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Amazon's express delivery service rattles Paris authorities
- delecti 10y agoI'm always amused by the different default positions that different legal systems take. In America the default position would be (outside of certain highly regulated industries like drugs/medical) "let them do what they want unless a problem arises". But it seems the French approach is reversed, and they take it as a foregone conclusion to impose regulation up front. I'm sure someone more in favor of the French approach could describe it in more favorable terms, but to my American sensibilities it seems almost totalitarian.
- Angostura 10y agoYou could argue that the French position: that the service could upset the French capital’s “commercial equilibrium”" shows a common-sense appreciation of the advantages of living in a neighbourhood where the is a good mixture of local shops and an attempt to preserve the benefits of this system. I'm sure that living in such neighbourhoods has all kinds of quality-of-life benefits in terms of communal life, neighbourhood cohesion and mental wellbeing that a strictly profit-driven approach doesn't recognise.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y agoVery much agreed. Americans have a nasty habit of valuing everything in dollar terms, especially when such things cannot be valued in such a way. What is the dollar value of clean air, friendly neighbors, and social cohesion? Sure you could factor things like physical health, but that never paints a full picture.
- insertnickname 10y agoClean air? Are you kidding me? Seems like Paris was already polluting its air before Amazon's express delivery. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/24/paris-car-free-day-pollution/72736778/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/24/paris-ca...
- insertnickname 10y agoClean air? Are you kidding me? Seems like Paris was already polluting its air before Amazon's express delivery. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/24/paris-car-free-day-pollution/72736778/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/24/paris-ca...
- djschnei 10y agoI think the obvious objection to this kind of central planning is that the community isn't deciding that for themselves. If members of a community experience the kind of benefits from local business that you say (and I agree, I shop overwhelmingly local) why is it that they can't vote for those businesses with their own dollars? I see these kind of regressive economic policy as an obvious (and probably unintentional) attack on the poorest members of the community. Sure, I can afford to pay a little more and shop locally. It's a luxury to pay more for something because you enjoy the shopping experience more. Some people can't afford that luxury, and should be able to decide for themselves. Some people need to shop paying very close attention to the dollar value.
- pauletienney 10y agoDiscount supermarkets are less expensive than Amazon.
- djschnei 10y agoThen what's the concern? People who want to pay for the convenience of amazon will pay for it, people who value the dollar more, will shop locally in this case. Outlawing advances in convenience seems regressive, no?
- pauletienney 10y agoThe point is about the small shops network in Paris. They are a vital part of the city culture, the social cohesion, the charm of Paris. The city recognize the convenience of Amazon, they are not banned. They city also recognize its commercial aggressiveness and want to protect small shops from it. Not because small shops are cute but because they are an important part of the culture and economy of the city.
- djschnei 10y agoThen I will point back to my original comment which you commented on. Is the importance of these shops something only the ruling class recognizes? If not, why does the protection of them need to be mandated?
- adventured 10y ago> What is the dollar value of clean air Paris happens to possess among the most polluted air of any major first world city. So based on your premise, the French value their diesel pollution over their clean air - they found a (very low) price to put on it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-20/breathless-in-paris-as-clean-air-battle-mounts-in-french-capital http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-20/breathless... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-19/paris-smog-obscuring-eiffel-tower-threatens-diesel-car-dominance http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-19/paris-smog...
- fennecfoxen 10y agoIn Europe they used to have kings and nobles in charge of entire swaths of the nation's production. As a minor counterbalance they'd have alternative power centers in the form of a city's guilds who would own the rights to do certain types of business in the city. The French Revolution may have swept away the nobles, but the general structure of an economy run by the other various entrenched interests remains, and feel that they have a right to the work and customers, treating said customers like property. To this add strong nationalism and the fact that Amazon is un-French (and the French have few problems strongarming their citizens to be more French: see the French-language TV/radio content quotas). The US has seen a few of the attitudes (see: any food truck dispute) but never really had the same types of power structures ... with the exception of the Depression-era National Recovery Administration (quickly deemed unconstitutional by 9 out of 9 Supreme Court justices).
- SixSigma 10y agoLet's not forget there is probably some (plenty?) of anti-American feeling after France declined to join BUsh's coalition "About 40 percent of Americans tell pollsters they favor boycotting French products" Including the wonderful Freedom Fries by misunderstanding of what the french meant in french fries. http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-boycotting-wine-wont-work http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-boycotting-w...
- mknocker 10y agoAmerican approach is more 'trial and error' while French education system is more oriented toward demonstrating that something is good or not. Hence, when they see something new coming up they want to make sure that this won't interfere the current state of things. Both approaches are good, just different.
- CaptainZapp 10y agoHere's an example from a different field. Regulation of checmicals. In Europe the regulatory framework is called REACH (Registration, Evaluation and Authorization of Chemicals), while the US uses a regulatory framework called TSCA (Toxic Substances Control Act). There is a major difference: (from http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-07-825 http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-07-825) : REACH requires companies to develop information on chemicals' effects on human health and the environment, while TSCA does not require companies to develop such information absent EPA rule-making requiring them to do so. While TSCA does not require companies to develop information on chemicals before they enter commerce (new chemicals), companies are required to provide EPA any information that may already exist on a chemical's impact on human health or the environment. Companies do not have to develop information on the health or environmental impacts of chemicals already in commerce (existing chemicals) unless EPA formally promulgates a rule requiring them to do so. So, simplified: In Eurpe a company must provide proof that a chemical compound is not harmful, while in the US a compound is considered legal as long its harm can't be proven. While the US approach is certainly better for commerce I very much prefer the European approach. I consider the general health of the population much more important than the money that can be made by private companies. And I think the example pretty nicely demonstrates the difference in attitude between the continents.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago> I consider the general health of the population much more important than the money that can be made by private companies. There's a feedback loop in the cost of innovation. Better medicines, fertilisers, preservatives, insulators, et cetera have increased both the health of the populace and wealth of their creators. Ceteris paribus, in a world with more innovative potential than downside, the less cautious society will outcompete the more cautious one.
- Dwolb 10y ago> Ceteris paribus, in a world with more innovative potential than downside, the less cautious society will outcompete the more cautious one. Sure but we don't know how bad the negative externalities of accumulation of human-made chemicals in our natural environment are until we get there. We could be outcompeting in the short term with very large negative societal effects in the long term.
- Tepix 10y agoFrance is in trouble. They badly need reforms to be able to compete but they are unwilling to let go of their hard earned amenities. Related link: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/french-workers-are-protesting-against-reforms-even-a-socialist-says-are-necessary-2016-06-10 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/french-workers-are-protesti...
- adventured 10y agoThey're definitely in deep economic trouble. The French economy hasn't expanded in real terms in about two decades, not since 1995 or so. That can only go on for so long until the mounting problems begin to drown you. And then there's this: "France’s unemployment rate rose 1.1 percent in the month of February, pushing jobless numbers to a record 3.591 million people, the Labour Ministry said Thursday." http://www.france24.com/en/20160324-french-unemployment-hits-new-record http://www.france24.com/en/20160324-french-unemployment-hits...
- tomglynch 10y agoHow did Paris handle Uber?
- lostcolony 10y agoFrom the article - 'The activities of another multinational offering quick and convenient services – the car hire app Uber – has also raised the hackles of authorities in Paris in recent months. The company has faced fines, legal challenges and its drivers physical violence since it began operating in the city in 2012.'
- pyrale 10y agoUber's legal activities are still running. They're having a fair success from what I know. Uber's illegal activities have been challenged in court and closed. The reason for the particular way it happened is mostly that the company tried to bully its way through regulation by ignoring it like it did in some US cities. The police then decided to search of french Uber executives' homes, and they came to their minds quite fast afterwards.
- mnx 10y agoThis sounds to me like they are saying "Their business model is more efficient, and therefore it will be hard to compete with it, so let's ban it instead".
- pauletienney 10y agoIt is a part of the reflexion but not the whole. Everything is not about business.
- mnx 10y agoSure. But this really comes off to me as a self-interested move by the people who have the time, and money to shop in expensive local shops, and want their existence to be subsidised by those who would prefer to save time & money by choosing Amazon, but will be forced not to. I can get restrictions to business sometimes, this just does not seem at all justified.
- pauletienney 10y agoThe local discount supermarket is less expensive than Amazon.
- mnx 10y agoAfter taking time, effort and - importantly - differing product quality into account?
- elthran 10y agoYeah, seems to be the general French modus operandi
- toyg 10y agoWell, it's a respectable point of view. Efficiency is not the be-all-end-all of life, or we'd have gas chambers instead of hospices.
- pauletienney 10y agoAs a Parisien, I can give you my humble opinion. I totally like Amazon move, I am sure it can be convenient and save me ton of time BUT I will never trade this time for the liveliness of my neighborhood. I love having a walk from my flat, go to the butcher and my vegetable seller. I like it because I can see the products, because it creates a sense of community in the neighborhood, because I know the butcher and he knows me. Performance, convenience and business is a part of my life but it will never be my whole life. Btw, I would be very interested by different cultural point of view on this whole story.
- insertnickname 10y agoIf that's what you prefer, that's perfectly fine. If other people prefer to shop with Amazon, that's also perfectly fine. Let the market decide rather than government bureaucrats.
- pauletienney 10y agoI totally agree it is fine to prefer either solution. However I disagree with your proposition about "market" vs "bureaucrats". I think (imho) business logic and free market are not efficient enough to guarantee quality of life.
- 6502nerdface 10y agoSo, even though you "agree it is fine to prefer either solution," you are willing to use literal, blunt force against your own neighbors to prevent them from using the solution that they prefer? That's neither self-consistent nor very neighborly.
- pauletienney 10y agoIt is absolutely fine to let Amazon come in Paris, I would strongly be against a ban. The issue is their economic power might erase a bit of the charm of Paris and lower my quality of life. That's why the political power counterbalances this.
- adrianN 10y ago> Paris city hall has also said it will look out for unwanted side-effects of the operation, including increased traffic and pollution. Maybe the service reduces traffic and pollution? If people stay at home and order groceries instead of taking their cars to the supermarket you probably reduce traffic. One delivery truck on an optimized route should drive fewer km than individual cars.
- pauletienney 10y agoJust to let you know, nobody drive a car in Paris to go do groceries. Everything is done walking around our flat or on our way.
- santialbo 10y agoIt is quite rare in big european cities that people take their cars (if they have any) to the supermarket.
- adrianN 10y agoI live in Berlin and I know several people who go to the supermarket by car. Most supermarkets also have nonempty parking lots which indicates that at least some people use their car for shopping.
- yardie 10y agoThen they will have contributed very little. Literally, every major grocer in the city does delivery now. They also don't come from out in the suburbs. The neighbourhood store has their own fleet and can get it to you the same day within a few hours of placing the order.
- adrianN 10y agoIf the competition already provides delivery, why ban Amazon from doing it as well?
- pauletienney 10y ago
- nolepointer 10y agoI'm not really familiar with the service, but from where does Amazon get the groceries they deliver? Could they not enter into an agreement with Parisian stores to deliver their products?
- yawaramin 10y agoThe central Parisians seem quite content to suppress economic activity and job creation while the suburbs churn with joblessness, poverty and discontent.
- kafkaesq 10y agoAll I can say is -- if Amazon wants to plaster their slogans everywhere imaginable (above doorways at their facility; and literally on the backs of their workers - going by the photo midway down the article), they can at least have the decency to do so in the native language.
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