13 ms·

Credibility and trust: Microsoft blows it by forcing Windows 10 on users

82 points by sidcool 10y ago

hoodoof 10y ago
Meh. I totally understand Microsoft's position - it absolutely requires its user base to move to Windows 10, and has been severely punished by having a user base stuck on versions going all the way back to XP. Something has to change - people don't upgrade unless they are forced to.
- sametmax 10y ago
  > people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. Do you hear yourself? What if people don't need to upgrade ? Sorry, but I'm the one knowing best about if I need to upgrade my OS. And when you pay for a machine, a lot of money, and you pay for a system, a lot of money, you expect to have the choice of what you do with said machine and system. Plus, do you know why people sticked to XP ? Because it worked. Same with windows 7. If you don't need a new system, there is no reason to change. It's work. It's uncertainty. It will break things. And I won't even begin with the w10 spywares. Not to mention the way it's been done which is downright disrespecteful.
  - nailer 10y ago
    I'm not necessarily sure regular people understand bitrot. Some of the largest botnets in the world were created from XP machines where users could install major updates but it wasn't done automatically.
    - creshal 10y ago
      Security updates ≠ version upgrades. Automatically installing security updates is fine. Upgrading users to a new major release that deprecates a shitton of working hardware and software for no reason but to make life for MS easier, is not fine.
      - sametmax 10y ago
        +1. What's more it's very clear the ugrade is all about control because Win 10 features: - ads in the OS (FFS!) - spywares - an app store to control the channel of user installs So it's not an upgrade to make people safer, it's just all about MS wanting more, and forcing people in the direction so they can get it. It's not about the customers at all. In no way it's for their own good. And fact you paid for it has no importance, you'll be forced to give more.
        kodfodrasz 10y ago
        This ads in the OS is a bullshit I keep hearing. Why is this not a problem with Android or iOS? I have not met much ads, apart from the install office stuff. Spyware? The telemetry enabled them to have faster feedback and the quality of Win10 improved before my very eyes. If you have developed an app and used a telemetry framework, you should know that it is not spying. If they were to spy they'd do it differently, not by asking you to please provide us some data for QoS. App store is bad? Is it not bad for the other major OS-es? It is good if it is called apt-get? The App store provides sandboxing and isolation, security to the users, where a single install of a software cannot break others. When the containerization arrives (as new features come to Win10 continously) this will be even cooler, as legacy apps can be packaged and spread through the app store. No more problems with installing stuff unattended, or having to accept EULAs, as those can be stored on an account level in the Store. No more installshield madness.
        sametmax 10y ago
        > This ads in the OS is a bullshit I keep hearing. http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-disable-windows-10-start-menu-ads/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-disable-windows-10-start... > The telemetry enabled them to have faster feedback I know the commercial pitch. telemetry is a polite name for spywares. The fact one of the goal is the OS improvement doesn't change that. If I kick you in the face to scratch my hand, I still kick you in the face. > App store is bad I never said app store were bad. I just said MS was pushing 10 so they can get the app store in so they can improve their sales. Not because they wanted to help anybody. I like stores. Altough comparing app stores to package repo is like comparing a group of libraries and book clubs to the only book shops available in the city.
  - captainmuon 10y ago
    > Sorry, but I'm the one knowing best about if I need to upgrade my OS. I can't speak about you, but I certainly don't think I know best about when to upgrade my OS. I rarely need new features, and hate unnecessary changes to my running system like anybody else. But I've seen spreading malware crap far to often to take chances. Remember the time when you had to disconnect the computer from the internet while installing Windows XP, because unpatched installations would be taken over in minutes by worms? For most people (unless you have an excellent firewall and don't browse the web), the only sane option is to keep everything up-to-date with all security updates. If Microsoft decides they can't afford to backport security updates to older versions after some years, then at some point we have to swallow the toad and upgrade. It's just the unfortunate reality of current OSes.
    - Piskvorrr 10y ago
      Well...how about "our HW vendor has been promising WinX drivers for some months now, but for now, supported OSes end at Win 8.1"? Is MS still in the best position to decide "eh never mind, it's not like you are actually using that very specific piece of hardware - off to WinX you go"? In other words, "I am not capable of deciding" does not translate into "therefore everyone gets force-fed the upgrade (because of course they're not capable of deciding, either)."
      - captainmuon 10y ago
        Well I agree if you have a good reason (like a lack of driver) then you absolutely should be able to delay or cancel the update. I think there are two different questions. Should updates auto-install by default (after a warning), and should you be able to reject any update? I'd say yes to both, but unfortunately Microsoft tends to no for both sometimes.
- aswanson 10y ago
  How about, I dunno creating a product that makes it worthwhile rather than strong-arm tactics?
  - sametmax 10y ago
    +1. Nobody is asking why people DON'T want to upgrade so bad ? It's should be a fraking red flag.
    - Piskvorrr 10y ago
      Oh, lots of people are asking; just that MS does not want to hear the answer ("your previous OSes are so good that the risks of an upgrade outweigh the perceived benefits"). Product cannibalization is the term, I believe.
    - gengkev 10y ago
      Meanwhile the offer of a free upgrade to Windows 10 supposedly ends on July 29, 2016. I wonder what'll happen then...
- spacemanmatt 10y ago
  Microsoft are victims of their own success. I watched the antitrust trials. They deserve no sympathy. None.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Your comment baffles me. People have legitimate concerns about upgrading to Win10.
- ilkkao 10y ago
  As a web developer I'm also happy to see Windows 10 getting more popular. The happy day when all browsers are finally evergreen is getting at least a little bit closer.
- michaelt 10y ago
  people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. Sure they do - when the upgrades are pleasant and don't break things. People will update firefox any day of the week, because they've made such updates many times in the past; only a small fraction of users have been burned by radical user interface changes or breaking compatibility with existing sites; and most of those who have had a problem with changes have found a configuration option (albeit hidden) to disable the change. On the other hand, updating from Windows 7 to Windows 10 means a bunch of user interface changes you can't opt out of; and a bunch of your existing software no longer working. It doesn't take a genius to tell if you bundle your security updates with radical user interface redesigns and break compatibility with a bunch of existing software, some users aren't going to apply the security updates.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    Firefox might be an unfortunate example. Mozilla also started trying to push major UI changes and features users didn't want, and look at the chart of their market share since then.
- appleflaxen 10y ago
  I understand it, but would have preferred some transparency. "Users: this is what we are planning. We know it's uncomfortable, but it's best because of _ and _. Please make arrangements now if you want your computer to continue operating as-is (without security or updates), because as of _, the OS upgrade will be rolled out automatically". The other thing to remember is that they made their own bed: they wanted to be able to sell users each individual "new" version of the OS, which created this mentality in the first place. Like the (currently) top comment wisely says: if you focus relentlessly on the user, all of this is a much smaller problem, because your upgrades are amazing, and users want to upgrade voluntarily.
- ebbv 10y ago
  > people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. This is very short sighted on multiple fronts. If you force someone into an upgrade they didn't actually want they're going to be annoyed, and they may revert the upgrade. If you then start showing ads as part of your OS after the upgrade, those people are going to be really upset. Then once they find out just how much data about them you are collecting, some of them are going to have such a damaged option of your company they will never buy another product from you. That all is just talking about home users of Windows and their experience. The amount of money wasted by Windows 10's aggressive upgrade in corporations is probably in the billions of dollars. Think about how many calls and trouble tickets have probably come in over the last year about the unintended upgrades. Lastly, I personally only use my PC for gaming. I don't like Windows 10. I've had to turn off auto-update on my Windows 7 machine because the attempts to trick me into upgrade have gotten more and more aggressive and I can't be sure that I'm not fall for it late at night or just wake up one day with my machine upgraded to an OS I don't want. That's bad.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    The amount of money wasted by Windows 10's aggressive upgrade in corporations is probably in the billions of dollars. Think about how many calls and trouble tickets have probably come in over the last year about the unintended upgrades. It's probably far less of a problem for enterprise customers, because they have the tools to control updates centrally within their IT departments. Microsoft is surely well aware that professional sysadmins won't tolerate things like having arbitrary updates applied to their systems by Microsoft, and for sysadmins in larger organisations there is enough real revenue at stake that Microsoft will do something about it, hence LTSB in Windows 10 Enterprise. The thing I don't understand is why Microsoft think smaller businesses or power users -- the kind of people who were running Pro on Windows 7 or 8.x -- would be any more willing to compromise on that count, and why they think that market is going to voluntarily update to Windows 10 Pro, which appears to be a very different kind of product to its namesake in earlier versions.
- cm3 10y ago
  People do upgrade when they know from experience that their system won't regress. It's not necessarily a Windows LTS ala RHEL what's needed, but something inbetween Windows XP is unsupported and Windows 10 breaks your usage must be possible if MS doesn't want to lose more desktop users. And let's not forget that the heavy desktop users (prosumers, etc.) are those who most of the time are consulted by family and friends for advice regarding computers. So, if you alienate them, there's a high chance they will recommend a Linux desktop for most common computer usage.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  I totally understand Microsoft's position - it absolutely requires its user base to move to Windows 10, and has been severely punished by having a user base stuck on versions going all the way back to XP. I wish my punishment for writing some software and issuing a few updates for security defects was also measured in billions of dollars.
- marssaxman 10y ago
  It doesn't matter what Microsoft "absolutely requires", because they don't own and have no authority over their customers' computers. They do not have any right to force their customers to do anything with those computers.
ourmandave 10y ago
I wonder what the reporting of the transition to Windows 11 will look like?
- sz4kerto 10y ago
  There won't be Windows 11. That's why all of this is happening -- Microsoft changing the model. (Almost) nobody is complaining about Google forcing them to update Android to the next version -- it just happens. That's what Microsoft is doing right now.
  - origami777 10y ago
    Does it do the same thing in Android? I'm on iOS and I still have a choice. There's a million popups, but I have a choice.
    - captainmuon 10y ago
      Naw, it's almost the opposite I'd say. Many phones (esp. if you don't buy it directly but get it from your carrier) stop seeing updates very quickly. If you want to stay up-to-date, you have to install a custom ROM or buy a new phone.
  - mhurron 10y ago
    > nobody is complaining about Google forcing them to update Android to the next version That's because it doesn't happen. You get a new version of Android when you buy a new phone.
    - rajeevk 10y ago
      Not always.. Once I decided not to upgrade. But it used to pop up every now and then and I used to cancel the notification. Once by mistake, I pressed ok and there was no way to cancel the update. Then it bloated my phone(Samsung S4) like anything and phone keeps complaining out of disk space and I have to keep deleting my photos(and also uninstall apps) for getting more and more space for the stupid android it's own junk
thatsdumbson 10y ago
I love how anti-Microsoft articles are still considered "activism" by some people. Does this article contribute to any kind of conversation that hasn't been had a thousand times before on HN?
LoSboccacc 10y ago
Meh. I see many users happy with the free upgrade, and many business badly hurt because they were using the home version instead of a properly configured pro/enterprise. I just don't buy in the hyperbole., besides windows 7 is out of support and windows 8 is going off next year. Those users will be the next in line into botnets. At least microsoft takes backward compatibility seriously and upgrades are relatively painless compared to, say, linux.
- sametmax 10y ago
  Just because something is not supported anymore doesn't mean you have the right to force people to stop people using it. Windows 7 is not out of support because it's obsolete, it's out of support because of MS commercial strategy.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - origami777 10y ago
    Excellent point. That's the heart of the issue. Changing the terms of the relationship after they've been established. Great way to ruin trust.
    - gengkev 10y ago
      This is exactly my issue with the forced upgrade. With a browser like Chrome, automatic upgrades are there from day one. Everybody expects them, and they happen silently anyway. On the other hand, Windows 7 users never signed up for forced OS upgrades when they purchased the OS. (Especially not an upgrade that downloads gigabytes of data, forces your computer offline for hours, and sometimes even bricks your computer.)
- mhurron 10y ago
  > windows 7 is out of support Windows 7 is not out of support. It is out of mainstream support which means Microsoft develops and releases no new features for it. Windows 7 is in Extended support until 2020, which means it continues to get security patches, which is really all anyone cares about.
captainmuon 10y ago
To offer a counterpoint, I've had several people in the family who tried to update to windows 10 and couldn't manage to do it - even with all the prompts, nagging, and supposed auto-installation. And hilariously, all you have to do is to press Next a couple of times and wait an hour. I'm one of those people who updated early, and had a lot of problems - with Wifi, touchpad, and incompatible software (Cisco VPN). And still, I'd advocate that Microsoft should just update everything automatically. Yes, it hurts some users (who should be able to opt-out easily!) but is the right option for >95% of home users. Heck, I wouldn't even announce it as a new version. If the user had Windows 7 and updates to the latest windows, keep "Windows 7" in the info box and keep the glass theme (and put the real version in the small-print). Then at some point drop the version number altogether (something I believe MS is planning to do soon anyway), and offer the user to "download the exciting modern theme for free!". The truth is, the difference between Windows 8.1 and 10 is smaller than between some service packs for previous versions. Actually, 10 rolls back some much-hated changes in 8, so it is very close to 7 in some regards. The way I see it, there are two ways to get people to run current Windows: 1) secretly update it under their seats and don't make a fuss about it or 2) make people excited so they really want to upgrade (like 95 or XP). What MS is doing now - show ads and make it look like they have ulterior motives to update your 'perfectly fine' OS - might not be the best solution...
- Hermel 10y ago
  That approach is not compatible with making users explicitly agree with the new privacy policy that basically allows Microsoft to access your data. So it might have been the corporate lawyers that demanded this to be an upgrade that requires explicit consent.
  - captainmuon 10y ago
    True. But most of the changes to the privacy policy are to make Cortana work, which in the current state works like crap for me anyway. If they'd not shove that into their OS, but make it a separate product (that actually worked and not just opened Bing all the time), people would be more willing to sign their terms (and might even pay for it).
origami777 10y ago
The perception of MSFT in the IT Industy has been improving. Seems like it has been largely due to their open source and innovation activities. I have recently competed against MSFT in the field. And I can assure you they are up to their old dirt bag tricks. The one I disliked the most was modifying customer contracts to inflate sales numbers of some of their products. When I see news like this I'm not surprised. Their moves don't seem genuine. Just some PR plan. Putting lipstick on a pig.
- cm3 10y ago
  While they cannot take back open sourcing some of the core technologies liberally, this doesn't mean their management had to be become friendly as well. Microsoft is so big that it's no wonder that one team does something great for everyone while another team partly voids the improvement by doing something stupid. Windows 8 and 10 have, as usual, improved the kernel and the surrounding subsystems but the stuff on top got worse in many aspects. My conclusion is that Microsoft is in need of a charismatic leader who keeps quality in check and regression to a minimum. Someone who doesn't tolerate the stuff they're pulling right now.
riotdash 10y ago
So funny how few months ago some people were so excited to finally change their unix system to Windows after they revealed the wannabe-unix-support in the Windows 10, but everyone forgot what kind of cancer the Microsoft is and has always been.
snarfy 10y ago
They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Technically they usually are, but then management starts making decisions about what is best. Not what is best for the user, what is best for Microsoft. If they just focused on the users, it would all work itself out. People would want to upgrade. Instead we get to login to our local machine with a Microsoft account, data tracking, etc. These are all things good for Microsoft.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  As far from an MS fanboy as I am, this is one thing I need to disagree on: WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; at least on fresh installs. The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. The botch (which just keeps getting worse) is the forced-by-any-means upgrade; if you have an upgrade path planned, and you're in the middle of testing, having all the workstations pull the rug from under you (because "This is where you want to go today!") is, IMNSHO, borderline criminal. In other words: We had wanted to upgrade. Within weeks. Now we're dug in the trenches, locked down and hoping we didn't miss one of the upgrade backdoors; the upgrade plan is, of course, scrapped altogether. In a sentence: COMPLETE LOSS OF TRUST.
  - cm3 10y ago
    The data collectors can be disabled, but MS has renamed services or otherwise introduced remedies to prevent disabling of the collectors, and therefore it's safe to distrust in that regard.
    - dd9990 10y ago
      Only Entreprise customers can fully opt out of all data collection. [1] All other users can only disable a subset and their PCs will submit "Basic Telemetry" regardless of what they do. Microsoft has defended this: " Windows 10 still phones home to Microsoft with telemetry data including an anonymous device ID, information about the type of device that's being used, and data from application crashes. That sort of data has been key to solving problems with the operating system and other applications, according to an explanation published Monday from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Terry Myerson." [1] http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/microsoft-will-let-business-users-opt-out-of-windows-10-tracking.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/m...
someguydave 10y ago
I do not want Windows 10 because Microsoft dropped Windows Media Center support.
dep_b 10y ago
One hand Apple does the same with OS X, where every Mac from 2008 onwards basically still receives free OS updates. On the other hand those OS upgrades are usually barely more than a UI refresh and never seem to cause any problems knocks on wood. I usually wait out half a year or something before upgrading because I don't have any pressing reasons to upgrade, maybe one computer that gets the new version so I can test stuff. Windows seems to change radically with each version. And none of the changes seem to be permanent. At least the OS on my Mac really changed when it changed and then it stayed the same for 15 years again.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  I don't recall being forced to upgrade, though.
- 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
  Apple adds lots of new features every release. https://www.apple.com/au/osx/whats-new/ https://www.apple.com/au/osx/whats-new/ (I just learnt that I could wiggle my finger really fast to find my lost mouse pointer) I agree that it never really feels like it though. The last big features that really changed/improved things were 2 finger right click and scroll, Spotlight and Time Machine.
milansm 10y ago
When I bought my laptop I got Windows 8.1 with it. I didn't want to delete it immediately so I dual boot Ubuntu and used Windows only occasionally. Then one day I couldn't start Windows because it was stuck in infinite update loop, even though I turned off updates because of those annoying "please update to win 10" messages. Now I run only Ubuntu.
homero 10y ago
Automatic updates are a no go and now they brought it to Windows 7! I feel like they're hacking my computers and now I'm constantly checking that 10 isn't being installed behind my back! It's stressful!
galfarragem 10y ago
I'm one (of several - I'm sure) that updated to Win10 and 2 hours later reverted to Win7. 'Cut your losses' is normally a good advice.
corv 10y ago
I was recently invited to a demo of a complex 3D rig. A couple of days earlier someone must have given in to the Windows 10 update nag. Suffice to say, once the system was on location it never got out of a reboot loop. Fortunately a replacement was on hand but imagining a botched live performance in front of a large audience is cringe inducing. When you see Grandpa running a 'Windows 10 update blocker' and 'Start Menu reverting utility' something must have gone very wrong during UX development, or the company simply doesn't care about its users. On the flip-side, I've never seen recent converts being so happy with their Linux installs, nor have I had so many requests for that "Linux thing". There are use cases where Windows simply doesn't belong, such as digital signage and ATMs. It's a pity many developers keep choosing what they are comfortable with instead of the right tool for the job.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  Digital signage and ATMs? I think the Windows Embedded line is built specifically with these in mind (of course there are non-Windows options as well); hacking and slashing through the desktop Windows would bite you in such use cases :)
melling 10y ago
Microsoft loses credibility? What does that mean? People complain all day on the Internet while Microsoft's desktop monopoly of 90% falls 0.1%? Microsoft has nothing to lose and much to gain by getting more of their customers on the latest version of Windows. In fact, developers, especially web developers, should be excited that Microsoft is upgrading everyone they can.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  That means "OS vendor has a backdoor open in our systems, on purpose" is very bad news. Very, very, very, very bad news. As in "audit noncompliance bad news". This is not a matter of mom-and-pop shops with three computers, or of any interest to the home user, but the fallout might be massive (as in "time to look for a different vendor, can't have that").
  - melling 10y ago
    "Might be massive" Thanks for the hyperbole. I guess you used the word "might" so you can't be wrong when nothing changes? As I explained, there won't be any consequences.
    - Piskvorrr 10y ago
      Future is sort of hard to predict, at least for me. But you seem significantly more capable thereof; come on, enlighten me! (The "might" expands to this: a retraction of the, ahem, telemetry, and the continuous update policy - at least for the enterprise segment - is one way the MS could avoid this trap it's built for itself; given their behavior to date, I doubt it will)
acqq 10y ago
My example why I can't upgrade and regularly have to fight the updates that try to force me again and again: two notebooks, one older, one relatively recent. Windows 10 breaks things on both. On the older, even if the "Update to 10" says "everything's OK," after the update the machine is so unstable that it gets often stuck and crashes regularly. It has enough RAM, the cause is "officially unsupported" Intel WiFi card that I can't replace with the newer. On the newer notebook, the touchpad remains effectively broken: its sensitivity is different, the scroll areas can't be activated. The screen is somehow also more prone to temporary "burn-in" effects. The notebook is specifically not listed by the manufacturer as "upgradable to Windows 10." Microsoft however forces upgrade again and again. From my point of view, Windows 10 upgrade definitely has problems with notebooks.
berntb 10y ago
Try to Google for the anecdote about a bloody monitor in the bed. I would, with complete confidence, hire Microsoft for SEO... :-)
Pxtl 10y ago
I have win10 on several of my machines and while I think the UI is a nice fix of the lousy win8 UI, thing is buggy as hell. I was getting video driver crashes during sleep and other sleep-of-death bugs on multiple devices, including a Surface. And the file browser crashes a lot.
cm3 10y ago
The update tool claims your system (including drivers and software) is compatible with Windows 10, only later to realize that some hardware doesn't work or an application doesn't start anymore. While these are rare, it's unacceptable to force people to update when it's incompatible to upgrade the existing installation.
- greggman 10y ago
  Oh yeah, I went through that a few months ago 48 minutes to install only for it to fail, ~70 minutes for it to back out. Then my mistake I hit upgrade again and had to do the entire 128 mins again :( Still on Windows 8.1 on that machine
  - gengkev 10y ago
    I have a machine that got stuck at around 42% through the upgrade process and I left it there for a whole day before holding down the power button to shut it off. Then the recovery process started.
cm3 10y ago
Another data point: Windows Media Center is either not available in the to-be-upgraded-to-licensed version of Windows and you have to buy it now, or it's not available anymore, don't remember. But people's HTPC's were updated and there was no Media Center anymore. What did users do? They installed a non-Windows media center solution, completely replacing Windows. This cannot be in Microsoft's interest, unless they want to rid themselves of those users.
- ascagnel_ 10y ago
  In the US, at least, WMC was the only commercially-available software that supported anything other than copy-freely CableCard programs. So if you were planning on watching Game of Thrones (HBO is usually a channel whose programs are copy-flagged), MS screwed you pretty badly.
JohnTHaller 10y ago
I spent a chunk of yesterday talking my girlfriend's dad through downgrading back to Windows 7 since his laptop had (helpfully) upgraded on him which killed his ability to use QuickBooks to manage his business. Fun fun. At this exact moment, I'm trying to troubleshoot the dreaded "Remote procedure call failed" error on my barely used Windows 10 laptop which breaks all the fake apps (aka Windows store apps) that come bundled with the OS. If you want reliable apps on Windows 10, use real Windows apps not Windows store apps.
athrun 10y ago
Up until about two weeks ago, I thought people were being unreasonably whinny about the changes in Windows 10. This was before I noticed that Candy Crush Saga silently installed itself on my Windows 10 machine. Not only that but it was listed as a running application in the Task Manager. Think about it: the system is silently installing & running third party apps without your consent (!) and there's no option to control that behavior. (This is not me having hallucinations, see [1] for other reports of that behavior). I don't know why it took that long but it seriously compromised any trust I had with the company. [1] https://www.google.ie/search?rls=en&q=windows+10+candy+crush+keeps+installing https://www.google.ie/search?rls=en&q=windows+10+candy+crush...
- mikegerwitz 10y ago
  https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html
- legodt 10y ago
  Slight correction, but it doesn't take away from your overall comment: On Windows 10 installs that Candy Crush "app" is actually a silently bundled advertisement/link to manually installing the game. The point about insidiously injecting unwanted data into your computer still stands, but this is a minor difference.
  - athrun 10y ago
    Thanks for the correction! I was in panic mode when I found that app listed in the Task Manager, I really thought my computer had been compromised and I uninstalled that app right away without actually looking at it. Glad to know it's 'only' an ad and not arbitrary code. But as you point out, it's still an obvious violation of trust...
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  I have two identical machines sitting in the same room. Upgraded one; other (this one) still running Win7. I used to go back and forth, getting a feel for what is different. The third time resetting the Win10 new browser home-page, new tab page and search engine back to my preferred ones, I began to doubt they had my interests at heart. Now I find myself never using the Win10 machine; its just too much grief and frustration. I don't want to waste time undoing the automatic changes they keep making.
saiya-jin 10y ago
well, since linux is far from easy for most non-tech people and not 100% working for all windows apps, I presume popularity of up-to-date hacked distros will soar. so far i don't see a single reason to move from Win7, and I instructed my fiancee to not interact with any update dialogs on her laptop, just move them outside of screen. Well done, Microsoft, well done
Neil44 10y ago
Most days I'm taking calls from people who's business machines have updated to Windows 10 and something has stopped working. What is the rationalle for forcing people to upgrade the OS on business machines that are mid-life and doing their job perfectly well as is? It's not your decision Microsoft, and you're costing these people money.
arca_vorago 10y ago
I feel like people are losing sightnof the big picture here, which at it's core, Microsoft has always been opposed to user freedom. Windows is a closed source black box that you dont have control of. You can spruce it up all you want, but its the cold hard truth. Foss is the future, so those ofnus freeing ourselves of the clutches of proprietary where we can will be ahead of the game when in 6 months we learn via document leaks, (because those of us paying attention) realize the NSA backdoors are so deep now good luck being a dissident and running doze.
xori 10y ago
While I agree this is a loss of trust I think this is a total logical move from Microsoft. Windows 7 first came out in 2009, and they can't afford to keep supporting an old OS in today's market. And leaving their users with an unsecured OS isn't smart for PR in the long run either. Apple's point of view on this is "upgrade or be left in the cold", which I personally think is worse.
rasz_pl 10y ago
Microsoft is currently transitioning whole desktop division to the Iphone model. They tried to succeed in mobile for 20 years now (CE release) and failed regularly every single time, often times _destroying_ their strategic mobile partners (palm, nortel, very famously sendo, finally nokia). Ballmers last 'brilliant' plan was to kill their own Desktop business in an effort to gain mobile foothold with unified Windows Phone platform. Obviously that didnt work either, backup plan is ... there is no backup plan, they will simply transform desktops into disposable walled garden centrally managed phone systems full of junk apps pushed from the mothership and a steady revenue generated by all the spywar^^^buildin analytics. Microsoft dreams about that 30% cut of every app sold, and they will murder desktop to get it.
cm3 10y ago
What I never got an answer to is how Windows users cope with the abysmally long update times and reboot/update/reboot cycles. Just the process to check for updates takes ages on most machines, regardless of RAM or SSD. On Linux (Debian, Arch, Fedora) or FreeBSD this is just a matter of a couple minutes, applying the upgrade included. This is one of the huge advantages which, if we can show it to Windows users, they might get more envious and ready to try an Ubuntu release. I do understand Microsoft's insistence to allow removing particular upgrades selectively, and that might be used as an argument for the inefficient update system, but if you do that, it's just as easy to leave a broken Windows, so I don't buy it. If Microsoft could at least take some hints from Apple, where you have always just one latest version of a component, it might be step forward. As it stands, you'll have 4 MSVC runtimes, 3 .Net runtimes, and so on, all complicating matters. A little streamlining of their components with an improved update software implementation should do wonders. That said, I'd love read more about this from someone who knows Windows deeper than me, because I cannot believe MS so ignorant of the abysmal update times.

82 points by sidcool 10y ago

Meh. I totally understand Microsoft's position - it absolutely requires its user base to move to Windows 10, and has been severely punished by having a user base stuck on versions going all the way back to XP. Something has to change - people don't upgrade unless they are forced to.

sametmax 10y ago
> people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. Do you hear yourself? What if people don't need to upgrade ? Sorry, but I'm the one knowing best about if I need to upgrade my OS. And when you pay for a machine, a lot of money, and you pay for a system, a lot of money, you expect to have the choice of what you do with said machine and system. Plus, do you know why people sticked to XP ? Because it worked. Same with windows 7. If you don't need a new system, there is no reason to change. It's work. It's uncertainty. It will break things. And I won't even begin with the w10 spywares. Not to mention the way it's been done which is downright disrespecteful.
- nailer 10y ago
  I'm not necessarily sure regular people understand bitrot. Some of the largest botnets in the world were created from XP machines where users could install major updates but it wasn't done automatically.
  - creshal 10y ago
    Security updates ≠ version upgrades. Automatically installing security updates is fine. Upgrading users to a new major release that deprecates a shitton of working hardware and software for no reason but to make life for MS easier, is not fine.
    - sametmax 10y ago
      +1. What's more it's very clear the ugrade is all about control because Win 10 features: - ads in the OS (FFS!) - spywares - an app store to control the channel of user installs So it's not an upgrade to make people safer, it's just all about MS wanting more, and forcing people in the direction so they can get it. It's not about the customers at all. In no way it's for their own good. And fact you paid for it has no importance, you'll be forced to give more.
      - kodfodrasz 10y ago
        This ads in the OS is a bullshit I keep hearing. Why is this not a problem with Android or iOS? I have not met much ads, apart from the install office stuff. Spyware? The telemetry enabled them to have faster feedback and the quality of Win10 improved before my very eyes. If you have developed an app and used a telemetry framework, you should know that it is not spying. If they were to spy they'd do it differently, not by asking you to please provide us some data for QoS. App store is bad? Is it not bad for the other major OS-es? It is good if it is called apt-get? The App store provides sandboxing and isolation, security to the users, where a single install of a software cannot break others. When the containerization arrives (as new features come to Win10 continously) this will be even cooler, as legacy apps can be packaged and spread through the app store. No more problems with installing stuff unattended, or having to accept EULAs, as those can be stored on an account level in the Store. No more installshield madness.
        sametmax 10y ago
        > This ads in the OS is a bullshit I keep hearing. http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-disable-windows-10-start-menu-ads/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-disable-windows-10-start... > The telemetry enabled them to have faster feedback I know the commercial pitch. telemetry is a polite name for spywares. The fact one of the goal is the OS improvement doesn't change that. If I kick you in the face to scratch my hand, I still kick you in the face. > App store is bad I never said app store were bad. I just said MS was pushing 10 so they can get the app store in so they can improve their sales. Not because they wanted to help anybody. I like stores. Altough comparing app stores to package repo is like comparing a group of libraries and book clubs to the only book shops available in the city.
- captainmuon 10y ago
  > Sorry, but I'm the one knowing best about if I need to upgrade my OS. I can't speak about you, but I certainly don't think I know best about when to upgrade my OS. I rarely need new features, and hate unnecessary changes to my running system like anybody else. But I've seen spreading malware crap far to often to take chances. Remember the time when you had to disconnect the computer from the internet while installing Windows XP, because unpatched installations would be taken over in minutes by worms? For most people (unless you have an excellent firewall and don't browse the web), the only sane option is to keep everything up-to-date with all security updates. If Microsoft decides they can't afford to backport security updates to older versions after some years, then at some point we have to swallow the toad and upgrade. It's just the unfortunate reality of current OSes.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Well...how about "our HW vendor has been promising WinX drivers for some months now, but for now, supported OSes end at Win 8.1"? Is MS still in the best position to decide "eh never mind, it's not like you are actually using that very specific piece of hardware - off to WinX you go"? In other words, "I am not capable of deciding" does not translate into "therefore everyone gets force-fed the upgrade (because of course they're not capable of deciding, either)."
    - captainmuon 10y ago
      Well I agree if you have a good reason (like a lack of driver) then you absolutely should be able to delay or cancel the update. I think there are two different questions. Should updates auto-install by default (after a warning), and should you be able to reject any update? I'd say yes to both, but unfortunately Microsoft tends to no for both sometimes.
aswanson 10y ago
How about, I dunno creating a product that makes it worthwhile rather than strong-arm tactics?
- sametmax 10y ago
  +1. Nobody is asking why people DON'T want to upgrade so bad ? It's should be a fraking red flag.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Oh, lots of people are asking; just that MS does not want to hear the answer ("your previous OSes are so good that the risks of an upgrade outweigh the perceived benefits"). Product cannibalization is the term, I believe.
  - gengkev 10y ago
    Meanwhile the offer of a free upgrade to Windows 10 supposedly ends on July 29, 2016. I wonder what'll happen then...
spacemanmatt 10y ago
Microsoft are victims of their own success. I watched the antitrust trials. They deserve no sympathy. None.
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Your comment baffles me. People have legitimate concerns about upgrading to Win10.
ilkkao 10y ago
As a web developer I'm also happy to see Windows 10 getting more popular. The happy day when all browsers are finally evergreen is getting at least a little bit closer.
michaelt 10y ago
people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. Sure they do - when the upgrades are pleasant and don't break things. People will update firefox any day of the week, because they've made such updates many times in the past; only a small fraction of users have been burned by radical user interface changes or breaking compatibility with existing sites; and most of those who have had a problem with changes have found a configuration option (albeit hidden) to disable the change. On the other hand, updating from Windows 7 to Windows 10 means a bunch of user interface changes you can't opt out of; and a bunch of your existing software no longer working. It doesn't take a genius to tell if you bundle your security updates with radical user interface redesigns and break compatibility with a bunch of existing software, some users aren't going to apply the security updates.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Firefox might be an unfortunate example. Mozilla also started trying to push major UI changes and features users didn't want, and look at the chart of their market share since then.
appleflaxen 10y ago
I understand it, but would have preferred some transparency. "Users: this is what we are planning. We know it's uncomfortable, but it's best because of _ and _. Please make arrangements now if you want your computer to continue operating as-is (without security or updates), because as of _, the OS upgrade will be rolled out automatically". The other thing to remember is that they made their own bed: they wanted to be able to sell users each individual "new" version of the OS, which created this mentality in the first place. Like the (currently) top comment wisely says: if you focus relentlessly on the user, all of this is a much smaller problem, because your upgrades are amazing, and users want to upgrade voluntarily.
ebbv 10y ago
> people don't upgrade unless they are forced to. This is very short sighted on multiple fronts. If you force someone into an upgrade they didn't actually want they're going to be annoyed, and they may revert the upgrade. If you then start showing ads as part of your OS after the upgrade, those people are going to be really upset. Then once they find out just how much data about them you are collecting, some of them are going to have such a damaged option of your company they will never buy another product from you. That all is just talking about home users of Windows and their experience. The amount of money wasted by Windows 10's aggressive upgrade in corporations is probably in the billions of dollars. Think about how many calls and trouble tickets have probably come in over the last year about the unintended upgrades. Lastly, I personally only use my PC for gaming. I don't like Windows 10. I've had to turn off auto-update on my Windows 7 machine because the attempts to trick me into upgrade have gotten more and more aggressive and I can't be sure that I'm not fall for it late at night or just wake up one day with my machine upgraded to an OS I don't want. That's bad.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  The amount of money wasted by Windows 10's aggressive upgrade in corporations is probably in the billions of dollars. Think about how many calls and trouble tickets have probably come in over the last year about the unintended upgrades. It's probably far less of a problem for enterprise customers, because they have the tools to control updates centrally within their IT departments. Microsoft is surely well aware that professional sysadmins won't tolerate things like having arbitrary updates applied to their systems by Microsoft, and for sysadmins in larger organisations there is enough real revenue at stake that Microsoft will do something about it, hence LTSB in Windows 10 Enterprise. The thing I don't understand is why Microsoft think smaller businesses or power users -- the kind of people who were running Pro on Windows 7 or 8.x -- would be any more willing to compromise on that count, and why they think that market is going to voluntarily update to Windows 10 Pro, which appears to be a very different kind of product to its namesake in earlier versions.
cm3 10y ago
People do upgrade when they know from experience that their system won't regress. It's not necessarily a Windows LTS ala RHEL what's needed, but something inbetween Windows XP is unsupported and Windows 10 breaks your usage must be possible if MS doesn't want to lose more desktop users. And let's not forget that the heavy desktop users (prosumers, etc.) are those who most of the time are consulted by family and friends for advice regarding computers. So, if you alienate them, there's a high chance they will recommend a Linux desktop for most common computer usage.
Silhouette 10y ago
I totally understand Microsoft's position - it absolutely requires its user base to move to Windows 10, and has been severely punished by having a user base stuck on versions going all the way back to XP. I wish my punishment for writing some software and issuing a few updates for security defects was also measured in billions of dollars.
marssaxman 10y ago
It doesn't matter what Microsoft "absolutely requires", because they don't own and have no authority over their customers' computers. They do not have any right to force their customers to do anything with those computers.

ourmandave 10y ago

I wonder what the reporting of the transition to Windows 11 will look like?

sz4kerto 10y ago
There won't be Windows 11. That's why all of this is happening -- Microsoft changing the model. (Almost) nobody is complaining about Google forcing them to update Android to the next version -- it just happens. That's what Microsoft is doing right now.
- origami777 10y ago
  Does it do the same thing in Android? I'm on iOS and I still have a choice. There's a million popups, but I have a choice.
  - captainmuon 10y ago
    Naw, it's almost the opposite I'd say. Many phones (esp. if you don't buy it directly but get it from your carrier) stop seeing updates very quickly. If you want to stay up-to-date, you have to install a custom ROM or buy a new phone.
- mhurron 10y ago
  > nobody is complaining about Google forcing them to update Android to the next version That's because it doesn't happen. You get a new version of Android when you buy a new phone.
  - rajeevk 10y ago
    Not always.. Once I decided not to upgrade. But it used to pop up every now and then and I used to cancel the notification. Once by mistake, I pressed ok and there was no way to cancel the update. Then it bloated my phone(Samsung S4) like anything and phone keeps complaining out of disk space and I have to keep deleting my photos(and also uninstall apps) for getting more and more space for the stupid android it's own junk

thatsdumbson 10y ago

I love how anti-Microsoft articles are still considered "activism" by some people. Does this article contribute to any kind of conversation that hasn't been had a thousand times before on HN?

LoSboccacc 10y ago

Meh. I see many users happy with the free upgrade, and many business badly hurt because they were using the home version instead of a properly configured pro/enterprise. I just don't buy in the hyperbole., besides windows 7 is out of support and windows 8 is going off next year. Those users will be the next in line into botnets. At least microsoft takes backward compatibility seriously and upgrades are relatively painless compared to, say, linux.

sametmax 10y ago
Just because something is not supported anymore doesn't mean you have the right to force people to stop people using it. Windows 7 is not out of support because it's obsolete, it's out of support because of MS commercial strategy.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- origami777 10y ago
  Excellent point. That's the heart of the issue. Changing the terms of the relationship after they've been established. Great way to ruin trust.
  - gengkev 10y ago
    This is exactly my issue with the forced upgrade. With a browser like Chrome, automatic upgrades are there from day one. Everybody expects them, and they happen silently anyway. On the other hand, Windows 7 users never signed up for forced OS upgrades when they purchased the OS. (Especially not an upgrade that downloads gigabytes of data, forces your computer offline for hours, and sometimes even bricks your computer.)
mhurron 10y ago
> windows 7 is out of support Windows 7 is not out of support. It is out of mainstream support which means Microsoft develops and releases no new features for it. Windows 7 is in Extended support until 2020, which means it continues to get security patches, which is really all anyone cares about.

captainmuon 10y ago

To offer a counterpoint, I've had several people in the family who tried to update to windows 10 and couldn't manage to do it - even with all the prompts, nagging, and supposed auto-installation. And hilariously, all you have to do is to press Next a couple of times and wait an hour. I'm one of those people who updated early, and had a lot of problems - with Wifi, touchpad, and incompatible software (Cisco VPN). And still, I'd advocate that Microsoft should just update everything automatically. Yes, it hurts some users (who should be able to opt-out easily!) but is the right option for >95% of home users. Heck, I wouldn't even announce it as a new version. If the user had Windows 7 and updates to the latest windows, keep "Windows 7" in the info box and keep the glass theme (and put the real version in the small-print). Then at some point drop the version number altogether (something I believe MS is planning to do soon anyway), and offer the user to "download the exciting modern theme for free!". The truth is, the difference between Windows 8.1 and 10 is smaller than between some service packs for previous versions. Actually, 10 rolls back some much-hated changes in 8, so it is very close to 7 in some regards. The way I see it, there are two ways to get people to run current Windows: 1) secretly update it under their seats and don't make a fuss about it or 2) make people excited so they really want to upgrade (like 95 or XP). What MS is doing now - show ads and make it look like they have ulterior motives to update your 'perfectly fine' OS - might not be the best solution...

Hermel 10y ago
That approach is not compatible with making users explicitly agree with the new privacy policy that basically allows Microsoft to access your data. So it might have been the corporate lawyers that demanded this to be an upgrade that requires explicit consent.
- captainmuon 10y ago
  True. But most of the changes to the privacy policy are to make Cortana work, which in the current state works like crap for me anyway. If they'd not shove that into their OS, but make it a separate product (that actually worked and not just opened Bing all the time), people would be more willing to sign their terms (and might even pay for it).

origami777 10y ago

The perception of MSFT in the IT Industy has been improving. Seems like it has been largely due to their open source and innovation activities. I have recently competed against MSFT in the field. And I can assure you they are up to their old dirt bag tricks. The one I disliked the most was modifying customer contracts to inflate sales numbers of some of their products. When I see news like this I'm not surprised. Their moves don't seem genuine. Just some PR plan. Putting lipstick on a pig.

cm3 10y ago
While they cannot take back open sourcing some of the core technologies liberally, this doesn't mean their management had to be become friendly as well. Microsoft is so big that it's no wonder that one team does something great for everyone while another team partly voids the improvement by doing something stupid. Windows 8 and 10 have, as usual, improved the kernel and the surrounding subsystems but the stuff on top got worse in many aspects. My conclusion is that Microsoft is in need of a charismatic leader who keeps quality in check and regression to a minimum. Someone who doesn't tolerate the stuff they're pulling right now.

riotdash 10y ago

So funny how few months ago some people were so excited to finally change their unix system to Windows after they revealed the wannabe-unix-support in the Windows 10, but everyone forgot what kind of cancer the Microsoft is and has always been.

snarfy 10y ago

They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Technically they usually are, but then management starts making decisions about what is best. Not what is best for the user, what is best for Microsoft. If they just focused on the users, it would all work itself out. People would want to upgrade. Instead we get to login to our local machine with a Microsoft account, data tracking, etc. These are all things good for Microsoft.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
As far from an MS fanboy as I am, this is one thing I need to disagree on: WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; at least on fresh installs. The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. The botch (which just keeps getting worse) is the forced-by-any-means upgrade; if you have an upgrade path planned, and you're in the middle of testing, having all the workstations pull the rug from under you (because "This is where you want to go today!") is, IMNSHO, borderline criminal. In other words: We had wanted to upgrade. Within weeks. Now we're dug in the trenches, locked down and hoping we didn't miss one of the upgrade backdoors; the upgrade plan is, of course, scrapped altogether. In a sentence: COMPLETE LOSS OF TRUST.
- cm3 10y ago
  The data collectors can be disabled, but MS has renamed services or otherwise introduced remedies to prevent disabling of the collectors, and therefore it's safe to distrust in that regard.
  - dd9990 10y ago
    Only Entreprise customers can fully opt out of all data collection. [1] All other users can only disable a subset and their PCs will submit "Basic Telemetry" regardless of what they do. Microsoft has defended this: " Windows 10 still phones home to Microsoft with telemetry data including an anonymous device ID, information about the type of device that's being used, and data from application crashes. That sort of data has been key to solving problems with the operating system and other applications, according to an explanation published Monday from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Terry Myerson." [1] http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/microsoft-will-let-business-users-opt-out-of-windows-10-tracking.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/m...

someguydave 10y ago

I do not want Windows 10 because Microsoft dropped Windows Media Center support.

dep_b 10y ago

One hand Apple does the same with OS X, where every Mac from 2008 onwards basically still receives free OS updates. On the other hand those OS upgrades are usually barely more than a UI refresh and never seem to cause any problems knocks on wood. I usually wait out half a year or something before upgrading because I don't have any pressing reasons to upgrade, maybe one computer that gets the new version so I can test stuff. Windows seems to change radically with each version. And none of the changes seem to be permanent. At least the OS on my Mac really changed when it changed and then it stayed the same for 15 years again.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
I don't recall being forced to upgrade, though.
2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
Apple adds lots of new features every release. https://www.apple.com/au/osx/whats-new/ https://www.apple.com/au/osx/whats-new/ (I just learnt that I could wiggle my finger really fast to find my lost mouse pointer) I agree that it never really feels like it though. The last big features that really changed/improved things were 2 finger right click and scroll, Spotlight and Time Machine.

milansm 10y ago

When I bought my laptop I got Windows 8.1 with it. I didn't want to delete it immediately so I dual boot Ubuntu and used Windows only occasionally. Then one day I couldn't start Windows because it was stuck in infinite update loop, even though I turned off updates because of those annoying "please update to win 10" messages. Now I run only Ubuntu.

homero 10y ago

Automatic updates are a no go and now they brought it to Windows 7! I feel like they're hacking my computers and now I'm constantly checking that 10 isn't being installed behind my back! It's stressful!

galfarragem 10y ago

I'm one (of several - I'm sure) that updated to Win10 and 2 hours later reverted to Win7. 'Cut your losses' is normally a good advice.

corv 10y ago

I was recently invited to a demo of a complex 3D rig. A couple of days earlier someone must have given in to the Windows 10 update nag. Suffice to say, once the system was on location it never got out of a reboot loop. Fortunately a replacement was on hand but imagining a botched live performance in front of a large audience is cringe inducing. When you see Grandpa running a 'Windows 10 update blocker' and 'Start Menu reverting utility' something must have gone very wrong during UX development, or the company simply doesn't care about its users. On the flip-side, I've never seen recent converts being so happy with their Linux installs, nor have I had so many requests for that "Linux thing". There are use cases where Windows simply doesn't belong, such as digital signage and ATMs. It's a pity many developers keep choosing what they are comfortable with instead of the right tool for the job.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
Digital signage and ATMs? I think the Windows Embedded line is built specifically with these in mind (of course there are non-Windows options as well); hacking and slashing through the desktop Windows would bite you in such use cases :)

melling 10y ago

Microsoft loses credibility? What does that mean? People complain all day on the Internet while Microsoft's desktop monopoly of 90% falls 0.1%? Microsoft has nothing to lose and much to gain by getting more of their customers on the latest version of Windows. In fact, developers, especially web developers, should be excited that Microsoft is upgrading everyone they can.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
That means "OS vendor has a backdoor open in our systems, on purpose" is very bad news. Very, very, very, very bad news. As in "audit noncompliance bad news". This is not a matter of mom-and-pop shops with three computers, or of any interest to the home user, but the fallout might be massive (as in "time to look for a different vendor, can't have that").
- melling 10y ago
  "Might be massive" Thanks for the hyperbole. I guess you used the word "might" so you can't be wrong when nothing changes? As I explained, there won't be any consequences.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Future is sort of hard to predict, at least for me. But you seem significantly more capable thereof; come on, enlighten me! (The "might" expands to this: a retraction of the, ahem, telemetry, and the continuous update policy - at least for the enterprise segment - is one way the MS could avoid this trap it's built for itself; given their behavior to date, I doubt it will)

acqq 10y ago

My example why I can't upgrade and regularly have to fight the updates that try to force me again and again: two notebooks, one older, one relatively recent. Windows 10 breaks things on both. On the older, even if the "Update to 10" says "everything's OK," after the update the machine is so unstable that it gets often stuck and crashes regularly. It has enough RAM, the cause is "officially unsupported" Intel WiFi card that I can't replace with the newer. On the newer notebook, the touchpad remains effectively broken: its sensitivity is different, the scroll areas can't be activated. The screen is somehow also more prone to temporary "burn-in" effects. The notebook is specifically not listed by the manufacturer as "upgradable to Windows 10." Microsoft however forces upgrade again and again. From my point of view, Windows 10 upgrade definitely has problems with notebooks.

berntb 10y ago

Try to Google for the anecdote about a bloody monitor in the bed. I would, with complete confidence, hire Microsoft for SEO... :-)

Pxtl 10y ago

I have win10 on several of my machines and while I think the UI is a nice fix of the lousy win8 UI, thing is buggy as hell. I was getting video driver crashes during sleep and other sleep-of-death bugs on multiple devices, including a Surface. And the file browser crashes a lot.

cm3 10y ago

The update tool claims your system (including drivers and software) is compatible with Windows 10, only later to realize that some hardware doesn't work or an application doesn't start anymore. While these are rare, it's unacceptable to force people to update when it's incompatible to upgrade the existing installation.

greggman 10y ago
Oh yeah, I went through that a few months ago 48 minutes to install only for it to fail, ~70 minutes for it to back out. Then my mistake I hit upgrade again and had to do the entire 128 mins again :( Still on Windows 8.1 on that machine
- gengkev 10y ago
  I have a machine that got stuck at around 42% through the upgrade process and I left it there for a whole day before holding down the power button to shut it off. Then the recovery process started.

cm3 10y ago

Another data point: Windows Media Center is either not available in the to-be-upgraded-to-licensed version of Windows and you have to buy it now, or it's not available anymore, don't remember. But people's HTPC's were updated and there was no Media Center anymore. What did users do? They installed a non-Windows media center solution, completely replacing Windows. This cannot be in Microsoft's interest, unless they want to rid themselves of those users.

ascagnel_ 10y ago
In the US, at least, WMC was the only commercially-available software that supported anything other than copy-freely CableCard programs. So if you were planning on watching Game of Thrones (HBO is usually a channel whose programs are copy-flagged), MS screwed you pretty badly.

JohnTHaller 10y ago

I spent a chunk of yesterday talking my girlfriend's dad through downgrading back to Windows 7 since his laptop had (helpfully) upgraded on him which killed his ability to use QuickBooks to manage his business. Fun fun. At this exact moment, I'm trying to troubleshoot the dreaded "Remote procedure call failed" error on my barely used Windows 10 laptop which breaks all the fake apps (aka Windows store apps) that come bundled with the OS. If you want reliable apps on Windows 10, use real Windows apps not Windows store apps.

athrun 10y ago

Up until about two weeks ago, I thought people were being unreasonably whinny about the changes in Windows 10. This was before I noticed that Candy Crush Saga silently installed itself on my Windows 10 machine. Not only that but it was listed as a running application in the Task Manager. Think about it: the system is silently installing & running third party apps without your consent (!) and there's no option to control that behavior. (This is not me having hallucinations, see [1] for other reports of that behavior). I don't know why it took that long but it seriously compromised any trust I had with the company. [1] https://www.google.ie/search?rls=en&q=windows+10+candy+crush+keeps+installing https://www.google.ie/search?rls=en&q=windows+10+candy+crush...

mikegerwitz 10y ago
https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html
legodt 10y ago
Slight correction, but it doesn't take away from your overall comment: On Windows 10 installs that Candy Crush "app" is actually a silently bundled advertisement/link to manually installing the game. The point about insidiously injecting unwanted data into your computer still stands, but this is a minor difference.
- athrun 10y ago
  Thanks for the correction! I was in panic mode when I found that app listed in the Task Manager, I really thought my computer had been compromised and I uninstalled that app right away without actually looking at it. Glad to know it's 'only' an ad and not arbitrary code. But as you point out, it's still an obvious violation of trust...
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
I have two identical machines sitting in the same room. Upgraded one; other (this one) still running Win7. I used to go back and forth, getting a feel for what is different. The third time resetting the Win10 new browser home-page, new tab page and search engine back to my preferred ones, I began to doubt they had my interests at heart. Now I find myself never using the Win10 machine; its just too much grief and frustration. I don't want to waste time undoing the automatic changes they keep making.

saiya-jin 10y ago

well, since linux is far from easy for most non-tech people and not 100% working for all windows apps, I presume popularity of up-to-date hacked distros will soar. so far i don't see a single reason to move from Win7, and I instructed my fiancee to not interact with any update dialogs on her laptop, just move them outside of screen. Well done, Microsoft, well done

Neil44 10y ago

Most days I'm taking calls from people who's business machines have updated to Windows 10 and something has stopped working. What is the rationalle for forcing people to upgrade the OS on business machines that are mid-life and doing their job perfectly well as is? It's not your decision Microsoft, and you're costing these people money.

arca_vorago 10y ago

I feel like people are losing sightnof the big picture here, which at it's core, Microsoft has always been opposed to user freedom. Windows is a closed source black box that you dont have control of. You can spruce it up all you want, but its the cold hard truth. Foss is the future, so those ofnus freeing ourselves of the clutches of proprietary where we can will be ahead of the game when in 6 months we learn via document leaks, (because those of us paying attention) realize the NSA backdoors are so deep now good luck being a dissident and running doze.

xori 10y ago

While I agree this is a loss of trust I think this is a total logical move from Microsoft. Windows 7 first came out in 2009, and they can't afford to keep supporting an old OS in today's market. And leaving their users with an unsecured OS isn't smart for PR in the long run either. Apple's point of view on this is "upgrade or be left in the cold", which I personally think is worse.

rasz_pl 10y ago

Microsoft is currently transitioning whole desktop division to the Iphone model. They tried to succeed in mobile for 20 years now (CE release) and failed regularly every single time, often times _destroying_ their strategic mobile partners (palm, nortel, very famously sendo, finally nokia). Ballmers last 'brilliant' plan was to kill their own Desktop business in an effort to gain mobile foothold with unified Windows Phone platform. Obviously that didnt work either, backup plan is ... there is no backup plan, they will simply transform desktops into disposable walled garden centrally managed phone systems full of junk apps pushed from the mothership and a steady revenue generated by all the spywar^^^buildin analytics. Microsoft dreams about that 30% cut of every app sold, and they will murder desktop to get it.

cm3 10y ago

What I never got an answer to is how Windows users cope with the abysmally long update times and reboot/update/reboot cycles. Just the process to check for updates takes ages on most machines, regardless of RAM or SSD. On Linux (Debian, Arch, Fedora) or FreeBSD this is just a matter of a couple minutes, applying the upgrade included. This is one of the huge advantages which, if we can show it to Windows users, they might get more envious and ready to try an Ubuntu release. I do understand Microsoft's insistence to allow removing particular upgrades selectively, and that might be used as an argument for the inefficient update system, but if you do that, it's just as easy to leave a broken Windows, so I don't buy it. If Microsoft could at least take some hints from Apple, where you have always just one latest version of a component, it might be step forward. As it stands, you'll have 4 MSVC runtimes, 3 .Net runtimes, and so on, all complicating matters. A little streamlining of their components with an improved update software implementation should do wonders. That said, I'd love read more about this from someone who knows Windows deeper than me, because I cannot believe MS so ignorant of the abysmal update times.