17 ms·

If no-one helps you after a car crash in India, this is why

230 points by CarolineW 10y ago

Gys 10y ago
tl;dr: "The foremost reason was intimidation by police," he says. "Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt." Apart from the fear of being falsely implicated, people also worried about becoming trapped as a witness in a court case - legal proceedings can be notoriously protracted in India. And if they helped the victim get to hospital, they feared coming under pressure to stump up fees for medical treatment.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  You're missing the section at the end about hospitals refusing treatment when someone's brought in by a stranger that won't be paying.
  - wmt 10y ago
    I wonder how does that even work? If someone drops in an injured person and leaves, will the hospital just let the injured person die on the floor? If bystanders doing nothing raises headlines in India, I'd imagine hospitals doing that would be an even bigger scandal.
    - shripadk 10y ago
      I can confirm this. Hospitals don't treat unless the injured person's relative(s) sign legal papers. The general rule of thumb in India is that one should always carry at least an ID proof (better yet an insurance policy) so that in case of an accident the hospital can contact the relative.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        This is what a true free-market health care system looks like. I always wonder about this when I see people arguing against socialized medicine. Should accident victims be left to die like this? Any answer besides "yes" implies some sort of government intervention. In the US, since 1986, ERs must treat everyone. This basically gave us a really bizarre socialized medicine system with horribly inefficient funding and procedures.
        ars 10y ago
        It used to be that charitable societies setup funds within hospitals to pay for such people. If they were able to bill insurance, or the person, later, then the fund would be replenished. So it is possible to say "yes" and not have government involved.
        mikeash 10y ago
        So when we take a look at societies that actually do it this way, such as India today or the USA before 1986, why do we find hospitals dumping patients who can't pay?
        shripadk 10y ago
        That exists in India in the form of societies like Lions Club, Rotary Club etc. However, the number of hospitals that are supported by these charitable societies are understandably smaller in comparison to the number of private hospitals.
      - mcguire 10y ago
        That sounds more scandalous than roadside bystanders.
      - lenkite 10y ago
        I double-confirm this, but with the exception of charity and government hospitals. There are several such hospitals in every major metropolitan city in India. Of course, the 'nearest' hospital may not be one such. The private hospitals operate on pure capitalism and patients who cannot pay are always delayed and then later declared as brought dead on arrival (DOA).
    - nashashmi 10y ago
      Yeah, hospitals and doctors won't admit. A quick story in Pakistan: A brain surgeon had a lot of success doing brain surgeries and received much fame, award, and status worldwide, and even though he started out modestly helping the poor and less fortunate, fame and greed got to him, and he became more demanding in terms of payment. Well, a man brought in a young individual involved in a car accident who had received a big blow to the brain to the hospital where the doctor worked. The young man was a passerby to the accident and a complete stranger. He begged and pleaded this world famous doctor at the hospital to operate, but the doctor wanted payment. He eventually offered his own car keys as a security deposit for the time being while he would try to raise money in other ways. The doctor accepted the security deposit and began to operate. It was too late, however, because when the doctor opened the curtain he found the injured individual to be his son about to take his last breath. The doctor went insane and died.
      - andai 10y ago
        Now if that isn't karma I don't know what is
      - gohrt 10y ago
        Are you claiming this story is true? Was this story ever documented? It has all the looks of an "urban legend"
        nashashmi 10y ago
        I know it sounds that way especially with the last line, and I have been trying to find some documentation to back it up, but no luck. However, the story is true. The story is known with relative popularity in Pakistan including the name of the doctor, which escapes my mind.
- personlurking 10y ago
  While I haven't been to Japan, a documentary [1] on expats living in Japan had a part (if my memory serves me) where the same sentiment was expressed, ie, "don't involve yourself". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNYOW0_kms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNYOW0_kms PS - Even if my memory is from another source regarding Japan, the documentary showed me a lot I didn't know.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    I've only watched the first 20 minutes of the documentary, but I'm impressed. It's probably one of the most accurate portrayals of what it's like to be a foreigner living long term in Japan that I've seen. Like always, documentary directors usually like to be controversial, so I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop ;-) In terms of "don't involve yourself", I wouldn't say that's really true. The very few times I've seen anyone in trouble, people have rushed to come to their aid. I live in the countryside, though, so it might be different than the big city. Social duty is a big part of Japanese culture, though, so I can't really imagine people ignoring others in distress. As a brief diversion, I recently went to Tokyo and was surprised by how many more homeless people there are now than there were roughly 10 years ago. People seem inured to that kind of distress (as they are in any big city, I guess), which is too bad.
    - personlurking 10y ago
      Thanks for your comment. The sentiment I recall is, for instance, related to a thief that's running away after having just stolen a purse and you have the ability to stop him. It was said in regards to big city living and making yourself part of the act in some manner, where you might get pulled into the police station to make a statement and spend hours on something you didn't want to be a part of. Again, I've never set foot in the country, so I can't say either way. Another smaller example might be someone is talking on their cell phone on the train, and thus a Japanese person wouldn't go up to the one yapping on the phone to tell them it's rude, per Japanese standards.
      - mikekchar 10y ago
inputjoker 10y ago
I would like to add one more issue to this. In India local roads are narrow and it is mostly two lane or 4 lane with heavy traffic blocks. Even if someone tried to carry someone to hospital,(op already has mentioned about the ambulance crisis, and don't even think about air ambulance), he/she will be met with roadblocks after roadblocks.
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jasode 10y ago
China also has similar culture of punishing good samaritans: http://www.businessinsider.com/two-year-old-hit-by-car-in-china-2011-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/two-year-old-hit-by-car-in-ch...
- po 10y ago
  It's worse than that, the incentives are such that it's better to kill than maim: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... (although this is apparently in question: http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/) This is one of those subjects where people like to put moral consequences on the bystanders when it's the rules and larger structures of the society that matter. Driving in India is completely insane and after about a week of white-knuckle driving you kind of just go with the flow and convince yourself that it must just work. While that is true the definition of it 'working' is totally unexpected for a westerner. Driving conditions are extremely adversarial and accidents are frequent. People are injured and die all the time. It's the kind of problem that absolutely needs to be solved at the regulatory/policy level.
  - williamstein 10y ago
    Somebody did die while we were reading this article. According to the article "Fifteen people are killed every hour in road accidents in India".
    - shripadk 10y ago
      Statistics always presents a wrong picture when considered in isolation. Just for the sake of curiosity let us compare statistics of road accidents between USA and India. I'm taking the 2005 US road accident data as a reference: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/02/03/car-crashes-kill-40000-in-us-every-year.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/02/03/car-crashes-kill-400... So according to the statistics from the above article, approximately 40,000 die every year in USA with 100 people dying every day due to road accidents. That is approximately 5 per hour. In India it is 100,000 per year. The population of USA is 318.9 million compared to 1.252 billion of India. If you put it in perspective, 0.013% of total population die every year due to road accidents in the US while only 0.00798% of total population die every year due to road accidents in India. So by looking at these calculations India "seems" to be a lot safer than the US (in-spite of horrible traffic rules and no proper emergency services). The issue is not the stats but proper implementation of emergency services which might help in saving a fraction of the total lives lost. But the real issue is regulating traffic (which is more erratic in the cities than in towns/villages in India).
whistlerbrk 10y ago
Sounds like they desperately need a good samaritan law
- kzrdude 10y ago
  No, it sounds like they need to fix a whole range of issues including medical fees, police culture, and so on, that each has a part in enabling social trust.
  - adrianratnapala 10y ago
    This kind of answer to social problems is itself a problem -- no single reform will do much good, so we risk paralysis. But really to move forward people should try to make whatever easy reform might help a bit. In this case a procedural reform in the courts might help. If someone who looks prima-facie like a good Samaritan is being charged with something, and if the court is too swamped to deal with it quickly, they should just drop it. That could help with the police too -- the reason police harass people is to try and get bribes. People pay those bribes because they fear endless red-tape if the try to fight a spurious charge.
- philh 10y ago
  Typically, a good samaritan law relates to the situation where a bystander tries in good faith to help someone, and accidentally makes things worse. A good samaritan law says they won't get in trouble for that. I don't see anything in the article about people being punished for trying to help and making things worse. People get punished just for trying to help. Things go south before a good samaritan law would come into play.
- LionessLover 10y ago
  Sounds more like we desperately need a rule "read the article (in full) before commenting on it".
tunap 10y ago
Tragic. I, personally, could not sit idly by and watch, or record, anyone suffering without attempting to assist. Consequences be damned, I would hope for the same assistance if I were injured & needing aid. This is something I have spent a lot of time contemplating lately as I watch people texting while operating multi-ton vehicles at any speed, let alone at 80mph(130kmh)down the highway. I have witnessed a notable increase in single vehicle rollovers under optimum driving conditions on the US highway system in the last +/- two years. Thankfully, I have yet to arrive before the 1st responders but if I ever do, I will forgo the "they brought it upon themselves" judgement and assist my fellow man/woman, if need be. Yet, I still wonder, how many could have been avoided if distracted driving laws already on the books were enforced?
- kiba 10y ago
  How do you know it's notable in the first place? Do you have statistics for that?
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    > I have witnessed a notable increase in single vehicle rollovers under optimum driving conditions on the US highway system [emphasis added] The comment was one of personal experience, what they've witnessed.
  - tunap 10y ago
    I have never looked into any statistics other than personal observation. Sure, correltion != causation. However, I have over 6000 highway driving miles logged so far this year and have witnessed at least a dozen single vehicle rollover incidents, excluding incidents in rain & snow conditions, while in the recent past I could travel 10k miles and never see one. My ASSUMPTION derives from the fact that it is not uncommon to see drivers interacting with their devices (and weaving, and varying velocities) on the highways.
- bnegreve 10y ago
  > I, personally, could not sit idly by and watch, or record, anyone suffering without attempting to assist. We should be careful with this kind of statements. I remember that in Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman describes an experiment which shows that most people don't actually take action when the responsibility is shared among other people. Of course most people think they would.
busterarm 10y ago
I'm vaguely reminded of Bradbury's 'The Crowd' here.
sly010 10y ago
I can't find it now, but there is a video of a dozen pedestrians lifting a double decker in London. It's all started by a single person, but others quickly joined. I wonder where is "helping others" on the Maslow piramid? Edit: Found: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32993891 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32993891
- zyxley 10y ago
  That's a good example of both crowd generosity and crowd stupidity: everybody joined in on trying to lift the bus instead of just making the bus driver reverse off the guy who was trapped.
  - philjohn 10y ago
    If you read the article, the bus driver was completely flustered and shut down.
ck2 10y ago
This is a crazy thought but the government or charities could award a random lottery to good-Samaritans? Then suddenly everyone will want to help. The only problem is this will also cause fake incidents for fraud purposes. Or people who purposely cause accidents to "help". But if they can solve that issue, might work?
- shripadk 10y ago
  Government/charities need not award us any lottery. All the Government needs to do is bring a law that protects the good-samaritans (remove all the unnecessary legal hassles and allow us to be anonymous). Heck I would even be willing to pay the hospital's initial deposit only if I don't have to be entangled in all sorts of legal issues. Currently if you report an accident or get the injured person to a hospital you'll be treated as a witness and have to attend all court proceedings. The law should differentiate between a samaritan and a witness (unless the samaritan also wishes to be treated as a witness).
  - naveen99 10y ago
    > you'll be treated as a witness and have to attend all court proceedings sounds like FUD. why should a witness have to attend any time other than one time to testify (usually as a friendly witness, i imagine forcing hostile testimony is even rarer). court proceedings can include filing various forms which are done by one person or not done at all (causing delays). I don't see anyone dragging you to court to file papers that you have nothing to do with... Unless they are charging you with something and arresting you or making you serve on a jury (india doesn't even have jury trials), why would you have to be at the court multiple times just as a witness ? > I don't have to be entangled in all sorts of legal issues. The way to avoid being entangled in legal issues is 1. avoid doing things you know are illegal and 2. avoid pissing off someone (who will see that you get prosecuted for failing at 1).
    - shripadk 10y ago
      It is not FUD. It is a fact and has been the case with lots of accidents in India. If that was not so, the Supreme Court of India would not have approved guidelines on how to treat Good-Samaritans. Read about it here: http://thewire.in/2016/03/30/sc-guidelines-now-protect-good-samaritans-who-help-road-accident-victims-26680/ http://thewire.in/2016/03/30/sc-guidelines-now-protect-good-... . The PIL (filed by SaveLIFE foundation) that enabled this issue to be brought to the notice of the Supreme Court clearly states that 88% of the people who they surveyed had attributed this hesitation to fear of legal and procedural hassles: “These hassles include intimidation by police, unnecessary detention at hospitals and prolonged legal formalities,”. The problem is that these guidelines are not enforceable unless they are turned into a law.
ordbajsare 10y ago
Translation : Indan culture SUCK!
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pc86 10y ago
> "Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt." The most charitable way I can think of to describe that might be "one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time." Maybe it's guilt, or maybe it's because the bystander is not a terrible human being?
- jandrese 10y ago
  To the cop it doesn't matter. He just needs someone to blame and look, here's someone who looks kinda guilty. Sure the case might fall apart in court, but that means going to court and defending yourself, a not inconsiderable expense and time commitment.
simula67 10y ago
> legal proceedings can be notoriously protracted in India This is the root of so much evil in India. It is probably the largest issue facing this country. Every citizen should have a fundamental right to a speedy resolution to their grievances.
- mschuster91 10y ago
  To be fair, it's not just India that faces this problem. Italy, and to a lesser extent France, are kept back in economic development due to extremely long (civil) legal proceedings - in fact, Berlusconi and his crooks abused this multiple times to STFO of jail time. In Germany, it's mostly the criminal justice system that suffers from massive case overload - it takes sometimes over a year to get the first trial in a simple pub brawl case or a small store theft - and that disconnect between infraction and punishment has been shown multiple times to result in more infractions (because thieves will think "ah, won't happen anything anyway"). I get why people want to claim India is a 3rd world country (and, for what it's worth, parts of India ARE, given e.g. sanitary conditions!), but one should not compare based on the efficiency of the legal system. Some might say that the USA could be considered a 3rd world country under this comparison, given that you can land in jail for civil debt, end up life-long in prison for small thefts (3 Strike Rule), end up on the chair for dealing drugs, ...
  - pjlegato 10y ago
    "Third world country" is not shorthand for "poor, backwards land." It means a country that was not aligned with either the United States (first world) or the Soviet Union (second world) during the Cold War.
    - mschuster91 10y ago
      I know, but for what it's worth it means the same thing.
weeksie 10y ago
A little tangental. Indians are insanely good drivers given their actual traffic conditions. I just spent two months there and as (fucking annoying) as it was to walk through the crowds with motorcycles whipping by, inches away from me all the time, I wasn't very concerned with them hitting me. Anecdotally, everybody appeared to be watching everyone else on the road—otherwise it would have been sheer insanity because their infrastructure is horrible. Thai drivers on the other hand. . . .
- deleted 10y ago
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- FussyZeus 10y ago
  I've always been curious where the downright crazy driving style/culture came from in India. It's like nowhere I've ever seen, they drive on whatever side of the road they want, there are no traffic lights, I mean I get that it's a developing country but none of this stuff is that expensive to procure, is it?
  - zyxley 10y ago
    Coordinated control of traffic lights isn't cheap. Some quick googling says $250K to $500K per signal[1] when done from scratch. [1]: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Operations/Traffic/signals.htm http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Operations/Traffic/signals.htm
    - FussyZeus 10y ago
      I stand corrected then. Still seems like it would be a worthwhile investment given their insane traffic death rates.
      - ocean3 10y ago
        Traffic lights are not an issue. Its present in most towns as well. Most of the time if you break a traffic light you would not be penalized. Usually there won't be an policeman nearby. Even they are present they do not implement the law.
known 10y ago
Here is the real reason http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...
- jccalhoun 10y ago
  how does racism explain why people in India won't help other Indians? I know Indian has a wide diversity of languages and religions but even at the very least I would expect people from the same group to help but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
  - tunap 10y ago
    India's Caste System is very rigid, apparently. I asked an Indian friend in college to explain it to me before the interwebz. After the rage she showered upon me for asking I never followed up. Perhaps I will now... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
    - shripadk 10y ago
      Caste system is not the same as Racism. However, it has nothing to do with accidents. When you see a person involved in an accident in India you won't be able to make out his/her caste by looking at them (unlike race where the racial features are apparent).
      - tunap 10y ago
        Thanks for the info, I assumed apparel and appearance were distinguishable between the groups. I will follow up on my unanswered inquiry for my edification.
        shripadk 10y ago
        I can help you get a fair idea of the prevalent caste system: 1. You can get all knowledge about the caste system from the interwebs. Especially read up on "Manu Smriti" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Smriti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Smriti). The caste system that was practiced centuries ago does not exist today. So whatever you read on the interwebs take it with a grain of salt. A lot has changed for the better. 2. Caste doesn't come into picture in day-to-day life (unlike race where you might be harassed for the race you belong to as there is no escaping your racial features). 3. Caste plays a major role in marriages. Inter-caste marriages are discouraged by a section of the society. This is more prevalent in northern parts of India in comparison to the south. 4. Education/Government jobs have a quota system for lower castes. This has become a reason for hatred between the upper and lower castes because it doesn't encourage meritocracy. 5. In some really orthodox parts of Indian society (which is very small) segregation exists where lower castes are not allowed for example to take water from the same well as the rest of the village. 6. Violence on lower castes still exists in some villages. However I can happily say that I have hardly come across any casteism myself. Maybe that is because I live in urban India.
pif 10y ago
> "[At the hospital", they wait for somebody to give them assurance that they will pay the bill." How can such low levels of humanity be reached at a hospital?
- Xenon54 10y ago
  When first visiting the US many years ago I was warned always to carry with me proof of insurance, for otherwise a hospital might not treat me until I could provide some proof that I could pay. I wonder if that was true, whether it's still true, and what the situation really was or is.
  - thaeli 10y ago
    In the US, a hospital is required to give you emergency treatment first, and figure out how you're going to pay later. If you don't have insurance coverage, that can mean ruinous bills, but no, they don't check before treating you in an emergency situation. For non-emergency stuff, yes, you need to pay or present insurance info up front.
    - ensignavenger 10y ago
      Of course, your definition of emergency might not match the hospitals.
      - djrogers 10y ago
        Actually, no - a hospital emergency room in the US has to provide you any needed medical care - full stop.
        ensignavenger 10y ago
        Interesting- do you have a source for this? Everything I have found states otherwise- for example- https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/ph/rpt/2003-R-0621.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/ph/rpt/2003-R-0621.htm
Xcelerate 10y ago
> Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt. That doesn't make the bystanders apathy any more tolerable. I'd like to think I would help someone in need even if I went to jail for it (you never know what you'd actually do unless you're in the situation, but still...)
- dominotw 10y ago
  >I'd like to think I would help someone in need even if I went to jail for it You have no idea how bad indian courts and jails are. You would not want to go to jail in India. It would be miracle if you get to see a judge in India between absentee judges, strikes, power cuts ect. Absolutely noone will give a shit about you being incarcerated unfairly.
  - Xcelerate 10y ago
    If that's the price you have to pay to save someone's life, then so be it.
    - LionessLover 10y ago
      You can go to India and lead by example instead of from your comfortable room.
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petilon 10y ago
In California the supreme court has ruled that you can be sued by an accident victim for being a Good Samaritan: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1871331,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1871331,0...
- Johnny555 10y ago
  California tightened up their Good Samaritan protection in response to that court decision: http://www.metnews.com/articles/2009/bill080709.htm http://www.metnews.com/articles/2009/bill080709.htm http://www.montereysar.org/SARMembersDocs/Good_Samaritan_Liability_in_CA_2009.pdf http://www.montereysar.org/SARMembersDocs/Good_Samaritan_Lia...
anupshinde 10y ago
India is a diverse country, and people in different cities behave differently. I've had my experiences. I have found bystanders in Bangalore, Mumbai, Ahmedabad to be helping. But bystanders in Pune get a brain-freeze, and in Delhi they just don't care
Chris2048 10y ago
Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue context: "...the story of a man named Peng Yu in Nanjing who was sued by a woman after helping her. The old woman was successful in seeking damages from the man because the judge claimed that the man wouldn’t have helped her unless he was guilty of injuring her in the first place..." -- https://chinachange.org/2011/10/20/the-good-samaritan-in-china/ https://chinachange.org/2011/10/20/the-good-samaritan-in-chi...
- jlg23 10y ago
  Not really relevant, the problem in China is that one has[1] to pay for a disabled person for all that person's life while a death incurs a one time payment. [1] IIRC the recently changed the relevant laws or are currently debating to change them.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    The problem is also that you risk getting blamed merely for helping, This is why it is relevent.
    - crimsonalucard 10y ago
      IMO the above case is more of a symptom of the problem rather than what causes the problem itself. Someone who helps is implicated as guilty because being indifferent and lacking morals is expected behavior, while 'helping' is considered highly abnormal and therefore the action is suspect. From personal experience I do not believe this is the real reason for why a family is left dying on the road. When I travel to certain countries in Asia I notice that there is a severe lack of morals and ethics. Heck in China, drivers back up over accident victims that they just hit to make sure the victim is dead so as to avoid a lifetime of hospital fees. I mean, this is murder done in the name to avoid paying a fee. What you see here in India is part of this same lack of ethics and morals that pervade certain cultures. People are honestly capable of great evil. What makes one culture more ethical than another country? I believe that the anthropological correlation lies in wealth and population. If a country is of high population and poor, then you will see more of this type of behavior. High population cities that are wealthy like tokyo or singapore are not like this at all while in the rural areas of nepal I've seen a sherpa carry an injured european stranger on his back down a mountain to base camp. Of course this is all anecdotal. There really needs to be a scientific study on ethics and culture. It would be a very touchy subject though as the results of the study will implicate some cultures as more 'evil' than others.
ArenaSource 10y ago
Change the law. In Spain not helping someone that is found helpless and in danger, when you can do so without risk to yourself or others, is a criminal offence.
- sbuttgereit 10y ago
  Sure, why fix the problem (being too easily blamed for an accident when you give aid, etc.) when you can just write a law that does nothing to address it? You assuage whatever societal guilt you might have for the problem without requiring the hard work of actually making any substantive change. Such a law would be virtually impossible to enforce in any reasonable way; yes, you can make the odd example of someone, but are you going to spend massive effort on tracking down every passerby on whatever surveillance video might exist should they fail to give aid? If you were said passerby, wouldn't you just get away from the scene all that much more quickly to avoid the greater likelihood of being caught up in the mess? While I disagree with your thinking, I do have to say you're clearly qualified for politics as this sort of logic drives a significant part of lawmaking... certainly in the U.S. and I suspect in other places around the world as well... maybe even India.
- hackeratti 10y ago
  In the western world the law is the answer to most problems, but that's not possible in developing worlds where the judicial system is ineffective, biased and sometimes corrupt. In many situations, the laws hinder the countries from becoming better.
- LionessLover 10y ago
  Maybe you should have read the article?
- adamconroy 10y ago
  that sounds like the plot of the final episode of a reasonably successful sitcom.
baking 10y ago
American GI's noticed the same thing in India during WWII but it was attributed to Hindu fatalism. I wonder if that cultural history plays an unspoken role too.
- hackeratti 10y ago
  What is Hindu fatalism? Hearing the term for the first time.
  - up_and_up 10y ago
    Karma. If something happens to you, it is your actions in the past either in this life or a previous life which are the original cause. Hence you are just receiving back the same as you have given. The problem with ignoring someone in trouble is those people are actually missing the chance to create good karma by helping those in need.
    - baking 10y ago
      Also, reincarnation played a part in the American understanding. They were moving on to a new life and you wouldn't want to interfere. I'm not saying that this was a sophisticated understanding. These were random American service men send to support the airlift to Burma. All I'm saying is that this was a common phenomena in the early 1940's in at least part of India and it's unlikely that it was the result of the British-Indian judicial system of the time.
mizzao 10y ago
Also related, but a different problem: the "hit-to-kill" phenomenon in China. Drivers try to kill any pedestrians they injure because they will be liable for more economic costs if the victim survives. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...
hitr 10y ago
I am from India and many people I know at least think that they will get into more trouble with police or hospital formalities if they help.Even many films made here portray same picture to the public. My mother once told me (when i was a kid) one person from her hometown who was a lorry driver ,once helped an accident victim and took him to hospital. But in the end they framed the same guy on murder attempt and he had to run behind the case for long time and he eventually lost everything. Having said all this,I personally think how can someone ignore an injury to anyone ? My conscience will not let me pass through without offering help if I ever see anything.
- ocean3 10y ago
  I heard these kind of stories as well. But the driving school where i went specifically mentioned to help injured passengers. Maybe times are changing.
jargnar 10y ago
A very real, slightly non-obvious problem is the size of the Indian population itself. There are so many people here that, competition is a stronger emotion than community. To an extent that sometimes it is considered normal to put someone else at risk for your benefit, while self-empathizing along the lines of "Hey, if I don't do it, someone else will stamp on that person to move ahead in life." Competition is everywhere. - Want a seat in a University? Compete with, literally a million others for just one seat. - Want a train ticket to travel within India? Login to the IRCTC exactly at 8 am, and pray that the next 5 seconds is your lucky time. - Want to travel via local train? Hang on to the windows outside (Mumbai). Too many people that -- it is dangerously becoming almost culturally normal to prioritize your life over someone else's. Combine this with the corrupt administration, and poor infrastructure... and it is painful to think about. We're forgetting humanity at the cost of too many humans to compete with. That being said, there are definitely people who do help. Helpful people in India are in fact, extremely helpful. I've received help myself. But these days, the probability of that happening is perhaps decreasing.
- paulcole 10y ago
  > culturally normal to prioritize your life over someone else's I think this is common to the US as well. Of course I think my life is more important to someone else. That's why I drive like an idiot, cut in line, take without asking, talk loudly on my phone in quiet places, smoke/vape wherever I want, etc.
- ccvannorman 10y ago
  Has India reached / is it reaching Peak Child? I know predictions globally are for ~9Bn people, I wonder how much of that will be in India.
  - Udo 10y ago
    India is projected to be one of the twelve countries who together will account for 50% of the world's population growth until 2050, at which point it's assumed India will host 1.7 billion humans. Asia will in total have gone from 4.3 to 5.2 billions, which is by far not as dramatic as the projected growth of Africa from 1.1 billion now to 2.5 billion in 2050. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
curiousgal 10y ago
Oh wow, just when I thought I couldn't be more disgusted by India for its rape culture, I come across this. Call me racist but I will never set foot in that country.
- anu_gupta 10y ago
  Good. More than happy to not have people like you anywhere near India.
  - dang 10y ago
    That's an understandable sentiment, but please don't make HN worse by responding to one bad comment with another one.
    - anu_gupta 10y ago
      Yes, that's fair. I should have flagged it and moved on.
- shripadk 10y ago
  So according to you rape culture is not prevalent in any other country except India? Guess what? The number one, numero uno, rape capital of the World is the United States. I'll quote an article for you: http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world "India only ranks third for the number of rapes reported each year. What country ranks first? The United States. In India, a country of over 1.2 billion people, 24,206 rapes were reported in 2011. The same year in the United States, a nation of 300 million, 83,425 rapes were reported. In the United States, every 6.2 minutes a woman is raped." Whoops! So that means you shouldn't set foot in the US too!!! And if you are already staying in the US pack your bags and move to let's see... How about Saudi Arabia? The reported cases are way lesser than US or India so it should be safe right?
  - stan_rogers 10y ago
    The obvious keyword here being reported. Not that I'm necessarily agreeing with the GP; it's just that rape/sexual assault is something that is generally under-reported for various reasons, including shame, fear of reprisal, futility, and so on. That makes any statistics relying on reported rape essentially meaningless when talking about "rape culture", since reports are more likely the less culturally acceptable something is.
HemanHeartYou 10y ago
i get it, its not just the lack of enforced road laws, it's the lack of action of the bystanders honestly though how many of those bystanders would be able to stop someone from dying, i don't think that knowledge is widely known in any culture.
titomc 10y ago
Kerala [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala] , a small southern state in India known for its high literacy rate in India [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Kerala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Kerala] has a highly efficient emergency service on #108.[http://www.arogyakeralam.gov.in/index.php/special-initiaves/kemp http://www.arogyakeralam.gov.in/index.php/special-initiaves/...] I often hear news of this service being extremely efficient and the reports of bystanders not helping accident victims are rare from that state. This has to do something with the literacy rate as well as an efficient emergency service. Most of the cases of "no one helps you in India" cannot be generalized is my opinion.
varchar 10y ago
My family has lived in South India for many decades. India's infrastructure and emergency response in not very good although it has improved over the years. One thing I have observed is - it is the bystanders, the common man who rushe to the aid of victims in case of disasters - accidents, train derailment, floods, earthquakes. I could give you dozens of examples gathered from newspapers and from first hand experiences of kith and kin. People just jump in and start helping in such situations. People help each other especially when the emergency response is not reliable or immediately available. If your car slid into a ditch in rural Minnesota, passing cars will come to your aid. Where as in New York City, people may just drive by knowing that you will get a tow truck. This is the issue with reports like this - they pick one or two such statistically rare case and write a report it, opening the door wide to generalization especially on a globally popular news site. For every such incident, I'm sure there are tens of thousands incidents where people help, which never get reported.
- deleted 10y ago
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- Alterlife 10y ago
  To be fair, all the cases that you mentioned are those where where the police and the system do not look for someone to blame. The article doesn't disagree with you: > what safety campaigner Piyush Tewari saw wasn't a lack of compassion but an entire system stacked against helping road victims. ... > He contrasts the reluctance of passers-by to help victims of road accidents with their response to train crashes or bombs blasts. In these cases, he says, "before the police or media arrives everybody's been moved to hospital". There's also very important information in the article about new guidelines published by the supreme court of India to protect good samaritans.
  - pjlegato 10y ago
    It also says the new Supreme Court orders (not guidelines) are being widely ignored, and so they are now running a state-by-state campaign to get laws passed that match the orders.
- 10y ago
abraham_s 10y ago
1) This is highly dependent on the place. In rural areas or smaller towns, there is high probability that someone will take you to the hospital. 2) There is no equivalent of 911 in India. You can call the police but they usually don't have ambulances. Most cases you will have to take the injured in a private vehicle to the hospital. 3) Harassment by police is a real thing in many places. They will suspect you of being involved in the accident. At least in my state (Kerala) there has been conscious effort to resolve this and seems to be working. 4) There is government hospitals who will treat you, no questions asked. But these are not present everywhere, and many don't have adequate resources (Operation theaters, Intensive Care Units etc) in many of these. So there is a chance that you will have to travel to bigger hospital to get appropriate care. Anecdote. Few years back , I was driving to my home when police flagged me down and asked me to take a lady injured (she was pillion-riding on a two wheeler) to the hospital. Took then to fairly large government hospital (which is also a medical college). The attending doctor asked me whether I was involved in the accident and the told me I can leave. I informed the relatives of the injured (got numbers from her companion) and left.
- Loughla 10y ago
  Real naive question time, sorry ahead of time - are the police as corrupt as they're portrayed to be in western media? Bribes requested constantly, that sort of thing?
  - livus 10y ago
    On average yes. There's massive corruption. Source - I live here
  - jsudhams 10y ago
    If you have done mistake and need to escape yes bribe is relevant or you want something to happen faster again yes otherwise mostly if you are not in hurry or did not do anything wrong mostly need not pay anything. SOme police may still ask you to buy him a coffee or 50 to 500 rupees depending on ur urgency and his tightness
  - abraham_s 10y ago
tmalsburg2 10y ago
When I visited India a couple of years ago, we also observed this indifference towards victims of accidents. Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in Christian cultures. I don't know whether this is correct and even if it's correct it would of course not negate the reasons discussed in the article. It may rather be an additional factor. Would be interesting to hear an Indian person's view on that.
- shripadk 10y ago
  > Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. As an Indian I can tell you that that viewpoint is incorrect. Culture is the last thing that would come in between a good-samaritan and a person in need. > Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in a Christian culture Are you implying that Christians don't exist in India? If they do, then why are Christian Indians not coming to the rescue of those who met with an accident? This is a completely incorrect take on the situation. Mixing religion with a social issue is dangerous. Indian culture is good enough that we can accommodate any culture and have been doing so for centuries. To say that we do not have moral fiber is an insult. If that was the case why is it that when there is a terror attack or a natural tragedy in India people help in huge numbers? See the number of people out there to help in the recent Kolkatta Flyover accident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XmvROEYYps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XmvROEYYps So why do you think that Indians are more than willing to help when there is a natural tragedy / terror attack but not when a single person/family meets with an accident?
  - tmalsburg2 10y ago
    I appreciate the response but you completely misinterpreted my comment. I did not say or imply that there are no Christians in India, and I did not say or imply that every Christian would rush to help while every non-Christian would be indifferent. I also didn't imply that Indian culture(s) are somehow inferior to western culture(s). I just related what one person in India told me and asked whether Indians think it's correct. I don't see how this insults anyone.
ehmuidifici 10y ago
I have a friend who lived in India and one of things he got impressed here in Brazil was how helpful we are, specially in these situations. Which is weird because as someone said before, I could not sit and watch someone suffering in front of me without attempting to assist too. But if you're inserted into a culture that says "don't be a good samaritan unless you want to be sued for it", you have to think twice.
thuruv 10y ago
There are not many reasons except the nightmare of getting their time wasted by Police officers (Along with a gift of being treated like a accused) only turns the bystanders heart stoned.
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SixSigma 10y ago
Whoever is around when the cops arrive often gets arrested. If you find a body in India, you run the other way. If you take an injured person to hospital you get a bill.

230 points by CarolineW 10y ago

Gys 10y ago

tl;dr: "The foremost reason was intimidation by police," he says. "Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt." Apart from the fear of being falsely implicated, people also worried about becoming trapped as a witness in a court case - legal proceedings can be notoriously protracted in India. And if they helped the victim get to hospital, they feared coming under pressure to stump up fees for medical treatment.

Dylan16807 10y ago
You're missing the section at the end about hospitals refusing treatment when someone's brought in by a stranger that won't be paying.
- wmt 10y ago
  I wonder how does that even work? If someone drops in an injured person and leaves, will the hospital just let the injured person die on the floor? If bystanders doing nothing raises headlines in India, I'd imagine hospitals doing that would be an even bigger scandal.
  - shripadk 10y ago
    I can confirm this. Hospitals don't treat unless the injured person's relative(s) sign legal papers. The general rule of thumb in India is that one should always carry at least an ID proof (better yet an insurance policy) so that in case of an accident the hospital can contact the relative.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      This is what a true free-market health care system looks like. I always wonder about this when I see people arguing against socialized medicine. Should accident victims be left to die like this? Any answer besides "yes" implies some sort of government intervention. In the US, since 1986, ERs must treat everyone. This basically gave us a really bizarre socialized medicine system with horribly inefficient funding and procedures.
      - ars 10y ago
        It used to be that charitable societies setup funds within hospitals to pay for such people. If they were able to bill insurance, or the person, later, then the fund would be replenished. So it is possible to say "yes" and not have government involved.
        mikeash 10y ago
        So when we take a look at societies that actually do it this way, such as India today or the USA before 1986, why do we find hospitals dumping patients who can't pay?
        shripadk 10y ago
        That exists in India in the form of societies like Lions Club, Rotary Club etc. However, the number of hospitals that are supported by these charitable societies are understandably smaller in comparison to the number of private hospitals.
    - mcguire 10y ago
      That sounds more scandalous than roadside bystanders.
    - lenkite 10y ago
      I double-confirm this, but with the exception of charity and government hospitals. There are several such hospitals in every major metropolitan city in India. Of course, the 'nearest' hospital may not be one such. The private hospitals operate on pure capitalism and patients who cannot pay are always delayed and then later declared as brought dead on arrival (DOA).
  - nashashmi 10y ago
    Yeah, hospitals and doctors won't admit. A quick story in Pakistan: A brain surgeon had a lot of success doing brain surgeries and received much fame, award, and status worldwide, and even though he started out modestly helping the poor and less fortunate, fame and greed got to him, and he became more demanding in terms of payment. Well, a man brought in a young individual involved in a car accident who had received a big blow to the brain to the hospital where the doctor worked. The young man was a passerby to the accident and a complete stranger. He begged and pleaded this world famous doctor at the hospital to operate, but the doctor wanted payment. He eventually offered his own car keys as a security deposit for the time being while he would try to raise money in other ways. The doctor accepted the security deposit and began to operate. It was too late, however, because when the doctor opened the curtain he found the injured individual to be his son about to take his last breath. The doctor went insane and died.
    - andai 10y ago
      Now if that isn't karma I don't know what is
    - gohrt 10y ago
      Are you claiming this story is true? Was this story ever documented? It has all the looks of an "urban legend"
      - nashashmi 10y ago
        I know it sounds that way especially with the last line, and I have been trying to find some documentation to back it up, but no luck. However, the story is true. The story is known with relative popularity in Pakistan including the name of the doctor, which escapes my mind.
personlurking 10y ago
While I haven't been to Japan, a documentary [1] on expats living in Japan had a part (if my memory serves me) where the same sentiment was expressed, ie, "don't involve yourself". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNYOW0_kms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNYOW0_kms PS - Even if my memory is from another source regarding Japan, the documentary showed me a lot I didn't know.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  I've only watched the first 20 minutes of the documentary, but I'm impressed. It's probably one of the most accurate portrayals of what it's like to be a foreigner living long term in Japan that I've seen. Like always, documentary directors usually like to be controversial, so I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop ;-) In terms of "don't involve yourself", I wouldn't say that's really true. The very few times I've seen anyone in trouble, people have rushed to come to their aid. I live in the countryside, though, so it might be different than the big city. Social duty is a big part of Japanese culture, though, so I can't really imagine people ignoring others in distress. As a brief diversion, I recently went to Tokyo and was surprised by how many more homeless people there are now than there were roughly 10 years ago. People seem inured to that kind of distress (as they are in any big city, I guess), which is too bad.
  - personlurking 10y ago
    Thanks for your comment. The sentiment I recall is, for instance, related to a thief that's running away after having just stolen a purse and you have the ability to stop him. It was said in regards to big city living and making yourself part of the act in some manner, where you might get pulled into the police station to make a statement and spend hours on something you didn't want to be a part of. Again, I've never set foot in the country, so I can't say either way. Another smaller example might be someone is talking on their cell phone on the train, and thus a Japanese person wouldn't go up to the one yapping on the phone to tell them it's rude, per Japanese standards.
    - mikekchar 10y ago

inputjoker 10y ago

I would like to add one more issue to this. In India local roads are narrow and it is mostly two lane or 4 lane with heavy traffic blocks. Even if someone tried to carry someone to hospital,(op already has mentioned about the ambulance crisis, and don't even think about air ambulance), he/she will be met with roadblocks after roadblocks.

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jasode 10y ago

China also has similar culture of punishing good samaritans: http://www.businessinsider.com/two-year-old-hit-by-car-in-china-2011-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/two-year-old-hit-by-car-in-ch...

po 10y ago
It's worse than that, the incentives are such that it's better to kill than maim: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... (although this is apparently in question: http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/) This is one of those subjects where people like to put moral consequences on the bystanders when it's the rules and larger structures of the society that matter. Driving in India is completely insane and after about a week of white-knuckle driving you kind of just go with the flow and convince yourself that it must just work. While that is true the definition of it 'working' is totally unexpected for a westerner. Driving conditions are extremely adversarial and accidents are frequent. People are injured and die all the time. It's the kind of problem that absolutely needs to be solved at the regulatory/policy level.
- williamstein 10y ago
  Somebody did die while we were reading this article. According to the article "Fifteen people are killed every hour in road accidents in India".
  - shripadk 10y ago
    Statistics always presents a wrong picture when considered in isolation. Just for the sake of curiosity let us compare statistics of road accidents between USA and India. I'm taking the 2005 US road accident data as a reference: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/02/03/car-crashes-kill-40000-in-us-every-year.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/02/03/car-crashes-kill-400... So according to the statistics from the above article, approximately 40,000 die every year in USA with 100 people dying every day due to road accidents. That is approximately 5 per hour. In India it is 100,000 per year. The population of USA is 318.9 million compared to 1.252 billion of India. If you put it in perspective, 0.013% of total population die every year due to road accidents in the US while only 0.00798% of total population die every year due to road accidents in India. So by looking at these calculations India "seems" to be a lot safer than the US (in-spite of horrible traffic rules and no proper emergency services). The issue is not the stats but proper implementation of emergency services which might help in saving a fraction of the total lives lost. But the real issue is regulating traffic (which is more erratic in the cities than in towns/villages in India).

whistlerbrk 10y ago

Sounds like they desperately need a good samaritan law

kzrdude 10y ago
No, it sounds like they need to fix a whole range of issues including medical fees, police culture, and so on, that each has a part in enabling social trust.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  This kind of answer to social problems is itself a problem -- no single reform will do much good, so we risk paralysis. But really to move forward people should try to make whatever easy reform might help a bit. In this case a procedural reform in the courts might help. If someone who looks prima-facie like a good Samaritan is being charged with something, and if the court is too swamped to deal with it quickly, they should just drop it. That could help with the police too -- the reason police harass people is to try and get bribes. People pay those bribes because they fear endless red-tape if the try to fight a spurious charge.
philh 10y ago
Typically, a good samaritan law relates to the situation where a bystander tries in good faith to help someone, and accidentally makes things worse. A good samaritan law says they won't get in trouble for that. I don't see anything in the article about people being punished for trying to help and making things worse. People get punished just for trying to help. Things go south before a good samaritan law would come into play.
LionessLover 10y ago
Sounds more like we desperately need a rule "read the article (in full) before commenting on it".

tunap 10y ago

Tragic. I, personally, could not sit idly by and watch, or record, anyone suffering without attempting to assist. Consequences be damned, I would hope for the same assistance if I were injured & needing aid. This is something I have spent a lot of time contemplating lately as I watch people texting while operating multi-ton vehicles at any speed, let alone at 80mph(130kmh)down the highway. I have witnessed a notable increase in single vehicle rollovers under optimum driving conditions on the US highway system in the last +/- two years. Thankfully, I have yet to arrive before the 1st responders but if I ever do, I will forgo the "they brought it upon themselves" judgement and assist my fellow man/woman, if need be. Yet, I still wonder, how many could have been avoided if distracted driving laws already on the books were enforced?

kiba 10y ago
How do you know it's notable in the first place? Do you have statistics for that?
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  > I have witnessed a notable increase in single vehicle rollovers under optimum driving conditions on the US highway system [emphasis added] The comment was one of personal experience, what they've witnessed.
- tunap 10y ago
  I have never looked into any statistics other than personal observation. Sure, correltion != causation. However, I have over 6000 highway driving miles logged so far this year and have witnessed at least a dozen single vehicle rollover incidents, excluding incidents in rain & snow conditions, while in the recent past I could travel 10k miles and never see one. My ASSUMPTION derives from the fact that it is not uncommon to see drivers interacting with their devices (and weaving, and varying velocities) on the highways.
bnegreve 10y ago
> I, personally, could not sit idly by and watch, or record, anyone suffering without attempting to assist. We should be careful with this kind of statements. I remember that in Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman describes an experiment which shows that most people don't actually take action when the responsibility is shared among other people. Of course most people think they would.

busterarm 10y ago

I'm vaguely reminded of Bradbury's 'The Crowd' here.

sly010 10y ago

I can't find it now, but there is a video of a dozen pedestrians lifting a double decker in London. It's all started by a single person, but others quickly joined. I wonder where is "helping others" on the Maslow piramid? Edit: Found: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32993891 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32993891

zyxley 10y ago
That's a good example of both crowd generosity and crowd stupidity: everybody joined in on trying to lift the bus instead of just making the bus driver reverse off the guy who was trapped.
- philjohn 10y ago
  If you read the article, the bus driver was completely flustered and shut down.

ck2 10y ago

This is a crazy thought but the government or charities could award a random lottery to good-Samaritans? Then suddenly everyone will want to help. The only problem is this will also cause fake incidents for fraud purposes. Or people who purposely cause accidents to "help". But if they can solve that issue, might work?

shripadk 10y ago
Government/charities need not award us any lottery. All the Government needs to do is bring a law that protects the good-samaritans (remove all the unnecessary legal hassles and allow us to be anonymous). Heck I would even be willing to pay the hospital's initial deposit only if I don't have to be entangled in all sorts of legal issues. Currently if you report an accident or get the injured person to a hospital you'll be treated as a witness and have to attend all court proceedings. The law should differentiate between a samaritan and a witness (unless the samaritan also wishes to be treated as a witness).
- naveen99 10y ago
  > you'll be treated as a witness and have to attend all court proceedings sounds like FUD. why should a witness have to attend any time other than one time to testify (usually as a friendly witness, i imagine forcing hostile testimony is even rarer). court proceedings can include filing various forms which are done by one person or not done at all (causing delays). I don't see anyone dragging you to court to file papers that you have nothing to do with... Unless they are charging you with something and arresting you or making you serve on a jury (india doesn't even have jury trials), why would you have to be at the court multiple times just as a witness ? > I don't have to be entangled in all sorts of legal issues. The way to avoid being entangled in legal issues is 1. avoid doing things you know are illegal and 2. avoid pissing off someone (who will see that you get prosecuted for failing at 1).
  - shripadk 10y ago
    It is not FUD. It is a fact and has been the case with lots of accidents in India. If that was not so, the Supreme Court of India would not have approved guidelines on how to treat Good-Samaritans. Read about it here: http://thewire.in/2016/03/30/sc-guidelines-now-protect-good-samaritans-who-help-road-accident-victims-26680/ http://thewire.in/2016/03/30/sc-guidelines-now-protect-good-... . The PIL (filed by SaveLIFE foundation) that enabled this issue to be brought to the notice of the Supreme Court clearly states that 88% of the people who they surveyed had attributed this hesitation to fear of legal and procedural hassles: “These hassles include intimidation by police, unnecessary detention at hospitals and prolonged legal formalities,”. The problem is that these guidelines are not enforceable unless they are turned into a law.

ordbajsare 10y ago

Translation : Indan culture SUCK!

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pc86 10y ago

> "Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt." The most charitable way I can think of to describe that might be "one of the stupidest things I've heard in a long time." Maybe it's guilt, or maybe it's because the bystander is not a terrible human being?

jandrese 10y ago
To the cop it doesn't matter. He just needs someone to blame and look, here's someone who looks kinda guilty. Sure the case might fall apart in court, but that means going to court and defending yourself, a not inconsiderable expense and time commitment.

simula67 10y ago

> legal proceedings can be notoriously protracted in India This is the root of so much evil in India. It is probably the largest issue facing this country. Every citizen should have a fundamental right to a speedy resolution to their grievances.

mschuster91 10y ago
To be fair, it's not just India that faces this problem. Italy, and to a lesser extent France, are kept back in economic development due to extremely long (civil) legal proceedings - in fact, Berlusconi and his crooks abused this multiple times to STFO of jail time. In Germany, it's mostly the criminal justice system that suffers from massive case overload - it takes sometimes over a year to get the first trial in a simple pub brawl case or a small store theft - and that disconnect between infraction and punishment has been shown multiple times to result in more infractions (because thieves will think "ah, won't happen anything anyway"). I get why people want to claim India is a 3rd world country (and, for what it's worth, parts of India ARE, given e.g. sanitary conditions!), but one should not compare based on the efficiency of the legal system. Some might say that the USA could be considered a 3rd world country under this comparison, given that you can land in jail for civil debt, end up life-long in prison for small thefts (3 Strike Rule), end up on the chair for dealing drugs, ...
- pjlegato 10y ago
  "Third world country" is not shorthand for "poor, backwards land." It means a country that was not aligned with either the United States (first world) or the Soviet Union (second world) during the Cold War.
  - mschuster91 10y ago
    I know, but for what it's worth it means the same thing.

weeksie 10y ago

A little tangental. Indians are insanely good drivers given their actual traffic conditions. I just spent two months there and as (fucking annoying) as it was to walk through the crowds with motorcycles whipping by, inches away from me all the time, I wasn't very concerned with them hitting me. Anecdotally, everybody appeared to be watching everyone else on the road—otherwise it would have been sheer insanity because their infrastructure is horrible. Thai drivers on the other hand. . . .

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FussyZeus 10y ago
I've always been curious where the downright crazy driving style/culture came from in India. It's like nowhere I've ever seen, they drive on whatever side of the road they want, there are no traffic lights, I mean I get that it's a developing country but none of this stuff is that expensive to procure, is it?
- zyxley 10y ago
  Coordinated control of traffic lights isn't cheap. Some quick googling says $250K to $500K per signal[1] when done from scratch. [1]: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Operations/Traffic/signals.htm http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Operations/Traffic/signals.htm
  - FussyZeus 10y ago
    I stand corrected then. Still seems like it would be a worthwhile investment given their insane traffic death rates.
    - ocean3 10y ago
      Traffic lights are not an issue. Its present in most towns as well. Most of the time if you break a traffic light you would not be penalized. Usually there won't be an policeman nearby. Even they are present they do not implement the law.

known 10y ago

Here is the real reason http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...

jccalhoun 10y ago
how does racism explain why people in India won't help other Indians? I know Indian has a wide diversity of languages and religions but even at the very least I would expect people from the same group to help but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
- tunap 10y ago
  India's Caste System is very rigid, apparently. I asked an Indian friend in college to explain it to me before the interwebz. After the rage she showered upon me for asking I never followed up. Perhaps I will now... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
  - shripadk 10y ago
    Caste system is not the same as Racism. However, it has nothing to do with accidents. When you see a person involved in an accident in India you won't be able to make out his/her caste by looking at them (unlike race where the racial features are apparent).
    - tunap 10y ago
      Thanks for the info, I assumed apparel and appearance were distinguishable between the groups. I will follow up on my unanswered inquiry for my edification.
      - shripadk 10y ago
        I can help you get a fair idea of the prevalent caste system: 1. You can get all knowledge about the caste system from the interwebs. Especially read up on "Manu Smriti" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Smriti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_Smriti). The caste system that was practiced centuries ago does not exist today. So whatever you read on the interwebs take it with a grain of salt. A lot has changed for the better. 2. Caste doesn't come into picture in day-to-day life (unlike race where you might be harassed for the race you belong to as there is no escaping your racial features). 3. Caste plays a major role in marriages. Inter-caste marriages are discouraged by a section of the society. This is more prevalent in northern parts of India in comparison to the south. 4. Education/Government jobs have a quota system for lower castes. This has become a reason for hatred between the upper and lower castes because it doesn't encourage meritocracy. 5. In some really orthodox parts of Indian society (which is very small) segregation exists where lower castes are not allowed for example to take water from the same well as the rest of the village. 6. Violence on lower castes still exists in some villages. However I can happily say that I have hardly come across any casteism myself. Maybe that is because I live in urban India.

pif 10y ago

> "[At the hospital", they wait for somebody to give them assurance that they will pay the bill." How can such low levels of humanity be reached at a hospital?

Xenon54 10y ago
When first visiting the US many years ago I was warned always to carry with me proof of insurance, for otherwise a hospital might not treat me until I could provide some proof that I could pay. I wonder if that was true, whether it's still true, and what the situation really was or is.
- thaeli 10y ago
  In the US, a hospital is required to give you emergency treatment first, and figure out how you're going to pay later. If you don't have insurance coverage, that can mean ruinous bills, but no, they don't check before treating you in an emergency situation. For non-emergency stuff, yes, you need to pay or present insurance info up front.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    Of course, your definition of emergency might not match the hospitals.
    - djrogers 10y ago
      Actually, no - a hospital emergency room in the US has to provide you any needed medical care - full stop.
      - ensignavenger 10y ago
        Interesting- do you have a source for this? Everything I have found states otherwise- for example- https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/ph/rpt/2003-R-0621.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/ph/rpt/2003-R-0621.htm

Xcelerate 10y ago

> Oftentimes if you assist someone the police will assume you're helping that person out of guilt. That doesn't make the bystanders apathy any more tolerable. I'd like to think I would help someone in need even if I went to jail for it (you never know what you'd actually do unless you're in the situation, but still...)

dominotw 10y ago
>I'd like to think I would help someone in need even if I went to jail for it You have no idea how bad indian courts and jails are. You would not want to go to jail in India. It would be miracle if you get to see a judge in India between absentee judges, strikes, power cuts ect. Absolutely noone will give a shit about you being incarcerated unfairly.
- Xcelerate 10y ago
  If that's the price you have to pay to save someone's life, then so be it.
  - LionessLover 10y ago
    You can go to India and lead by example instead of from your comfortable room.
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petilon 10y ago

In California the supreme court has ruled that you can be sued by an accident victim for being a Good Samaritan: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1871331,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1871331,0...

Johnny555 10y ago
California tightened up their Good Samaritan protection in response to that court decision: http://www.metnews.com/articles/2009/bill080709.htm http://www.metnews.com/articles/2009/bill080709.htm http://www.montereysar.org/SARMembersDocs/Good_Samaritan_Liability_in_CA_2009.pdf http://www.montereysar.org/SARMembersDocs/Good_Samaritan_Lia...

anupshinde 10y ago

India is a diverse country, and people in different cities behave differently. I've had my experiences. I have found bystanders in Bangalore, Mumbai, Ahmedabad to be helping. But bystanders in Pune get a brain-freeze, and in Delhi they just don't care

Chris2048 10y ago

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue context: "...the story of a man named Peng Yu in Nanjing who was sued by a woman after helping her. The old woman was successful in seeking damages from the man because the judge claimed that the man wouldn’t have helped her unless he was guilty of injuring her in the first place..." -- https://chinachange.org/2011/10/20/the-good-samaritan-in-china/ https://chinachange.org/2011/10/20/the-good-samaritan-in-chi...

jlg23 10y ago
Not really relevant, the problem in China is that one has[1] to pay for a disabled person for all that person's life while a death incurs a one time payment. [1] IIRC the recently changed the relevant laws or are currently debating to change them.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  The problem is also that you risk getting blamed merely for helping, This is why it is relevent.
  - crimsonalucard 10y ago
    IMO the above case is more of a symptom of the problem rather than what causes the problem itself. Someone who helps is implicated as guilty because being indifferent and lacking morals is expected behavior, while 'helping' is considered highly abnormal and therefore the action is suspect. From personal experience I do not believe this is the real reason for why a family is left dying on the road. When I travel to certain countries in Asia I notice that there is a severe lack of morals and ethics. Heck in China, drivers back up over accident victims that they just hit to make sure the victim is dead so as to avoid a lifetime of hospital fees. I mean, this is murder done in the name to avoid paying a fee. What you see here in India is part of this same lack of ethics and morals that pervade certain cultures. People are honestly capable of great evil. What makes one culture more ethical than another country? I believe that the anthropological correlation lies in wealth and population. If a country is of high population and poor, then you will see more of this type of behavior. High population cities that are wealthy like tokyo or singapore are not like this at all while in the rural areas of nepal I've seen a sherpa carry an injured european stranger on his back down a mountain to base camp. Of course this is all anecdotal. There really needs to be a scientific study on ethics and culture. It would be a very touchy subject though as the results of the study will implicate some cultures as more 'evil' than others.

ArenaSource 10y ago

Change the law. In Spain not helping someone that is found helpless and in danger, when you can do so without risk to yourself or others, is a criminal offence.

sbuttgereit 10y ago
Sure, why fix the problem (being too easily blamed for an accident when you give aid, etc.) when you can just write a law that does nothing to address it? You assuage whatever societal guilt you might have for the problem without requiring the hard work of actually making any substantive change. Such a law would be virtually impossible to enforce in any reasonable way; yes, you can make the odd example of someone, but are you going to spend massive effort on tracking down every passerby on whatever surveillance video might exist should they fail to give aid? If you were said passerby, wouldn't you just get away from the scene all that much more quickly to avoid the greater likelihood of being caught up in the mess? While I disagree with your thinking, I do have to say you're clearly qualified for politics as this sort of logic drives a significant part of lawmaking... certainly in the U.S. and I suspect in other places around the world as well... maybe even India.
hackeratti 10y ago
In the western world the law is the answer to most problems, but that's not possible in developing worlds where the judicial system is ineffective, biased and sometimes corrupt. In many situations, the laws hinder the countries from becoming better.
LionessLover 10y ago
Maybe you should have read the article?
adamconroy 10y ago
that sounds like the plot of the final episode of a reasonably successful sitcom.

baking 10y ago

American GI's noticed the same thing in India during WWII but it was attributed to Hindu fatalism. I wonder if that cultural history plays an unspoken role too.

hackeratti 10y ago
What is Hindu fatalism? Hearing the term for the first time.
- up_and_up 10y ago
  Karma. If something happens to you, it is your actions in the past either in this life or a previous life which are the original cause. Hence you are just receiving back the same as you have given. The problem with ignoring someone in trouble is those people are actually missing the chance to create good karma by helping those in need.
  - baking 10y ago
    Also, reincarnation played a part in the American understanding. They were moving on to a new life and you wouldn't want to interfere. I'm not saying that this was a sophisticated understanding. These were random American service men send to support the airlift to Burma. All I'm saying is that this was a common phenomena in the early 1940's in at least part of India and it's unlikely that it was the result of the British-Indian judicial system of the time.

mizzao 10y ago

Also related, but a different problem: the "hit-to-kill" phenomenon in China. Drivers try to kill any pedestrians they injure because they will be liable for more economic costs if the victim survives. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

hitr 10y ago

I am from India and many people I know at least think that they will get into more trouble with police or hospital formalities if they help.Even many films made here portray same picture to the public. My mother once told me (when i was a kid) one person from her hometown who was a lorry driver ,once helped an accident victim and took him to hospital. But in the end they framed the same guy on murder attempt and he had to run behind the case for long time and he eventually lost everything. Having said all this,I personally think how can someone ignore an injury to anyone ? My conscience will not let me pass through without offering help if I ever see anything.

ocean3 10y ago
I heard these kind of stories as well. But the driving school where i went specifically mentioned to help injured passengers. Maybe times are changing.

jargnar 10y ago

A very real, slightly non-obvious problem is the size of the Indian population itself. There are so many people here that, competition is a stronger emotion than community. To an extent that sometimes it is considered normal to put someone else at risk for your benefit, while self-empathizing along the lines of "Hey, if I don't do it, someone else will stamp on that person to move ahead in life." Competition is everywhere. - Want a seat in a University? Compete with, literally a million others for just one seat. - Want a train ticket to travel within India? Login to the IRCTC exactly at 8 am, and pray that the next 5 seconds is your lucky time. - Want to travel via local train? Hang on to the windows outside (Mumbai). Too many people that -- it is dangerously becoming almost culturally normal to prioritize your life over someone else's. Combine this with the corrupt administration, and poor infrastructure... and it is painful to think about. We're forgetting humanity at the cost of too many humans to compete with. That being said, there are definitely people who do help. Helpful people in India are in fact, extremely helpful. I've received help myself. But these days, the probability of that happening is perhaps decreasing.

paulcole 10y ago
> culturally normal to prioritize your life over someone else's I think this is common to the US as well. Of course I think my life is more important to someone else. That's why I drive like an idiot, cut in line, take without asking, talk loudly on my phone in quiet places, smoke/vape wherever I want, etc.
ccvannorman 10y ago
Has India reached / is it reaching Peak Child? I know predictions globally are for ~9Bn people, I wonder how much of that will be in India.
- Udo 10y ago
  India is projected to be one of the twelve countries who together will account for 50% of the world's population growth until 2050, at which point it's assumed India will host 1.7 billion humans. Asia will in total have gone from 4.3 to 5.2 billions, which is by far not as dramatic as the projected growth of Africa from 1.1 billion now to 2.5 billion in 2050. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

curiousgal 10y ago

Oh wow, just when I thought I couldn't be more disgusted by India for its rape culture, I come across this. Call me racist but I will never set foot in that country.

anu_gupta 10y ago
Good. More than happy to not have people like you anywhere near India.
- dang 10y ago
  That's an understandable sentiment, but please don't make HN worse by responding to one bad comment with another one.
  - anu_gupta 10y ago
    Yes, that's fair. I should have flagged it and moved on.
shripadk 10y ago
So according to you rape culture is not prevalent in any other country except India? Guess what? The number one, numero uno, rape capital of the World is the United States. I'll quote an article for you: http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world "India only ranks third for the number of rapes reported each year. What country ranks first? The United States. In India, a country of over 1.2 billion people, 24,206 rapes were reported in 2011. The same year in the United States, a nation of 300 million, 83,425 rapes were reported. In the United States, every 6.2 minutes a woman is raped." Whoops! So that means you shouldn't set foot in the US too!!! And if you are already staying in the US pack your bags and move to let's see... How about Saudi Arabia? The reported cases are way lesser than US or India so it should be safe right?
- stan_rogers 10y ago
  The obvious keyword here being reported. Not that I'm necessarily agreeing with the GP; it's just that rape/sexual assault is something that is generally under-reported for various reasons, including shame, fear of reprisal, futility, and so on. That makes any statistics relying on reported rape essentially meaningless when talking about "rape culture", since reports are more likely the less culturally acceptable something is.

HemanHeartYou 10y ago

i get it, its not just the lack of enforced road laws, it's the lack of action of the bystanders honestly though how many of those bystanders would be able to stop someone from dying, i don't think that knowledge is widely known in any culture.

titomc 10y ago

Kerala [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala] , a small southern state in India known for its high literacy rate in India [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Kerala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Kerala] has a highly efficient emergency service on #108.[http://www.arogyakeralam.gov.in/index.php/special-initiaves/kemp http://www.arogyakeralam.gov.in/index.php/special-initiaves/...] I often hear news of this service being extremely efficient and the reports of bystanders not helping accident victims are rare from that state. This has to do something with the literacy rate as well as an efficient emergency service. Most of the cases of "no one helps you in India" cannot be generalized is my opinion.

varchar 10y ago

My family has lived in South India for many decades. India's infrastructure and emergency response in not very good although it has improved over the years. One thing I have observed is - it is the bystanders, the common man who rushe to the aid of victims in case of disasters - accidents, train derailment, floods, earthquakes. I could give you dozens of examples gathered from newspapers and from first hand experiences of kith and kin. People just jump in and start helping in such situations. People help each other especially when the emergency response is not reliable or immediately available. If your car slid into a ditch in rural Minnesota, passing cars will come to your aid. Where as in New York City, people may just drive by knowing that you will get a tow truck. This is the issue with reports like this - they pick one or two such statistically rare case and write a report it, opening the door wide to generalization especially on a globally popular news site. For every such incident, I'm sure there are tens of thousands incidents where people help, which never get reported.

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Alterlife 10y ago
To be fair, all the cases that you mentioned are those where where the police and the system do not look for someone to blame. The article doesn't disagree with you: > what safety campaigner Piyush Tewari saw wasn't a lack of compassion but an entire system stacked against helping road victims. ... > He contrasts the reluctance of passers-by to help victims of road accidents with their response to train crashes or bombs blasts. In these cases, he says, "before the police or media arrives everybody's been moved to hospital". There's also very important information in the article about new guidelines published by the supreme court of India to protect good samaritans.
- pjlegato 10y ago
  It also says the new Supreme Court orders (not guidelines) are being widely ignored, and so they are now running a state-by-state campaign to get laws passed that match the orders.
10y ago

abraham_s 10y ago

1) This is highly dependent on the place. In rural areas or smaller towns, there is high probability that someone will take you to the hospital. 2) There is no equivalent of 911 in India. You can call the police but they usually don't have ambulances. Most cases you will have to take the injured in a private vehicle to the hospital. 3) Harassment by police is a real thing in many places. They will suspect you of being involved in the accident. At least in my state (Kerala) there has been conscious effort to resolve this and seems to be working. 4) There is government hospitals who will treat you, no questions asked. But these are not present everywhere, and many don't have adequate resources (Operation theaters, Intensive Care Units etc) in many of these. So there is a chance that you will have to travel to bigger hospital to get appropriate care. Anecdote. Few years back , I was driving to my home when police flagged me down and asked me to take a lady injured (she was pillion-riding on a two wheeler) to the hospital. Took then to fairly large government hospital (which is also a medical college). The attending doctor asked me whether I was involved in the accident and the told me I can leave. I informed the relatives of the injured (got numbers from her companion) and left.

Loughla 10y ago
Real naive question time, sorry ahead of time - are the police as corrupt as they're portrayed to be in western media? Bribes requested constantly, that sort of thing?
- livus 10y ago
  On average yes. There's massive corruption. Source - I live here
- jsudhams 10y ago
  If you have done mistake and need to escape yes bribe is relevant or you want something to happen faster again yes otherwise mostly if you are not in hurry or did not do anything wrong mostly need not pay anything. SOme police may still ask you to buy him a coffee or 50 to 500 rupees depending on ur urgency and his tightness
- abraham_s 10y ago

tmalsburg2 10y ago

When I visited India a couple of years ago, we also observed this indifference towards victims of accidents. Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in Christian cultures. I don't know whether this is correct and even if it's correct it would of course not negate the reasons discussed in the article. It may rather be an additional factor. Would be interesting to hear an Indian person's view on that.

shripadk 10y ago
> Someone noticed that we were puzzled by this a told us that this is due to Indian culture. First, if someone is seriously hurt or killed that's this person's (perhaps deserved) fate. As an Indian I can tell you that that viewpoint is incorrect. Culture is the last thing that would come in between a good-samaritan and a person in need. > Second, helping others may not be as much a moral imperative as it is in a Christian culture Are you implying that Christians don't exist in India? If they do, then why are Christian Indians not coming to the rescue of those who met with an accident? This is a completely incorrect take on the situation. Mixing religion with a social issue is dangerous. Indian culture is good enough that we can accommodate any culture and have been doing so for centuries. To say that we do not have moral fiber is an insult. If that was the case why is it that when there is a terror attack or a natural tragedy in India people help in huge numbers? See the number of people out there to help in the recent Kolkatta Flyover accident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XmvROEYYps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XmvROEYYps So why do you think that Indians are more than willing to help when there is a natural tragedy / terror attack but not when a single person/family meets with an accident?
- tmalsburg2 10y ago
  I appreciate the response but you completely misinterpreted my comment. I did not say or imply that there are no Christians in India, and I did not say or imply that every Christian would rush to help while every non-Christian would be indifferent. I also didn't imply that Indian culture(s) are somehow inferior to western culture(s). I just related what one person in India told me and asked whether Indians think it's correct. I don't see how this insults anyone.

ehmuidifici 10y ago

I have a friend who lived in India and one of things he got impressed here in Brazil was how helpful we are, specially in these situations. Which is weird because as someone said before, I could not sit and watch someone suffering in front of me without attempting to assist too. But if you're inserted into a culture that says "don't be a good samaritan unless you want to be sued for it", you have to think twice.

thuruv 10y ago

There are not many reasons except the nightmare of getting their time wasted by Police officers (Along with a gift of being treated like a accused) only turns the bystanders heart stoned.

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SixSigma 10y ago

Whoever is around when the cops arrive often gets arrested. If you find a body in India, you run the other way. If you take an injured person to hospital you get a bill.