16 ms·

Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

250 points by uptown 10y ago

tzz 10y ago
This technique is also used by debt collectors. They sue and most often people ignore a court action. This causes a default judgment against you. This will give them a power to garnish your wages, place lien against your property and even freeze your bank account.
ytNumbers 10y ago
This article has persuaded me to never sell anything on Craigslist. Okay, the odds of running into a troll are tiny, but for a few bucks, it's just not worth the risk. Maybe Craigslist and similar sites need to start offering some kind of free insurance policy against trolls.
- Negative1 10y ago
  You should also never walk on a sidewalk, for fear of bumping into someone who trips and falls and sues you for personal negligence. You may be safe if you insure for this, though. Ask your Attorney.
  - sharemywin 10y ago
    wonder if a general liability policy would cover this sort of thing although they would probably just settle. of course they might show up with an army of lawyers.
    - Declanomous 10y ago
      An umbrella policy for general liability seems like it could be really useful. They typically cover rather large sums of money, in excess of one million dollars, and they aren't terribly expensive. I can imagine someone suing over a misunderstanding because of an X/Y problem. Person A asks a really obtuse programming question, Person B answers it literally, and then Person A goes on to use Person B's answer to build a nuclear reactor controlled by a raspi. Person B then gets sued by Person A when it melts down. Obviously that is a bit of an exaggeration, but it isn't hard to imagine a point in the future where programmers will be held to the same standards as certified professionals such as lawyers, doctors, and engineers. While it's really unlikely any particular programmer will be sued over advice they gave online, it would really horrible to be the person that someone chose to make an example of.
      - ryandrake 10y ago
        Navigating into off-topic waters: Where would one go about obtaining such an "umbrella" policy? Just call up the same company that you buy your car insurance from? How do they price this? Do they probe your life to see how risky you are ("ooh, you have a tile floor which is easier to slip and fall on, that'll be $X extra per month!)
        ryan-c 10y ago
        Most insurance companies offer them. You will have to raise the liability limits on your car insurance to the maximums if you have a car. I don't think they do any sort of risk assessment specifically for the umbrella policy.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - sokoloff 10y ago
        Most personal umbrella policies exclude professional, business property, or business liability. At least mine does.
    - jkot 10y ago
      In this case it would not help. He got sued and did not cooperate with court, insurance would not cover that.
- giarc 10y ago
  Just use a burner email and never give them your name. Meet in a public place and there's no tracing the item back to you. I imagine if you responded with mycraigslistemail@gmail.com and asked to meet in a public place, if you did happen to come upon a troll, they would stop the deal.
  - BuckRogers 10y ago
    I've always done my Craigslist sales that way, sold a number of cellphones at the corner station. Then tried to sell an AppleTV but they wanted to come to my house to make sure it worked. No random Craigslist clown is coming into the house where my wife sleeps, even if I escorted them in with a gun to their head because they could scope it out and come back later. I said I'd record a video of it working and send that over. No more replies. :)
    - wagglycocks 10y ago
      I admire your cautiousness. You certainly are a strong male and will surely be rewarded with offspring for being such a gallant mate.
      - dang 10y ago
        We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com. We're happy to unban people when there's reason to believe that they'll only post civil and substantive comments in the future.
        wagglycocks 10y ago
        ?
    - j2bax 10y ago
      This is easy with smaller items, but what if you wanted to sell a couch or a treadmill? In the past I thought it would be nice if there was a sort of consignment style store where people could park their Craigslist goods for people to come look at. I think this might go against Craigslists terms of service though... I am very apprehensive to have strangers over to my house, but I also don't know of a better way to sell these types of items without owning a large truck.
GoldenMonkey 10y ago
Would be nice to have a 'loser pays' court system for civil trials. These kinds of trolls would go away quickly.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Yes, like most of the rest of the world. But the trial lawyers send tons of money to one of the parties, so our current legal system stays in place.
  - adventured 10y ago
    That's correct. The Republican party has been trying to pass a loser pays system since the early 1990s at least, when they included it in their so called "Contract with America." The fear mongering has been going on ever since: http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/01/civil-suits http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/01/civil-suits
    - vinay427 10y ago
      Relevant portion from the Wikipedia article on "Contract with America." > An act to institute "Loser pays" laws (H.R.988, passed 232-193, March 7, 1995), limits on punitive damages and weakening of product-liability laws to prevent what the bill considered frivolous litigation (H.R.956, passed 265-161, March 10, 1995; passed Senate 61-37, May 11, 1995, vetoed by President Clinton [2]). Another tort reform bill, the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act was enacted in 1995 when Congress overrode a veto by Clinton.
    - takno 10y ago
      I recall an 8 year stretch during that period when the Republican party held the presidency, and longer periods when they have controlled the house. It doesn't seem to be an especially high priority for them.
      - strictnein 10y ago
        The blocker was always the Senate when Republican presidents were in power.
strictnein 10y ago
On a unrelated note: every time I read an article on USA Today's website it magically disappears and then it takes me a minute to realize that the entire thing was in a modal and clicking in the blank space on the right or left makes the modal go away. What an atrocious user experience.
- brandon272 10y ago
  Happens to me 9 times out of 10 when reading an article on that site!
- kej 10y ago
  And not just USA Today; the same thing happens on every other Gannett-owned site, which includes lots of local newspapers and TV stations.
- Washuu 10y ago
  Blocking Javascript on those new sites that do this fixes the issue and makes the experience much better overall.
vinhboy 10y ago
> Special Judge J. Jeffrey Edens issued a ruling. He awarded Zavodnik a judgment of $30,044.07 for breach of contract. Holy cow. This guy needs to be fired immediately. That is beyond gross negligence.
- SilasX 10y ago
  Depends: are judges supposed to spot-check claims for whether they're reasonable? Or do they leave that entirely as "the defense's job"? Remember, these were default judgments.
  - BuckRogers 10y ago
    Yup, sounds like a $40 default judgement to me. I always thought it would be great to be a judge, but I'm far from jumping through all those hoops. If I were one, I'd grant exact, verifiable damages in cases like this. It would have to be a civil case over child molestation, assault, murder or rape to get me to award funny money. In those relatively extreme cases involving heinous crimes, I'd be sure to ruin the life of the perp.
  - boznz 10y ago
    "are judges supposed to spot-check claims for whether they're reasonable?" - duhh Yes.
- vinay427 10y ago
  To be clear, he ran unopposed in 2012 to win his seat on the circuit court. I don't think he can be "fired," but rather "opposed in the next election so he loses his seat." https://ballotpedia.org/Indiana_judicial_elections,_2012_-_Circuit_Courts#Boone_County https://ballotpedia.org/Indiana_judicial_elections,_2012_-_C...
  - panglott 10y ago
    This is the problem with these small, nonpartisan offices. Virtually nobody votes in these elections because very few people can make an informed decision, and those informed few have incentives not to endorse/oppose. If the elections are partisan, voters have more information, but elections will become politicized on abortion/social issues (whether or not the judge can rule on such matters). Even in cases of judicial shenanigans, voters choose based on name recognition and advertising, and the incumbent's advantage is enormous, they run unopposed. I am strongly pro-voting, but voting for dogcatchers and low-level judges is really bad.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
He threw away the printer, so any judge should throw away his case.
- dlhavema 10y ago
  i totally laughed out loud when i read that line, how would he have any evidence for further cases? i guess he did though...
  - mcherm 10y ago
    Nope, he had no further evidence in the subsequent cases. The problem is that, legally, Doug Costello (the victim who sold the printer) admitted that he owed the money. The system is set up so that if one party doesn't even show up, they are assumed to have agreed with everything the other party says. They HAVE to have some kind of a rule like this or people would just not show up and then be immune lawsuits. The law DOES say that you must notify them personally so they know about the lawsuit and the court date -- that is normally done by personally handing them the papers, but sometimes it can be done other ways like mailing them. In this case Gersh Zavodnik (the asshole who bought the printer) swears he mailed it (although Doug claims he never received it) so that counts. The problem here is that the judge believed he didn't have the authority to exercise judgement and rule that this was an abuse of the system. Fortunately, the appeals court DID think the law allowed judges to exercise that judgement, and they did so.
    - kelnos 10y ago
      They HAVE to have some kind of a rule like this or people would just not show up and then be immune lawsuits. Not really. That's the easy way to do it, but the compromise would be that if the defendant doesn't show up, the plaintiff gets to present their evidence and argue their case, and the judge decides based on that. Under these rules, in this case, if Zavodnik had shown up, and Costello hadn't, Zavodnik would present the zero evidence he had, and the judge should have thrown it out.
      - 10y ago
MarlonPro 10y ago
I remember what a lawyer said in a case that I served as juror, "the US justice system is not perfect but it's the best justice system in the world."
- danharaj 10y ago
  My friends who have sat on juries and grand juries would gag at that thought. The way criminal trials work for the poor is a sham.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    The way criminal trials work for the poor is a sham. That might be true, but that does not mean that the system referenced isn't the best we've got at the moment.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  Reflexively saying "The US has the best everything in the world" is what will bring it down eventually. There are plenty of areas the US is way behind.
  - ewindisch 10y ago
    It's like when I applied for a mortgage back in 2007 and the mortgage people told me incredibly silly things, like, "take a balloon mortgage and get a bigger house, real estate always goes up!". Real estate was considered too big to fail and too certain to go wrong. I was smart enough to realize how stupid that was. Just not savvy enough to draw the line to seeing that I should short the market...
- lb1lf 10y ago
  As a former colleague of mine was fond of saying: "The United States offers the best justice system money can buy."
chasing 10y ago
If I'm reading correctly, the key bit is: ----- Because Costello did not respond to all three requests for admissions within 30 days of receiving them, and did not ask for an extension of time, as required by Indiana trial rules, Costello admitted to the liabilities and damages by default. He also did not appear at a July 2013 hearing, according to court records. Costello said he never received the requests for admissions and was not notified of the hearing. ----- If Costello just ignored these requests for some reason, maybe thinking they'd go away or whatever, that this is kind of on him. If, though, Zavodnik has figured out a way to serve people requests without them actually knowing about it... Well, that seems like a much larger legal loophole that needs closing. But without digging into this, the whole article falls apart. If someone sues you and you don't respond, you risk a default judgment against you.
- baldfat 10y ago
  Default in court is just broken. Facts matter more then did someone show up. This is just broken.
  - wl 10y ago
    If you can avoid adverse judgements by just not showing up for court, you incentivize people to not show up. That's not any more fair. There has to be something to lose for not showing up and default is what the legal system has chosen.
    - jimktrains2 10y ago
      What about simply being held in contempt instead of being found guilty?
      - jeffmould 10y ago
        This is actually an option in some courts if a plaintiff asks. I had a friend in Florida who owed a credit card bill the card company sued him. He missed the court date, his wife was in the hospital, and a warrant was issued by the judge for contempt of court. About a month later he got pulled over for speeding and was arrested on the spot. He had to post a bail that was released when he attended the new court date for the original claim. Ironically, he ended up winning the entire case on a statute of limitations technicality.
fiatmoney 10y ago
There's no good reason not to be relatively anonymous when buying or selling on craigslist.
- jjnoakes 10y ago
  When money changes hands, short of using something like cash, how does John Doe remain anonymous? I assume once the matter is in front of a court it is only a matter of time before your identity is readily available. Some form of obfuscating one's name and/or address may raise the bar a bit, but I don't see how this is a solution to the problem of malicious litigation for selling something on craig's list.
  - jkaunisv1 10y ago
    Short of using something like cash...for buying something off Craigslist? What else would you use? Why do you make it sound so difficult to use the most easily accessible form of currency around? Joe Craigslist isn't going to have a debit/credit machine for me to pay on. I'm not writing him a personal cheque. Use a burner email, don't give names, meet in a public place..how would you track somebody down like that?
    - jjnoakes 10y ago
      Because buying something online might mean the item has to be shipped? Since buyer and seller may not be able to meet up for some reason? Mailing cash seems like a terrible idea. Do you think we should find a cash escrow service too?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - wl 10y ago
        Craigslist is for in person deals. Craigslist itself warns against shipping items[1]. [1] http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams
jimrandomh 10y ago
Under a sensible legal system, this is a crime. It's called "barratry": filing baseless lawsuits in order to harass or to extract a settlement. In most US jurisdictions, however, it's not legally recognized as a crime, and so it's widespread. From a defendant's point of view, however, it's basically equivalent to getting mugged.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  Which "sensible legal system[s]" are these, and which ones punish plaintiffs for it rather than lawyers? Edit: I originally said "punish defendants", but meant plaintiffs.
  - texuf 10y ago
    Or judges? I would want to sue the judge that awarded $30,000 for an allegedly broken printer. Edit: Found this article from Sep. 2014. [0] "The [Indiana] state high court, in an order issued Tuesday, called Zavodnik 'a prolific, abusive litigant' and put him on notice. In the unanimous ruling, the five justices warned the Ukraine-born U.S. citizen that he 'can expect any further abusive litigation practices ... to be met with appropriate sanctions and restrictions.'" 0: http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/10/01/enoughs-enough-indiana-supreme-court-tells-prolific-filer-lawsuits/16529893/ http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/10/01/enoughs-enough...
    - nickff 10y ago
      The problem is that it seems that the judge made the legally correct determination, and that the majority of judges understand that this type of suit is ridiculous, but they have no tools to stop it.
      - koolba 10y ago
        > The problem is that it seems that the judge made the legally correct determination, and that the majority of judges understand that this type of suit is ridiculous, but they have no tools to stop it. If they had the tools to stop it, and chose to use them based on their determination rather than the "rules" (no matter how nonsensical they be), we'd be throwing a fit about activist judges legislating from the bench. The separation of powers is there for a reason and it's not the judiciary that needs to solve this.
p3anoman 10y ago
Florida has a "vexatious litigant" law that allows a defendant to require a plaintiff to post a deposit with the court under certain circumstances (ostensibly to pay defendants court costs should the defendant prevail). I would bet this guy would qualify
vinceguidry 10y ago
Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  I dunno, man, as cathartic as that sounds, it reminds me of the old schoolyard bully tactic: pick on a kid until they punch you, then show the teacher your bloody nose.
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    When I was in high school, a big kid decided to use me as a verbal punching bag off and on for like two years. It didn't particularly bug me, he didn't do it often enough to cause me to want to retaliate, I'd endured worse in middle school, but it was annoying. Junior year I decided to teach him a lesson. We were making presentations for science class and you know how they have the steps of the scientific method? Well, for the hypothesis I spontaneously opted to, out of nowhere, rip him a new one in front of the whole class, tying the experiment to the fact that he was a giant fat-ass. He jumped up and came for me, the class held him back, I got a tongue lashing from the teacher, and he never bugged me again. We even worked together on a shop project later on that year. Some people are taught respect by their parents, others have to have it taught to them by strangers. I'm pretty good at that when I need to be.
    - erichocean 10y ago
      I had a similar experience. In 7th grade, I was fairly small in size (almost 6'2" today) and a relatively larger kid used to come into my history class late most days. He'd pass by my desk, behind my chair, and "push it" each day. After school, I got similar verbal harassment from the same guy while with his friends while walking home. Long story short, I got sick of it and one day in History class, grabbed the sides of my chair and waited for him to push it as he walked by. When he did, I sprang up rapidly while holding my chair and pushed back, flipping him over the desk behind me. Huge disruption to the class, etc. Teacher looked over, made no expression, and continued teaching the class. Never heard a peep from the guy after school the rest of the year, and that was the last time he touched my chair. :)
yttrbug900 10y ago
If Trump was president this guy would never have gotten into this country in the first place.
- throwaway420 10y ago
  While there are certain things about Trump that are worth admiring, one character flaw of his is that he does seem to routinely file a lot of petty lawsuits himself.
  - yttrbug900 10y ago
    Which is completely irrelevant to the point that this worthless-to-society A-hole gets let into this country and then completely exploits our legal system while providing nothing of value to anybody. This is exactly the type of scum that needs to be kept out of here.
    - dang 10y ago
      We've banned this account. Please don't make HN worse by creating accounts to violate the site rules with. Instead, find a civil, substantive way to make your point, or just don't comment.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dbot 10y ago
Two thoughts: 1. The plaintiff exploited a loophole in the Indiana small claims rule regarding "res judicata," which normally acts to prevent a party from re-litigating a decided matter. [The rule states](http://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/small_claims/ http://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/small_claims/), "A judgment shall be res judicata only as to the amount involved in the particular action and shall not be considered an adjudication of any fact at issue in any other action or court. So the plaintiff lost a $6,000 claim in small claims, but somehow he was not barred from bringing claims in superior court on the same set of facts for a larger amount of money. I think the judge should have seen through this... 2. Requests for admission are the most abused discovery tools in modern litigation. There is no limit on the number of requests for admission. They are designed to streamline and focus areas of dispute, but hyperactive litigants are always trying to sneak case-killer facts into them to get "admitted" either by accident or failure to respond, the latter of which happened here.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  My guess, and i'm honestly a bit lazy to find the filings, is that he changed the claims slightly.
  - will_brown 10y ago
    I think the article says he added additional claims to the second lawsuit, but they all flow from the same set of facts/transaction, it should be Res Judicata. Odds are Defendant can Vacate the Judgment on: 1. Improper Service of Process; and/or 2. Defenses on the Merits, including, Res Judicata. Assuming the Defendant can establish Plaintiff knowingly obtained default based on improper service, and show Plaintiff knew or should have known the claims weren't supported by fact or law the Defense should recoup their fees on the Motion to Vacate Default Judgment through sanctions.
mamon 10y ago
Stupid question: if the printer was worth $40 ($75 with shipping) how come the damages are worth $30k ? Even if Costello was right I cannot see how "damages" suffered could exceed those 75 dollars by such a huge margin. In Europe even if he had won the case he would have been awarded $75 in damages, and probably another $50 in legal costs, that's all. Not possible to win $30k out of thin air. But the difference is that in Europe "damages" mean "money lost", not "feelings hurt".
- DannyBee 10y ago
  "Stupid question: if the printer was worth $40 ($75 with shipping) how come the damages are worth $30k" That part is about the admissions, where the plaintiff requested the defendant admit damages were 30k (or whatever), and anything not responded to is considered admitted.
  - Sacho 10y ago
    What legitimate use does that request serve?
    - scott_s 10y ago
      None, which the most recent judge recognized.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      It was originally meant to allow undisputed facts to enter the record, etc. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_admissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_admissions You can look at the history of the FRCP to see the changes over the years in how harsh/not harsh this rule has been.
- mikeash 10y ago
  An adversarial system depends on the involvement of both sides. The defendant here failed to respond to a set of allegations, which made him lose by default.
mjolk 10y ago
>The printer's buyer was Gersh Zavodnik, a 54-year-old Indianapolis man known to many in the legal community as a frequent lawsuit filer who also represents himself in court. The Indiana Supreme Court said the "prolific, abusive litigant" has brought dozens of lawsuits against individuals and businesses, often asking for astronomical damages...Zavodnik, a native of Ukraine who moved to the United States in 1987 under a grant of political asylum, sued Costello, accusing him of falsely advertising a malfunctioning printer with missing parts, and pocketing Zavodnik's money This is absolutely ridiculous. Is anyone familiar with the legal system enough to know how we can help out his current victim or (legally) bring an end to this smug conman's thievery? Could public opinion or data that tells a compelling story help? 'Special Judge J. Jeffrey Edens' is damage in the legal process that I'm sure can be routed around and this story is ripe for the media.
- will_brown 10y ago
  Not that it will help this particular individual at this time, unfortunately, but check out this Ask HN I posted yesterday about crowdfunding lawsuits, still on Ask front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842051
- thisisdave 10y ago
  >bring an end to this smug conman's thievery If the courts declare him a "vexatious litigant", he'd have a much harder time filing these suits.
busterarm 10y ago
Going to be a bit flippant here, but if I sold somebody a $40 used printer and they mugged me using the courts for $30,000, I would seriously consider murder to be a viable option towards resolution. Good on this guy for keeping his wits about him through all this. Guy probably needs a long, relaxing vacation.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Not flippant. People like this should be lit on fire in the public square to warn against others following their path.
  - dang 10y ago
    > People like this should be lit on fire Please don't comment like this here.
- knodi123 10y ago
  That is a very legitimate and real risk that zavodnik should take into account. If he got a judgment of $600,000 against me, causing me to lose my business and my home... I'd seriously be weighing pros and cons of sacrificing my freedom in order to rid the earth of this scum.
  - kristopolous 10y ago
    I'm sure many people get away with perfect murders every day. People dying due to a malfunctioning car or some other kind of unlucky event ... I bet there's a lot of clever and quiet murder that goes on in the world with a plausible deniability, alibis and everything else set up. The murderer carefully covers up evidence of sabotage or malice and the victim succumbs. People think "oh my, what a tragic accident" and regretfully move on in life - never being the wiser. Probably every day.
    - Mandatum 10y ago
      I find your comment in poor taste, but I'll bite because it's kind of interesting. I'd recommend watching The Perfect Murder[0] documentary, although what they detail isn't exactly practical. Less than 15% of murder is committed by strangers [1]. I think if you aren't caught directly after the initial act, you don't have any relation to the victim and no DNA is left, your chances of "getting away" is relatively high. Your comments on a "malfunctioning car" are misguided, given that any fatal automobile accident, provided the reason the driver "crashed" is not apparent, will result in someone looking at the car to see WHY it malfunctioned. A cut brake line or similar would obviously scream foul play. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEBb4LhQdU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEBb4LhQdU [1] https://top5ofanything.com/list/8a1bf3d1/Murders-by-Relationship-to-the-Victim-in-the-United-States https://top5ofanything.com/list/8a1bf3d1/Murders-by-Relation...
cft 10y ago
California for example [1] has a list of vexatious litigants [2]. 1. http://www.courts.ca.gov/12272.htm http://www.courts.ca.gov/12272.htm 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation
5ilv3r 10y ago
Send him home.
LinuxBender 10y ago
Is this not a risky precedent to have in a legal system? If John Q. Public know they will have to jump through legal hoops any time someone makes a claim against them, will this not encourage some folks to take the law into their own hands, thus encouraging actual damages vs. claimed?
CIPHERSTONE 10y ago
It might be easier to state that you are selling your time and not the item, the item is a free gift you are giving to the person that you agree to meet with for your time. "Oh you like this printer? Well the printer is free, but if you want it, you have to pay me $40 for 1 second of my time." You meet, say hello. Collect $40. Give the free printer.
- knodi123 10y ago
  You might be surprised at how judges react to that sort of sophomoric cleverness. A better solution is to include a simple waiver form such as you've probably signed a thousand times saying "seller is not responsible for any damages blah blah blah". You can find generic versions of those online.
  - CIPHERSTONE 10y ago
    >sophomoric cleverness True but my way works for craigslist sales and my gigolo side business, so I've got that going for me..
- pavalercci 10y ago
  I like this idea and tried to upvote, but could not.
zellyn 10y ago
Anyone have any idea why so many judges recused themselves?
hackaflocka 10y ago
The problem is a system where pieces of paper are sent by mail (often with addresses mis-spelled), and the supposed recipient is in trouble for not responding. There needs to be a better system.
- knodi123 10y ago
  There is, it's called registered mail. And there's a better solution than that, too- it's called a process server. All of them are vulnerable to corrupt middle-men, but the article doesn't really say what method was used to contact the defendant, so there's really nothing to speculate about.
hackbinary 10y ago
Wow,just wow! Here in Scotland, that man's behaviour would be called vexatious. Vexatious behaviour is not tolerated in the courts here; most of the time.
bluedevil2k 10y ago
It doesn't make any mention about the plantiff's ability to actually collect the damages. In Texas at least, it's extremely difficult to actually collect damages, which make small claims court somewhat meaningless.
- choward 10y ago
  It also means the courts aren't being utilized as much, so there is time to handle the cases for patent trolls.
chdir 10y ago
Does it help to have a generic boilerplate contract (jurisdiction-wise) signed by both buyer & seller for such transactions, where the buyer would sign that they have inspected the item to their knowledge and assume full responsibility of the purchase, and that they won't hold the seller responsible for blah blah. At the same time, the seller assumes that they have given up ownership of the said item for whatever money they've received in this transaction ?
- Spooky23 10y ago
  I rarely use Craigslist, as it's a cesspool of fraud. But when I sell used stuff online, I lost the terms as "As is" and don't make representations as to working condition.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
sandworm101 10y ago
My civpro prof loved Rule11 and told us many tales of nefarious attorneys being humiliated by judges as punishment for this sort of behavior. It can happen even to the pro se as a party. https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11 https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11
why-el 10y ago
> Because Costello did not respond to all three requests for admissions within 30 days of receiving them, and did not ask for an extension of time, as required by Indiana trial rules, Costello admitted to the liabilities and damages by default This is awkwardly similar to the other John Oliver story in today's HN, in which debt buyers exploit this fact to have as many people admitting liabilities as possible.
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
Not that this isn't absurd but CL is for shit you can't ship. eBay is for stuff you can. CL acts purely as a platform to list classified ads and leaves dispute resolution up to the users. That's why this happened. Add this to the other 9000 reasons you only do business via CL face to face and with cash. Move along, nothing to see here folks.
- chillacy 10y ago
  Would ebay's contracts or customer support prevent this situation? They have arbitration on-site, but what stops a buyer from going to the legal system?
ausjke 10y ago
This guy should be packed and shipped back if there is any sanity in the legal system here at all. What a loser who ruins other peoples' life for his ridiculous greed.
- chillacy 10y ago
  I wonder if he has a (destructive) mental illness.. it just seems too far-fetched for him to believe that Costello was conspiring with the judge against him and develop what seems to be a persecution complex.
rdlecler1 10y ago
Where is Peter Theil when you need him! Getting your legal team behind this could ameleorate some bad PR.
mlvljr 10y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sALru9IJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sALru9IJk

250 points by uptown 10y ago

tzz 10y ago

This technique is also used by debt collectors. They sue and most often people ignore a court action. This causes a default judgment against you. This will give them a power to garnish your wages, place lien against your property and even freeze your bank account.

ytNumbers 10y ago

This article has persuaded me to never sell anything on Craigslist. Okay, the odds of running into a troll are tiny, but for a few bucks, it's just not worth the risk. Maybe Craigslist and similar sites need to start offering some kind of free insurance policy against trolls.

Negative1 10y ago
You should also never walk on a sidewalk, for fear of bumping into someone who trips and falls and sues you for personal negligence. You may be safe if you insure for this, though. Ask your Attorney.
- sharemywin 10y ago
  wonder if a general liability policy would cover this sort of thing although they would probably just settle. of course they might show up with an army of lawyers.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    An umbrella policy for general liability seems like it could be really useful. They typically cover rather large sums of money, in excess of one million dollars, and they aren't terribly expensive. I can imagine someone suing over a misunderstanding because of an X/Y problem. Person A asks a really obtuse programming question, Person B answers it literally, and then Person A goes on to use Person B's answer to build a nuclear reactor controlled by a raspi. Person B then gets sued by Person A when it melts down. Obviously that is a bit of an exaggeration, but it isn't hard to imagine a point in the future where programmers will be held to the same standards as certified professionals such as lawyers, doctors, and engineers. While it's really unlikely any particular programmer will be sued over advice they gave online, it would really horrible to be the person that someone chose to make an example of.
    - ryandrake 10y ago
      Navigating into off-topic waters: Where would one go about obtaining such an "umbrella" policy? Just call up the same company that you buy your car insurance from? How do they price this? Do they probe your life to see how risky you are ("ooh, you have a tile floor which is easier to slip and fall on, that'll be $X extra per month!)
      - ryan-c 10y ago
        Most insurance companies offer them. You will have to raise the liability limits on your car insurance to the maximums if you have a car. I don't think they do any sort of risk assessment specifically for the umbrella policy.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Most personal umbrella policies exclude professional, business property, or business liability. At least mine does.
  - jkot 10y ago
    In this case it would not help. He got sued and did not cooperate with court, insurance would not cover that.
giarc 10y ago
Just use a burner email and never give them your name. Meet in a public place and there's no tracing the item back to you. I imagine if you responded with mycraigslistemail@gmail.com and asked to meet in a public place, if you did happen to come upon a troll, they would stop the deal.
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  I've always done my Craigslist sales that way, sold a number of cellphones at the corner station. Then tried to sell an AppleTV but they wanted to come to my house to make sure it worked. No random Craigslist clown is coming into the house where my wife sleeps, even if I escorted them in with a gun to their head because they could scope it out and come back later. I said I'd record a video of it working and send that over. No more replies. :)
  - wagglycocks 10y ago
    I admire your cautiousness. You certainly are a strong male and will surely be rewarded with offspring for being such a gallant mate.
    - dang 10y ago
      We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com. We're happy to unban people when there's reason to believe that they'll only post civil and substantive comments in the future.
      - wagglycocks 10y ago
        ?
  - j2bax 10y ago
    This is easy with smaller items, but what if you wanted to sell a couch or a treadmill? In the past I thought it would be nice if there was a sort of consignment style store where people could park their Craigslist goods for people to come look at. I think this might go against Craigslists terms of service though... I am very apprehensive to have strangers over to my house, but I also don't know of a better way to sell these types of items without owning a large truck.

GoldenMonkey 10y ago

Would be nice to have a 'loser pays' court system for civil trials. These kinds of trolls would go away quickly.

strictnein 10y ago
Yes, like most of the rest of the world. But the trial lawyers send tons of money to one of the parties, so our current legal system stays in place.
- adventured 10y ago
  That's correct. The Republican party has been trying to pass a loser pays system since the early 1990s at least, when they included it in their so called "Contract with America." The fear mongering has been going on ever since: http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/01/civil-suits http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/01/civil-suits
  - vinay427 10y ago
    Relevant portion from the Wikipedia article on "Contract with America." > An act to institute "Loser pays" laws (H.R.988, passed 232-193, March 7, 1995), limits on punitive damages and weakening of product-liability laws to prevent what the bill considered frivolous litigation (H.R.956, passed 265-161, March 10, 1995; passed Senate 61-37, May 11, 1995, vetoed by President Clinton [2]). Another tort reform bill, the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act was enacted in 1995 when Congress overrode a veto by Clinton.
  - takno 10y ago
    I recall an 8 year stretch during that period when the Republican party held the presidency, and longer periods when they have controlled the house. It doesn't seem to be an especially high priority for them.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      The blocker was always the Senate when Republican presidents were in power.

strictnein 10y ago

On a unrelated note: every time I read an article on USA Today's website it magically disappears and then it takes me a minute to realize that the entire thing was in a modal and clicking in the blank space on the right or left makes the modal go away. What an atrocious user experience.

brandon272 10y ago
Happens to me 9 times out of 10 when reading an article on that site!
kej 10y ago
And not just USA Today; the same thing happens on every other Gannett-owned site, which includes lots of local newspapers and TV stations.
Washuu 10y ago
Blocking Javascript on those new sites that do this fixes the issue and makes the experience much better overall.

vinhboy 10y ago

> Special Judge J. Jeffrey Edens issued a ruling. He awarded Zavodnik a judgment of $30,044.07 for breach of contract. Holy cow. This guy needs to be fired immediately. That is beyond gross negligence.

SilasX 10y ago
Depends: are judges supposed to spot-check claims for whether they're reasonable? Or do they leave that entirely as "the defense's job"? Remember, these were default judgments.
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  Yup, sounds like a $40 default judgement to me. I always thought it would be great to be a judge, but I'm far from jumping through all those hoops. If I were one, I'd grant exact, verifiable damages in cases like this. It would have to be a civil case over child molestation, assault, murder or rape to get me to award funny money. In those relatively extreme cases involving heinous crimes, I'd be sure to ruin the life of the perp.
- boznz 10y ago
  "are judges supposed to spot-check claims for whether they're reasonable?" - duhh Yes.
vinay427 10y ago
To be clear, he ran unopposed in 2012 to win his seat on the circuit court. I don't think he can be "fired," but rather "opposed in the next election so he loses his seat." https://ballotpedia.org/Indiana_judicial_elections,_2012_-_Circuit_Courts#Boone_County https://ballotpedia.org/Indiana_judicial_elections,_2012_-_C...
- panglott 10y ago
  This is the problem with these small, nonpartisan offices. Virtually nobody votes in these elections because very few people can make an informed decision, and those informed few have incentives not to endorse/oppose. If the elections are partisan, voters have more information, but elections will become politicized on abortion/social issues (whether or not the judge can rule on such matters). Even in cases of judicial shenanigans, voters choose based on name recognition and advertising, and the incumbent's advantage is enormous, they run unopposed. I am strongly pro-voting, but voting for dogcatchers and low-level judges is really bad.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

He threw away the printer, so any judge should throw away his case.

dlhavema 10y ago
i totally laughed out loud when i read that line, how would he have any evidence for further cases? i guess he did though...
- mcherm 10y ago
  Nope, he had no further evidence in the subsequent cases. The problem is that, legally, Doug Costello (the victim who sold the printer) admitted that he owed the money. The system is set up so that if one party doesn't even show up, they are assumed to have agreed with everything the other party says. They HAVE to have some kind of a rule like this or people would just not show up and then be immune lawsuits. The law DOES say that you must notify them personally so they know about the lawsuit and the court date -- that is normally done by personally handing them the papers, but sometimes it can be done other ways like mailing them. In this case Gersh Zavodnik (the asshole who bought the printer) swears he mailed it (although Doug claims he never received it) so that counts. The problem here is that the judge believed he didn't have the authority to exercise judgement and rule that this was an abuse of the system. Fortunately, the appeals court DID think the law allowed judges to exercise that judgement, and they did so.
  - kelnos 10y ago
    They HAVE to have some kind of a rule like this or people would just not show up and then be immune lawsuits. Not really. That's the easy way to do it, but the compromise would be that if the defendant doesn't show up, the plaintiff gets to present their evidence and argue their case, and the judge decides based on that. Under these rules, in this case, if Zavodnik had shown up, and Costello hadn't, Zavodnik would present the zero evidence he had, and the judge should have thrown it out.
    - 10y ago

MarlonPro 10y ago

I remember what a lawyer said in a case that I served as juror, "the US justice system is not perfect but it's the best justice system in the world."

danharaj 10y ago
My friends who have sat on juries and grand juries would gag at that thought. The way criminal trials work for the poor is a sham.
- mikestew 10y ago
  The way criminal trials work for the poor is a sham. That might be true, but that does not mean that the system referenced isn't the best we've got at the moment.
maxxxxx 10y ago
Reflexively saying "The US has the best everything in the world" is what will bring it down eventually. There are plenty of areas the US is way behind.
- ewindisch 10y ago
  It's like when I applied for a mortgage back in 2007 and the mortgage people told me incredibly silly things, like, "take a balloon mortgage and get a bigger house, real estate always goes up!". Real estate was considered too big to fail and too certain to go wrong. I was smart enough to realize how stupid that was. Just not savvy enough to draw the line to seeing that I should short the market...
lb1lf 10y ago
As a former colleague of mine was fond of saying: "The United States offers the best justice system money can buy."

chasing 10y ago

If I'm reading correctly, the key bit is: ----- Because Costello did not respond to all three requests for admissions within 30 days of receiving them, and did not ask for an extension of time, as required by Indiana trial rules, Costello admitted to the liabilities and damages by default. He also did not appear at a July 2013 hearing, according to court records. Costello said he never received the requests for admissions and was not notified of the hearing. ----- If Costello just ignored these requests for some reason, maybe thinking they'd go away or whatever, that this is kind of on him. If, though, Zavodnik has figured out a way to serve people requests without them actually knowing about it... Well, that seems like a much larger legal loophole that needs closing. But without digging into this, the whole article falls apart. If someone sues you and you don't respond, you risk a default judgment against you.

baldfat 10y ago
Default in court is just broken. Facts matter more then did someone show up. This is just broken.
- wl 10y ago
  If you can avoid adverse judgements by just not showing up for court, you incentivize people to not show up. That's not any more fair. There has to be something to lose for not showing up and default is what the legal system has chosen.
  - jimktrains2 10y ago
    What about simply being held in contempt instead of being found guilty?
    - jeffmould 10y ago
      This is actually an option in some courts if a plaintiff asks. I had a friend in Florida who owed a credit card bill the card company sued him. He missed the court date, his wife was in the hospital, and a warrant was issued by the judge for contempt of court. About a month later he got pulled over for speeding and was arrested on the spot. He had to post a bail that was released when he attended the new court date for the original claim. Ironically, he ended up winning the entire case on a statute of limitations technicality.

fiatmoney 10y ago

There's no good reason not to be relatively anonymous when buying or selling on craigslist.

jjnoakes 10y ago
When money changes hands, short of using something like cash, how does John Doe remain anonymous? I assume once the matter is in front of a court it is only a matter of time before your identity is readily available. Some form of obfuscating one's name and/or address may raise the bar a bit, but I don't see how this is a solution to the problem of malicious litigation for selling something on craig's list.
- jkaunisv1 10y ago
  Short of using something like cash...for buying something off Craigslist? What else would you use? Why do you make it sound so difficult to use the most easily accessible form of currency around? Joe Craigslist isn't going to have a debit/credit machine for me to pay on. I'm not writing him a personal cheque. Use a burner email, don't give names, meet in a public place..how would you track somebody down like that?
  - jjnoakes 10y ago
    Because buying something online might mean the item has to be shipped? Since buyer and seller may not be able to meet up for some reason? Mailing cash seems like a terrible idea. Do you think we should find a cash escrow service too?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - wl 10y ago
      Craigslist is for in person deals. Craigslist itself warns against shipping items[1]. [1] http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams

jimrandomh 10y ago

Under a sensible legal system, this is a crime. It's called "barratry": filing baseless lawsuits in order to harass or to extract a settlement. In most US jurisdictions, however, it's not legally recognized as a crime, and so it's widespread. From a defendant's point of view, however, it's basically equivalent to getting mugged.

vonmoltke 10y ago
Which "sensible legal system[s]" are these, and which ones punish plaintiffs for it rather than lawyers? Edit: I originally said "punish defendants", but meant plaintiffs.
- texuf 10y ago
  Or judges? I would want to sue the judge that awarded $30,000 for an allegedly broken printer. Edit: Found this article from Sep. 2014. [0] "The [Indiana] state high court, in an order issued Tuesday, called Zavodnik 'a prolific, abusive litigant' and put him on notice. In the unanimous ruling, the five justices warned the Ukraine-born U.S. citizen that he 'can expect any further abusive litigation practices ... to be met with appropriate sanctions and restrictions.'" 0: http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/10/01/enoughs-enough-indiana-supreme-court-tells-prolific-filer-lawsuits/16529893/ http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/10/01/enoughs-enough...
  - nickff 10y ago
    The problem is that it seems that the judge made the legally correct determination, and that the majority of judges understand that this type of suit is ridiculous, but they have no tools to stop it.
    - koolba 10y ago
      > The problem is that it seems that the judge made the legally correct determination, and that the majority of judges understand that this type of suit is ridiculous, but they have no tools to stop it. If they had the tools to stop it, and chose to use them based on their determination rather than the "rules" (no matter how nonsensical they be), we'd be throwing a fit about activist judges legislating from the bench. The separation of powers is there for a reason and it's not the judiciary that needs to solve this.

p3anoman 10y ago

Florida has a "vexatious litigant" law that allows a defendant to require a plaintiff to post a deposit with the court under certain circumstances (ostensibly to pay defendants court costs should the defendant prevail). I would bet this guy would qualify

vinceguidry 10y ago

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I dunno, man, as cathartic as that sounds, it reminds me of the old schoolyard bully tactic: pick on a kid until they punch you, then show the teacher your bloody nose.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  When I was in high school, a big kid decided to use me as a verbal punching bag off and on for like two years. It didn't particularly bug me, he didn't do it often enough to cause me to want to retaliate, I'd endured worse in middle school, but it was annoying. Junior year I decided to teach him a lesson. We were making presentations for science class and you know how they have the steps of the scientific method? Well, for the hypothesis I spontaneously opted to, out of nowhere, rip him a new one in front of the whole class, tying the experiment to the fact that he was a giant fat-ass. He jumped up and came for me, the class held him back, I got a tongue lashing from the teacher, and he never bugged me again. We even worked together on a shop project later on that year. Some people are taught respect by their parents, others have to have it taught to them by strangers. I'm pretty good at that when I need to be.
  - erichocean 10y ago
    I had a similar experience. In 7th grade, I was fairly small in size (almost 6'2" today) and a relatively larger kid used to come into my history class late most days. He'd pass by my desk, behind my chair, and "push it" each day. After school, I got similar verbal harassment from the same guy while with his friends while walking home. Long story short, I got sick of it and one day in History class, grabbed the sides of my chair and waited for him to push it as he walked by. When he did, I sprang up rapidly while holding my chair and pushed back, flipping him over the desk behind me. Huge disruption to the class, etc. Teacher looked over, made no expression, and continued teaching the class. Never heard a peep from the guy after school the rest of the year, and that was the last time he touched my chair. :)

yttrbug900 10y ago

If Trump was president this guy would never have gotten into this country in the first place.

throwaway420 10y ago
While there are certain things about Trump that are worth admiring, one character flaw of his is that he does seem to routinely file a lot of petty lawsuits himself.
- yttrbug900 10y ago
  Which is completely irrelevant to the point that this worthless-to-society A-hole gets let into this country and then completely exploits our legal system while providing nothing of value to anybody. This is exactly the type of scum that needs to be kept out of here.
  - dang 10y ago
    We've banned this account. Please don't make HN worse by creating accounts to violate the site rules with. Instead, find a civil, substantive way to make your point, or just don't comment.
deleted 10y ago
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deleted 10y ago

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dbot 10y ago

Two thoughts: 1. The plaintiff exploited a loophole in the Indiana small claims rule regarding "res judicata," which normally acts to prevent a party from re-litigating a decided matter. [The rule states](http://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/small_claims/ http://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/small_claims/), "A judgment shall be res judicata only as to the amount involved in the particular action and shall not be considered an adjudication of any fact at issue in any other action or court. So the plaintiff lost a $6,000 claim in small claims, but somehow he was not barred from bringing claims in superior court on the same set of facts for a larger amount of money. I think the judge should have seen through this... 2. Requests for admission are the most abused discovery tools in modern litigation. There is no limit on the number of requests for admission. They are designed to streamline and focus areas of dispute, but hyperactive litigants are always trying to sneak case-killer facts into them to get "admitted" either by accident or failure to respond, the latter of which happened here.

DannyBee 10y ago
My guess, and i'm honestly a bit lazy to find the filings, is that he changed the claims slightly.
- will_brown 10y ago
  I think the article says he added additional claims to the second lawsuit, but they all flow from the same set of facts/transaction, it should be Res Judicata. Odds are Defendant can Vacate the Judgment on: 1. Improper Service of Process; and/or 2. Defenses on the Merits, including, Res Judicata. Assuming the Defendant can establish Plaintiff knowingly obtained default based on improper service, and show Plaintiff knew or should have known the claims weren't supported by fact or law the Defense should recoup their fees on the Motion to Vacate Default Judgment through sanctions.

mamon 10y ago

Stupid question: if the printer was worth $40 ($75 with shipping) how come the damages are worth $30k ? Even if Costello was right I cannot see how "damages" suffered could exceed those 75 dollars by such a huge margin. In Europe even if he had won the case he would have been awarded $75 in damages, and probably another $50 in legal costs, that's all. Not possible to win $30k out of thin air. But the difference is that in Europe "damages" mean "money lost", not "feelings hurt".

DannyBee 10y ago
"Stupid question: if the printer was worth $40 ($75 with shipping) how come the damages are worth $30k" That part is about the admissions, where the plaintiff requested the defendant admit damages were 30k (or whatever), and anything not responded to is considered admitted.
- Sacho 10y ago
  What legitimate use does that request serve?
  - scott_s 10y ago
    None, which the most recent judge recognized.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    It was originally meant to allow undisputed facts to enter the record, etc. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_admissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_admissions You can look at the history of the FRCP to see the changes over the years in how harsh/not harsh this rule has been.
mikeash 10y ago
An adversarial system depends on the involvement of both sides. The defendant here failed to respond to a set of allegations, which made him lose by default.

mjolk 10y ago

>The printer's buyer was Gersh Zavodnik, a 54-year-old Indianapolis man known to many in the legal community as a frequent lawsuit filer who also represents himself in court. The Indiana Supreme Court said the "prolific, abusive litigant" has brought dozens of lawsuits against individuals and businesses, often asking for astronomical damages...Zavodnik, a native of Ukraine who moved to the United States in 1987 under a grant of political asylum, sued Costello, accusing him of falsely advertising a malfunctioning printer with missing parts, and pocketing Zavodnik's money This is absolutely ridiculous. Is anyone familiar with the legal system enough to know how we can help out his current victim or (legally) bring an end to this smug conman's thievery? Could public opinion or data that tells a compelling story help? 'Special Judge J. Jeffrey Edens' is damage in the legal process that I'm sure can be routed around and this story is ripe for the media.

will_brown 10y ago
Not that it will help this particular individual at this time, unfortunately, but check out this Ask HN I posted yesterday about crowdfunding lawsuits, still on Ask front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842051
thisisdave 10y ago
>bring an end to this smug conman's thievery If the courts declare him a "vexatious litigant", he'd have a much harder time filing these suits.

busterarm 10y ago

Going to be a bit flippant here, but if I sold somebody a $40 used printer and they mugged me using the courts for $30,000, I would seriously consider murder to be a viable option towards resolution. Good on this guy for keeping his wits about him through all this. Guy probably needs a long, relaxing vacation.

strictnein 10y ago
Not flippant. People like this should be lit on fire in the public square to warn against others following their path.
- dang 10y ago
  > People like this should be lit on fire Please don't comment like this here.
knodi123 10y ago
That is a very legitimate and real risk that zavodnik should take into account. If he got a judgment of $600,000 against me, causing me to lose my business and my home... I'd seriously be weighing pros and cons of sacrificing my freedom in order to rid the earth of this scum.
- kristopolous 10y ago
  I'm sure many people get away with perfect murders every day. People dying due to a malfunctioning car or some other kind of unlucky event ... I bet there's a lot of clever and quiet murder that goes on in the world with a plausible deniability, alibis and everything else set up. The murderer carefully covers up evidence of sabotage or malice and the victim succumbs. People think "oh my, what a tragic accident" and regretfully move on in life - never being the wiser. Probably every day.
  - Mandatum 10y ago
    I find your comment in poor taste, but I'll bite because it's kind of interesting. I'd recommend watching The Perfect Murder[0] documentary, although what they detail isn't exactly practical. Less than 15% of murder is committed by strangers [1]. I think if you aren't caught directly after the initial act, you don't have any relation to the victim and no DNA is left, your chances of "getting away" is relatively high. Your comments on a "malfunctioning car" are misguided, given that any fatal automobile accident, provided the reason the driver "crashed" is not apparent, will result in someone looking at the car to see WHY it malfunctioned. A cut brake line or similar would obviously scream foul play. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEBb4LhQdU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEBb4LhQdU [1] https://top5ofanything.com/list/8a1bf3d1/Murders-by-Relationship-to-the-Victim-in-the-United-States https://top5ofanything.com/list/8a1bf3d1/Murders-by-Relation...

cft 10y ago

California for example [1] has a list of vexatious litigants [2]. 1. http://www.courts.ca.gov/12272.htm http://www.courts.ca.gov/12272.htm 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation

5ilv3r 10y ago

Send him home.

LinuxBender 10y ago

Is this not a risky precedent to have in a legal system? If John Q. Public know they will have to jump through legal hoops any time someone makes a claim against them, will this not encourage some folks to take the law into their own hands, thus encouraging actual damages vs. claimed?

CIPHERSTONE 10y ago

It might be easier to state that you are selling your time and not the item, the item is a free gift you are giving to the person that you agree to meet with for your time. "Oh you like this printer? Well the printer is free, but if you want it, you have to pay me $40 for 1 second of my time." You meet, say hello. Collect $40. Give the free printer.

knodi123 10y ago
You might be surprised at how judges react to that sort of sophomoric cleverness. A better solution is to include a simple waiver form such as you've probably signed a thousand times saying "seller is not responsible for any damages blah blah blah". You can find generic versions of those online.
- CIPHERSTONE 10y ago
  >sophomoric cleverness True but my way works for craigslist sales and my gigolo side business, so I've got that going for me..
pavalercci 10y ago
I like this idea and tried to upvote, but could not.

zellyn 10y ago

Anyone have any idea why so many judges recused themselves?

hackaflocka 10y ago

The problem is a system where pieces of paper are sent by mail (often with addresses mis-spelled), and the supposed recipient is in trouble for not responding. There needs to be a better system.

knodi123 10y ago
There is, it's called registered mail. And there's a better solution than that, too- it's called a process server. All of them are vulnerable to corrupt middle-men, but the article doesn't really say what method was used to contact the defendant, so there's really nothing to speculate about.

hackbinary 10y ago

Wow,just wow! Here in Scotland, that man's behaviour would be called vexatious. Vexatious behaviour is not tolerated in the courts here; most of the time.

bluedevil2k 10y ago

It doesn't make any mention about the plantiff's ability to actually collect the damages. In Texas at least, it's extremely difficult to actually collect damages, which make small claims court somewhat meaningless.

choward 10y ago
It also means the courts aren't being utilized as much, so there is time to handle the cases for patent trolls.

chdir 10y ago

Does it help to have a generic boilerplate contract (jurisdiction-wise) signed by both buyer & seller for such transactions, where the buyer would sign that they have inspected the item to their knowledge and assume full responsibility of the purchase, and that they won't hold the seller responsible for blah blah. At the same time, the seller assumes that they have given up ownership of the said item for whatever money they've received in this transaction ?

Spooky23 10y ago
I rarely use Craigslist, as it's a cesspool of fraud. But when I sell used stuff online, I lost the terms as "As is" and don't make representations as to working condition.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

sandworm101 10y ago

My civpro prof loved Rule11 and told us many tales of nefarious attorneys being humiliated by judges as punishment for this sort of behavior. It can happen even to the pro se as a party. https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11 https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11

why-el 10y ago

> Because Costello did not respond to all three requests for admissions within 30 days of receiving them, and did not ask for an extension of time, as required by Indiana trial rules, Costello admitted to the liabilities and damages by default This is awkwardly similar to the other John Oliver story in today's HN, in which debt buyers exploit this fact to have as many people admitting liabilities as possible.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

Not that this isn't absurd but CL is for shit you can't ship. eBay is for stuff you can. CL acts purely as a platform to list classified ads and leaves dispute resolution up to the users. That's why this happened. Add this to the other 9000 reasons you only do business via CL face to face and with cash. Move along, nothing to see here folks.

chillacy 10y ago
Would ebay's contracts or customer support prevent this situation? They have arbitration on-site, but what stops a buyer from going to the legal system?

ausjke 10y ago

This guy should be packed and shipped back if there is any sanity in the legal system here at all. What a loser who ruins other peoples' life for his ridiculous greed.

chillacy 10y ago
I wonder if he has a (destructive) mental illness.. it just seems too far-fetched for him to believe that Costello was conspiring with the judge against him and develop what seems to be a persecution complex.

rdlecler1 10y ago

Where is Peter Theil when you need him! Getting your legal team behind this could ameleorate some bad PR.

mlvljr 10y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sALru9IJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sALru9IJk