you are implying) it's pretty dumb in my book. The same apply to 'rednecks' by the way.
pasbesoin 10y ago
I agree. Many "average persons" are damned tired of watching their own welfare and their communities become ever more hollowed out. The spectre of global welfare is akin to a chimera, when your own circumstances and productive years are being wiped out. And no, not everyone has the resources and flexibility to "just move". People will divide back up into smaller, more cohesive communities, if that's what it takes to protect their own, immediate interests. If you don't like this, then stop discounting the notion of "winners" and "losers" and put some effort into spreading those winnings. Or, buy more guns and, now, robots. Including robots to shoot the guns at the "less equal".
abainbridge 10y ago
"In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them" Not in any rational sense. They voted for the even more elite: an ex-stockbroker (Farage) and an old Etonian (Johnson). If anything I'd say the leave camp is entirely composed of the elite who want to take even more away from the working class. They didn't like being told what to do by the EU because they didn't like its left-of-centre policies.
- mc32 10y ago
  This kind of interpretation is the one which leads to these kinds of results. It's not Boris nor Farage. It was the system they voted against.
  - tremon 10y ago
    And Johnson and Farage are amongst those who could possibly gain the most from this result. So how is it not in the interest of the elite to reinforce this distrust? I'd say that kind of interpretation is valid to explore.
    - maratd 10y ago
      You can explore it as much as you want. There will always be those who are well-to-do found in every cause. They voted for self-governance and sovereignty. Many had their own reasons and desires for that sovereignty, but that's what they voted for. Why should any people have a desire to be a part of a political organization over which they have zero control, but must pay taxes to? That is antithetical to democracy and good governance.
      - tremon 10y ago
        Why should any people have a desire to be a part of a political organization over which they have zero control, but must pay taxes to? For one, because the political organization benefits them? Control is not the only desirable property of an organization. Furthermore, the UK did not have zero control over the EU. It had one commissioner (the same amount as any other member state), and 10% of the seats in parliament (second only in representation to Germany) -- So your question misrepresents the situation. If you do not like to be called out for that strawman argument, please inform yourself or be more articulate next time. Ironically, the situation "zero control, with tax obligations" (i.e. the Norway solution) is now the most likely option for the UK.
akamaka 10y ago
I don't buy this argument. The author is trying to fit the Brexit vote into his broader thesis about economic inequality, but it doesn't quite fit the facts. Does the author really consider the heavily pro-EU residents of Liverpool, Glasgow, or Northern Ireland to be establishment elites?
- noobermin 10y ago
  I think the relation seems plausible on the surface because the same groups that were pro-brexit were the ones who are pro-trump, the /pol/-lurking, redpill types for example. I'm not sure it fits into inequality too, but Brexit has a similar mantra of "taking back the country" from a larger authority and had populist elements. In that sense, I do agree it is a reaction to the "elites" in some people's minds.
- return0 10y ago
  I think we should be talking about inequality of opportunity rather than inequality of wealth. Someone seems to have kicked the social ladder above the middle class.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    We forking off onto a tangent, but one would say in the current system, wealth buys opportunity, so they are the same. Indeed, if opportunity were near equal for all, then many fewer would be complaining.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    So why were young people overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU?
    - return0 10y ago
      Hey i m no expert. I would wager the young are more informed and they know that the EU is the least of their problems (In fact, less than a problem). Or their young age allowed them to feel less desperate about their prospects.
protomyth 10y ago
I often point to the 1998 Minnesota gubernatorial election[1] as an example. Polling was awful (Ventura was given no chance). Reporters were jokingly dismissive, and the comments coming out of the University of MN were downright shameful. Election night was a "big surprise". I get the feeling the US is going through that scenario writ larger. I get the feeling (I'm not from UK) that Brexit was similar. The BBC seemed like it picked a winner, and the US media does the same while dismissing all others. If I remember right the last UK election was pretty surprising to the BBC and its pollsters. In the US, the average person has grievances, is made fun of constantly on TV, and watches as people argue solutions that don't seem to have anything to do with the problem but sure fit their "let no crisis go to waste" mentality. Religious people are always portrayed as secretly corrupt or idiots[2]. Your jobs can get shipped off, replaced by someone on a visa, or a robot will do them. Celebrities are constantly shown knowing more about your job than you and calling you stupid or a villain. It seems chalk on a sidewalk with a candidates name is a national trauma? Never mind the number of government agencies that can just take your stuff without any recourse on your part. and people wonder why the old Top Gear was so popular I fear its going to get to the point that we really have no common ground left. I hope pasbesoin[3] isn't right, but I've lost a lot of hope. 1) and no, I dislike the winner intensely - suing a widow is a no go 2) MASH, Babylon 5, and The West Wing for the exception. At least The West Wing had the decency to portray Republicans as sometimes heroes. 3) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977593
- arcanus 10y ago
  > made fun of constantly on TV This. I've heard far too many charges of racism and xenophobia, as if many legitimately believe 52% of England are racists. Heaven forbid an electorate that has not been a beneficiary of globalism vote against the staus quo!
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    In the British Social Attitudes Survey, 30% of the population said that they have "some level of racial prejudice". Given the stigma of those beliefs, I expect the real number could be significantly higher. Attributing Brexit solely to racism and xenophobia is clearly unreasonable, but it is equally unreasonable to dismiss it entirely as a factor. There are some striking demographic correlations between Leave voters and people who admitted to being racially prejudiced. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/27/-sp-racism-on-rise-in-britain https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/27/-sp-racism-o...
rayiner 10y ago
The point about the Iraq war is a good one, and highlights one of the biggest blind spots of the western media. Take, for example, the U.S. media's handling of Trump's opposition to the Iraq war. It has been bizarre. They've turned it into a debate about whether he was sufficiently publicly opposed to it before it happened, and whether he said that Bush lied to get us into the war, or whether he merely said it was the biggest mistake any President has ever made. The whole time ignoring its own consistent and vociferous support of the single most disastrous undertaking in U.S. and U.K. history.
- remarkEon 10y ago
  An astute observation. Additionally, consider how Cruz and Rubio pretended to have some meaningful difference in their stance on the gang of eight immigration reform bill. There was no real substantive debate about immigration in general - the focus was on drawing a contrast for voters.
deagle50 10y ago
The downside of indirect democracy coupled with corporate meritocracy is that the strongest players rise quickly and then rig the game to enshrine their elite position. This is what happened shortly after WW2 and we've been pawns in their experiments since.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
They voted for more globalism, they just haven't realised this yet. Because they're stupid. And racist.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  You either are wrong or have to work on when and how to apply your sarcasm.
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't make a divisive thread still worse by posting empty name-calling. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977750 and marked it off-topic.
Futurebot 10y ago
This is probably the best thing Greenwald has ever written. Everyone in (or interested in) media, politics, government, academia, etc. should read it carefully and with a wide open mind. Grappling with this piece, its linked pieces, and Twilight of the Elites should be something that is now done in earnest; this is a chance for elites in other troubled western countries to work on getting ahead of the problem, as they failed to do previously, before it really gets out of hand. The status quo is a failure, and continued denial will only lead us down an ever-darker road. We need a new way.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- _yosefk 10y ago
  Except few Leave voters would agree with his explanations of their vote or want him as their representative, I'd guess. So him talking about failure to listen is a bit funny.
  - Futurebot 10y ago
    Sure, that's probably true. They don't need to listen to him, though; elites do. Then elites, through various mechanisms, need to a) communicate effectively to do those who are now disaffected and more importantly b) create conditions where bigotry (and other forms of exclusion) do not overtake good sense because of economic pressures / scarcity / perceived scarcity. It certainly won't be overnight, but the sooner they start, the sooner we can start fixing things.
    - _yosefk 10y ago
      What if you and TFA are both wrong in that the opposite of bigotry and exclusion is completely open borders and that the latter is desirable? What if control over immigration policy is a legitimate thing to seek regardless of "perceived scarcity"? Or what if it's not legitimate but that's what the public genuinely wants? What if (much of) the root cause is in many other issues with European integration that many Europeans don't like even though you and TFA think integration is the cat's whiskers?
Sketch22 10y ago
I call BS on your 'justification'. It is defacto use of Godwin's Law. There were people who voted for Mayor Khan because he was muslim. So everyone who voted for Sadiq supports ISIS. There were people who voted for President Obama because he is black. So everyone who voted for Obama is a racist. There are people who openly state that they will vote for Hillary because she is a woman. So everyone who votes for (dry heave) Hillary is a sexist. That is your reasoning. I bet Hitler liked spaghetti, too...
- htns 10y ago
  There were also people who voted for Hitler because they were racist. But maybe there were voters who did not really hate the jews. Perhaps they only wanted to seize their property. It's important to make the distinction.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  WTF? I specifically did not say "everyone" anywhere. "It was a factor for some portion". And yes, some people voted for Obama specifically because of his race (and some voted against him because of his race). Others had other reasons for voting; same with Brexit voters.
- dang 10y ago
  That's a serious distortion of what mgkimsal said. (And isn't "defacto use of Godwin's Law" a contradiction in terms?) A little less "I call BS" and a little more Principle of Charity, please, if you want to keep commenting here. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977900 and marked it off-topic.
cygx 10y ago
I suspect it's more about public perception than hard facts: There's a huge difference in opinion about the EU in its member states, even those in ostensibly similar economic circumstances. Take some of its smaller members with a similar GDP per capita (entries 37-42 of [1]), and compare their agreement with the statement (OUR COUNTRY) could better face the future outside the EU according to Special Eurobarometer 415 from 2014 [2][3]: Agree Disagree Czech Republic 42% 49% Slovenia 42% 48% Slovakia 28% 64% Estonia 21% 74% Lithuania 22% 71% Portugal 37% 52% The Eurobarometer poll had the UK at 47% agree / 41% disagree, so one could have predicted a result of 53% in favour of leaving the EU, which is not far off and likely influenced by common anti-EU rhetoric among British media and politicians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... [2] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_415_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_415_en.p... [3] http://i.imgur.com/2kNwdtf.png http://i.imgur.com/2kNwdtf.png
mwfunk 10y ago
This article made lots of great points, but I fundamentally disagree with bucketing everyone into "elites" (whatever that means) and "everyone else". Every leader (within the media, a government, a political party, etc.) is an elite by the definitions used here. Trump is an elite. The politicians behind Leave are elites. They may be trying to displace other elites with different views, but that doesn't mean they themselves aren't elites. They're just really good at convincing people that they are disenfranchised.
- optimusclimb 10y ago
  I'm with you on the elites bit. It strikes me as the kind of ambiguous blanket term that will leave some student 20-40 years from now reading a primary source from this time period scratching their head, trying to understand exactly who the elites the author mentioned so many times were.
api 10y ago
I've been thinking things like this for years, especially about a "general loss of confidence." For me the two most confidence-destroying events of the past two decades were Iraq and the 2008 financial bailouts/crisis (and the housing bubble that caused it and is still delivering pain). Both of these occurred under the Bush Jr. administration or very shortly after it. For years I've seen Bush Jr. as the worst president of the past 100 years -- far worse than Nixon and Johnson -- and now I'm seeing quite a bit of real world confirmation of this. On the other hand I'm not a huge Obama fan either. He ran as a "change" candidate, but seems to have more or less stayed the course. That's been disastrous.
davidf18 10y ago
A very lengthy article. Still, he is correct about the Republican, Democratic, and British political elites ignoring the working class. The Republican Elite complain about Trump, yet, they offered nobody, nobody at all that addressed the concerns of the working class. Charles Murray (The Bell Curve) has spoken about this a similar manner. Here is an interesting article from The Guardian about Trump that is consistent with the OP article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald...
UK-AL 10y ago
If brexit was a vote anti-globalism and being nationalist, then the voters are in for a big surprise. Vote leave have been explicit in about being globalist.
arca_vorago 10y ago
When the international bankers couldn't pass the Aldrich bill, they renamed it the federal reserve bill, started a public campaign about how "bad for the banks" the bill would be, while secretly funding economics professors across the country. The people, thinking anything bad for the bank was good for the people, campaigned for the federal reserve bill, and it was passed by only a few people after much of the house/senate had gone home for the holidays. I highly suspect a similar style of propaganda going on with the brexit, up to and including voting fraud. I think the electronic voting systems are highly likely to be manipulable.
- benaadams 10y ago
  We have no electronic voting; all hand counted paper in public
  - arca_vorago 10y ago
    I just happened to read that this morning, so it looks like I was wrong about that. Thanks for the correction!
la6470 10y ago
As long as globalization was working in favor of the western population it was perfectly fine, now suddenly when you guys find that the Chinese and Indians are as good as you the white westerners you are suddenly insecure and globalization is bad. Where were your morality when globalization killed hundreds and thousands of traditional industries in the emerging markets, when it destroyed the cultural fabric ruthlessly of these countries and the forces of globalization was unleashed like a storm on those countries?

168 points by benaadams 10y ago

mudil 10y ago

“since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.” This elite behavior is rampant on HN. The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist, simple-minded, etc without even thinking. When Obama wins the election, or "progressive" issue is advanced, the intellectual elite labels it as a genuine progress that's good for everyone. When Brexit or Trump happens, that's dumb masses that fail to comprehend the intellectual intricacies, hence that's bad, really bad. Never mind that people have real grievances, that Uber drivers barely make their ends meet, that societies been uprooted. That rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses, etc etc. People have real grievances. We need to listen to them.

kiba 10y ago
People have real grievances, but it doesn't mean that they didn't make stupid decisions.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- brandnewlow 10y ago
  One of the points the OP makes is that even if you think someone's decisions are stupid, it doesn't mean they are without legitimate grievance.
entee 10y ago
I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses" How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. This vote was for fear of change, insularity, a return to a past that never actually existed. This will likely harm those who voted for the exit the most. That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. Not to mention the very likely contraction of the British economy. Yes, these are "elite" ideas promoted by people who have studied economics and politics for decades, but who else would you rather have us listen to? The problem these institutions have is taking themselves a little too seriously and completely failing to communicate a positive vision for the future. They have also failed to acknowledge and mitigate the downsides of good policies. This is leading to a backlash that will throw the good out with the bad, leaving Europe and especially England and Wales, (doubtful that the UK as constituted survives this) poorer. This is a sad state of affairs.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.
euyyn 10y ago
When a populist fear-mongering candidate has strong support, it is a failure of decision-making, no matter the side and the policies he pushes.
FreedomToCreate 10y ago
From the way I see it, the giant illiterate mass that already exists here is pissed of at the straw man of illiterate immigrants trying to change America into a 3rd world country, and in protest are self destructing on the system. There is a definite issue with income disparity and opportunity, but the way we are going about it is wrong. There are millions of job openings, but they can't be filled because of a skills deficit. Why is there a skills deficit? Because people are not being educated properly. If immigration completely stopped right now, America would still have the same problem. The educated middle class families are not having enough children, leaving a vacuum in the labor force. Combined with the education gap, we have the primer for dissatisfaction with the government. Welfare and medicare is costing the government billions of dollars. Who uses this benefits the most. The baby boomers and the poorly educated who require them to live, and they are the same population most supporting Trump. All of this is just a comical clusterf* and the media perpetuates it so they can make bank.
- yompers888 10y ago
  If immigration stopped, we'd have quite a different problem, and one that looks like Japan and China and most of Europe: namely, an ageing population with no end in sight. The welfare state problems would be exacerbated.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. If a young population was such a great thing, why are Chad, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Mozambique, South Sudan, Zambiam Malawi, Mali, Uganda, Niger all such basket cases? The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement.
    - madgar 10y ago
      > Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. Older people can be just as selfish as young people. Relevant Brexit quote [0]: > Woman on Radio 4 who voted Leave. "I'm pleased. Don't think it'll effect us cause we're elderly. For the young people I'm not sure." That doesn't sound experienced or wise - actually, if anything it seems recklessly selfish and bordering on intergenerational violence. > The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement. How exactly is that solution "easy" if all those old people vote consistently to keep the retirement age where it is? Older folks are the single most reliable constituency in America on election day. I personally think the story behind all of this is the growing divide between young and old voters. IMO our aging population is indeed more experienced and wiser... when it comes to stacking the deck in their favor and keeping their awful policies from being reversed. Which generation(s) have a problem with LGBT people? Which generation sold $1T in debt to its children and erected unprecedented barriers to discharging that debt? Which generation started the War on Drugs and refuses to admit to its failure, or even really fix the embarrassingly racist details like mandatory minimums? Which generation tells which generation that they can't possibly earn more than $7.25/hour, and which generation pours wealth into elections so they can maintain that status quo? [0] https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392 https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392
dang 10y ago
People do have real grievances, but the rants you posted against "Russian prostitutes" and "Polish kielbasa shops in London" were not among them. Those were some of the worst comments we've seen here recently--uncivil, unsubstantive and obviously unwelcome on this site. So it takes some brass, to borrow one elite globalist's colorful phrase, to diss the community ("this elite behavior is rampant on HN") and posture above it. Doing so is nearly always a marker of a bad comment, if not a bad commenter. To the extent that we have threads about Brexit or politics on HN (and we do have some, as the guidelines explicitly allow), people are welcome to argue either side of the issues, and indeed do. What they're not welcome to do is vent, spew, stomp their feet, impute ill motives to others, and all the rest of bad internet manners. They're also not welcome to diss the community whilst participating in it.
- mudil 10y ago
  Precisely the point of the article: you don't hear us (me). The Polish and Russian comment was to illustrate the immigration situation, not to question the culture or people. I am from Ukraine, and have no problems with Russians or Polish, really, they are my people. Automatically, in accordance with prevailing political correctness, I am labeled racist, xenophobe, etc. It might be OK for Istanbul to have a mix of Polish transients and Russian prostitutes and Muslims etc etc, since it is on the crossroads of East and West, but for London to look like Damascus is not such a great idea, in my opinion. Again, just my opinion that has nothing to do with racism or intolerance. As a matter of fact, I shiver when I think how Europe can go fascist and turn these poor immigrants into corpses.
DanBC 10y ago
> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de&CMP=share_btn_tw#block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... > Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire. > Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge. > The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. > Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later. > Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident. > He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”
- yompers888 10y ago
  >> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist >We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. >http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.... Fallacy of composition: incidences of hate crime offer no insight into parent's comments. Having said that, parent's comment also offers no insight into what parent does say about Brexit.

orev 10y ago

The main failure is of established intellectual organizations that have been unable to stop the erosion of their provably correct positions by those who want to undermine them for their own personal gain. It doesn't prove those institutions are wrong, just that all those things people that were so crazy that no one would take them seriously actually were taken seriously but a certain group of people. This didn't happen overnight -- it's been a concerted effort by certain interests for a long time.

rayiner 10y ago
I'm sorry, I missed the paper that proved that globalization and dilution of voting power were the "correct positions."
mc32 10y ago
One unrecognized issue by most of the west but recognized in places like Russia, Japan, SKorea, China, is while they may promote equality and universal values, they are careful not to subvert their own people. That is the gain for others is not at the expense of their working class. They typically extoll thru working class --even if sometimes, they betray them. But at least they make an effort rather than vilify and denigrate them as illiterate, lumpen masses of bigoted people who deserve being swept aside by a tide of workers willing to undercut them because however underpaid the newcomers are, they are much better off than remaining back home.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >One unrecognized issue by most of the west but recognized in places like Russia, Japan, SKorea, China, is while they may promote equality and universal values, they are careful not to subvert their own people. Then how come Russia and China keep their working classes poor, Japan and South Korea rabidly overwork people, and Japan has allowed three Lost Decades?
  - mc32 10y ago
    Among other reasons, from my experience, they are homogenous enough that failures are attributed to character, rather than someone else taking something from them. If I were to give a homeless person money in Asia, many people would frown at it because they ask, why do you support a good for nothing, they don't deserve it, they are able bodied, they can get a job, if they were so inclined. That's the attitude I've come across.

vegabook 10y ago

> "The solution is not to subserviently cling to corrupt elite institutions out of fear of the alternatives. It is, instead, to help bury those institutions..." Starting with the deeply corrupt policy of quantitative easing and zero interest rates, which seek to protect incumbent and bankrupt financial institutions by increasing the value of assets already in the hands of the elites, and devaluing liabilities, amongst which, wages.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
I don't think that's intentional. CSPAN had the Yellen congressional grilling on this week; at least nobody was able to formulate this question in a way to make me suspect it's anything but a side effect. Poor comfort, but it's something. Certain classes of assets are under fairly severe devaluation. When the winners are companies like Apple - which is a company with a pretty anti-elitist, popular product - this also presents headwinds to this sort of theory. IMO, I rather like Steve Randy Waldman's essay "Depression Is a Choice".
- vegabook 10y ago
  Today's Fed, led by Yellen, has become a technocratic institution blinkered by "data", unable to rise above its econometric myopia to see what really is happening in the society which it serves. It has essentially been subjugated to the same economic doctrines and dogmas which serve the elites so well, and which are rolled out every time a brexit or a trump rears its head: "careful, this is bad for The Economy" (read: this is bad for the elites). Say what you like about Greenspan, but at least he had a self-determined intellect and swagger, which he used without needing to justify himself constantly with a spreadsheet's output (even if he used said swagger to serve his own class of capitalists). So I don't blame Yellen. She genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by the rules of the game she has been carefully selected to be unquestioning in.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    As someone with Monetarist leanings ( which arguably makes me more "data driven" than the other branches, ironically ), I relate all this back to the Bank of England, that solemn engine of colonial oppression, being used as the template for all banking. The Fed balance sheet is being used as a prop in an economic horror movie. It is indeed econometric myopia. We set 2% inflation targets and then fail to meet them. But production is inherently extrinsic to central banks. With a populace that thinks more and more like retired people, it's harder to get the fire lit.

mudil 10y ago

Consider this. I am a physician, a Harvard trained cardiac anesthesiologist. I was born in Soviet Union, and I traveled all over the world. I consider myself to be well read and fairly well educated. And yet when I air my conservative views they are labeled dumb and not intelligent. How's that possible? In terms of grievances, they extend beyond white rednecks. (BTW, I read somewhere that the talented white redneck kids have the highest level of discrimination against them when applying into elite schools.) Consider African Americans: 73% of kids born to single mothers and huge level of incarceration. How is it not a failure of political science and Democrats that represent African Americans on all levels of government?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
noobermin 10y ago
>How is it not a failure of political science and Democrats that represent African Americans on all levels of government? It could be a systemic racist system that marginalizes them even in the post-civil rights era--the sort of thing that Black Lives Matter and the NAACP propose. I'm not sure what "political science" or "Democrats" have to do with that other than tangentially.
Retric 10y ago
One possibility is the ideas are dumb. It's easy to live in an ecco chamber and not notice. Or possibly your not clearly expressing the ideas. The people you are talking to could also be misinformed.
tremon 10y ago
How's that possible? Neither your education nor your literacy level lends innate substance to your views. Maybe your are over-relying on your credentials and completely missing the real issues of your audience?
RobertoG 10y ago
Dumb views are dumb views, never mind the precedence. The idea that African Americans statistics have nothing to do with African Americans personal and collective history and it's just 'the way they are' (and, basically, that it's what you are implying) it's pretty dumb in my book. The same apply to 'rednecks' by the way.

pasbesoin 10y ago

I agree. Many "average persons" are damned tired of watching their own welfare and their communities become ever more hollowed out. The spectre of global welfare is akin to a chimera, when your own circumstances and productive years are being wiped out. And no, not everyone has the resources and flexibility to "just move". People will divide back up into smaller, more cohesive communities, if that's what it takes to protect their own, immediate interests. If you don't like this, then stop discounting the notion of "winners" and "losers" and put some effort into spreading those winnings. Or, buy more guns and, now, robots. Including robots to shoot the guns at the "less equal".

abainbridge 10y ago

"In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them" Not in any rational sense. They voted for the even more elite: an ex-stockbroker (Farage) and an old Etonian (Johnson). If anything I'd say the leave camp is entirely composed of the elite who want to take even more away from the working class. They didn't like being told what to do by the EU because they didn't like its left-of-centre policies.

mc32 10y ago
This kind of interpretation is the one which leads to these kinds of results. It's not Boris nor Farage. It was the system they voted against.
- tremon 10y ago
  And Johnson and Farage are amongst those who could possibly gain the most from this result. So how is it not in the interest of the elite to reinforce this distrust? I'd say that kind of interpretation is valid to explore.
  - maratd 10y ago
    You can explore it as much as you want. There will always be those who are well-to-do found in every cause. They voted for self-governance and sovereignty. Many had their own reasons and desires for that sovereignty, but that's what they voted for. Why should any people have a desire to be a part of a political organization over which they have zero control, but must pay taxes to? That is antithetical to democracy and good governance.
    - tremon 10y ago
      Why should any people have a desire to be a part of a political organization over which they have zero control, but must pay taxes to? For one, because the political organization benefits them? Control is not the only desirable property of an organization. Furthermore, the UK did not have zero control over the EU. It had one commissioner (the same amount as any other member state), and 10% of the seats in parliament (second only in representation to Germany) -- So your question misrepresents the situation. If you do not like to be called out for that strawman argument, please inform yourself or be more articulate next time. Ironically, the situation "zero control, with tax obligations" (i.e. the Norway solution) is now the most likely option for the UK.

akamaka 10y ago

I don't buy this argument. The author is trying to fit the Brexit vote into his broader thesis about economic inequality, but it doesn't quite fit the facts. Does the author really consider the heavily pro-EU residents of Liverpool, Glasgow, or Northern Ireland to be establishment elites?

noobermin 10y ago
I think the relation seems plausible on the surface because the same groups that were pro-brexit were the ones who are pro-trump, the /pol/-lurking, redpill types for example. I'm not sure it fits into inequality too, but Brexit has a similar mantra of "taking back the country" from a larger authority and had populist elements. In that sense, I do agree it is a reaction to the "elites" in some people's minds.
return0 10y ago
I think we should be talking about inequality of opportunity rather than inequality of wealth. Someone seems to have kicked the social ladder above the middle class.
- noobermin 10y ago
  We forking off onto a tangent, but one would say in the current system, wealth buys opportunity, so they are the same. Indeed, if opportunity were near equal for all, then many fewer would be complaining.
- arethuza 10y ago
  So why were young people overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU?
  - return0 10y ago
    Hey i m no expert. I would wager the young are more informed and they know that the EU is the least of their problems (In fact, less than a problem). Or their young age allowed them to feel less desperate about their prospects.

protomyth 10y ago

I often point to the 1998 Minnesota gubernatorial election[1] as an example. Polling was awful (Ventura was given no chance). Reporters were jokingly dismissive, and the comments coming out of the University of MN were downright shameful. Election night was a "big surprise". I get the feeling the US is going through that scenario writ larger. I get the feeling (I'm not from UK) that Brexit was similar. The BBC seemed like it picked a winner, and the US media does the same while dismissing all others. If I remember right the last UK election was pretty surprising to the BBC and its pollsters. In the US, the average person has grievances, is made fun of constantly on TV, and watches as people argue solutions that don't seem to have anything to do with the problem but sure fit their "let no crisis go to waste" mentality. Religious people are always portrayed as secretly corrupt or idiots[2]. Your jobs can get shipped off, replaced by someone on a visa, or a robot will do them. Celebrities are constantly shown knowing more about your job than you and calling you stupid or a villain. It seems chalk on a sidewalk with a candidates name is a national trauma? Never mind the number of government agencies that can just take your stuff without any recourse on your part. and people wonder why the old Top Gear was so popular I fear its going to get to the point that we really have no common ground left. I hope pasbesoin[3] isn't right, but I've lost a lot of hope. 1) and no, I dislike the winner intensely - suing a widow is a no go 2) MASH, Babylon 5, and The West Wing for the exception. At least The West Wing had the decency to portray Republicans as sometimes heroes. 3) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977593

arcanus 10y ago
> made fun of constantly on TV This. I've heard far too many charges of racism and xenophobia, as if many legitimately believe 52% of England are racists. Heaven forbid an electorate that has not been a beneficiary of globalism vote against the staus quo!
- jdietrich 10y ago
  In the British Social Attitudes Survey, 30% of the population said that they have "some level of racial prejudice". Given the stigma of those beliefs, I expect the real number could be significantly higher. Attributing Brexit solely to racism and xenophobia is clearly unreasonable, but it is equally unreasonable to dismiss it entirely as a factor. There are some striking demographic correlations between Leave voters and people who admitted to being racially prejudiced. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/27/-sp-racism-on-rise-in-britain https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/27/-sp-racism-o...

rayiner 10y ago

The point about the Iraq war is a good one, and highlights one of the biggest blind spots of the western media. Take, for example, the U.S. media's handling of Trump's opposition to the Iraq war. It has been bizarre. They've turned it into a debate about whether he was sufficiently publicly opposed to it before it happened, and whether he said that Bush lied to get us into the war, or whether he merely said it was the biggest mistake any President has ever made. The whole time ignoring its own consistent and vociferous support of the single most disastrous undertaking in U.S. and U.K. history.

remarkEon 10y ago
An astute observation. Additionally, consider how Cruz and Rubio pretended to have some meaningful difference in their stance on the gang of eight immigration reform bill. There was no real substantive debate about immigration in general - the focus was on drawing a contrast for voters.

deagle50 10y ago

The downside of indirect democracy coupled with corporate meritocracy is that the strongest players rise quickly and then rig the game to enshrine their elite position. This is what happened shortly after WW2 and we've been pawns in their experiments since.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

They voted for more globalism, they just haven't realised this yet. Because they're stupid. And racist.

reitanqild 10y ago
You either are wrong or have to work on when and how to apply your sarcasm.
dang 10y ago
Please don't make a divisive thread still worse by posting empty name-calling. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977750 and marked it off-topic.

Futurebot 10y ago

This is probably the best thing Greenwald has ever written. Everyone in (or interested in) media, politics, government, academia, etc. should read it carefully and with a wide open mind. Grappling with this piece, its linked pieces, and Twilight of the Elites should be something that is now done in earnest; this is a chance for elites in other troubled western countries to work on getting ahead of the problem, as they failed to do previously, before it really gets out of hand. The status quo is a failure, and continued denial will only lead us down an ever-darker road. We need a new way.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
_yosefk 10y ago
Except few Leave voters would agree with his explanations of their vote or want him as their representative, I'd guess. So him talking about failure to listen is a bit funny.
- Futurebot 10y ago
  Sure, that's probably true. They don't need to listen to him, though; elites do. Then elites, through various mechanisms, need to a) communicate effectively to do those who are now disaffected and more importantly b) create conditions where bigotry (and other forms of exclusion) do not overtake good sense because of economic pressures / scarcity / perceived scarcity. It certainly won't be overnight, but the sooner they start, the sooner we can start fixing things.
  - _yosefk 10y ago
    What if you and TFA are both wrong in that the opposite of bigotry and exclusion is completely open borders and that the latter is desirable? What if control over immigration policy is a legitimate thing to seek regardless of "perceived scarcity"? Or what if it's not legitimate but that's what the public genuinely wants? What if (much of) the root cause is in many other issues with European integration that many Europeans don't like even though you and TFA think integration is the cat's whiskers?

Sketch22 10y ago

I call BS on your 'justification'. It is defacto use of Godwin's Law. There were people who voted for Mayor Khan because he was muslim. So everyone who voted for Sadiq supports ISIS. There were people who voted for President Obama because he is black. So everyone who voted for Obama is a racist. There are people who openly state that they will vote for Hillary because she is a woman. So everyone who votes for (dry heave) Hillary is a sexist. That is your reasoning. I bet Hitler liked spaghetti, too...

htns 10y ago
There were also people who voted for Hitler because they were racist. But maybe there were voters who did not really hate the jews. Perhaps they only wanted to seize their property. It's important to make the distinction.
mgkimsal 10y ago
WTF? I specifically did not say "everyone" anywhere. "It was a factor for some portion". And yes, some people voted for Obama specifically because of his race (and some voted against him because of his race). Others had other reasons for voting; same with Brexit voters.
dang 10y ago
That's a serious distortion of what mgkimsal said. (And isn't "defacto use of Godwin's Law" a contradiction in terms?) A little less "I call BS" and a little more Principle of Charity, please, if you want to keep commenting here. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977900 and marked it off-topic.

cygx 10y ago

I suspect it's more about public perception than hard facts: There's a huge difference in opinion about the EU in its member states, even those in ostensibly similar economic circumstances. Take some of its smaller members with a similar GDP per capita (entries 37-42 of [1]), and compare their agreement with the statement (OUR COUNTRY) could better face the future outside the EU according to Special Eurobarometer 415 from 2014 [2][3]: Agree Disagree Czech Republic 42% 49% Slovenia 42% 48% Slovakia 28% 64% Estonia 21% 74% Lithuania 22% 71% Portugal 37% 52% The Eurobarometer poll had the UK at 47% agree / 41% disagree, so one could have predicted a result of 53% in favour of leaving the EU, which is not far off and likely influenced by common anti-EU rhetoric among British media and politicians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... [2] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_415_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_415_en.p... [3] http://i.imgur.com/2kNwdtf.png http://i.imgur.com/2kNwdtf.png

mwfunk 10y ago

This article made lots of great points, but I fundamentally disagree with bucketing everyone into "elites" (whatever that means) and "everyone else". Every leader (within the media, a government, a political party, etc.) is an elite by the definitions used here. Trump is an elite. The politicians behind Leave are elites. They may be trying to displace other elites with different views, but that doesn't mean they themselves aren't elites. They're just really good at convincing people that they are disenfranchised.

optimusclimb 10y ago
I'm with you on the elites bit. It strikes me as the kind of ambiguous blanket term that will leave some student 20-40 years from now reading a primary source from this time period scratching their head, trying to understand exactly who the elites the author mentioned so many times were.

api 10y ago

I've been thinking things like this for years, especially about a "general loss of confidence." For me the two most confidence-destroying events of the past two decades were Iraq and the 2008 financial bailouts/crisis (and the housing bubble that caused it and is still delivering pain). Both of these occurred under the Bush Jr. administration or very shortly after it. For years I've seen Bush Jr. as the worst president of the past 100 years -- far worse than Nixon and Johnson -- and now I'm seeing quite a bit of real world confirmation of this. On the other hand I'm not a huge Obama fan either. He ran as a "change" candidate, but seems to have more or less stayed the course. That's been disastrous.

davidf18 10y ago

A very lengthy article. Still, he is correct about the Republican, Democratic, and British political elites ignoring the working class. The Republican Elite complain about Trump, yet, they offered nobody, nobody at all that addressed the concerns of the working class. Charles Murray (The Bell Curve) has spoken about this a similar manner. Here is an interesting article from The Guardian about Trump that is consistent with the OP article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald...

UK-AL 10y ago

If brexit was a vote anti-globalism and being nationalist, then the voters are in for a big surprise. Vote leave have been explicit in about being globalist.

arca_vorago 10y ago

When the international bankers couldn't pass the Aldrich bill, they renamed it the federal reserve bill, started a public campaign about how "bad for the banks" the bill would be, while secretly funding economics professors across the country. The people, thinking anything bad for the bank was good for the people, campaigned for the federal reserve bill, and it was passed by only a few people after much of the house/senate had gone home for the holidays. I highly suspect a similar style of propaganda going on with the brexit, up to and including voting fraud. I think the electronic voting systems are highly likely to be manipulable.

benaadams 10y ago
We have no electronic voting; all hand counted paper in public
- arca_vorago 10y ago
  I just happened to read that this morning, so it looks like I was wrong about that. Thanks for the correction!

la6470 10y ago

As long as globalization was working in favor of the western population it was perfectly fine, now suddenly when you guys find that the Chinese and Indians are as good as you the white westerners you are suddenly insecure and globalization is bad. Where were your morality when globalization killed hundreds and thousands of traditional industries in the emerging markets, when it destroyed the cultural fabric ruthlessly of these countries and the forces of globalization was unleashed like a storm on those countries?