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Tesla Model S Suspension Failures Under Scrutiny by Safety Agency
- hackuser 10y agoI found this part very interesting: In the case of the Model S’s suspension, Tesla took care of repairs for some customers who complained to the company, on the condition that they agreed in writing not to talk about the issue or how Tesla dealt with it. The agreements, however, stirred up discussion on online bulletin boards. Dailykanban.com, an auto industry blog, posted excerpts from what it said was an agreement. It said, in part: “You agree to keep confidential our provision of the Goodwill, the terms of this agreement and the incidents or claims leading or related to our provision of the Goodwill.” “Goodwill” is the term Tesla used to refer to any repairs or compensation it made because of a suspension failure. The agreement posted on the blog released Tesla from any liability and barred the car owners from filing legal proceedings against the company. --- More and more I get the sense that Musk is in firm control of everything I read about his companies.
- Shivetya 10y agoWhat they have done is pure crap. Considering how long Tesla has been in the business this type of activity should never have occurred. It will now certainly get the NHTSA digging into more than just the suspension issue.
- sigmar 10y ago>More and more I get the sense that Musk is in firm control of everything I read about his companies. Everything? Isn't the text you quoted proof that you've read something that isn't controlled by Musk?
- hackuser 10y agoI'd say that was the cleverest comment I've ever read, but I'm afraid the hyperbole, satire, and sarcasm might be overlooked. I do admit that I usually think hyperbole is far too much overused here and on the Internet in general. My apologies to HN for this grievous oversight.
- untilHellbanned 10y agoThough they have actually shipped a product, this Jobsian-no divulging obsession sounds like that other, recently imploded T-named startup...Th..th..eranos. Worked for Apple because iPhone can't kill anyone. Not gonna fly, er drive, for Tesla. Tightly regulated market, good luck with maintaining that secrecy-based business plan.
- saulrh 10y agoHe kind of had to be if electric vehicles were going to have a chance. Look at the "batteries are fire hazards" shitstorm - because his company is new and interesting, the press is going to be much harder on it than they would be on any other manufacturer. Given how much I hear about Tesla, I suspect that his information control roughly balances out the muckraking into something like the truth.
- gordon_freeman 10y agoNHTSA did review all the fire incidents involving Tesla cars and found that the outside shell in the bottom was too thin and the debris broke it and damaged the batteries to cause fire. As far as I know that's a legitimate issue media has brought up and Tesla then took steps to make the shell stronger so that debris couldn't damage the batteries.
- LeifCarrotson 10y agoSure, if by "too thin" you mean it fails under impacts from objects like concrete blocks and receiver hitches that would puncture the passenger compartment, gas tank, or probably even the oil pan of a gasoline engine. The media loves to portray new things as dangerous. Perhaps it actually was too thin because these completely reasonable failures were able to happen, causing bad press that they ought to have guarded against with total overkill undercarriage shielding.
- userbinator 10y agoPhysically damaging batteries can directly cause a fire, whereas a punctured gas tank won't unless the leaking fuel finds a source of ignition. This is a failure mode unique to electric cars with batteries located there.
- mdorazio 10y agoWait, what? There were over 160,000 vehicle fires on highways in 2013 [1]. ICE vehicles catch on fire all the time, often even without a punctured gas tank, and definitely can catch on fire with a punctured gas tank. If you damage a vehicle's fuel source, whether it's lithium-ion or gasoline, you're going to have a bad time. [1] http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/vehicle-fires/highway-vehicle-fires http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-re...
- bigiain 10y agoFWIW, I've seen that sort of language about "goodwill repairs" for instances where a company agrees to fix things that are out of warranty - a friend signed something similar to that to get a replacement frame on a Ducati ST4 which was ~3 years out of warranty. They covered the cost of a new frame and several thousand dollars worth of labour to install, but asked for an NDA (rumours from the time suggest they didn't enforce the NDA requirement, and fixed people's bikes anyway if they refused to sign).
- honkhonkpants 10y agoYamaha does the exact thing with cracked frames. They present an NDA but if you refuse they replace it anyway, which of course is the right thing to do.
- lsaferite 10y agoFunny that you get quotes like "Ms. Krebs said she had never heard of a car company requiring customers to sign confidentiality agreements in exchange for repairs of potential safety defects" in the article and then here you immediately get two anecdotes of the same thing from two other automobile manufacturers. (Motorcycles are automobiles, right?)
- joezydeco 10y agoWouldn't an NDA also prevent an avalanche of owners making similar requests from the manufacturer? If you happen to convince the manufacturer to give you a free fix out-of-warranty and then you tell all the other owners, you could be asking for big headaches, and probably even more lawsuits, when the rest ask for the same treatment and are denied...
- ultramancool 10y agoI think the reliability of the current Model S could be a major problem - there's a good reason Consumer Reports took away their recommended rating on it even after their testers absolutely loved the car. Sure, they're fixing everything for free right now, but wait and see what happens with the Model 3, it'll be more mass market and we'll get a good sense of what they can really produce.
- hackuser 10y agoThey are in a tough spot with so much riding on every model. If GM makes a bad car, it's one of many current products and one dud in a century-long track record. If Tesla makes a flop ... they might be bought by GM (which, after all, was originally an agglomeration of smaller car companies). And unlike a small software company, they can't just fix the problem (at least, not a hardware problem) with an update. Then again, they may have more room for error than someone making spaceships.
- verytrivial 10y ago> “Goodwill” is the term Tesla used to refer to any repairs or compensation it made because of a suspension failure. That is a misleading and incomplete characterization. The repairs in this case were for suspension failure, yes, but it was termed "Goodwill" because the work was performed outside the warranty period (it we are to believe Elon^D^D^D^DThe Tesla Team).
- ams6110 10y agoWelcome to the real world of building cars. Some problems just don't appear until cars have been in the hands of owners and out in the wild for a while. And hopefully this should temper some of the enthusiasts claims that because they are electric, the cars are "maintenance free." We'll likely all be driving electric cars at some point. But Tesla and the other automakers will have to go through a lot of growing pains before we get there.
- mark-r 10y agoThe story isn't about the suspension failures. The story is about the nondisclosure.
- phkahler 10y ago>> The story isn't about the suspension failures. The story is about the nondisclosure. Tesla wouldn't need the nondisclosure agreements if the suspension failures were not story worthy.
- kbenson 10y agoAs other comments here have pointed out, that may be a faulty assumption. If nothing else, an NDA could be construed as an action to prevent an act of goodwill from being presented publicly as a tacit admission of fault. If so, it's fairly ironic that the NDA itself can be presented publicly as a tacit admission of guilt to good effect.
- pbreit 10y agoThey are not maintenance free but avoiding the continuous explosions combustible engines certainly leads to lower maintenance. It's not just wishful thinking.
- bronz 10y agoIt wont temper the claim that EVs are maintenance free because it has nothing to do with how much maintenance EVs require. The premise is that the best implementation of an EV will require much less maintenance than the best implementation of an ICE.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- brokenmachine 10y agoIt is very worrying that a car company would expect customers to sign an NDA to have their faulty cars fixed. That practice should certainly be illegal, in the interest of public safety.
- inopinatus 10y agoIANAL but I suspect it would be a violation of consumer laws in some jurisdictions where Tesla does business. E.g. Australia where limited/conditional warranty clauses are overridden by statutory consumer rights.
- honkhonkpants 10y agoStatutory rights are also superior to warranty disclaimers in every state of the USA, although such rights vary from state to state, and there are federal statutes as well.
- TylerE 10y agoAustralia's statutory rights extends for 12 months/20k kms. Most factory warranties are way longer than that.
- NeutronBoy 10y agoDo you have a citation for that? (genuinely curious - I tried to find a list of what an 'acceptable period' for lifetime would be but couldn't find one, for any goods). I know Apple products have a 12 month warranty, but are subject to at least a 24 month warranty/guarantee given the 'reasonableness' test. I'd find it hard to believe that a reasonableness test would find that a $500 iPhone is expected to function for 2 years, but a $150,000 luxury vehicle is only expected to function for 12 months.
- TylerE 10y agohttp://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-advice/new-used/used-cars/warranties.htm http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-a...
- abakker 10y agoDoes anyone have any idea what the mode of the failures were? It would be interesting to see whether it was a manufacturing vs a design problem.
- maratd 10y agohttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-on-model-s.69204/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-o...
- userbinator 10y agoWow. That ball joint is completely dry. It looks like it's never been greased, or any grease left the joint a long time ago.
- abakker 10y agoI really wish companies would build better ball joints in general. My Toyota Tundra had them go bad 3 times in 2 years before I went with aftermarket control arms with uniballs. I agree though, it looks like the boot that would hold grease on the ball joint failed, and then all the grease just bled away. Edit: I did not realize, but it appears from the thread that the upper arm is made from aluminum on the tesla? Can anyone confirm? It would very inappropriate to spec steel hardware in an aluminum socket like that for reasons of galvanic corrosion.
- zaroth 10y agoThe thread must have about 5 full pages of speculation about galvanic corrosion. After someone makes the convincing point that it would be the aluminum disintegrating, not the steel, they switch to speculation about corrosion due to stray current.
- abakker 10y agoRight, I was just wondering if someone could confirm that the upper A arm and ball socket were actually aluminum. It seems a very unlikely material choice for that part to me. I just don't have a tesla to go check on myself. Honestly, if the boot failed and the guy drove through saltwater, the steel of that part still shouldn't have rusted that badly. My armchair guess is that Tesla or their supplier didn't spec it wrong, but got a bad batch of metal in there that was improperly treated or alloyed.
- sharmajai 10y agoI thought initially that they did this so as to prevent their "goodwill" from getting misused by other customers. But then I realized their warranty should cover replacement and repair , regardless, for 4 years, 50000 miles [1]. What gives Tesla? 1.https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S...
- dsfyu404ed 10y agoYou think it's bad now.... wait until they're old enough to start rusting.
- feld 10y agoHuh? The entire car is aluminum. It can't rust.
- lsaferite 10y agoAluminum does corrode. Rust is specifically a term for iron oxidization. Aluminum corrosion forms a barrier that restricts additional corrosion. On a side note, aluminum and mercury/gallium are a 'fun' combination.
- mistercow 10y agoIt's not entirely aluminum. Some parts of the Model S are steel, and it appears the Model 3 will be mostly steel. You can clearly see rust in the pictures on this thread (posted elsewhere in the HN discussion): https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-on-model-s.69204/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/suspension-problem-o...
- feld 10y agoI'm talking about the frame and the body panels. Those aren't normally user serviceable parts. If there are other parts (suspension, etc) that are steel I would expect they need to be replaced for regular wear long before they completely rust through. If the Model 3 isn't an aluminum body and frame I no longer want one. I live where it snows and they salt a lot. I want some level of confidence the car won't be completely trashed in a few short years. That forum thread is certainly interesting....
- dsfyu404ed 10y agosacrificial coating > good paint > good anodes> base metal. (I'm ignoring fancy expensive things such as high quality stainless and titanium alloys because you can't build a million car bodies out of those) Properly coated steel will last longer than poorly coated aluminum. Just look at galvanized or properly painted steel vs an aluminum outboard that lost it's anode (saltwater applications of course). Aluminum "doesn't corrode" because the initial corrosion forms a coating that prevents further corrosion. If you wire wheel AL bar stock it will shine. If you put that bar stock outside somewhere other than the desert it will tarnish in a few days. If you put that bar stock underneath a vehicle it will slowly turn to dust as the dust/dirt/etc slowly blast away any surface coating that forms exposing new material which corrodes and the cycle is repeated until your aluminum part has turned to dust. In reality something as thick as a control arm will fatigue and crack long before that. If you're trying to reduce weight by using aluminum there's a near 0% chance that you're designing the part to last more than a few hundred percent of the warranty period for the most demanding typical use case (in the case of suspension parts that would be something like doing 10k mi/yr on graded dirt and potholed pavement) Among the google results for "why aluminum doesn't rust": http://news.stanford.edu/pr/00/aluminum511.html http://news.stanford.edu/pr/00/aluminum511.html
- jballer 10y agoBuried in the original form thread[1] there are links to two articles[2][3] about drivers who died when they drove off cliffs in their Model S's. These are absolutely chilling to read in light of the potential suspension issues… 1: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1573665/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1573665/ 2: http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20150623/man-who-died-in-fiery-malibu-canyon-crash-of-tesla-is-53-year-old-from-calabasas http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20150623/man-who-died-... 3: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3318773-181/marin-county-driver-who-died?gallery=3314901&artslide=0 http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3318773-181/marin-county-d...
- oconnor663 10y ago> [the NHTSA] closed the matter after Tesla agreed to reinforce the shield that protects the battery "Agreed"? Was Tesla reluctant to reinforce their batteries until this regulator pressured them to do it, or was this wording chosen to make Tesla sound bad?
- Fej 10y agoI want to love Tesla so bad, but stories like this remind me that they're still putting out an early-adopter product. I can deal with being an early adopter of, say, a phone, but a car? Where one little mistake can make the difference between life and death? That's a tall order. Also, they spy on you, so there's that, too.
- VeejayRampay 10y agoThe level of scrutiny Tesla is under is extremely surprising. It's like anecdotal is enough to warrant a big story every single time. I'm usually not one for conspiracies, but it is odd that we see so many posts on Tesla's issues and not so much for other car manufacturers, making it appear from the outside world that Tesla cars are nothing but problems. Then again, there might also be selection bias on my part when selecting stories about cars in general, entirely possible. And maybe they're so disruptive that they actually do attract more attention, both positive and negative.
- stevep98 10y agoTesla has posted their response: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt
- lsaferite 10y agoGreat response from Tesla. Not sure the detour into 2 tow trucks and a dirt road was needed, but whatever floats their boat I guess.
- sidcool 10y agoTesla's response: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/grain-of-salt