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Venezuelans Ransack Stores as Hunger Grips the Nation
- seibelj 10y agoYou mean socialism didn't turn out to be a grand utopia where no one is poor and the government efficiently distributes resources? I'm totally shocked! Maybe they should nationalize a few more industries and throw more capitalists in prison
- xenadu02 10y agoGraft, corruption, and mismanagement will ruin any system: capitalism, socialism, or communism (assuming we can even agree on the definitions of those systems).
- albertop 10y agoGraft, corruption, and mismanagement == Socialism
- PhasmaFelis 10y agoYou think those things didn't exist before 1848 or so?
- seibelj 10y agoSocialism requires that the government has more resources and thus more power. Therefore socialist governments are more likely to become corrupted and mismanaged.
- jbhatab 10y agocompletely agree with this. Obviously nothing is certain but it's a strong factor and time brings this out.
- pm90 10y agoHow is this any different from capitalist oligarchies? In that case, the power and resources are not aggregated in a single government, but split over many private individuals.
- cageface 10y agoIt's a matter of degrees. At least in most capitalist countries the press, no matter how emasculated, still functions as a check on corruption to some degree. Communist/socialist countries tend to control the press, and hush up exposés of corruption, which makes it much worse.
- SixSigma 10y agoThe Obama administration has secured 526 months of prison time for national security leakers, versus only 24 months total jail time for everyone else since the American Revolution. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/obama-has-sentenced-whistleblowers-to-31-times-the-jail-time-of-all-prior-u-s-presidents-combined.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/obama-has-sentenced-w...
- cageface 10y agoSure the press in the US is currently in a pretty bad state. But after living in a communist country for the last five years I can tell you for a fact it can get much worse.
- lhopki01 10y agoCapitalism has nothing to do with freedom of the press.
- cageface 10y agoWhy then is there no capitalist country that oppresses journalists to anything like the degree that all communist countries do?
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- aetherson 10y agoThe more one centralizes power, the more opportunity there is for graft, corruption, and mismanagement to do a lot of harm. Let's avoid a stupid "definition of terms" fight and just talk about why the USSR was such a complete disaster for a few minutes, whatever you want to call their system. That system was one that centralized a lot of power. What jobs people did, what prices things sold at, where people could love, how much of what they would try to make or grow, and also who could say what, what ideologies were allowed, what kind of media people could see, what foreign ideas were allowed in. It turns out that that's a pretty rich field for graft. All the graft opportunities that were available in other countries, plus a big slice of economic control, plus a big slice of ideology control made for some powerful government officials, and they could use corruption to turn that power into personal gain.
- sien 10y agoWhere are the successful socialist and Communist societies?
- zokula 10y agoSweden, Norway and Finland are more Socialist than the USSR, Cuba, China have ever been. So yes there are some successful socialist countries.
- sien 10y agoAll have extensive private ownership. Look at government spending. Sweden 51.2% of GDP, Norway 43.9. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending How are they 'more Socialist' than the USSR or Cuba or China when it was poor where the state owned everything? Sure, they are 'Social Democracies' which seems to mean market-democracies with a welfare state these days.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- PhasmaFelis 10y agoAs I said elsewhere, Scandinavia seems to be doing all right, so that's Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden for starters. (This is of course social democracy rather than "pure" socialism. But since most social democratic policies, e.g. health care and social safety nets, are called "socialism" by those who wish to demonize them, I think it's fair to put social democracy's triumphs under the same label.)
- retrogradeorbit 10y ago“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” -- Margaret Thatcher
- pm90 10y agoDespite her being given recognition for reforming the British Economy, it is arguably still up for debate whether her policies were ultimately successful. The Scandinavian countries have continued to preserve many govt. controlled industries without being bankrupt.
- nickik 10y agoThe government of the Scandinavian countries is not so much bigger then that of other western nations. In scandinavia they are not keeping companies alive that are literally consuming money, such a the British coal mines. Before she took over Britain had very litte growth and was called the sick man of europe. Inflations was getting out of control and would have ruined Britain. Certantly not everything she did was good, but Britain despretly need some of those changes. If you look at indexes of economic freedom the scandinavian countries are actually quite high. Their are many extremly capitalist aspects of their society as well.
- el3ctron 10y agoyou need to read something deeply before give an oppinion about socialism, in Colombia 4000 children dies starving in the last 4 years and CNN and FOX dont say anything couse Colombia is a right wing country, and offcourse, this must be pass in silent.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tiktiktok 10y agosocialism != big government, what you are referring to is authoritarianism see libertarian socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
- mc32 10y agoWhat an utter and complete disaster. More socialist government control is not the answer to this unmitigated managerial disaster. They need to recognize that they will have to let go of command and control of the economy and private property and let the people who know how to run businesses run their businesses. Further nationalization and confiscation will not improve things. It's a country with enviable natural resources. It's not like they don't have arable land or suffer from prolonged droughts and they did not suffer a civil war recently but they do suffer from government hubris and an economic death spiral. Complete national economic mismanagement. One can only hope the country does not fundamentally collapse and people try to escape at any cost. It's not like Brazil is economically up to absorbing the exodus. Of course, this will be blamed on the imperialist gringos and the failure of their "socialist" policies will not be recognized.
- steveax 10y agoA three year drought actually: >There has been little rain in Venezuela in the past three years, and a crippling deficit last year in particular—a predictable effect of El Niño, the global climate cycle that periodically warms parts of the Pacific Ocean, causing deluges in Texas and Florida, warm weather in eastern Canada, and desiccation in Indonesia and parts of Latin America. As a result, the water behind Venezuela’s dams, which supply around two-thirds of the country’s electricity, is at a historic low. At the Guri Dam, the nation’s largest hydropower facility, the water is reportedly within five metres of dead pool. At this low level, the worry is that air will get into the dam’s inner workings along with the water, producing vibrations in the metal turbine blades that can rattle the structure to death. If Venezuela’s reservoirs run dry and its dams stop working, its grid will, too. http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-electricity-crisis-in-venezuela-a-cautionary-tale http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-electricity-crisi...
- bpodgursky 10y agoWhile the drought is not helping, there's no reason the country with the largest oil reserves in the world should have to shut down their economy in a drought; other counties have backup oil plants. Mismanagement is why oil production drops every year and there is no refining capacity.
- mudil 10y agoVenezuela is berning.
- jbmorgado 10y agoSweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland are all Berning and doing great.
- DefaultUserHN 10y agoYep, those countries are doing great, but only because the United States exists. If the United States doesn't exist, China and Russia would have taken over those countries. Their sacrifice-military-defense-for-socialist-programs strategy would have failed spectacularly. In other word, the United States is basically defending them (and many other countries in Europe). Because the United States defended them, they don't have to spend much on their military, so they have extra money left to spend on their socialist programs. So again, "Socialism only works until you run out of someone else's money."
- iofj 10y agoThis actually started over 2 months ago, and has been pretty common since: (Apr 26) http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-crisis-20160427-story.html http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela... (May 11) https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/05/11/venezuela-looting-wounded-5000-supermarket/ https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/05/11/venezuela-lo... Now it is about essentially anything. Specific product shortages started long, long ago: (Nov 2015) http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-venezuela-is-running-out-of-toilet-paper-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-venezuela-is-running-o... And for electronics it has been years. The cause is widely reported to be price regulation.
- WalterBright 10y agoThe result of price regulation is invariably shortages and gluts.
- johnnyg 10y agoThis upsets me because it is such an unnecessary and predictable result. The mentality and fiscal politics of a nation matter. “The Chinese won’t sell to us,” said a taxi driver who watched the crowd haul away all that was inside. “So we burn their stores instead.” You'll eat tonight, but at the cost of the rest of the output of that store - if you even got the food out before you burned it. While I suppose the time to be philosophical is before the starving crowd gathers in front of the grain store, this is still madness. Further, the mentality and fiscal politics and a connected world matter. In the US and all developed nations, our quantitative easing programs are an abstracted, less violent but fiscally equivalent analog to burning a store or selling the future for the present. The consequences of these choices will also come to our door in time. If they gave me the stick, I'd set interest rates at 3% and hold the line through a recession or depression. Far better that then coming to the end of the line, having no options and no way out.
- wrong_variable 10y agoIn the US and all developed nations, our quantitative easing programs are an abstracted, less violent but fiscally equivalent analog to burning a store or selling the future for the present. The consequences of these choices will also come to our door in time. How come ?
- nickles 10y ago>If they gave me the stick, I'd set interest rates at 3% and hold the line through a recession or depression. Far better that then coming to the end of the line, having no options and no way out. It's a good thing you don't have the stick. I'd liken such a policy to the Taylor Rule, which can produce ridiculous results, but even that relies on macroeconomic data at all times. If your policy is such that 3% is the new lower bound, you have just created the lower bound you seek to avoid. At present, there is no lower bound. Many countries are employing negative interest rates to attempt to stimulate their respective economies. A notable exception is Switzerland, which maintains negative rates primarily to devalue its currency (of course the magnitude of the exception is debatable). While negative interest rates are not well understood, they are utilized. Central banks have additional tools at their disposal as well, like ON RRP, which means that talking about a single 3% rate is poorly specified. Ultimately though, we are encountering the limits of monetary policy and governments should be considering a fiscal approach, especially with such low interest rates. At a fixed 3%, fiscal policy is less appealing even when absolutely necessary.
- discardorama 10y agoDoes the US have some sort of sanctions against Venezuela? I'm not sure if we do or not, but I'm wondering if we do.
- DugFin 10y agoThere are sanctions in place against individual Venezuelan officials for their part in human rights abuses, and a general embargo on arms, but other than that, no. The US is still Venezuela's largest trade partner.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tuna-piano 10y agoSuch a sad situation there. While traveling around latin America, especially Panama and Mexico, I met many Venezuelans who had left to find new lives. The stories they told of their families back in Venezuela were heartbreaking. It seems many of those with means to leave have already left. This also helps create a brain drain which further increases the problems there. All of us in the developed world need to study and educate others on what the policies in Venezuela have done (no, it wasn't the weather, the evil corporations, oil prices or whatever other excuse of the week they claim). We need to ensure other countries do not go down this route. Especially concerning to me is the popular support of Chavez/Maduro and these policies: Jeremy Corbyn, Britain's Labour party leader tweeted: "Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world"(1) In Spain, a political party gaining major support helped create the disastorous policies in Venezuela (2) Please, those of you who support these types of policies - educate yourself on their effects. And take a look at the reverse, how well the average Chinese person has done as their economy has gone from control to free enterprise (3). People vote with their feet. How many Panamanians and Mexicans are emigrating to Venezuela? How many people moved away from the special economic zones in China? How many of the desperate poor in Florida take rafts to go to the communist paradise of Cuba? (1): https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?lang=en https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?l... (2): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/europe/venezuela-casts-a-long-shadow-on-elections-in-spain.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/europe/venezuela-cas... (3): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China
- droopyEyelids 10y agoYour post comes off as a ridiculous attempt to shape opinions. Just knowing the CIA has spent decades trying to destablize the Venezualian government instantly makes me suspend my judegements of who can be blamed for their current situation. Yeah, it's possible that chavez's attempts at socialist policy created this. But having the intelligence agency of the most powerful nation in the world spend decades trying to fuck up your government might possibly have an impact, too.
- intrasight 10y agoA simple label like "socialism" is inadequate to explain what is going on in Venezuela or in any other country. Is much better to drill into the details of "poor leadership" and "failed government institutions". All states have these issues to various degrees. In Venezuela they are problems broad and deep.
- Kalium 10y agoA command economy, a denial of economic fundamentals, and years of completely failing to take advantage of a commodity boom while it lasted. And populist ideology that led to those.
- z92 10y agoPrice control kills the market. As happened in Venezuela. Not draught or low oil price. But the article hasn't covered this point enough. At high inflation rate and frozen price of commodities and food, traders are forced to sell bellow cost. Which leads to business closure, leading to shortage.
- dimitar 10y agoAnd yet Venezuela keeps buying weapons from Russia: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/venezuela-buying-su30s-helicopters-et-al-from-russia-02472/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/venezuela-buying-su30s-h...
- dmh2000 10y agoThis was predicted in Atlas Shrugged, it just turned out to be Venezuela instead of the US. well, minus the sci-fi part.