11 ms·

Student Debt Dodgers: Americans Who Moved to Europe

45 points by kushti 10y ago

wrong_variable 10y ago
This is a good thing. Its going to put downward pressure in the price of education. We really need an international market for education.
dragontamer 10y ago
The guy with $160k in student loans had his parents cosign his student loans and then left the country. What a jackass. Leaving all of that debt for his parents to figure out, while he ran away from it all.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Totally agree!
- Phlarp 10y ago
  This is painting with a broad brush-- 160k in student debt is on the higher end of the spectrum, even for individuals who pursue secondary degrees (MD, JD, MBA, etc) or choose to pursue programs at for profit schools. Perhaps this individual was pressured heavily at 17 and 18 (by parents, guidance counselors or whomever else was in a position of authority over them as a young adult) to jump on the bandwagon and before they were old enough to assess the value of the education being provided for themselves, it was too late. Why on earth anyone would think an 18 year old is mature enough to sign away six digits worth of debt but not drink a beer is just boggling to me. Another point to consider is that many young people believe their parents (and their parents generation as a whole) signed up to pay these costs: both when they chose to become parents and when they collectively chose to slash public funding to universities.
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    > Another point to consider is that many young people believe their parents (and their parents generation as a whole) signed up to pay these costs: both when they chose to become parents and when they collectively chose to slash public funding to universities. Your parents have no obligation to pay for you through college. Nice parents do so. But there's certainly no "obligation". And if your parents cosign a loan for you, I would hope that you would at least have the personal honor to help your parents with the financial issue, rather than run away to Germany. Or at very least, run away WITH your parents, together. The fact that he's separated from his parents speaks volumes about the situation. His relationship with his family has been likely stressed due to this debt issue. ----------------- I think I'm mostly on the side of the students throughout the article. But in this particular case, the person's behavior is so egregious I felt like it needed to be pointed out.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  I have to say I don't even understand how one could amas a small house worth of student debts. In the article it hints at $30K a year. That sounds like a LOT of money, and then five years of education give you the $160K. I can kind of understand medical school costing that kind of figure, but I cannot see how an undergrad degree could cost that. Mine was approx $8K/year or $24K over three years. Still a LOT of money, but compared to his $30K/year, $160K total it is chump change.
  - hanklazard 10y ago
    Just a quick data point for you: Most of the "top 20" universities that I was looking at 10+ years ago were going to total more than $40k in loans per year, and that was prior to the insane educational inflation we've seen more recently.
  - douche 10y ago
    My alma mater has climbed up to nearly 70k/year as of this year... It's completely nuts, but if you didn't get that chopped down by financial aid grants and had to pay it all via loans, it wouldn't take long to get ridiculously in hock. Even better, it's up 20% from when I graduated, just a few years ago... Gotta pay those six-figure salaries for assistant deans of XYZ, $25/hr cafeteria workers and security forces to make sure adult students aren't drinking hard alcohol somehow. I laugh and hang up the phone when they call up and dun me for alumni donations.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Is it remotely worth it to take out $50k a year in loans to go there?
      - douche 10y ago
        I would say no... It's a prestigious name to have on the piece of paper, but I'm not sure that's worth starting out in life with a full mortgage-worth of debt... I think I'd have had to double down and go through the I-banking/consulting/doctor/lawyer track to try to dig out, rather than go into something I actually kind of enjoy. I was poor enough that the financial aid made it a better decision - something like 3-5k more per year than going to my state university, which doesn't look anywhere near as good on a resume.
charlesdm 10y ago
If these are federal, government issued loans, can't those be collected via the IRS? And can't the IRS block renewing your passport when living abroad? Some countries have those kinds of laws. That seems like an effective way to collect on the debt. (Not that I'm pro student debt: I live in a country with free higher education, and I don't think it's healthy to have to start your life with massive amounts of debt. )
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  Yes they can. Usually this is done by taking your tax refund to pay off tax debts you may have. They can also garnish your wages to pay the debt off. There are also professional boards that can/will revoke your professional license if necessary. This is a type of loan that can't be discharged through bankruptcy either. Best plan is to contact the Dept. of Education and set up a payment plan. Even if you're paying $20/month it will keep you off the radar of the government looking to collect on your student loans
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    No, they can't. The IRS will turn over any funds due to you to the DOE, but they won't pursue the debt itself for them (a collections agency does so), nor will the IRS prevent you from renewing a passport over student loans. Disclaimer: Helped a friend negotiate ~$100K in defaulted student loans down to ~$10K while he was out of the country.
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      Smart move - better to take the $10k than never to see the $100k! That's essentially what all these people should be doing.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        This is exactly how all creditors work. You approach it as such: "I have X for you now (with X being about 1/10 of the total obligation). You either take that, or you get nothing." To be able to do this, you must have X, and you must be able to negotiate from a position of power (it has to be very difficult for them to collect).
kin 10y ago
I'm not pro-student debt, but all of the stories in this article are super irresponsible to me. All of my friends and I graduated at the worst time possible, shortly after the 2008 crash. It was a terrible time to enter the job market (unless you were a developer, but still, salaries were low and I worked hard to earn what I do now which apparently is now just considered market-rate). Anyway, all the english majors and political science majors etc struggled to find jobs, but they found shitty jobs nonetheless. They chipped away at their loans, changed it to lower payments, or just paid interest for a while. Where are they now 5 years later? Their loans are mostly paid off and they're in better jobs. My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work. The stories where their parents have to deal with phone calls are especially bad.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work. The ol' puritanical work ethic. No, you need to make the best business choice. If a corporation defaults, no one cares. But your degree is worthless or provides you no benefit? You never get away from it. When you can walk away, walk away. Its okay for the Fed to QE till the cows come home to prop up asset bubbles, but not okay for the US DOE to forgive loans on educations that have little value? Please. I guess it just comes down to the type of slavery you want for the next generation. At least you have the option of not buying a home or equities in inflated markets, but garnishing your wages or your tax returns forever? We should be shocked about those who don't emigrate to countries that treat them better. I'm very surprised first world countries with declining populations haven't made an active advertising/outreach effort to appeal to young US graduates with large amounts of debt.
  - pkaye 10y ago
    Do you think it would be best to start denying loans for education for worthless degrees?
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
kin 10y ago
I'm not pro-student debt. This all needs to change but all of the stories in this article are super irresponsible to me. All of my friends and I graduated at the worst time possible, shortly after the 2008 crash. It was a terrible time to enter the job market (unless you were a developer, but still, salaries were low and I worked hard to earn to earn what I do now which apparently is now just considered market-rate). Anyway, all the english majors and political science majors struggled to find jobs, but they found shitty jobs nonetheless. They chipped away at their loans, changed it to lower payments, or just paid interest. Where are they now 5 years later? Their loans are paid off and they're in better jobs. My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work.
pklausler 10y ago
Whiny deadbeats.
marknutter 10y ago
But how will they vote for Bernie if they're living overseas?
- tomc1985 10y ago
  Vote by mail?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Overseas absentee voting. In done states, you don't have to have ever lived in the US (the exact rules differ, even among those states.) https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter
jkot 10y ago
Article is missing the main point: in Europe student loan can be legally discharged through bankruptcy.
- yardie 10y ago
  In "Europe" student loans are almost unheard of. Some of "Europe" will pay for tuition and living expenses like its your full time job. Student loans in "Europe" are treated like any other line of credit. You walk into a bank and ask for one. If it doesn't work out you can discharge it through bankruptcy like any other loan.
  - jkot 10y ago
    Student loan from US.
edko 10y ago
As a European, I am starting to think that we should build a wall, and make the US pay for it, to prevent all of these people from coming in. It is not their best people they send us: it's the ones that default on their loans! Wake up Europe! Let's make Europe great again!
- MrMullen 10y ago
  You know, Erwin Rommel tried that and we still got in.
  - edko 10y ago
    The sad thing is that humankind didn't seem to have learnt much from that experience.
- centizen 10y ago
  I have to wonder how these debt refugees are getting their requests approved. Is German border policy lax enough that "I don't want to pay my debt" is enough to get citizenship?
  - yardie 10y ago
    Live there 2 years, problem free, and have a decent understanding of the German language and citizenship is almost guaranteed. Also helps to be from the right countries (US, Can, Aus, NZ, Western Europe).
    - unprepare 10y ago
      Can you just live there for 2 years with no prior authorization? Dont you need an extended work visa in order to work for that long?
      - yardie 10y ago
        No. You need an immigrant visa. These aren't impossible to get just most Americans don't want to do the research or jump through the hoops to do it. Just like the US, most of Europe does not want new immigrants to be a drain on their social services. If you can find a job before you apply or have a very large bank account it's almost a give they'll give you a visa. A popular option is to get your TOEFL certificate and become an english teacher. Others are get a student visa or marry a EU citizen.
jboles 10y ago
The sense of selfish entitlement shown by these people is simply staggering.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  I have relegated myself to thinking this is another generational shift. I see it across the board with my nephew, his friends and the young people I talk to everyday. At first I really felt like I was just being the "old guy" and thought my parents probably said the same thing about me. Now, I just accept this as the new normal for this generation. To me, it's sad when you see kids with no sense of responsibility and have no drive to earn anything in their life. EDIT: Yes, I know most generations usually give off an air of irresponsibility (baby boomers, hippies, Gen X, Gen Y) but this generation is so inwardly focused and lacks any kind of responsibility, it's borderline alarming.
  - jboles 10y ago
    I suspect it is also a cultural (American) thing. I'm 31 and these people are an embarrassment to my generation.
  - HelloMcFly 10y ago
    The only difference between this generation and the last is that there is more visibility into creative opportunities you can make to benefit yourself, and a louder platform to stand on once you've made those decisions. Thinking that this is the generation that truly - for real this time - is just so much more flighty and irresponsible than the others is simply narrative fallacy. And in response to your other reply noting this is a "cultural (American)" thing: well yes, because American student debt is not common in other countries. I'd argue it's likely more national than cultural, as it's driven by external context. That's my two-cents, and they come from someone who naysays most of the non-evidenced-based comments spouted about Millenials.
thisone 10y ago
It would have been more interesting to interview those of us who live in Europe and still manage to pay our US student loans. It's a giant pain in the ass, from lenders who have no way of taking payment from anything but a US bank account, lenders who's systems can't handle a foreign address, and lenders who you can only pay via PayPal. I think my favourite was the lender who told me to wire the money to a friend in the US and then they could pay my loan for me...
mywittyname 10y ago
> "The federal government doesn't have really strong tools for collecting debt from people who move overseas," For now...The US government successfully pressured foreign governments into adopting banking reforms that make it a significant burden for an American to control a foreign bank account. So, it's safe to assume that the USG is capable of compelling foreign banks to hand over the assets of persons in default of their DoE loans. Private loans are another matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if private lenders find a way around this. International banks have deep pockets and can probably buy up the debt of these fleers for pennies on the dollar.
joesmo 10y ago
I agree with the student who says it's an act of civil disobedience. Many of these companies should not exist after fucking up our economy, yet it's the students who have to pay them back? That bailout money could have gone to education, yet it went to prop up these criminal entities. And the federal government? Like they give a fuck about anything but money. Please. If they cared about the actual people living in this country, education would be free. Nothing is owed. Not to mention the absurd amount of taxes everyone pays for war and other bullshit that's unnecessary. The people want education, not war, and the government and our society has failed them. I understand there's a lot of stupid people in this country, but there's also a lot of people who want to actually make something of themselves and they shouldn't be held back by the idiots.
draw_down 10y ago
When corporations move across state lines to avoid their tax burden, it's good business. When people move to avoid a debt burden, it's deplorable.
- damptowel 10y ago
  Laws don't apply to you if you're wealthy enough. It gets especially fun geopolitically. You can force countries to take out new loans to repay older ones, even when they cannot meet their interest payments, paint them in the media as lazy, ignorant and irresponsible. Why invade a country when you have the IMF?

45 points by kushti 10y ago

This is a good thing. Its going to put downward pressure in the price of education. We really need an international market for education.

dragontamer 10y ago

The guy with $160k in student loans had his parents cosign his student loans and then left the country. What a jackass. Leaving all of that debt for his parents to figure out, while he ran away from it all.

charlesdm 10y ago
Totally agree!
Phlarp 10y ago
This is painting with a broad brush-- 160k in student debt is on the higher end of the spectrum, even for individuals who pursue secondary degrees (MD, JD, MBA, etc) or choose to pursue programs at for profit schools. Perhaps this individual was pressured heavily at 17 and 18 (by parents, guidance counselors or whomever else was in a position of authority over them as a young adult) to jump on the bandwagon and before they were old enough to assess the value of the education being provided for themselves, it was too late. Why on earth anyone would think an 18 year old is mature enough to sign away six digits worth of debt but not drink a beer is just boggling to me. Another point to consider is that many young people believe their parents (and their parents generation as a whole) signed up to pay these costs: both when they chose to become parents and when they collectively chose to slash public funding to universities.
- dragontamer 10y ago
  > Another point to consider is that many young people believe their parents (and their parents generation as a whole) signed up to pay these costs: both when they chose to become parents and when they collectively chose to slash public funding to universities. Your parents have no obligation to pay for you through college. Nice parents do so. But there's certainly no "obligation". And if your parents cosign a loan for you, I would hope that you would at least have the personal honor to help your parents with the financial issue, rather than run away to Germany. Or at very least, run away WITH your parents, together. The fact that he's separated from his parents speaks volumes about the situation. His relationship with his family has been likely stressed due to this debt issue. ----------------- I think I'm mostly on the side of the students throughout the article. But in this particular case, the person's behavior is so egregious I felt like it needed to be pointed out.
Someone1234 10y ago
I have to say I don't even understand how one could amas a small house worth of student debts. In the article it hints at $30K a year. That sounds like a LOT of money, and then five years of education give you the $160K. I can kind of understand medical school costing that kind of figure, but I cannot see how an undergrad degree could cost that. Mine was approx $8K/year or $24K over three years. Still a LOT of money, but compared to his $30K/year, $160K total it is chump change.
- hanklazard 10y ago
  Just a quick data point for you: Most of the "top 20" universities that I was looking at 10+ years ago were going to total more than $40k in loans per year, and that was prior to the insane educational inflation we've seen more recently.
- douche 10y ago
  My alma mater has climbed up to nearly 70k/year as of this year... It's completely nuts, but if you didn't get that chopped down by financial aid grants and had to pay it all via loans, it wouldn't take long to get ridiculously in hock. Even better, it's up 20% from when I graduated, just a few years ago... Gotta pay those six-figure salaries for assistant deans of XYZ, $25/hr cafeteria workers and security forces to make sure adult students aren't drinking hard alcohol somehow. I laugh and hang up the phone when they call up and dun me for alumni donations.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Is it remotely worth it to take out $50k a year in loans to go there?
    - douche 10y ago
      I would say no... It's a prestigious name to have on the piece of paper, but I'm not sure that's worth starting out in life with a full mortgage-worth of debt... I think I'd have had to double down and go through the I-banking/consulting/doctor/lawyer track to try to dig out, rather than go into something I actually kind of enjoy. I was poor enough that the financial aid made it a better decision - something like 3-5k more per year than going to my state university, which doesn't look anywhere near as good on a resume.

charlesdm 10y ago

If these are federal, government issued loans, can't those be collected via the IRS? And can't the IRS block renewing your passport when living abroad? Some countries have those kinds of laws. That seems like an effective way to collect on the debt. (Not that I'm pro student debt: I live in a country with free higher education, and I don't think it's healthy to have to start your life with massive amounts of debt. )

at-fates-hands 10y ago
Yes they can. Usually this is done by taking your tax refund to pay off tax debts you may have. They can also garnish your wages to pay the debt off. There are also professional boards that can/will revoke your professional license if necessary. This is a type of loan that can't be discharged through bankruptcy either. Best plan is to contact the Dept. of Education and set up a payment plan. Even if you're paying $20/month it will keep you off the radar of the government looking to collect on your student loans
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  No, they can't. The IRS will turn over any funds due to you to the DOE, but they won't pursue the debt itself for them (a collections agency does so), nor will the IRS prevent you from renewing a passport over student loans. Disclaimer: Helped a friend negotiate ~$100K in defaulted student loans down to ~$10K while he was out of the country.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Smart move - better to take the $10k than never to see the $100k! That's essentially what all these people should be doing.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      This is exactly how all creditors work. You approach it as such: "I have X for you now (with X being about 1/10 of the total obligation). You either take that, or you get nothing." To be able to do this, you must have X, and you must be able to negotiate from a position of power (it has to be very difficult for them to collect).

kin 10y ago

I'm not pro-student debt, but all of the stories in this article are super irresponsible to me. All of my friends and I graduated at the worst time possible, shortly after the 2008 crash. It was a terrible time to enter the job market (unless you were a developer, but still, salaries were low and I worked hard to earn what I do now which apparently is now just considered market-rate). Anyway, all the english majors and political science majors etc struggled to find jobs, but they found shitty jobs nonetheless. They chipped away at their loans, changed it to lower payments, or just paid interest for a while. Where are they now 5 years later? Their loans are mostly paid off and they're in better jobs. My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work. The stories where their parents have to deal with phone calls are especially bad.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
> My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work. The ol' puritanical work ethic. No, you need to make the best business choice. If a corporation defaults, no one cares. But your degree is worthless or provides you no benefit? You never get away from it. When you can walk away, walk away. Its okay for the Fed to QE till the cows come home to prop up asset bubbles, but not okay for the US DOE to forgive loans on educations that have little value? Please. I guess it just comes down to the type of slavery you want for the next generation. At least you have the option of not buying a home or equities in inflated markets, but garnishing your wages or your tax returns forever? We should be shocked about those who don't emigrate to countries that treat them better. I'm very surprised first world countries with declining populations haven't made an active advertising/outreach effort to appeal to young US graduates with large amounts of debt.
- pkaye 10y ago
  Do you think it would be best to start denying loans for education for worthless degrees?
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago

kin 10y ago

I'm not pro-student debt. This all needs to change but all of the stories in this article are super irresponsible to me. All of my friends and I graduated at the worst time possible, shortly after the 2008 crash. It was a terrible time to enter the job market (unless you were a developer, but still, salaries were low and I worked hard to earn to earn what I do now which apparently is now just considered market-rate). Anyway, all the english majors and political science majors struggled to find jobs, but they found shitty jobs nonetheless. They chipped away at their loans, changed it to lower payments, or just paid interest. Where are they now 5 years later? Their loans are paid off and they're in better jobs. My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to learn some form of hardship or hard work.

pklausler 10y ago

Whiny deadbeats.

marknutter 10y ago

But how will they vote for Bernie if they're living overseas?

tomc1985 10y ago
Vote by mail?
dragonwriter 10y ago
Overseas absentee voting. In done states, you don't have to have ever lived in the US (the exact rules differ, even among those states.) https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter

jkot 10y ago

Article is missing the main point: in Europe student loan can be legally discharged through bankruptcy.

yardie 10y ago
In "Europe" student loans are almost unheard of. Some of "Europe" will pay for tuition and living expenses like its your full time job. Student loans in "Europe" are treated like any other line of credit. You walk into a bank and ask for one. If it doesn't work out you can discharge it through bankruptcy like any other loan.
- jkot 10y ago
  Student loan from US.

edko 10y ago

As a European, I am starting to think that we should build a wall, and make the US pay for it, to prevent all of these people from coming in. It is not their best people they send us: it's the ones that default on their loans! Wake up Europe! Let's make Europe great again!

MrMullen 10y ago
You know, Erwin Rommel tried that and we still got in.
- edko 10y ago
  The sad thing is that humankind didn't seem to have learnt much from that experience.
centizen 10y ago
I have to wonder how these debt refugees are getting their requests approved. Is German border policy lax enough that "I don't want to pay my debt" is enough to get citizenship?
- yardie 10y ago
  Live there 2 years, problem free, and have a decent understanding of the German language and citizenship is almost guaranteed. Also helps to be from the right countries (US, Can, Aus, NZ, Western Europe).
  - unprepare 10y ago
    Can you just live there for 2 years with no prior authorization? Dont you need an extended work visa in order to work for that long?
    - yardie 10y ago
      No. You need an immigrant visa. These aren't impossible to get just most Americans don't want to do the research or jump through the hoops to do it. Just like the US, most of Europe does not want new immigrants to be a drain on their social services. If you can find a job before you apply or have a very large bank account it's almost a give they'll give you a visa. A popular option is to get your TOEFL certificate and become an english teacher. Others are get a student visa or marry a EU citizen.

jboles 10y ago

The sense of selfish entitlement shown by these people is simply staggering.

at-fates-hands 10y ago
I have relegated myself to thinking this is another generational shift. I see it across the board with my nephew, his friends and the young people I talk to everyday. At first I really felt like I was just being the "old guy" and thought my parents probably said the same thing about me. Now, I just accept this as the new normal for this generation. To me, it's sad when you see kids with no sense of responsibility and have no drive to earn anything in their life. EDIT: Yes, I know most generations usually give off an air of irresponsibility (baby boomers, hippies, Gen X, Gen Y) but this generation is so inwardly focused and lacks any kind of responsibility, it's borderline alarming.
- jboles 10y ago
  I suspect it is also a cultural (American) thing. I'm 31 and these people are an embarrassment to my generation.
- HelloMcFly 10y ago
  The only difference between this generation and the last is that there is more visibility into creative opportunities you can make to benefit yourself, and a louder platform to stand on once you've made those decisions. Thinking that this is the generation that truly - for real this time - is just so much more flighty and irresponsible than the others is simply narrative fallacy. And in response to your other reply noting this is a "cultural (American)" thing: well yes, because American student debt is not common in other countries. I'd argue it's likely more national than cultural, as it's driven by external context. That's my two-cents, and they come from someone who naysays most of the non-evidenced-based comments spouted about Millenials.

thisone 10y ago

It would have been more interesting to interview those of us who live in Europe and still manage to pay our US student loans. It's a giant pain in the ass, from lenders who have no way of taking payment from anything but a US bank account, lenders who's systems can't handle a foreign address, and lenders who you can only pay via PayPal. I think my favourite was the lender who told me to wire the money to a friend in the US and then they could pay my loan for me...

mywittyname 10y ago

> "The federal government doesn't have really strong tools for collecting debt from people who move overseas," For now...The US government successfully pressured foreign governments into adopting banking reforms that make it a significant burden for an American to control a foreign bank account. So, it's safe to assume that the USG is capable of compelling foreign banks to hand over the assets of persons in default of their DoE loans. Private loans are another matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if private lenders find a way around this. International banks have deep pockets and can probably buy up the debt of these fleers for pennies on the dollar.

joesmo 10y ago

I agree with the student who says it's an act of civil disobedience. Many of these companies should not exist after fucking up our economy, yet it's the students who have to pay them back? That bailout money could have gone to education, yet it went to prop up these criminal entities. And the federal government? Like they give a fuck about anything but money. Please. If they cared about the actual people living in this country, education would be free. Nothing is owed. Not to mention the absurd amount of taxes everyone pays for war and other bullshit that's unnecessary. The people want education, not war, and the government and our society has failed them. I understand there's a lot of stupid people in this country, but there's also a lot of people who want to actually make something of themselves and they shouldn't be held back by the idiots.

draw_down 10y ago

When corporations move across state lines to avoid their tax burden, it's good business. When people move to avoid a debt burden, it's deplorable.

damptowel 10y ago
Laws don't apply to you if you're wealthy enough. It gets especially fun geopolitically. You can force countries to take out new loans to repay older ones, even when they cannot meet their interest payments, paint them in the media as lazy, ignorant and irresponsible. Why invade a country when you have the IMF?