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People have been underwater kicking since the 80s. They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Is this an old story? Also, interest

People have been underwater kicking since the 80s. They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Is this an old story? Also, interesting to note that in the olympic / NCAA 50 yard and 50 meter freestyle, a drag race, usually people are not kicking to 15m. So perhaps underwater is only faster with effeciency in mind. With a short race like the 50 free it's possibly still not the fastest. It's similar to how fly is as fast as free swimming at short distances. It's the inefficiency that makes fly end up slower over a 50/100 vs freestyle.

Teever 10y ago
> They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Why do they do this? I thought the point of the sport was to see who would get across the pool under their own power and without a tool. It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this.
- dagw 10y ago
  It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this. All sports include arbitrary rules to try to make them more fun for both participants and viewers. Basketball isn't just about seeing who can get a ball through the hoop the most times, car racing isn't just about who can be the first N times around a track etc.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Bromskloss 10y ago
    So, we have established that sports have rules, but why should freestyle swimming prohibit this style of swimming?
    - dagw 10y ago
      why should freestyle swimming prohibit this style of swimming? The official reason? Safety concerns (from oxygen deprivation) and the fact that people swimming underwater makes for a less spectator friendly sport. There might be some other unofficial reasons, but not sure what they might be. My guess is that the spectator angle is the main reason.
      - sanoli 10y ago
        I don't get people who don't get this ;-) Imagine if it got to the point where the whole 50m fresstyle race was won by reamining underwater full time. Gone would be the frantic flapping of arms and legs making waves and splashes, which is how non-swimmers understand how fast paced the event is, like the running 100m sprint. People gliding like dolphins viewed in underwater cameras is just not as exciting.
  - Teever 10y ago
    So would this sport be better if we tied lead weights to the athletes ankles?
    - Hondor 10y ago
      Works in horse racing.
  - JulianMorrison 10y ago
    Basketball is a game, it's like chess, the move "knock the board off the table and punch the opponent" is not part of the definition of the game, and that's fine, games have definitions. But honestly, it annoys me when things like swimming and car racing bind themselves up with rules that amount to "no, do it the conventional way, not the better way". It should be legit to win by innovation.
    - Hondor 10y ago
      I tend to feel the same way but there are often safety reasons. You can't have a popular sport where the winners are the ones who push themselves closest to death. g-forces causing harm to drivers: https://what-if.xkcd.com/116/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/116/ Smaller events also have to allow the competitors to focus on a smaller range of capabilities so they can actually find competent players. Robot and drone competitions come to mind where the equipment is often standardized so they're only testing skills or programming, not being-the-best-at-everything which would end up as "throwing the most money at it".
    - dagw 10y ago
      At the end of the day sport doesn't exist in a vacuum and the end goal of swimming or car racing as a sport isn't (just) to go as fast as possible, it's to put on an entertaining show that people will want to watch. Much like with any good business, the goal isn't to make the 'best' product at any cost, it's to make the most profitable product that will make your customers happy.
    - imtringued 10y ago
      Ground effect was banned because it resulted in too many crashes in F1 racing. www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/07/banned-ground-effects/
- pfortuny 10y ago
  It is not so much fun if you cannot see the swimmers...
- ralfd 10y ago
  http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444320704577565573909409892 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904443207045775655... > After the 1956 Olympics, in which Japan's Masaru Furukawa swam almost all of the breaststroke underwater, FINA limited how long a breaststroker could swim underwater. One concern (beyond the obvious downside for spectators) was safety: As others adopted Furukawa's technique, they became worried about swimmers passing out from oxygen deprivation. > In the 1988 Seoul Olympics, Berkoff of the U.S. and another Olympian, Japan's Daichi Suzuki, used extended underwater dolphin kicks to dominate the backstroke. That prompted FINA to enact a rule that competitors could only swim underwater for 10 meters. A year later, the allowed distance was increased to 15 meters.
  - severine 10y ago
    Safety was a concern also in the curious case of javelin thrower Miguel de la Quadra-Salcedo: "In the mid 50s Miguel and the pitcher of the Basque Bar, Félix Erausquin invented how to adapt that instrument to throw the javelin. In the manner of the disk or hammer, pitcher turns on itself before throwing. After much training, Miguel de la Quadra-Salcedo presented the "Spanish style" of throwing the javelin. The effectiveness was that high that in 1956 added 20 meters to the world record, which at the time was around 80. However, the record was never approved by the IAAF (International Association of Athletics Federations). It thought that launch was too dangerous for the public because during the rotation the javelin tip was focused to them." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Quadra-Salcedo#Early_beginnings_as_a_successful_athlete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Quadra-Salcedo#Ea... edit: a couple more links, including a video [2], [3] [2] http://rethinkingathletics.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-javelin-controversy.html http://rethinkingathletics.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-javelin-... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6dCL2vOkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6dCL2vOkk
- frobozz 10y ago
  In freestyle races, maybe. In races for specific strokes, there must be rules defining how you get across, otherwise there's no distinction between them. You could liken it to the difference between running and walking races. Without the rules, a walking racer could discover an amazing new technique that greatly increases their speed - i.e. running. Or long jump vs. triple jump. Both are 'how far can you get across the sand without disturbing it'. you could get amazing triple jump distances if you could just keep running to the edge of the pit, then jump. Even so, you could describe the point as who could get across the surface of the pool under their own power, and that there is a permitted amount of underwater time or distance due to the nature of turns and dives. Much like in a walking race, you can 'run' a limited number of steps, otherwise half the field would likely be disqualified in most races. Butterfly was originally a breaststroke variant, as it complied with the then rules for that stroke. The rules for breaststroke were changed and a new event came about. Conversely, English Backstroke has simply vanished in favour of back crawl.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  >> It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this. Without rules, we'd swimming would be people canoes racing back and forth. But this particular rule is health-related. Breath-holding is not a healthy thing to do day after day, especially with groups of young kids. They aren't going to drown but their brains aren't going to thank them. (Unrestrained drowning is actually very hard thing for a healthy person to do in a pool. Most competitive swimmers have experienced the adrenaline and panic of inhaling a large amount of water. It happened to me during a scuba lesson. During a mid-water CPR exercise I inhaled a lung full of water. They called me aquaman after seeing me leap, with tank, onto the deck like Kevin Costner in waterworld.)
dagw 10y ago
Is this an old story? It's a retrospective of how competitive swimming has evolved from the from the breaststroke in the 19th-century to this particular stroke in 1995.
lukas099 10y ago
> People have been underwater kicking since the 80s. They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Is this an old story? The article is not really about underwater swimming but specifically about the 'fish stroke', which is like the underwater kicking of yesteryear but turned on its side like a fish.

Teever 10y ago

> They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Why do they do this? I thought the point of the sport was to see who would get across the pool under their own power and without a tool. It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this.

dagw 10y ago
It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this. All sports include arbitrary rules to try to make them more fun for both participants and viewers. Basketball isn't just about seeing who can get a ball through the hoop the most times, car racing isn't just about who can be the first N times around a track etc.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Bromskloss 10y ago
  So, we have established that sports have rules, but why should freestyle swimming prohibit this style of swimming?
  - dagw 10y ago
    why should freestyle swimming prohibit this style of swimming? The official reason? Safety concerns (from oxygen deprivation) and the fact that people swimming underwater makes for a less spectator friendly sport. There might be some other unofficial reasons, but not sure what they might be. My guess is that the spectator angle is the main reason.
    - sanoli 10y ago
      I don't get people who don't get this ;-) Imagine if it got to the point where the whole 50m fresstyle race was won by reamining underwater full time. Gone would be the frantic flapping of arms and legs making waves and splashes, which is how non-swimmers understand how fast paced the event is, like the running 100m sprint. People gliding like dolphins viewed in underwater cameras is just not as exciting.
- Teever 10y ago
  So would this sport be better if we tied lead weights to the athletes ankles?
  - Hondor 10y ago
    Works in horse racing.
- JulianMorrison 10y ago
  Basketball is a game, it's like chess, the move "knock the board off the table and punch the opponent" is not part of the definition of the game, and that's fine, games have definitions. But honestly, it annoys me when things like swimming and car racing bind themselves up with rules that amount to "no, do it the conventional way, not the better way". It should be legit to win by innovation.
  - Hondor 10y ago
    I tend to feel the same way but there are often safety reasons. You can't have a popular sport where the winners are the ones who push themselves closest to death. g-forces causing harm to drivers: https://what-if.xkcd.com/116/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/116/ Smaller events also have to allow the competitors to focus on a smaller range of capabilities so they can actually find competent players. Robot and drone competitions come to mind where the equipment is often standardized so they're only testing skills or programming, not being-the-best-at-everything which would end up as "throwing the most money at it".
  - dagw 10y ago
    At the end of the day sport doesn't exist in a vacuum and the end goal of swimming or car racing as a sport isn't (just) to go as fast as possible, it's to put on an entertaining show that people will want to watch. Much like with any good business, the goal isn't to make the 'best' product at any cost, it's to make the most profitable product that will make your customers happy.
  - imtringued 10y ago
    Ground effect was banned because it resulted in too many crashes in F1 racing. www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/07/banned-ground-effects/
pfortuny 10y ago
It is not so much fun if you cannot see the swimmers...
ralfd 10y ago
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444320704577565573909409892 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904443207045775655... > After the 1956 Olympics, in which Japan's Masaru Furukawa swam almost all of the breaststroke underwater, FINA limited how long a breaststroker could swim underwater. One concern (beyond the obvious downside for spectators) was safety: As others adopted Furukawa's technique, they became worried about swimmers passing out from oxygen deprivation. > In the 1988 Seoul Olympics, Berkoff of the U.S. and another Olympian, Japan's Daichi Suzuki, used extended underwater dolphin kicks to dominate the backstroke. That prompted FINA to enact a rule that competitors could only swim underwater for 10 meters. A year later, the allowed distance was increased to 15 meters.
- severine 10y ago
  Safety was a concern also in the curious case of javelin thrower Miguel de la Quadra-Salcedo: "In the mid 50s Miguel and the pitcher of the Basque Bar, Félix Erausquin invented how to adapt that instrument to throw the javelin. In the manner of the disk or hammer, pitcher turns on itself before throwing. After much training, Miguel de la Quadra-Salcedo presented the "Spanish style" of throwing the javelin. The effectiveness was that high that in 1956 added 20 meters to the world record, which at the time was around 80. However, the record was never approved by the IAAF (International Association of Athletics Federations). It thought that launch was too dangerous for the public because during the rotation the javelin tip was focused to them." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Quadra-Salcedo#Early_beginnings_as_a_successful_athlete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_la_Quadra-Salcedo#Ea... edit: a couple more links, including a video [2], [3] [2] http://rethinkingathletics.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-javelin-controversy.html http://rethinkingathletics.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-javelin-... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6dCL2vOkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6dCL2vOkk
frobozz 10y ago
In freestyle races, maybe. In races for specific strokes, there must be rules defining how you get across, otherwise there's no distinction between them. You could liken it to the difference between running and walking races. Without the rules, a walking racer could discover an amazing new technique that greatly increases their speed - i.e. running. Or long jump vs. triple jump. Both are 'how far can you get across the sand without disturbing it'. you could get amazing triple jump distances if you could just keep running to the edge of the pit, then jump. Even so, you could describe the point as who could get across the surface of the pool under their own power, and that there is a permitted amount of underwater time or distance due to the nature of turns and dives. Much like in a walking race, you can 'run' a limited number of steps, otherwise half the field would likely be disqualified in most races. Butterfly was originally a breaststroke variant, as it complied with the then rules for that stroke. The rules for breaststroke were changed and a new event came about. Conversely, English Backstroke has simply vanished in favour of back crawl.
sandworm101 10y ago
>> It seems to defeat the purpose of the competition when they include arbitrary rules like this. Without rules, we'd swimming would be people canoes racing back and forth. But this particular rule is health-related. Breath-holding is not a healthy thing to do day after day, especially with groups of young kids. They aren't going to drown but their brains aren't going to thank them. (Unrestrained drowning is actually very hard thing for a healthy person to do in a pool. Most competitive swimmers have experienced the adrenaline and panic of inhaling a large amount of water. It happened to me during a scuba lesson. During a mid-water CPR exercise I inhaled a lung full of water. They called me aquaman after seeing me leap, with tank, onto the deck like Kevin Costner in waterworld.)

dagw 10y ago

Is this an old story? It's a retrospective of how competitive swimming has evolved from the from the breaststroke in the 19th-century to this particular stroke in 1995.

lukas099 10y ago

> People have been underwater kicking since the 80s. They changed the rules to limit the distance one could kick underwater. Is this an old story? The article is not really about underwater swimming but specifically about the 'fish stroke', which is like the underwater kicking of yesteryear but turned on its side like a fish.