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Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than n

by s3nnyy 10y ago

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the only place where net-salaries are on par with the Bay Area: You can expect to get 7000 - 12000 CHF / month after taxes. If you are from the EU and thinking to move, you find my email address in my Hacknews profile. Also you can read here why I moved to Switzerland to work in IT: https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90#.fnug055jh https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...

stickac 10y ago
You are completely ignoring the fact that the cost of living is much higher in Zurich than the rest of Europe. (For example, the rent is around 10 times higher than in Prague). But after-all, you are a recruiter, why would anyone expect you to provide unbiased information, right?
- s3nnyy 10y ago
  Zurich is not comparable to London, Berlin or Prag due to the fact that it is an order of magnitude smaller than most European cities. The diameter of Zurich is just 13 km. The city itself is tiny and the "city center" is even tinier. This leads to the variance of the rent being very high: In the very center of town you might have to pay 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment, but if you can live also 5 km from the city center, you can have it way cheaper. I am renting a 4-bedroom apartment for 1600 CHF (https://flatfox.ch/de/wohnung/8051-zurich-grosswiesenstrasse/7741/ https://flatfox.ch/de/wohnung/8051-zurich-grosswiesenstrasse...) and I need around 12 minutes to get to Zurich main train station.
  - _nalply 10y ago
    Ah that's Schwamendingen. Well known for a high foreigner percentage (37%). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwamendingen#Bev.C3.B6lkerung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwamendingen#Bev.C3.B6lkerun... (German). To downvoters: please see my comment below. I am not against foreigners.
    - chmars 10y ago
      If you worry about a high percentage of foreigners, you shocks probably stay away from Zurich or Switzerland in general … yep, Schwamendingen is apparently not where the rich live but it looks like a decent place with many green areas around and good public transport.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - _nalply 10y ago
      As a Swiss I also live in a high foreigner area. My sons are playing with children from Peru, Eritrea, Ecuador, Czechia, Sri Lanka and Italy. It's a really nice place to live, there are many children. Additionally, my wife is Asian.
  - tomp 10y ago
    > 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment That's cheap compared to London (zone 1).
    - occamrazor 10y ago
      And completely unrealistic in Zurich. Unless the price refers to a 1-room apartment (which in US English would be a studio, in Switzerland typically all rooms are counted for apt descriptions, a 1-bedroom apt is called a 2- or 2.5-rooms apt)
- crdb 10y ago
  Are you sure about the rent? I rented a 2 bedroom, with windows on 3 sides, next to a park and public transport, and a large balcony with BBQ, for 2 months (so short term let, higher rates), 20 minutes by tram from my office near Seefeld, for 1,500 CHF/month. The landlady did keep my deposit (sorry, "had a professional cleaning done for the exact amount of the deposit", and sent me the detailed list as proof in German which I do not speak), bringing that to 2,250 CHF/month. A quick back of the envelope on real estate inflation since then brings me to around 2,500 CHF/month (1,700 CHF/month if you ignore the deposit trick). That's not as cheap as a small town in Europe but it's quite cheap, I think, for a major international city and definitely when you take into account the starting salaries. Vaguely remembering, a graduate from a good university starting in strategy consulting could expect 90-110,000 CHF/year in Zurich vs 35,000 GBP (49,000 CHF) in London despite higher COL and higher taxes (same companies, which may or may not start with M or B). I have no idea about the numbers in San Francisco but I bet they are not so good either. There's other issues with working in Switzerland if you come from Anglo-Saxon big cities, but COL isn't it if you are paid locally, unless you are dealing with an employer exploiting the unemployment rate in your home country to underpay you substantially (which is definitely the case with some French speaking companies in Geneva).
  - lifeisstillgood 10y ago
    Anecdotally, the cleaning of rented flats in Switzerland is one step down from operating theatres. (While yes the keeping the deposit is a landlord trick the world over, the reasons given are very Swiss) A friend of mine tried to keep their deposit by cleaning it themselves ("took two days and was spotless"). Because the landlady had not got a note from a cleaning firm saying it was clean, she literally could not rent it out again. And so charged my friend for the cleaning firm to come in. They did do a better job :-)
    - njs12345 10y ago
      With regard to deposit scams, the system we have in the UK works pretty well - the landlord must put the deposit in a government-approved escrow scheme, which then decides any disputes over how much of the deposit should be held back (anecdotally quite fairly). If the landlord fails to protect your deposit, and does so in what might be considered bad faith, a court will often order them to pay you 3x the deposit as compensation - so they all end up actually doing it. See https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview
- alexggordon 10y ago
  I'm the one that downvoted you. Rather than simply insulting s3nnyy, pull out some numbers to justify your statement. I suspect s3nnyy is not hiding information, but rather saying the quality of life is worth it. However, it looks like the numbers are pretty comparable. In Germany a software engineer will average 47,500[0] euros a year. judging by this answer[1] I'm guessing your take home is going to be about 28,000 euros (2,333 euros a month), meaning about a 40% tax rate. According to the same website a software engineer in Zurich will make 96,500[2] CHF. Using a swiss salary calculator, your take home in euros is 71,436[3] (5,953 euros a month). Finally, comparing the cost of living, is clear to see that Germany is 50% cheaper[4], but you're making 150% more in Zurich. While my numbers may be the wrong averages to compare, it looks like Zurich is at least pretty comparable. [0] http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [1] https://www.quora.com/Is-45000-euros-per-year-considered-a-good-salary-for-a-single-person-in-Berlin-Germany https://www.quora.com/Is-45000-euros-per-year-considered-a-g... [2] http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/8d55ae7f/Zurich http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [3] http://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/home.html http://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/home.html [4] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&city1=Zurich&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
  - s3nnyy 10y ago
    I don't know what's wrong with lohncomputer.ch, but I get 400 CHF more in net-salary than what they calculate.
    - alexggordon 10y ago
      Yeah, I think I forgot to select Zurich as the Canton of residence. Either way though, that helps my case.
  - delroth 10y ago
    One notable thing here is that even if the proportions are the same, in the end the absolute amount of money you are putting in your savings every month is higher. Or, in other words, if you're going in vacation in a less expensive country, your purchasing power is doubled. 96,500CHF is also a fairly conservative estimate. If you work at e.g. Google, you can reasonably expect twice that amount after 2-3 years working there (factoring in bonuses and stock). The tax rate is also lower compared to Germany, especially when you reach larger sums of money.
- tptacek 10y ago
  The last sentence of your comment, besides adding nothing to your argument, is way out of line for HN.
akerro 10y ago
As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.
- s3nnyy 10y ago
  In Zurich city it is not impossible to buy property, it is just very hard. Everything surrounding Zurich is affordable also for software engineers. I was looking into buying a three room apartment in Effretikon (20 min from Zurich by train) for 370k. I work here for 2 years and could afford the downpayment (20% of the buying price).
  - chinathrow 10y ago
    Parent was posting about buying a house with land. Your example is for a (small) condo - way cheaper than what he was talking about. Edit: Parent was posting about buying a house in Switzerland - and that is really expensive in the surroundings of Zurich. Buying a condo is cheaper in any case - I just made a statement that you can't compare oranges to apples.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Buying a house with land in a city is a very american thing – which is why the focus on a small condo is a lot more realistic. Imagine a city with everyone living in a small house with land, it’d be impossible to live in, as the distances would be far too large.
      - lrem 10y ago
        Have you seen Dublin? ;)
      - etatoby 10y ago
        I think even in the US nobody really buys a house (with land) in the city, but in the suburbs. Big difference and much more similar to the 1 hour drive discussed above.
mhb 10y ago
The price of food in Switzerland was insane when I was there.
- s3nnyy 10y ago
  If you're referring to restaurants, that is because the waitress makes around 4000 CHF per month; if you're referring to food in supermarket that is because the clerk behind the counter gets 25 CHF / hour and not 7 EUR like in Germany.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - illumen 10y ago
    So higher cost of living results in higher prices. Strange that. /s
    - rs999gti 10y ago
      Higher pay too.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    So you're suggesting what, gardening? Gardening is great, but it's not responsive to, "the price of food in Switzerland was insane..."
    - cheald 10y ago
      My sister in Geneva sources a lot of her food out of a community garden.
    - s3nnyy 10y ago
      In Switzerland, imported and unprocessed food is surprisingly cheap. Veggies are maybe 20-30% more expensive than Germany. Processed food like frozen pizza is expensive as a substantial amount of (manual?), well-paid labour goes into convenience food.
Keyframe 10y ago
I don't know about Zurich, but Bern is damn beautiful place to be at. Expensive, as all Switzerland is though.
- stephenhuey 10y ago
  And the Bethlehem area of Bern is affordable and accessible via tram.
dom96 10y ago
You might not be the right person to ask this, but maybe somebody else from Switzerland will be able to. I'm starting a coding internship in Geneva in about two months and I was wondering whether you would have any advice about renting apartments in the area. For example, should I be trying to find apartments in France, or am I better off sticking with Switzerland. Should I be getting in touch with estate agents in the area via phone? Are there any good sites which contain apartment listings? I will be staying there for 12 months so any advice would be much appreciated.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  The real-estate market in Geneva can be pretty daunting. Low supply, high demand, wary landlords... * I wouldn't bother with France unless you're willing to drive and waste a lot of time in traffic jams. Annemasse is the exception, but it's pretty sketchy imho. * On the other hand, living in the countryside can be a good option. Public transportation works better than if you cross the border, and biking to work can be reasonably doable. * Living a bit further in Vaud, near a train station, is a good option too. * Most apartments belong to estate companies (régies immobilières), not individual landlords. Contacting them directly is definitely the way to go. * https://www.scrapeo.com https://www.scrapeo.com (disclaimer: it's run by friends of mine, you can scroll down and see the websites they're scraping if you prefer).
  - dom96 10y ago
    Yeah, from my (admittedly brief) research into apartment listings it does seem rather daunting. I would like to cut down on the amount of travel I need to do every morning, to and from work. But at the same time I am pretty used to it already I guess. I will look into those places and that website, thank you very much!
- DaveSapien 10y ago
  Just a quick bit of advice. Getting a flat from an agent is very hard if you're not friends with them. I've seen this first hand. Bizarrely it can be just as cheap getting an air b&b for a few months at a time. Also it is absolutely worth looking in to a place across the border in France, it's cheaper, not that far away, and public transport is pretty good. I've been here for 6 months or so, but leaving soon... its really not the city for me.
imaginenore 10y ago
Yes, the salaries are higher, but Switzerland is crazy expensive, especially in big cities.
bikamonki 10y ago
What do you mean by direct democracy? Is it a cultural trait or are you actually talking about a system that enforces/delivers direct democracy?
- justifier 10y ago
  Some superficial research will answer your question.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy But essentially a direct democracy is one where the people effect policy instead of electing representatives to do so on their behalf http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/ http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/
alkonaut 10y ago
The story of Switzerland's direct democracy is exaggerated. There is no such thing as a complete direct democracy, even if a few individual questions are decided by popular vote. The only questions you can decide by referendum is things that either have no budgetary consequences or things that set a long term political direction (join the EU, basic income, ...). Anything that has a shorter horizon needs to be tightly coupled to the budget and you can only adopt a complete budget, not decide on individual questions. Once you accept that you only choose between budgetA and budgetB for the next year/term - you also accept that those who write those budgets as propositions are "parties" and you have arrived at parliamentary, not direct, democracy. Most democracies already have referendums on things like this, but still aren't "direct democracies". In short - the Swiss have just slightly more referendums than the rest, but they too have a parliament with parties that propose complete, coherent budgets. I like the idea of slightly more referendums but no country that has a budget with thousands of expenses and thousands of different taxes could be governed only direct votes on each of them (perhaps most importantly because no one is interested in voting on thousands of issues).
- tremon 10y ago
  What are you talking about? Giving every Swiss a basic income definitely has budgetary consequences...
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    There was no actual complete proposal for how to do it. The vote was on whether to look into implementing it.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    So does definitely joining the EU or NATO too - which is why I explicitly listed those as the exceptions as long term political issues. You don't join the EU or adopt BI for a term. Those issues would be referendums in most all EU countries.
- Hermel 10y ago
  That's quite an ignorant view. The solution is simple: keep a reserve, put everything into the budget and don't spend the money if it gets rejected. For example, my local community has liquid assets of about 50 millions and no debt. So if there is a vote on a new school for 20 millions that gets rejected, the 50 millions stay there for future ideas. It's quite simple, really. I find the idea that a budget must always be fully used somewhat strange.
krmboya 10y ago
This is so compelling! I'd like to experience such a place. However being from some part of this planet I googled a few keywords and came across this: https://www.vice.com/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues https://www.vice.com/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues The website features a lot in HN so but I don't know about the quality of their journalism. Anyway, you never know till you try...
- bathory 10y ago
  This seems to be a joke article... I quote: Germany: The Evidence At the time of going to press, a comprehensive reading of the past hundred years of German history showed no documented incidents of any racial bias. Racism Rating 0/5 ehh???
  - zymhan 10y ago
    What could possibly give you that impression? Sometimes I wonder how people can be so oblivious to satire and sarcasm.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
victorantos 10y ago
Just dropped you an email. Thanks!
mixmastamyk 10y ago
The parent posts this pretty regularly, and I followed up with him. Turns out if you are a US citizen it's not going to happen. Not sure why he keeps posting here as a majority of people are in the US, with no warning given. Was mildly annoyed at having my time wasted.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > "If you are from the EU and thinking to move"
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    Ok, looks like he's added that new phrase. I stand corrected.
  - jsprogrammer 10y ago
    You are quoting from the disclaimer section. It led with: >If you look for a coding job in Europe
- coryfklein 10y ago
  > if you are a US citizen it's not going to happen. May I ask why?
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    Countries don't offer jobs to foreigners unless they are desperate. Even when they do, there's a lot of red tape.
mahyarm 10y ago
Total after tax compensation is still better in the bay area although when you compare total compensation at companies like Google and Facebook. So if your in the USA already it's would be a minor downgrade and a huge move. Immigration timelines are also about similar with about 10+ years necessary to become a swiss citizen like in the USA. It's definitely an easier move for an EU citizen to do than the USA although from a family and immigration standpoint. But immigration wise it isn't hard to get an H1B or L1 visa since the hiring company will handle all of it. From there applying for a green card is pretty automatic. For canadian's and australians, it's even easier to immigrate, almost the same amount of work as moving to switzerland for an EU citizen. Indian and Chinese people have a hard time with green cards in the USA because there is per country lineups. The immigration 'lines' for those 2 countries are much longer than any other nationality because of their population sizes. Switzerland or somewhere else in the EU might be more attractive from that standpoint, although I don't know if they implemented something similar there. Cost of living wise CH is definitely more expensive. Housing costs are also close in SF and CH.
jeena 10y ago
This may not come as a suprise to people from the US, but my sister (who lives and works near Zurich) says you have to pay everything yourself. Dentist, doctor, they just got a child and the father got one day off work if i got it correctly, and she only a couple of weeks. Still children stay at home untill they are 5 or something, you just have to pay someone privatly if you want to work. The list goes on and on and on, so from this Bay Area like salery there is only something left if you're young, without children and healthy.
- herbst 10y ago
  This is not exactly true. Doctor is paid by your health care but you usually pay the fees before you get them back (if you can, otherwise you just send it to them and done). Dentists are included in a health care plus plan which you only get when you are already healthy, its not expensive like $40+ a month. You are right that mothership holidays is not that long, in my experience most people just take a month or two off unpaid. If there is anything you can not afford there is a huge social infrastructure to help you out. There is no reason your kids should miss one something. Also dont forget that these salaries include 4 weeks and more paid holidays. All of these things are not included in american health care & social plans ether so i dont know why i even write that comment right now.
notaregular 10y ago
> You can expect to get 7000 - 12000 CHF / month after taxes I get barely 6000 after taxes after working here for almost three years. I'm not Zürich area, but still. Out of curiosity, in which branch are you?
anotherevan 10y ago
> When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say “WE decided that …” whereas e.g., Germans say: “THEY decided that …” Whereas the Australians say: “Look what those bastards have done now …”
stefanix 10y ago
The amount of net-saleries don't tell you much about the standard of living you will have in a certain place. The expenses can be so radically different, especially if you think of ever having a family. Also work hours differ a lot. I have worked at Universities and IT in the US, Switzerland, and Austria. Austria has almost free kindergardens, schools, and higher education. In CH (basel area) I paid 70USD/day/child kindergarden fee. In the US it's quite normal to start saving for your kids education when they are born. US health care is a mess. Even after paying tons of money you have to set money aside for all the times you get screwed over by insurgence companies refusing to pay certain parts of a procedure. If you are honest with yourself you have to subtract this all from your pay check and/or add this when you live in an area that has fail-proof health insurance for under 400 USD/month/family. CH's living expenses are generally very high and most people starting a job there underestimate this. If you think a 40 USD pizza at a normal looking place is insane, you are one of them. Just throwing some pointers out that salaries must be compared in context ...

by s3nnyy 10y ago

stickac 10y ago

You are completely ignoring the fact that the cost of living is much higher in Zurich than the rest of Europe. (For example, the rent is around 10 times higher than in Prague). But after-all, you are a recruiter, why would anyone expect you to provide unbiased information, right?

s3nnyy 10y ago
Zurich is not comparable to London, Berlin or Prag due to the fact that it is an order of magnitude smaller than most European cities. The diameter of Zurich is just 13 km. The city itself is tiny and the "city center" is even tinier. This leads to the variance of the rent being very high: In the very center of town you might have to pay 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment, but if you can live also 5 km from the city center, you can have it way cheaper. I am renting a 4-bedroom apartment for 1600 CHF (https://flatfox.ch/de/wohnung/8051-zurich-grosswiesenstrasse/7741/ https://flatfox.ch/de/wohnung/8051-zurich-grosswiesenstrasse...) and I need around 12 minutes to get to Zurich main train station.
- _nalply 10y ago
  Ah that's Schwamendingen. Well known for a high foreigner percentage (37%). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwamendingen#Bev.C3.B6lkerung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwamendingen#Bev.C3.B6lkerun... (German). To downvoters: please see my comment below. I am not against foreigners.
  - chmars 10y ago
    If you worry about a high percentage of foreigners, you shocks probably stay away from Zurich or Switzerland in general … yep, Schwamendingen is apparently not where the rich live but it looks like a decent place with many green areas around and good public transport.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - _nalply 10y ago
    As a Swiss I also live in a high foreigner area. My sons are playing with children from Peru, Eritrea, Ecuador, Czechia, Sri Lanka and Italy. It's a really nice place to live, there are many children. Additionally, my wife is Asian.
- tomp 10y ago
  > 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment That's cheap compared to London (zone 1).
  - occamrazor 10y ago
    And completely unrealistic in Zurich. Unless the price refers to a 1-room apartment (which in US English would be a studio, in Switzerland typically all rooms are counted for apt descriptions, a 1-bedroom apt is called a 2- or 2.5-rooms apt)
crdb 10y ago
Are you sure about the rent? I rented a 2 bedroom, with windows on 3 sides, next to a park and public transport, and a large balcony with BBQ, for 2 months (so short term let, higher rates), 20 minutes by tram from my office near Seefeld, for 1,500 CHF/month. The landlady did keep my deposit (sorry, "had a professional cleaning done for the exact amount of the deposit", and sent me the detailed list as proof in German which I do not speak), bringing that to 2,250 CHF/month. A quick back of the envelope on real estate inflation since then brings me to around 2,500 CHF/month (1,700 CHF/month if you ignore the deposit trick). That's not as cheap as a small town in Europe but it's quite cheap, I think, for a major international city and definitely when you take into account the starting salaries. Vaguely remembering, a graduate from a good university starting in strategy consulting could expect 90-110,000 CHF/year in Zurich vs 35,000 GBP (49,000 CHF) in London despite higher COL and higher taxes (same companies, which may or may not start with M or B). I have no idea about the numbers in San Francisco but I bet they are not so good either. There's other issues with working in Switzerland if you come from Anglo-Saxon big cities, but COL isn't it if you are paid locally, unless you are dealing with an employer exploiting the unemployment rate in your home country to underpay you substantially (which is definitely the case with some French speaking companies in Geneva).
- lifeisstillgood 10y ago
  Anecdotally, the cleaning of rented flats in Switzerland is one step down from operating theatres. (While yes the keeping the deposit is a landlord trick the world over, the reasons given are very Swiss) A friend of mine tried to keep their deposit by cleaning it themselves ("took two days and was spotless"). Because the landlady had not got a note from a cleaning firm saying it was clean, she literally could not rent it out again. And so charged my friend for the cleaning firm to come in. They did do a better job :-)
  - njs12345 10y ago
    With regard to deposit scams, the system we have in the UK works pretty well - the landlord must put the deposit in a government-approved escrow scheme, which then decides any disputes over how much of the deposit should be held back (anecdotally quite fairly). If the landlord fails to protect your deposit, and does so in what might be considered bad faith, a court will often order them to pay you 3x the deposit as compensation - so they all end up actually doing it. See https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview
alexggordon 10y ago
I'm the one that downvoted you. Rather than simply insulting s3nnyy, pull out some numbers to justify your statement. I suspect s3nnyy is not hiding information, but rather saying the quality of life is worth it. However, it looks like the numbers are pretty comparable. In Germany a software engineer will average 47,500[0] euros a year. judging by this answer[1] I'm guessing your take home is going to be about 28,000 euros (2,333 euros a month), meaning about a 40% tax rate. According to the same website a software engineer in Zurich will make 96,500[2] CHF. Using a swiss salary calculator, your take home in euros is 71,436[3] (5,953 euros a month). Finally, comparing the cost of living, is clear to see that Germany is 50% cheaper[4], but you're making 150% more in Zurich. While my numbers may be the wrong averages to compare, it looks like Zurich is at least pretty comparable. [0] http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [1] https://www.quora.com/Is-45000-euros-per-year-considered-a-good-salary-for-a-single-person-in-Berlin-Germany https://www.quora.com/Is-45000-euros-per-year-considered-a-g... [2] http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/8d55ae7f/Zurich http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [3] http://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/home.html http://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/home.html [4] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&city1=Zurich&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
- s3nnyy 10y ago
  I don't know what's wrong with lohncomputer.ch, but I get 400 CHF more in net-salary than what they calculate.
  - alexggordon 10y ago
    Yeah, I think I forgot to select Zurich as the Canton of residence. Either way though, that helps my case.
- delroth 10y ago
  One notable thing here is that even if the proportions are the same, in the end the absolute amount of money you are putting in your savings every month is higher. Or, in other words, if you're going in vacation in a less expensive country, your purchasing power is doubled. 96,500CHF is also a fairly conservative estimate. If you work at e.g. Google, you can reasonably expect twice that amount after 2-3 years working there (factoring in bonuses and stock). The tax rate is also lower compared to Germany, especially when you reach larger sums of money.
tptacek 10y ago
The last sentence of your comment, besides adding nothing to your argument, is way out of line for HN.

akerro 10y ago

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

s3nnyy 10y ago
In Zurich city it is not impossible to buy property, it is just very hard. Everything surrounding Zurich is affordable also for software engineers. I was looking into buying a three room apartment in Effretikon (20 min from Zurich by train) for 370k. I work here for 2 years and could afford the downpayment (20% of the buying price).
- chinathrow 10y ago
  Parent was posting about buying a house with land. Your example is for a (small) condo - way cheaper than what he was talking about. Edit: Parent was posting about buying a house in Switzerland - and that is really expensive in the surroundings of Zurich. Buying a condo is cheaper in any case - I just made a statement that you can't compare oranges to apples.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Buying a house with land in a city is a very american thing – which is why the focus on a small condo is a lot more realistic. Imagine a city with everyone living in a small house with land, it’d be impossible to live in, as the distances would be far too large.
    - lrem 10y ago
      Have you seen Dublin? ;)
    - etatoby 10y ago
      I think even in the US nobody really buys a house (with land) in the city, but in the suburbs. Big difference and much more similar to the 1 hour drive discussed above.

mhb 10y ago

The price of food in Switzerland was insane when I was there.

s3nnyy 10y ago
If you're referring to restaurants, that is because the waitress makes around 4000 CHF per month; if you're referring to food in supermarket that is because the clerk behind the counter gets 25 CHF / hour and not 7 EUR like in Germany.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- illumen 10y ago
  So higher cost of living results in higher prices. Strange that. /s
  - rs999gti 10y ago
    Higher pay too.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  So you're suggesting what, gardening? Gardening is great, but it's not responsive to, "the price of food in Switzerland was insane..."
  - cheald 10y ago
    My sister in Geneva sources a lot of her food out of a community garden.
  - s3nnyy 10y ago
    In Switzerland, imported and unprocessed food is surprisingly cheap. Veggies are maybe 20-30% more expensive than Germany. Processed food like frozen pizza is expensive as a substantial amount of (manual?), well-paid labour goes into convenience food.

Keyframe 10y ago

I don't know about Zurich, but Bern is damn beautiful place to be at. Expensive, as all Switzerland is though.

stephenhuey 10y ago
And the Bethlehem area of Bern is affordable and accessible via tram.

dom96 10y ago

You might not be the right person to ask this, but maybe somebody else from Switzerland will be able to. I'm starting a coding internship in Geneva in about two months and I was wondering whether you would have any advice about renting apartments in the area. For example, should I be trying to find apartments in France, or am I better off sticking with Switzerland. Should I be getting in touch with estate agents in the area via phone? Are there any good sites which contain apartment listings? I will be staying there for 12 months so any advice would be much appreciated.

hocuspocus 10y ago
The real-estate market in Geneva can be pretty daunting. Low supply, high demand, wary landlords... * I wouldn't bother with France unless you're willing to drive and waste a lot of time in traffic jams. Annemasse is the exception, but it's pretty sketchy imho. * On the other hand, living in the countryside can be a good option. Public transportation works better than if you cross the border, and biking to work can be reasonably doable. * Living a bit further in Vaud, near a train station, is a good option too. * Most apartments belong to estate companies (régies immobilières), not individual landlords. Contacting them directly is definitely the way to go. * https://www.scrapeo.com https://www.scrapeo.com (disclaimer: it's run by friends of mine, you can scroll down and see the websites they're scraping if you prefer).
- dom96 10y ago
  Yeah, from my (admittedly brief) research into apartment listings it does seem rather daunting. I would like to cut down on the amount of travel I need to do every morning, to and from work. But at the same time I am pretty used to it already I guess. I will look into those places and that website, thank you very much!
DaveSapien 10y ago
Just a quick bit of advice. Getting a flat from an agent is very hard if you're not friends with them. I've seen this first hand. Bizarrely it can be just as cheap getting an air b&b for a few months at a time. Also it is absolutely worth looking in to a place across the border in France, it's cheaper, not that far away, and public transport is pretty good. I've been here for 6 months or so, but leaving soon... its really not the city for me.

imaginenore 10y ago

Yes, the salaries are higher, but Switzerland is crazy expensive, especially in big cities.

bikamonki 10y ago

What do you mean by direct democracy? Is it a cultural trait or are you actually talking about a system that enforces/delivers direct democracy?

justifier 10y ago
Some superficial research will answer your question.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy But essentially a direct democracy is one where the people effect policy instead of electing representatives to do so on their behalf http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/ http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/

alkonaut 10y ago

The story of Switzerland's direct democracy is exaggerated. There is no such thing as a complete direct democracy, even if a few individual questions are decided by popular vote. The only questions you can decide by referendum is things that either have no budgetary consequences or things that set a long term political direction (join the EU, basic income, ...). Anything that has a shorter horizon needs to be tightly coupled to the budget and you can only adopt a complete budget, not decide on individual questions. Once you accept that you only choose between budgetA and budgetB for the next year/term - you also accept that those who write those budgets as propositions are "parties" and you have arrived at parliamentary, not direct, democracy. Most democracies already have referendums on things like this, but still aren't "direct democracies". In short - the Swiss have just slightly more referendums than the rest, but they too have a parliament with parties that propose complete, coherent budgets. I like the idea of slightly more referendums but no country that has a budget with thousands of expenses and thousands of different taxes could be governed only direct votes on each of them (perhaps most importantly because no one is interested in voting on thousands of issues).

tremon 10y ago
What are you talking about? Giving every Swiss a basic income definitely has budgetary consequences...
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  There was no actual complete proposal for how to do it. The vote was on whether to look into implementing it.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  So does definitely joining the EU or NATO too - which is why I explicitly listed those as the exceptions as long term political issues. You don't join the EU or adopt BI for a term. Those issues would be referendums in most all EU countries.
Hermel 10y ago
That's quite an ignorant view. The solution is simple: keep a reserve, put everything into the budget and don't spend the money if it gets rejected. For example, my local community has liquid assets of about 50 millions and no debt. So if there is a vote on a new school for 20 millions that gets rejected, the 50 millions stay there for future ideas. It's quite simple, really. I find the idea that a budget must always be fully used somewhat strange.

krmboya 10y ago

This is so compelling! I'd like to experience such a place. However being from some part of this planet I googled a few keywords and came across this: https://www.vice.com/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues https://www.vice.com/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues The website features a lot in HN so but I don't know about the quality of their journalism. Anyway, you never know till you try...

bathory 10y ago
This seems to be a joke article... I quote: Germany: The Evidence At the time of going to press, a comprehensive reading of the past hundred years of German history showed no documented incidents of any racial bias. Racism Rating 0/5 ehh???
- zymhan 10y ago
  What could possibly give you that impression? Sometimes I wonder how people can be so oblivious to satire and sarcasm.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

victorantos 10y ago

Just dropped you an email. Thanks!

mixmastamyk 10y ago

The parent posts this pretty regularly, and I followed up with him. Turns out if you are a US citizen it's not going to happen. Not sure why he keeps posting here as a majority of people are in the US, with no warning given. Was mildly annoyed at having my time wasted.

majewsky 10y ago
> "If you are from the EU and thinking to move"
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  Ok, looks like he's added that new phrase. I stand corrected.
- jsprogrammer 10y ago
  You are quoting from the disclaimer section. It led with: >If you look for a coding job in Europe
coryfklein 10y ago
> if you are a US citizen it's not going to happen. May I ask why?
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  Countries don't offer jobs to foreigners unless they are desperate. Even when they do, there's a lot of red tape.

mahyarm 10y ago

Total after tax compensation is still better in the bay area although when you compare total compensation at companies like Google and Facebook. So if your in the USA already it's would be a minor downgrade and a huge move. Immigration timelines are also about similar with about 10+ years necessary to become a swiss citizen like in the USA. It's definitely an easier move for an EU citizen to do than the USA although from a family and immigration standpoint. But immigration wise it isn't hard to get an H1B or L1 visa since the hiring company will handle all of it. From there applying for a green card is pretty automatic. For canadian's and australians, it's even easier to immigrate, almost the same amount of work as moving to switzerland for an EU citizen. Indian and Chinese people have a hard time with green cards in the USA because there is per country lineups. The immigration 'lines' for those 2 countries are much longer than any other nationality because of their population sizes. Switzerland or somewhere else in the EU might be more attractive from that standpoint, although I don't know if they implemented something similar there. Cost of living wise CH is definitely more expensive. Housing costs are also close in SF and CH.

jeena 10y ago

This may not come as a suprise to people from the US, but my sister (who lives and works near Zurich) says you have to pay everything yourself. Dentist, doctor, they just got a child and the father got one day off work if i got it correctly, and she only a couple of weeks. Still children stay at home untill they are 5 or something, you just have to pay someone privatly if you want to work. The list goes on and on and on, so from this Bay Area like salery there is only something left if you're young, without children and healthy.

herbst 10y ago
This is not exactly true. Doctor is paid by your health care but you usually pay the fees before you get them back (if you can, otherwise you just send it to them and done). Dentists are included in a health care plus plan which you only get when you are already healthy, its not expensive like $40+ a month. You are right that mothership holidays is not that long, in my experience most people just take a month or two off unpaid. If there is anything you can not afford there is a huge social infrastructure to help you out. There is no reason your kids should miss one something. Also dont forget that these salaries include 4 weeks and more paid holidays. All of these things are not included in american health care & social plans ether so i dont know why i even write that comment right now.

notaregular 10y ago

> You can expect to get 7000 - 12000 CHF / month after taxes I get barely 6000 after taxes after working here for almost three years. I'm not Zürich area, but still. Out of curiosity, in which branch are you?

anotherevan 10y ago

> When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say “WE decided that …” whereas e.g., Germans say: “THEY decided that …” Whereas the Australians say: “Look what those bastards have done now …”

stefanix 10y ago

The amount of net-saleries don't tell you much about the standard of living you will have in a certain place. The expenses can be so radically different, especially if you think of ever having a family. Also work hours differ a lot. I have worked at Universities and IT in the US, Switzerland, and Austria. Austria has almost free kindergardens, schools, and higher education. In CH (basel area) I paid 70USD/day/child kindergarden fee. In the US it's quite normal to start saving for your kids education when they are born. US health care is a mess. Even after paying tons of money you have to set money aside for all the times you get screwed over by insurgence companies refusing to pay certain parts of a procedure. If you are honest with yourself you have to subtract this all from your pay check and/or add this when you live in an area that has fail-proof health insurance for under 400 USD/month/family. CH's living expenses are generally very high and most people starting a job there underestimate this. If you think a 40 USD pizza at a normal looking place is insane, you are one of them. Just throwing some pointers out that salaries must be compared in context ...