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This makes sense to me because I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money. As an example, I once had a homele

This makes sense to me because I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money. As an example, I once had a homeless guy ask me for money outside a grocery store. I suggested that we go inside and get him whatever food he wanted, and he said he'd wait for me outside. Sure enough he was gone by the time I returned. I'm fairly certain he only wanted the money for alcohol or drugs. That kind of person doesn't save money for food, they beg for food and use the money for other purposes. If you made the program automatically adjust your BI down when you started accepting food from government programs, that would basically act as the government stepping in for people who just aren't able to handle money.

khedoros 10y ago
As a counter-example, I had a similar experience with a mother and her daughter, except that they were still there when I came back out and were thankful for the food. I'm not saying that they're not bad at managing money (maybe they are), but there are more than one group contained within the label "that kind of person". I've had other experiences with homeless men turning down food when I offered it. I know that my father-in-law would be (and has been, in the past) happy on the street, using his money for cigarettes and gambling with his friends. There are a lot of different kinds of people that would need to be accounted for and different motivations.
- blktiger 10y ago
  Agreed, which is why I prefer to provide goods rather than money. Plus I usually don't carry cash anyway.
  - KC8ZKF 10y ago
    But the alcoholic might need the drink more than food, and the drug addict might need the drugs more than a place to live. Perhaps not being sick for a couple more hours is the best thing for them at that moment. I'm not suggesting that you are under some moral obligation to buy them drugs, only that not giving them anything is not a moral position in itself.
    - DrScump 10y ago
      <But the alcoholic might need the drink more than food, and the drug addict might need the drugs more than a place to live.> You are confusing want with need. And if you feed/encourage harmful behaviors, you are enabling them and ultimately condemning the recipient. EDIT: I think the downvoters here like keeping addicts in place to have someone to feel superior to, rather than helping them confront self-destructive behaviors and realize their potential. I think it's an unnecessary tragedy.
      - jacalata 10y ago
        Did you know you can die from cold turkey withdrawal on some drugs, including alcohol? Do you consider that irrelevant to "need"?
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - amake 10y ago
        I think you don't actually understand the needs vs wants of the people you're talking about.
        imtringued 10y ago
        The only thing I've understood is that they don't want help.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - eru 10y ago
      There are some "Managed Alcohol Programmes" that give out alcohol to the homeless (and encourage them to cut back). http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-01/ezard-homelessness-and-alcohol/7130482 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-01/ezard-homelessness-and...
davemel37 10y ago
Dave Ramsey always says, and I'm paraphrasing, "Someones financial health is 80% behavior and 20% circumstances.
- ada1981 10y ago
  Behavior seems to be about 80% circumstances.
  - ar_turnbull 10y ago
    And the other 20% is learned based on past circumstances.
  - davemel37 10y ago
    "Seems to be" being the operative word. In reality, behavior is rooted in will and circumstances is how it manifests itself. Anything other than focusing on the core drives and desires of man is superficial at best and wasted at worst.
- johanneskanybal 10y ago
  Understandable point of view comming from a man selling books how to change your behaviour towards money :p In general I can't even begin to take the statement serious though.
  - davemel37 10y ago
    Considering behavior is the only thing in your control, how can you take anything but it seriously?!
- dclowd9901 10y ago
  Dave Ramsey has ascribed to an unbelievably unrealistic view of peoples' responsibilities for their financial outcomes, as well as what they should sacrifice to be solvent. All this coming from a huckster who sells rainbow snake oil. We live in a world now where we get half the porridge our parents did, and he's teaching us how to starve and hide porridge in our pockets for rainy days. He's part of the problem and a distraction.
ams6110 10y ago
I'm fairly certain he only wanted the money for alcohol or drugs. Of course he did. Never, never, never, ever give money to panhandlers.
- nothrabannosir 10y ago
  Unless you don't mind people using your money for alcohol or drugs. Not being flippant; there's a reason this sign exists: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/70/85/86708570fa97b1a3a3fa072f7c32b7a5.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/70/85/86708570f... and many more alike.
  - DrScump 10y ago
    My favorite sign was by a regular outside AT&T Park in SF: "MY WIFE IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE AND I NEED $10 MORE FOR THE RANSOM!"
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ncallaway 10y ago
> I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money. I think this depends on what you mean by "rely on". I could see many people who are very capable of managing their money relying on BI to allow them to take behaviors that would be risky in the absence of BI. For example, a college student who is choosing between starting a small business or interviewing at larger companies may significantly rely on the BI when deciding to start their business. However I agree that, when viewing BI as a safety net, those who would need it are disproportionately likely to also need help managing the money.
jimbokun 10y ago
"This makes sense to me because I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money." This belief is the underpinning for most current welfare systems, but is there any evidence supporting it? Some citations to studies indicating the opposite is true: https://givedirectly.org/research-on-cash-transfers https://givedirectly.org/research-on-cash-transfers
- danielweber 10y ago
  > dozens of high-quality evaluations of cash transfer programs spanning Africa, Asia, and Latin America and including both unconditional and conditional cash transfer The richer the society you live in, the more it becomes lbhe snhyg[1] that you are poor. Imagine how hard you would have to work to be homeless in the world of Star Trek TNG, for example. [1] I rot13'd that text because it's not the best expression, and it might knock some people off, but I don't have time to euphemize things for adults.
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    Yeesh just put it in scare quotes next time. Rot13 doesn't make it any less offensive to those who would be offended and just makes it more annoying to read for everyone.
marssaxman 10y ago
So what if he did buy booze with it? I buy booze with my money and there's nothing wrong with that. If someone asks me for money, and I feel inclined to give it, the money becomes theirs, and why shouldn't they spend it on whatever seems like the best choice for their circumstances? And what gives me the right to decide what that best choice would be? I'm not living that life. Maybe a bottle of whiskey really would offer the most comfort per dollar. That's pretty sad, but why judge the person making the choice? Judge the situation offering them that choice instead.
- danielweber 10y ago
  Because he was trying to help, and not doing a philosophical life-experience exercise
  - marssaxman 10y ago
    Then why all the philosophy about what "kind of person" he was and whether he would use the money "for other purposes"? If someone asks me for money, and I give them money, it becomes their money, and it is none of my business what they choose to do with it, any more than it is any of their business (or yours!) what I would have done with it if I kept it. Otherwise, you're not really giving them help, you're taking some amount of control over their life.
    - iprateek 10y ago
      "If someone asks me for money, and I give them money, it becomes their money, and it is none of my business what they choose to do with it" It isn't if your idea of help is unconditional donation. But is there anything wrong if I see donations as investments (in society) with expected returns on the same? Would I be wrong in trying to maximize my returns?
      - Retra 10y ago
        Do you think activities that magnify your personal influence over others is an honest improvement in society?

khedoros 10y ago

As a counter-example, I had a similar experience with a mother and her daughter, except that they were still there when I came back out and were thankful for the food. I'm not saying that they're not bad at managing money (maybe they are), but there are more than one group contained within the label "that kind of person". I've had other experiences with homeless men turning down food when I offered it. I know that my father-in-law would be (and has been, in the past) happy on the street, using his money for cigarettes and gambling with his friends. There are a lot of different kinds of people that would need to be accounted for and different motivations.

blktiger 10y ago
Agreed, which is why I prefer to provide goods rather than money. Plus I usually don't carry cash anyway.
- KC8ZKF 10y ago
  But the alcoholic might need the drink more than food, and the drug addict might need the drugs more than a place to live. Perhaps not being sick for a couple more hours is the best thing for them at that moment. I'm not suggesting that you are under some moral obligation to buy them drugs, only that not giving them anything is not a moral position in itself.
  - DrScump 10y ago
    <But the alcoholic might need the drink more than food, and the drug addict might need the drugs more than a place to live.> You are confusing want with need. And if you feed/encourage harmful behaviors, you are enabling them and ultimately condemning the recipient. EDIT: I think the downvoters here like keeping addicts in place to have someone to feel superior to, rather than helping them confront self-destructive behaviors and realize their potential. I think it's an unnecessary tragedy.
    - jacalata 10y ago
      Did you know you can die from cold turkey withdrawal on some drugs, including alcohol? Do you consider that irrelevant to "need"?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - amake 10y ago
      I think you don't actually understand the needs vs wants of the people you're talking about.
      - imtringued 10y ago
        The only thing I've understood is that they don't want help.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - eru 10y ago
    There are some "Managed Alcohol Programmes" that give out alcohol to the homeless (and encourage them to cut back). http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-01/ezard-homelessness-and-alcohol/7130482 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-01/ezard-homelessness-and...

davemel37 10y ago

Dave Ramsey always says, and I'm paraphrasing, "Someones financial health is 80% behavior and 20% circumstances.

ada1981 10y ago
Behavior seems to be about 80% circumstances.
- ar_turnbull 10y ago
  And the other 20% is learned based on past circumstances.
- davemel37 10y ago
  "Seems to be" being the operative word. In reality, behavior is rooted in will and circumstances is how it manifests itself. Anything other than focusing on the core drives and desires of man is superficial at best and wasted at worst.
johanneskanybal 10y ago
Understandable point of view comming from a man selling books how to change your behaviour towards money :p In general I can't even begin to take the statement serious though.
- davemel37 10y ago
  Considering behavior is the only thing in your control, how can you take anything but it seriously?!
dclowd9901 10y ago
Dave Ramsey has ascribed to an unbelievably unrealistic view of peoples' responsibilities for their financial outcomes, as well as what they should sacrifice to be solvent. All this coming from a huckster who sells rainbow snake oil. We live in a world now where we get half the porridge our parents did, and he's teaching us how to starve and hide porridge in our pockets for rainy days. He's part of the problem and a distraction.

ams6110 10y ago

I'm fairly certain he only wanted the money for alcohol or drugs. Of course he did. Never, never, never, ever give money to panhandlers.

nothrabannosir 10y ago
Unless you don't mind people using your money for alcohol or drugs. Not being flippant; there's a reason this sign exists: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/70/85/86708570fa97b1a3a3fa072f7c32b7a5.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/70/85/86708570f... and many more alike.
- DrScump 10y ago
  My favorite sign was by a regular outside AT&T Park in SF: "MY WIFE IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE AND I NEED $10 MORE FOR THE RANSOM!"
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

ncallaway 10y ago

> I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money. I think this depends on what you mean by "rely on". I could see many people who are very capable of managing their money relying on BI to allow them to take behaviors that would be risky in the absence of BI. For example, a college student who is choosing between starting a small business or interviewing at larger companies may significantly rely on the BI when deciding to start their business. However I agree that, when viewing BI as a safety net, those who would need it are disproportionately likely to also need help managing the money.

jimbokun 10y ago

"This makes sense to me because I have a feeling most people who would need to rely on BI also have a problem managing money." This belief is the underpinning for most current welfare systems, but is there any evidence supporting it? Some citations to studies indicating the opposite is true: https://givedirectly.org/research-on-cash-transfers https://givedirectly.org/research-on-cash-transfers

danielweber 10y ago
> dozens of high-quality evaluations of cash transfer programs spanning Africa, Asia, and Latin America and including both unconditional and conditional cash transfer The richer the society you live in, the more it becomes lbhe snhyg[1] that you are poor. Imagine how hard you would have to work to be homeless in the world of Star Trek TNG, for example. [1] I rot13'd that text because it's not the best expression, and it might knock some people off, but I don't have time to euphemize things for adults.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  Yeesh just put it in scare quotes next time. Rot13 doesn't make it any less offensive to those who would be offended and just makes it more annoying to read for everyone.

marssaxman 10y ago

So what if he did buy booze with it? I buy booze with my money and there's nothing wrong with that. If someone asks me for money, and I feel inclined to give it, the money becomes theirs, and why shouldn't they spend it on whatever seems like the best choice for their circumstances? And what gives me the right to decide what that best choice would be? I'm not living that life. Maybe a bottle of whiskey really would offer the most comfort per dollar. That's pretty sad, but why judge the person making the choice? Judge the situation offering them that choice instead.

danielweber 10y ago
Because he was trying to help, and not doing a philosophical life-experience exercise
- marssaxman 10y ago
  Then why all the philosophy about what "kind of person" he was and whether he would use the money "for other purposes"? If someone asks me for money, and I give them money, it becomes their money, and it is none of my business what they choose to do with it, any more than it is any of their business (or yours!) what I would have done with it if I kept it. Otherwise, you're not really giving them help, you're taking some amount of control over their life.
  - iprateek 10y ago
    "If someone asks me for money, and I give them money, it becomes their money, and it is none of my business what they choose to do with it" It isn't if your idea of help is unconditional donation. But is there anything wrong if I see donations as investments (in society) with expected returns on the same? Would I be wrong in trying to maximize my returns?
    - Retra 10y ago
      Do you think activities that magnify your personal influence over others is an honest improvement in society?