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Apple launches coding camps for kids in its retail stores

250 points by pavornyoh 10y ago

s3r3nity 10y ago
It seems like a lot of folks don't give Tim Cook enough credit in the post-Steve Jobs world for a lot of the philanthropic work Apple has done for education (as well as for the LGBTQ community.) Kudos to them for this initiative - and I'll be excited if this expands to adults at some point.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  I'm sure Cook and team do great philanthropic work. But this sounds like it's at least as much marketing as philanthropy. I think Microsoft has learned that despite near ubiquity, their platform didn't cross the chasm to mobile computing devices well/at all. They know it was due to the fact that the engineers who targeted those devices preferred to work with linux/BSD. Apple has invested in LLVM+Swift as a part of this strategy and wants to drive new waves of software development for their platform. These coding camps are part of that effort.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  When I was an intern at Apple I asked Tim what the hardest part was about filling in Steve's shoes and he said: "Steve was my friend, and I don't believe a friend could ever replace a friend, so I chose to run Apple like Tim." I've always respected that answer.
  - ohstopitu 10y ago
    what did you intern as, at Apple?
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      Can't talk about it ;)
- draw_down 10y ago
  I wouldn't really call it philanthropic. Tech companies do this sort of stuff because of labor costs.
  - MBCook 10y ago
    What do you mean because of labor costs? Do you think they're going to hire 12 year olds? If anything this will increase labor costs because now they need Geniuses to cover these classes (as well as costs for possible damage to the iPads used) in addition to normal Apple store staffing.
    - vacri 10y ago
      If they're playing the long game, then the more people that are interested in developing, the lower their wage bill will be down the track. I'm not sure if that's what the GP is talking about, but it's one way this could help.
- angry-hacker 10y ago
  And people say on HN advertising doesn't work :)) It's all to make you buy their products, my friend. No big company is doing philanthropy just for the sake of it. Instead of paying taxes honestly (yrs, it's legal what they are doing, but not ethical), they bribe you with LGBT campaign. Bufff.
dublinben 10y ago
I don't think it's necessarily fair to call this program "philanthropic." It's teaching kids how to use proprietary and commercial software, like iMovie, iBooks, and Tynker, when completely free alternatives exist like Blender and Scratch. This is essentially building a new generation of future Apple customers.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  It's still better than nothing. If Uncle Ben's rice donates its branded rice to victims of a natural disaster - provided the containers say "Uncle Ben's Rice" - would you refuse it for a generic?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dublinben 10y ago
    If I were a relief agency, and those were the terms of their donation, I would refuse it. If they aren't willing to donate without making it a marketing opportunity, it's not really charity/philanthropy.
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      Wow. You would rather people starve than look at a logo? Wow.
      - dublinben 10y ago
        No, they would rather let people starve than not look at their logo.
    - michaelvoz 10y ago
      Then I am glad you are not a relief agency...
  - Grue3 10y ago
coleca 10y ago
A few years back my daughter went to movie camp at the Apple Store. It was really well done and they taught the kids all about making movies, how to edit, and at the end they had a big screening of all the movies the kids in the class made for all the parents. She even got a nice apple t shirt and usb keychain. Glad to see they are now expanding it to coding.
goldenkey 10y ago
Its a lot different considering that eating Uncle Ben's afro-american rice doesnt indoctrinate someone into a skillset of only eating long grain pilaf rice. Ie a toolset that only works on mac and thus providing future customers, advocates, and users of Apple products. You really should avoid these shit-for-brains analogies on a forum like HN. We are better than that.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Apparently not everyone...
- dang 10y ago
  You've repeatedly posted uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN. Please stop doing that. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947087 and marked it off-topic.
danso 10y ago
Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and also, one that seems to be nearly all upside for Apple. Great PR, good benefit to society, increased buzz at the brick and mortar stores, and the cost of running these camps seem like it would be more than paid for by kids who are not only buying the programmable peripherals (anyone have experience hacking the Sphero?), but Apple products for all of their coding lives.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coders and users is creating parallel worlds of echo-chamber wizards and ignorant commoners.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. Yes. That's exactly how it would be, for whatever small fraction of current computer users were able and willing to adapt to that paradigm. You're absolutely right about the separation between people who understand how computers work and people who only use them. Your second sentence in this comment is a brilliant example of the "echo-chamber wizard" school.
  - schoen 10y ago
    I believe as you do and in basically the same terms, but, having had forms of this discussion for much of my life, I've encountered a counterargument that I thought I'd bring up as a devil's advocate: > the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus Isn't "the way computers actually work" at a fundamental level about electrical engineering, or at least about machine instructions? If you're using Unix commands, hasn't a whole lot of work already been done to create the abstractions of pipes, file descriptors, files, filesystems, and so on? Is it clear that there is some sense in which these abstractions are faithful and true to the machine and technology, where other software abstractions are not?
robertcorey 10y ago
They're taking our jobs!
alongub 10y ago
That's a really good idea to make the future developers learn the Apple platform. But Microsoft had a better one; to buy Minecraft and add it to Visual Studio.
Michie 10y ago
I like Apple's initiative but why use a third party application instead of their Swift Playground? It seems more appropriate and based on what's shown on WWDC, it's not that hard to learn. This is a possible sign that Tynker can be bought by Apple soon to be integrated with Swift Playground.
- glhaynes 10y ago
  Swift Playgrounds only runs on the iOS 10 beta and is itself still in a prerelease form.
  - Michie 10y ago
    It's possible that it still runs on iOS 10 beta, but based on their sample templates and what they have used in WWDC16, it's already a fully functional app. Better implementation than Tynker. And it's also a good preview for future coders to use.
    - glhaynes 10y ago
      Yeah, and it might even be the best choice to use it. I'd guess it would be. But it feels against Apple's "house style" to use unreleased software in that way.
- simonbw 10y ago
  The answer given by the article: However, that app [Swift Playground] is aimed at slightly older children – those aged 12 and up. But I have no idea if that's the real reason.
  - Michie 10y ago
    If you have tried the Swift Playground, you'd realize even 6-8 years old can actually use it.
plg 10y ago
I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself
- aphextron 10y ago
  Sounds about what I expected. If there's anything kids hate, it's being patronized.
- jshevek 10y ago
  Yes, given the level of competence of the staff at Apple stores, it seems unlikely there could be a worthwhile coding camp at that venue. Apple would need to bring in some much higher caliber people.
  - ralfd 10y ago
    Urgh, it is basics of coding course for 8 year olds. What do people expect? Albert Einstein giving lessons?
    - pducks32 10y ago
      I don't speak German and I already know Swift but I'd go to see that!
    - jshevek 10y ago
      In my experience, 8 year olds often ask more penetrating questions than adults. If they take an interest in understanding something, they often desire to understand it on the deepest level possible for them - quickly exceeding the capacity of their parent or teacher to explain (unless the adult is a 'renaissance person'). (Edit: or a competent teacher with adequate training relevant to the subject) If the 8 year olds are really encouraged to explore and ask questions (vs 'jump through these hoops, follow instructions), the staff at apple will most likely be unable to answer their questions.
s_dev 10y ago
People often suggest that we should be teaching programming in primary/elementary school to kids. I'm skeptical that that would encourage kids to code. This opinion is particularly espoused by politicians who can't code but want to be seen as technically progressive. I think part of loving programming is discovering it on your own and seeking it out. Events/Sessions like this and CoderDojo that we have here in Ireland are more effective at evangelising kids to code because it endows a greater sense of autonomy to the individual that what you get in a classroom and I think thats a more conducive environment to encourage coding.
- jeffwass 10y ago
  I've long felt that the utility of learning to code was less about vocational training but more about analytical thinking. Ie, figuring out how to solve problems by analysing a task and breaking it into small and discrete bite-size pieces that can be understood by a computer's rule set.
  - blendo 10y ago
    Hopefully a course like UC Berkeley's "CS10: The Beauty and Joy of Computing" can point the way: http://cs10.org/su16/ http://cs10.org/su16/ "But this course is far more than just learning to program. We'll focus on some of the "Big Ideas" of computing, such as abstraction, design, recursion, concurrency, simulations, and the limits of computation. We'll show some beautiful applications of computing that have changed the world, talk about the history of computing, and where it will go in the future. Throughout the course, relevance will be emphasized: relevance to the student and to society. As an example, the final project will be completely of the students' choosing, on a topic most interesting to them. The overarching theme is to expose students to the beauty and joy of computing. This course is designed for computing non-majors, although interested majors are certainly welcome to take the class as well! We are especially excited about bringing computing (through this course) to traditionally under-represented groups in computing, i.e., women and ethnic minorities."
- dominotw 10y ago
  >I think part of loving programming is discovering it on your own and seeking it out. Agreed. Schools kill joys of learning. I hated history in school, but now I am big ancient history enthusiast. Most of my friends associate history with boring stuff taught to kids. Programming should be discovered by kids and adults on their own
sangnoir 10y ago
I find this program ironic since Apple locks down iDevices pretty hard - their App Store rules prohibit coding[1] on iPhones & iPads. If anyone were to attempt to make an interpreter/port Scratch or Python to iOS, the app would not be approved. 1. §3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded.
- rsfinn 10y ago
  Perhaps you haven't heard about Pythonista, which is a full Python programming environment available on the App Store. Now there's also Playgrounds, which is a Swift programming environment that comes with the iOS 10 beta and runs on the iPad (you can even invoke iOS frameworks, apparently) — yes, this is from Apple itself, and yes, they're bending their own rules. But your original statement is not strictly true.
  - Razengan 10y ago
    There has always been things like Codea as well, for a long time now: [1] http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/ http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/
  - Longhanks 10y ago
    In what way are they bending their own rules? The application comes with it's own Swift compiler and exposes only the public APIs. Nothing Pythonista couldn't do already.
    - nickmain 10y ago
      Pythonista cannot open code from other apps so all code has to originate in the app (other than copy-paste). Swift Playgrounds can round-trip with XCode.
  - sirn 10y ago
    Pythonista can invoke iOS frameworks too[1]. 1: https://files.grid.in.th/7KXJ4O.jpg https://files.grid.in.th/7KXJ4O.jpg (from Pythonista's examples)
skocznymroczny 10y ago
Why aren't there any white people on the pictures?
- terrywilcox 10y ago
  Because you need glasses?
gshulegaard 10y ago
I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a misguided stab at improving child tech education which has quickly fallen behind demand (in America). Do I think the approach is more than a little bit wrong? Sure, GUI programming a non-useful task wouldn't be my choice. Would I prefer a more robust longer-term program? Absolutely. Does this fall well short of actually being useful/addressing the original problem? More than likely. But despite of all that, I would much rather have Apple try this and hopefully improve on the offering pending demonstrated interest than not have it at all.
- jshevek 10y ago
  For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.
  - gshulegaard 10y ago
    While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that: > Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served. I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.
    - jshevek 10y ago
      > I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for. Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of. [1] > launching their own coding camps I think what apple is doing right now is 'mostly harmless'. The strategy is flawed and antisocial, but the reach and impact is minimal. However, if all the major players started competing in this area, I think it could quickly became a significant net loss for our society. Established for profit tech corporations with eco-system oriented agendas are not well suited for the role of designing or choosing educational programs for our youth, their self interest is too narrow and all consuming. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-190k-diversify-male-dominated-tech-industry-article-1.1928682 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-...
jshevek 10y ago
Another distressing characteristic of apple's tactics is that it increases social inequality. (Let's set aside those irrational SJWs that have arisen lately - there can be a rational approach to social justice). There are some pretty clear demographic divides in apple users vs everyone else. Apple could have donated to non-profits that especially serve under-privileged people, especially financially disadvantaged children. Instead, they are 'educating the youth' in a way that is automatically biased towards the most privileged people. Outreach programs won't change the fact that they are locating it in their stores. (Edited the adjectives for SJWs)
- jahewson 10y ago
  By that logic Apple's users could have purchased cheaper non-Apple products and donated the remaining money to non-profits. This entire line of moral reasonsing just doesn't work. Charitable causes do not trump the entirety of the rest of human endeavour and for-profit entities are not intrinsically amoral.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    > Charitable causes do not trump the entirety of the rest of human endeavour and for-profit entities are not intrinsically amoral. These are trivial near-tautologies addressing irrelevant and extreme positions. For example, some "charitable" causes are outright corrupt. > By that logic Apple's users could have purchased cheaper non-Apple products and donated the remaining money to non-profits. Most of us buy expensive hardware because we want expensive hardware, not because we want to pretend to be doing good in the world. Anyone foolish enough to think that they are making the world a better place by buying apple products would be appropriately subject to the same criticism: it would be far better if they bought cheaper hardware and used the difference in some intelligent way to make the world a better place. > This entire line of moral reasonsing just doesn't work. That's what happens when you apply slippery slope style reasoning unnecessarily. There is nothing illogical about looking at both (a) what one actually does and (b) what one could do - especially if there are entities praising your questionable actions as socially benign. You are correct that one 'could always do better', but that is not a 'get out criticism free' card. Further, it needn't by itself change anyone's choice of where they draw the line for "more helpful than harmful". I believe that apple's actions here are more harmful than helpful, and the fact that their actions increase the divide between haves and have-nots is part of that evaluation.
thenadamgoes 10y ago
Can I do the coding camp? I'd like to learn...
dschep 10y ago
Microsoft already does one day events in their stores. My SO who's an elementary school teacher took her class to one of them.
- vblord 10y ago
  I didn't know that. I found the link to the MS summer camps. https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/youthsparkhub/programs/yscamps/ https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/yo...
rjvir 10y ago
I remember going to Apple Camp as a kid (around 2006). At the time, they had different sessions teaching kids how to "edit movies", "make music", "build websites" etc. They were showing us how to use iMovie, GarageBand, and iWeb. After attending those camps, I so badly wanted a Mac.
fjrjfjdjjdd 10y ago
Well, personally, I think the cookie-cutter "I'm surprised by the negativity here" comments at the top of every marginally controversial HN post are a bit surprising.
- shrugger 10y ago
  Yep, every fucking thread there's some "Oh wow, people have opinions that are different from mine" comment, and then a bunch of pseudo-meta discussion that just clogs up the site. HN is the worst possible implementation of HN.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 10y ago
    You've repeatedly posted uncivil and unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. Please stop doing that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
    - shrugger 10y ago
      You've repeatedly censored dozens of people and fostered an unwelcome space for people who are smarter than you and people with different opinions than yours. Please stop doing that.
- dang 10y ago
  We've banned this account. Creating throwaway accounts to break the HN guidelines with is an abuse of this site. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 and marked it off-topic.
  - chfhjcnfd 10y ago
    So what are you going to do about it? I'm not being uncivil: I'm merely pointing out HN's hypocrisy when I see it.
taytus 10y ago
Why surprised? This is HN
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  I suppose I anticipated a more open reception to the idea of Apple leveraging it's brick and mortar locations for something like this from a tech oriented community. Not that you have to like the course, there is a lot to dislike about it, but the melding of Apple's store location infrastructure for providing accessible child bootcamps certainly is an interesting concept. I was surprised everyone chose to focus on the course content instead (at least when I wrote the comment originally).
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't post about how bad HN is while making it worse yourself. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 and marked it off-topic.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
iamleppert 10y ago
It would be more useful to teach them an ultra-simple language like BASIC (there was an article posted about it recently -- the early DOS version -- still being the best language/IDE to teach kids), or even a stripped down version of javascript. Imagine the advantages in pure thought that would come for those kids that are able to grok functional programming at age 8?
- rimantas 10y ago
  Why do you want to expose kids to the horrible mess called JavaScript? And you can teach functional programming with Swift, thank you very much.
sten 10y ago
Does anyone else ever wonder if this is part of a long term strategy to reduce costs by inflating the pool of developers? Corporations can think long term.
LELISOSKA 10y ago
for a second i thought it said walmart in the beginning
reedlaw 10y ago
As much as I want to cheer this it leaves me with the sour thought that modern Apple robbed kids of the joys the original Apple afforded. Growing up with the Apple II+ in our home I was programming from an early age because that was the primary activity you could do with one right out of the box. Look at the loops you have to run through to unleash the power of the iPad. Developer accounts, EULAs, closed APIs. Where is the modern equivalent of computer clubs where most members could code or at least were interested?

250 points by pavornyoh 10y ago

It seems like a lot of folks don't give Tim Cook enough credit in the post-Steve Jobs world for a lot of the philanthropic work Apple has done for education (as well as for the LGBTQ community.) Kudos to them for this initiative - and I'll be excited if this expands to adults at some point.

wyldfire 10y ago
I'm sure Cook and team do great philanthropic work. But this sounds like it's at least as much marketing as philanthropy. I think Microsoft has learned that despite near ubiquity, their platform didn't cross the chasm to mobile computing devices well/at all. They know it was due to the fact that the engineers who targeted those devices preferred to work with linux/BSD. Apple has invested in LLVM+Swift as a part of this strategy and wants to drive new waves of software development for their platform. These coding camps are part of that effort.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
When I was an intern at Apple I asked Tim what the hardest part was about filling in Steve's shoes and he said: "Steve was my friend, and I don't believe a friend could ever replace a friend, so I chose to run Apple like Tim." I've always respected that answer.
- ohstopitu 10y ago
  what did you intern as, at Apple?
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Can't talk about it ;)
draw_down 10y ago
I wouldn't really call it philanthropic. Tech companies do this sort of stuff because of labor costs.
- MBCook 10y ago
  What do you mean because of labor costs? Do you think they're going to hire 12 year olds? If anything this will increase labor costs because now they need Geniuses to cover these classes (as well as costs for possible damage to the iPads used) in addition to normal Apple store staffing.
  - vacri 10y ago
    If they're playing the long game, then the more people that are interested in developing, the lower their wage bill will be down the track. I'm not sure if that's what the GP is talking about, but it's one way this could help.
angry-hacker 10y ago
And people say on HN advertising doesn't work :)) It's all to make you buy their products, my friend. No big company is doing philanthropy just for the sake of it. Instead of paying taxes honestly (yrs, it's legal what they are doing, but not ethical), they bribe you with LGBT campaign. Bufff.

dublinben 10y ago

I don't think it's necessarily fair to call this program "philanthropic." It's teaching kids how to use proprietary and commercial software, like iMovie, iBooks, and Tynker, when completely free alternatives exist like Blender and Scratch. This is essentially building a new generation of future Apple customers.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
It's still better than nothing. If Uncle Ben's rice donates its branded rice to victims of a natural disaster - provided the containers say "Uncle Ben's Rice" - would you refuse it for a generic?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dublinben 10y ago
  If I were a relief agency, and those were the terms of their donation, I would refuse it. If they aren't willing to donate without making it a marketing opportunity, it's not really charity/philanthropy.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Wow. You would rather people starve than look at a logo? Wow.
    - dublinben 10y ago
      No, they would rather let people starve than not look at their logo.
  - michaelvoz 10y ago
    Then I am glad you are not a relief agency...
- Grue3 10y ago

coleca 10y ago

A few years back my daughter went to movie camp at the Apple Store. It was really well done and they taught the kids all about making movies, how to edit, and at the end they had a big screening of all the movies the kids in the class made for all the parents. She even got a nice apple t shirt and usb keychain. Glad to see they are now expanding it to coding.

goldenkey 10y ago

Its a lot different considering that eating Uncle Ben's afro-american rice doesnt indoctrinate someone into a skillset of only eating long grain pilaf rice. Ie a toolset that only works on mac and thus providing future customers, advocates, and users of Apple products. You really should avoid these shit-for-brains analogies on a forum like HN. We are better than that.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Apparently not everyone...
dang 10y ago
You've repeatedly posted uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN. Please stop doing that. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947087 and marked it off-topic.

danso 10y ago

Ironically, I sometimes fear Apple would be the harbinger of programming's death, what with how much can be done via consumer-friendly app and touch-screens. It didn't help hearing about OSX becoming macOS, which would be well in line with a dystopian future in which the only people who need to know about plaintext and file systems are the full-time Apple programmers. But this sounds like a great initiative...and also, one that seems to be nearly all upside for Apple. Great PR, good benefit to society, increased buzz at the brick and mortar stores, and the cost of running these camps seem like it would be more than paid for by kids who are not only buying the programmable peripherals (anyone have experience hacking the Sphero?), but Apple products for all of their coding lives.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I think the invention of the GUI killed the dream of mainstream programming. If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. I really hope that raspberry PI gets more mainstream appeal as time goes on. I fear the separation between coders and users is creating parallel worlds of echo-chamber wizards and ignorant commoners.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > If computers had to be interacted with in ways that resembled programming - like a UNIX prompt - then people would be more used to the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus. Yes. That's exactly how it would be, for whatever small fraction of current computer users were able and willing to adapt to that paradigm. You're absolutely right about the separation between people who understand how computers work and people who only use them. Your second sentence in this comment is a brilliant example of the "echo-chamber wizard" school.
- schoen 10y ago
  I believe as you do and in basically the same terms, but, having had forms of this discussion for much of my life, I've encountered a counterargument that I thought I'd bring up as a devil's advocate: > the way computers actually work, with functions and parameters instead of icons and settings menus Isn't "the way computers actually work" at a fundamental level about electrical engineering, or at least about machine instructions? If you're using Unix commands, hasn't a whole lot of work already been done to create the abstractions of pipes, file descriptors, files, filesystems, and so on? Is it clear that there is some sense in which these abstractions are faithful and true to the machine and technology, where other software abstractions are not?

robertcorey 10y ago

They're taking our jobs!

alongub 10y ago

That's a really good idea to make the future developers learn the Apple platform. But Microsoft had a better one; to buy Minecraft and add it to Visual Studio.

Michie 10y ago

I like Apple's initiative but why use a third party application instead of their Swift Playground? It seems more appropriate and based on what's shown on WWDC, it's not that hard to learn. This is a possible sign that Tynker can be bought by Apple soon to be integrated with Swift Playground.

glhaynes 10y ago
Swift Playgrounds only runs on the iOS 10 beta and is itself still in a prerelease form.
- Michie 10y ago
  It's possible that it still runs on iOS 10 beta, but based on their sample templates and what they have used in WWDC16, it's already a fully functional app. Better implementation than Tynker. And it's also a good preview for future coders to use.
  - glhaynes 10y ago
    Yeah, and it might even be the best choice to use it. I'd guess it would be. But it feels against Apple's "house style" to use unreleased software in that way.
simonbw 10y ago
The answer given by the article: However, that app [Swift Playground] is aimed at slightly older children – those aged 12 and up. But I have no idea if that's the real reason.
- Michie 10y ago
  If you have tried the Swift Playground, you'd realize even 6-8 years old can actually use it.

plg 10y ago

I took my kid to one of these last year. It was fairly useless. They drag around little action-icons into a list to make an animated character move around and do stuff. My 11-year-old was bored stiff. Edit: PS the Apple Store employee who ran this thing (he was a very nice guy) admitted he had zero coding experience himself

aphextron 10y ago
Sounds about what I expected. If there's anything kids hate, it's being patronized.
jshevek 10y ago
Yes, given the level of competence of the staff at Apple stores, it seems unlikely there could be a worthwhile coding camp at that venue. Apple would need to bring in some much higher caliber people.
- ralfd 10y ago
  Urgh, it is basics of coding course for 8 year olds. What do people expect? Albert Einstein giving lessons?
  - pducks32 10y ago
    I don't speak German and I already know Swift but I'd go to see that!
  - jshevek 10y ago
    In my experience, 8 year olds often ask more penetrating questions than adults. If they take an interest in understanding something, they often desire to understand it on the deepest level possible for them - quickly exceeding the capacity of their parent or teacher to explain (unless the adult is a 'renaissance person'). (Edit: or a competent teacher with adequate training relevant to the subject) If the 8 year olds are really encouraged to explore and ask questions (vs 'jump through these hoops, follow instructions), the staff at apple will most likely be unable to answer their questions.

s_dev 10y ago

People often suggest that we should be teaching programming in primary/elementary school to kids. I'm skeptical that that would encourage kids to code. This opinion is particularly espoused by politicians who can't code but want to be seen as technically progressive. I think part of loving programming is discovering it on your own and seeking it out. Events/Sessions like this and CoderDojo that we have here in Ireland are more effective at evangelising kids to code because it endows a greater sense of autonomy to the individual that what you get in a classroom and I think thats a more conducive environment to encourage coding.

jeffwass 10y ago
I've long felt that the utility of learning to code was less about vocational training but more about analytical thinking. Ie, figuring out how to solve problems by analysing a task and breaking it into small and discrete bite-size pieces that can be understood by a computer's rule set.
- blendo 10y ago
  Hopefully a course like UC Berkeley's "CS10: The Beauty and Joy of Computing" can point the way: http://cs10.org/su16/ http://cs10.org/su16/ "But this course is far more than just learning to program. We'll focus on some of the "Big Ideas" of computing, such as abstraction, design, recursion, concurrency, simulations, and the limits of computation. We'll show some beautiful applications of computing that have changed the world, talk about the history of computing, and where it will go in the future. Throughout the course, relevance will be emphasized: relevance to the student and to society. As an example, the final project will be completely of the students' choosing, on a topic most interesting to them. The overarching theme is to expose students to the beauty and joy of computing. This course is designed for computing non-majors, although interested majors are certainly welcome to take the class as well! We are especially excited about bringing computing (through this course) to traditionally under-represented groups in computing, i.e., women and ethnic minorities."
dominotw 10y ago
>I think part of loving programming is discovering it on your own and seeking it out. Agreed. Schools kill joys of learning. I hated history in school, but now I am big ancient history enthusiast. Most of my friends associate history with boring stuff taught to kids. Programming should be discovered by kids and adults on their own

sangnoir 10y ago

I find this program ironic since Apple locks down iDevices pretty hard - their App Store rules prohibit coding[1] on iPhones & iPads. If anyone were to attempt to make an interpreter/port Scratch or Python to iOS, the app would not be approved. 1. §3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded.

rsfinn 10y ago
Perhaps you haven't heard about Pythonista, which is a full Python programming environment available on the App Store. Now there's also Playgrounds, which is a Swift programming environment that comes with the iOS 10 beta and runs on the iPad (you can even invoke iOS frameworks, apparently) — yes, this is from Apple itself, and yes, they're bending their own rules. But your original statement is not strictly true.
- Razengan 10y ago
  There has always been things like Codea as well, for a long time now: [1] http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/ http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/
- Longhanks 10y ago
  In what way are they bending their own rules? The application comes with it's own Swift compiler and exposes only the public APIs. Nothing Pythonista couldn't do already.
  - nickmain 10y ago
    Pythonista cannot open code from other apps so all code has to originate in the app (other than copy-paste). Swift Playgrounds can round-trip with XCode.
- sirn 10y ago
  Pythonista can invoke iOS frameworks too[1]. 1: https://files.grid.in.th/7KXJ4O.jpg https://files.grid.in.th/7KXJ4O.jpg (from Pythonista's examples)

skocznymroczny 10y ago

Why aren't there any white people on the pictures?

terrywilcox 10y ago
Because you need glasses?

gshulegaard 10y ago

I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a misguided stab at improving child tech education which has quickly fallen behind demand (in America). Do I think the approach is more than a little bit wrong? Sure, GUI programming a non-useful task wouldn't be my choice. Would I prefer a more robust longer-term program? Absolutely. Does this fall well short of actually being useful/addressing the original problem? More than likely. But despite of all that, I would much rather have Apple try this and hopefully improve on the offering pending demonstrated interest than not have it at all.

jshevek 10y ago
For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that: > Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served. I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    > I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for. Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of. [1] > launching their own coding camps I think what apple is doing right now is 'mostly harmless'. The strategy is flawed and antisocial, but the reach and impact is minimal. However, if all the major players started competing in this area, I think it could quickly became a significant net loss for our society. Established for profit tech corporations with eco-system oriented agendas are not well suited for the role of designing or choosing educational programs for our youth, their self interest is too narrow and all consuming. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-190k-diversify-male-dominated-tech-industry-article-1.1928682 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-...

jshevek 10y ago

Another distressing characteristic of apple's tactics is that it increases social inequality. (Let's set aside those irrational SJWs that have arisen lately - there can be a rational approach to social justice). There are some pretty clear demographic divides in apple users vs everyone else. Apple could have donated to non-profits that especially serve under-privileged people, especially financially disadvantaged children. Instead, they are 'educating the youth' in a way that is automatically biased towards the most privileged people. Outreach programs won't change the fact that they are locating it in their stores. (Edited the adjectives for SJWs)

jahewson 10y ago
By that logic Apple's users could have purchased cheaper non-Apple products and donated the remaining money to non-profits. This entire line of moral reasonsing just doesn't work. Charitable causes do not trump the entirety of the rest of human endeavour and for-profit entities are not intrinsically amoral.
- jshevek 10y ago
  > Charitable causes do not trump the entirety of the rest of human endeavour and for-profit entities are not intrinsically amoral. These are trivial near-tautologies addressing irrelevant and extreme positions. For example, some "charitable" causes are outright corrupt. > By that logic Apple's users could have purchased cheaper non-Apple products and donated the remaining money to non-profits. Most of us buy expensive hardware because we want expensive hardware, not because we want to pretend to be doing good in the world. Anyone foolish enough to think that they are making the world a better place by buying apple products would be appropriately subject to the same criticism: it would be far better if they bought cheaper hardware and used the difference in some intelligent way to make the world a better place. > This entire line of moral reasonsing just doesn't work. That's what happens when you apply slippery slope style reasoning unnecessarily. There is nothing illogical about looking at both (a) what one actually does and (b) what one could do - especially if there are entities praising your questionable actions as socially benign. You are correct that one 'could always do better', but that is not a 'get out criticism free' card. Further, it needn't by itself change anyone's choice of where they draw the line for "more helpful than harmful". I believe that apple's actions here are more harmful than helpful, and the fact that their actions increase the divide between haves and have-nots is part of that evaluation.

thenadamgoes 10y ago

Can I do the coding camp? I'd like to learn...

dschep 10y ago

Microsoft already does one day events in their stores. My SO who's an elementary school teacher took her class to one of them.

vblord 10y ago
I didn't know that. I found the link to the MS summer camps. https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/youthsparkhub/programs/yscamps/ https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/yo...

rjvir 10y ago

I remember going to Apple Camp as a kid (around 2006). At the time, they had different sessions teaching kids how to "edit movies", "make music", "build websites" etc. They were showing us how to use iMovie, GarageBand, and iWeb. After attending those camps, I so badly wanted a Mac.

fjrjfjdjjdd 10y ago

Well, personally, I think the cookie-cutter "I'm surprised by the negativity here" comments at the top of every marginally controversial HN post are a bit surprising.

shrugger 10y ago
Yep, every fucking thread there's some "Oh wow, people have opinions that are different from mine" comment, and then a bunch of pseudo-meta discussion that just clogs up the site. HN is the worst possible implementation of HN.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 10y ago
  You've repeatedly posted uncivil and unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. Please stop doing that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
  - shrugger 10y ago
    You've repeatedly censored dozens of people and fostered an unwelcome space for people who are smarter than you and people with different opinions than yours. Please stop doing that.
dang 10y ago
We've banned this account. Creating throwaway accounts to break the HN guidelines with is an abuse of this site. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 and marked it off-topic.
- chfhjcnfd 10y ago
  So what are you going to do about it? I'm not being uncivil: I'm merely pointing out HN's hypocrisy when I see it.

taytus 10y ago

Why surprised? This is HN

gshulegaard 10y ago
I suppose I anticipated a more open reception to the idea of Apple leveraging it's brick and mortar locations for something like this from a tech oriented community. Not that you have to like the course, there is a lot to dislike about it, but the melding of Apple's store location infrastructure for providing accessible child bootcamps certainly is an interesting concept. I was surprised everyone chose to focus on the course content instead (at least when I wrote the comment originally).
dang 10y ago
Please don't post about how bad HN is while making it worse yourself. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948160 and marked it off-topic.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

iamleppert 10y ago

It would be more useful to teach them an ultra-simple language like BASIC (there was an article posted about it recently -- the early DOS version -- still being the best language/IDE to teach kids), or even a stripped down version of javascript. Imagine the advantages in pure thought that would come for those kids that are able to grok functional programming at age 8?

rimantas 10y ago
Why do you want to expose kids to the horrible mess called JavaScript? And you can teach functional programming with Swift, thank you very much.

sten 10y ago

Does anyone else ever wonder if this is part of a long term strategy to reduce costs by inflating the pool of developers? Corporations can think long term.

LELISOSKA 10y ago

for a second i thought it said walmart in the beginning

reedlaw 10y ago

As much as I want to cheer this it leaves me with the sour thought that modern Apple robbed kids of the joys the original Apple afforded. Growing up with the Apple II+ in our home I was programming from an early age because that was the primary activity you could do with one right out of the box. Look at the loops you have to run through to unleash the power of the iPad. Developer accounts, EULAs, closed APIs. Where is the modern equivalent of computer clubs where most members could code or at least were interested?